I was reading an article in the Guardian i think it was that said out of the 2 million playing football in the uk, only 120 of them will play in the PL.
Lack of English players in PL teams?
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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Your opinion is respected and courteously disagreed with.
I suppose if we compare EPL with the other leagues, yeah, EPL probably have the least nationally qualified players playing.
Couldn't find any stats to back it up, but 've just found this:
Nov 2017, "England have just 33 Premier League players left to choose from as Gareth Southgate searches for new stars."
Couldn't find any stats to back it up, but 've just found this:
Nov 2017, "England have just 33 Premier League players left to choose from as Gareth Southgate searches for new stars."
even when the composition of these teams were mostly english players, the national team still wasn't doing anything worthwhile
Fair enough. I also feel strong about my stance in this debate, but would be more than ready to read other posters' thoughts and views on the matter.
Doesn't matter how good the next generation of talent are, teams in this country will still prefer to buy from abroad rather than giving their own players the time needed to develop.
That’s pretty shocking
I don't think there is a 'dearth' in quality in terms of English players, I think with so much money on the line (TV) teams are impatient and don't have the trust in young English players.
Look at what Tottenham are doing, they have a bunch of good, young English players playing extremely well because they've nurtured and had faith in them, similar to us with Rashford.
3/4 years ago nobody would have thought the likes of Rashford, Kane, Alli, Trippier etc would turn out to be very good players, world class in regards to Kane.
Look at what Tottenham are doing, they have a bunch of good, young English players playing extremely well because they've nurtured and had faith in them, similar to us with Rashford.
3/4 years ago nobody would have thought the likes of Rashford, Kane, Alli, Trippier etc would turn out to be very good players, world class in regards to Kane.
Even so Levy goes shopping in PSGs bargain bin instead of giving Walker-Peters a chance, a player has always done well for them and is wasting important development years. Aurier isn’t very good either.
Is there any evidence at all how the presence of english footballers in the league have on England "going forward"? Apart from one World Cup when they were hosts, England has never appeared in any major tourament final. Serie A attracted plenty of foreign players in the 90s and early 2000s at its peak popularity. Didn't stop Italy winning the World Cup. Could probably say similar for Spain and Germany where their leagues grew in popularity over the past decade. Having a quota just encourages english footballers to rest further on their laurels if you ask me. They need the competition and its on them to meet the challenge, not just to be given squad places for granted.
Serie A did have quotas on foreign players the era you mentioned. In fact in Italy they are worried about the development of young Italian players right now because of all the foreign imports. Ironically, in light of your point, they are introducing new quotas to try and solve the problem. The Spanish and German leagues give their youngsters more minutes than the PL and so does the Italian league although they are getting worse, hence the soul searching (and crap international team).
They are not getting worse compared to 2010, problem is they are being compared to generations they had in the 80's or 90's, and that will not be solved only by quotas, it comes from youth development, and still there are clubs like Atalanta who make a good job on that department.
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They’re ultimately mediocre journeymen as well.
With the likes of Dele, Stones, Maguire, Vardy etc all coming up the leagues, it proves that there’s an abundance of British talent ready to take the opportunity at the top of English football pyramid. Bournemouth have also established themselves comfortably in mid table primarily using ‘average’ British players. It’s criminal that these bums are being imported, especially in an era where there’s so much young English talent - and they’ll only serve to block their route to the first team.
It looks to be improving slightly, but it’s still way behind the Bundesliga in terms of ethics and advocation of domestic youth integration. Chelsea’s youth, for example, is wasted on them; if Harry Kane was at Chelsea, he’d likely never have developed the momentum he has at Spurs and be Bamford-esque by now. Hyperbolic, but opportunity is key.
That drepende on the willingness to play the youngsters. There is so much money in the PL now that even the smaller clubs can afford big signings and not let their young players play their ways up the pecking order. It happened in Norway, which made a crap national team even worse. Even when there were top talents around, they couldn’t get a sniff due to players bought for immediate impact.
British and Irish players are what make United special, and Ferguson projected that - while City and Chelsea were buying mercenaries, he prioritised acquiring the best young British talents and taking them to the next level (Carrick, Ferdinand, Rooney) and maximising the talents of domestic squad fillers, some of whom even became first choice for periods (Fletcher, O’Shea, Brown, Evans etc). When those players left, they found their ‘natural’ level at mid table clubs, accentuating how special Sir Alex really was.
Even in his final two years, Evans, Welbeck and Cleverley were all fairly prominent players in a team that didn’t finish below anybody on points; the man was a genius. He understood the importance of identity, and created an environment in which British and Irish players could prosper. It’s a shame that he never got to develop Zaha and Powell, because their raw talent was/is obvious.
Taking that into account really puts anything Pep achieves with £50m substitutes for £50m players into perspective.
Even in his final two years, Evans, Welbeck and Cleverley were all fairly prominent players in a team that didn’t finish below anybody on points; the man was a genius. He understood the importance of identity, and created an environment in which British and Irish players could prosper. It’s a shame that he never got to develop Zaha and Powell, because their raw talent was/is obvious.
Taking that into account really puts anything Pep achieves with £50m substitutes for £50m players into perspective.
You are talking from a different football era, we are in 2018 post Bosman, globalization, majority of money coming to your country being from Asians, Americans, Arabs or Russians.
England have dominated age-group football in the last couple of years. If this generation doesn't push on may as well close the academies.
Managers in the Premier League don't give them a chance because they're not ready. However how will they ever be ready if you don't give them a chance. A sterile training environment only goes so far and it must be demoralizing when clubs further block your pathway by signing a player or two who don't have much more upside to offer. What happens is the clubs are committed to playing those signings to justify the money spent. They get every chance to prove themselves while a youth player is lucky to be on the bench.
What you will notice is the young players coming through now are a lot more self-aware. The culture of "yes sir, of course sir" is changing. These guys might play for club rivals but they are friends and want to see their friends succeed. They'll see their mates Sancho and Lookman in Germany playing for two of the top three teams. They'll see players they bettered at youth level making a name for themselves around Europe and they'll want a part of that. I expect to see more English young players taking the route abroad now.
Managers in the Premier League don't give them a chance because they're not ready. However how will they ever be ready if you don't give them a chance. A sterile training environment only goes so far and it must be demoralizing when clubs further block your pathway by signing a player or two who don't have much more upside to offer. What happens is the clubs are committed to playing those signings to justify the money spent. They get every chance to prove themselves while a youth player is lucky to be on the bench.
What you will notice is the young players coming through now are a lot more self-aware. The culture of "yes sir, of course sir" is changing. These guys might play for club rivals but they are friends and want to see their friends succeed. They'll see their mates Sancho and Lookman in Germany playing for two of the top three teams. They'll see players they bettered at youth level making a name for themselves around Europe and they'll want a part of that. I expect to see more English young players taking the route abroad now.
If you are a top 6 manager and you have to win, you will be pressed to win by fans and media, if not they are going to ask for your head, the era of Ferguson 26 years at the same club or Arsene more than 20 is over.
Explain the bolded part. Wtf does that mean?
You would know better than us that is even harder for a manager to keep his job elsewhere in Europe yet they are more willing to play youngsters.
Premier League is more than the top six. The other clubs are just as bad if not worse when it comes to playing their own youth. In addition, who is to say a youth player can't help you win more than a senior player really struggling for form. Youth brings exuberance, energy to go with talent. Chelsea have been the best academy team in England for a number of years but their players don't get chances. When Chelsea were stinking it up in 15/16 couldn't a few young players get a chance? What was there to lose?
In Portugal if you stay more than 1 year at the same club you are successfull, even in the Bundesliga they are always rotating managers
True.
Because the best Academies are from the top 6.
Maybe if we did away with the quota system some of the English guys sitting on benches to make up numbers would be at clubs that would play them.
It's all down to money and value. There is too much money in English football. You have players transferring between championship clubs for ridiculous fees and any English team with a half decent player thinks they should get £30m + for him.
Going back a few years now but players like Jordan Rhodes and Ross McCormack were transferred for crazy fees. You could get a similar profile player from overseas for half the price or less. That's why teams like Watford end up with a complete foreign 11.
The requirement for home grown players also drives the price up for anyone half decent. Rather than provide more opportunities, it just forces big clubs to fill their squad roles up with these players rather than those players getting games at a lower level.
Jonny Evans was recently linked with City and Arsenal. If he wasn't home grown, no top team would come anywhere near him.
The money in English football cannot fail to improve English players long term. Most EPL clubs are now full of top class coaches and although there may be a lower percentage of English players in academies now, those that are there are of a higher quality.
Going back a few years now but players like Jordan Rhodes and Ross McCormack were transferred for crazy fees. You could get a similar profile player from overseas for half the price or less. That's why teams like Watford end up with a complete foreign 11.
The requirement for home grown players also drives the price up for anyone half decent. Rather than provide more opportunities, it just forces big clubs to fill their squad roles up with these players rather than those players getting games at a lower level.
Jonny Evans was recently linked with City and Arsenal. If he wasn't home grown, no top team would come anywhere near him.
The money in English football cannot fail to improve English players long term. Most EPL clubs are now full of top class coaches and although there may be a lower percentage of English players in academies now, those that are there are of a higher quality.
As another non-Englisman, I actually strongly disagree. Having a British core is a key part of Manchester United's identity, and I'd be very sorry to see us lose that.
Agree. The quota system also add homegrown tax into the transfer fee. This led to clubs favor getting players with similar quality from overseas for less money. Only handful of clubs care about other competitions, so the rest only do bare minimum to meet the quota without the need of good squad depth.
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I think OP was referring to the PL as a whole, not just United. Come to think of it, while it might be controversial and I fully understand all the excitement when a lad from the academy makes the first team, it really doesn’t matter to me much as a non-manc. Class of 92 was an outlier and it likely won’t ever happen again. Just like Fergie.
The League is very cutthroat and there aren't a lot of opportunities for younger players to come through. Battling for top 4/title? You need core of quality players in their prime years. Trying to avoid the drop? You need seasoned pros with grit and a match-winner or two. What manager would risk relegation or missing out on whatever targets they're aiming for to blood through some kids? Not many if any would. Furthermore, there's lots of money in the league now and established English players are at a premium price as they've always been, It is cheaper to sign someone on the continent for the most part. I think other younger players are going to have to follow the likes of Sancho and Lookman to other leagues in Europe for development.
It isn't just an issue with players either, you see it with managers too. Instead of taking punts on younger coaches and giving them time, clubs are looking for instant results and success. It's why we constantly see the likes of Pardew, Pulis, Moyes, Allardyce, Hodgson etc. taking turns at every bottom 10 club instead of taking riks. I know we've seen Swansea hire Carvalhal from the championship to good effect thus far but it's not common at all.
In all there is so much money involved now that not meeting targets can be big blow to a teams finances, especially if it happens consecutively. Clubs and Managers aren't looking to take risks anymore, they're all looking for the sure thing that will make them successful and the knock on effect is that we see less young players and coaches coming through in England.
It isn't just an issue with players either, you see it with managers too. Instead of taking punts on younger coaches and giving them time, clubs are looking for instant results and success. It's why we constantly see the likes of Pardew, Pulis, Moyes, Allardyce, Hodgson etc. taking turns at every bottom 10 club instead of taking riks. I know we've seen Swansea hire Carvalhal from the championship to good effect thus far but it's not common at all.
In all there is so much money involved now that not meeting targets can be big blow to a teams finances, especially if it happens consecutively. Clubs and Managers aren't looking to take risks anymore, they're all looking for the sure thing that will make them successful and the knock on effect is that we see less young players and coaches coming through in England.
Oh no I agree, and I think United still has a good British core (certainly compared to many other premier league teams). It's interesting that you say that though; I have definitely bought into our academy and get excited anytime one of our youngsters get a first team chance. Not sure why the romance of the Class of 92, or for that matter the Busby Babes (or for that matter, all the solid squad players that have come from our academy and done a good job, like Fletcher, Evans, Wes Brown, O'Shea et al) hasn't really captured your imagination, but fair enough if it hasn't, not going to tell you what to think.
Whether :
A. Good players can't get a game time
B. Shit players that aren't getting game time
If it's A then yes limitations and quota system might help. If it's B then limitations and quota system will only magnify the problem and becoming a collective deterent to the epl. We will be seeing the likes of cleverly playing at United in place of pogba because of that. Probably an exaggeration but sub par players will take the place of better player. At best the bench will be filled with quota filler.
The difference between cleverly and pogba doesn't lie on how many games they have on professional level imho, but more on talent (not much we can do) and training at the early ages (something that can be improved).
I'd rather the quota and limitations are set on youth level. Probably in some sort of minimum game time and maximum squad number to avoid bloating out the youth academy with filler players. Less but better
A. Good players can't get a game time
B. Shit players that aren't getting game time
If it's A then yes limitations and quota system might help. If it's B then limitations and quota system will only magnify the problem and becoming a collective deterent to the epl. We will be seeing the likes of cleverly playing at United in place of pogba because of that. Probably an exaggeration but sub par players will take the place of better player. At best the bench will be filled with quota filler.
The difference between cleverly and pogba doesn't lie on how many games they have on professional level imho, but more on talent (not much we can do) and training at the early ages (something that can be improved).
I'd rather the quota and limitations are set on youth level. Probably in some sort of minimum game time and maximum squad number to avoid bloating out the youth academy with filler players. Less but better
I think it would be a good idea to have the whole squad available on the bench. That way a manager doesn't have to only pick his strongest 7 players to be substitutes, and if they find themselves in a good position in a match they could give a youngster some PL minutes. If they show that they're capable then it opens the door for them to move up the pecking order. I know a lot of the academy's are full of foreign players so it won't be an instant solution but I think it would go some way to contributing towards a greater number of English players getting a chance at the highest level, especially as the quality of the young English players coming through improves.
Chalobah, Cleverley and Hughes all played frequently for Watford before injuries.
Even when they did have several they still didn't win anything. There is a lot of young talant about at the minute but they are mostly at the bigger sides and either only get loan moves or small cameo's.
I'd like this to happen. I genuinely can't see why not either. Don't Serie A do it?