Let's face it, even if we had the players, we simply lack the mental toughness

[fastwalker]

So we are back to reality. The sugar high following the Liverpool, Norwich and Chelsea results has worn off and now we are back to reality. Defeat at Bournemouth is painful for a number of reasons. Man for man we are a better side than Bournemouth home or away. That was a game that we should have won had we been more clinical and turned our greater possession into actual opportunities, we probably would have done so.

But the problems facing United so much more than that.

Today both Manchester City and Liverpool produced come from behind fight backs to beat lesser opposition in ways that reveal the superior winning mentality of both sides. Liverpool in particular simply refuse to lie down. Once upon a time that used to be United, but now we seem to lack the balls of steel that underpin a winning mentality. I looked at the United side today and I could not see a single leader to inspire and drive the team forward. Then I looked at the bench and saw a manager devoid of the ideas to inspire his players. At Liverpool and City there are leaders all over the place Robertson, Henderson, Van Dijk, Wijnaldun, Aguero, De Bruyne, Walker and more. On the bench they both City and Liverpool have so-called 'mentality giants' as their managers. What do United have when the chips are down? You tell me,

See how United respond when we go a goal down then see how City and Liverpool respond. Big name buys will not by themselves solve United's problem, because you cannot buy the mentality to win. You develop it when every single man in the team refuses to lose.


Any thoughts?

 

[adexkola]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

 

[liamp]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

God, amen to this.

 

[BigBebe]

Totally agree with you @fastwalker

 

[VeevaVee]

Needing the right mentality as well as quality has been well talked about for a few years now.

 

[fastwalker]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

Do you know anything at all about brain surgery? I mean do you know anything at all about it?

But if someone went into surgery for a brain op and came out with their brans stapled to their groin, would you need to be a brain surgeon to work out that the operation had been a complete failure? It is fairly clear for anyone to see that there is a completely different level of mental resilience at City and Liverpool than at United. They seem to be able to play below par and still win. We seem to struggle to do that.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Fans as well. Couldn't handle Mourinho. Heck, if Sir Alex walked back into the club you'd expect the same frail babies to cry out loud and fall apart.

 

[SirAF]

Do you know anything at all about brain surgery? I mean do you know anything at all about it?

But if someone went into surgery for a brain op and came out with their brans stapled to their groin, would you need to be a brain surgeon to work out that the operation had been a complete failure? It is fairly clear for anyone to see that there is a completely different level of mental resilience at City and Liverpool than at United. They seem to be able to play below par and still win. We seem to struggle to do that.

This.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

I think United lack intelligence more. They've no idea what to do except make it up as they go along, they had a free kick but decided to kick it straight away. Ok? What was the plan there? What was supposed to happen? A miracle? Youngs crossing was crap. Wide open players being ignored or players asking for the ball also being ignored. They keep second guessing every moment. It looks like they don't even trust eachother with the ball. Keep Constantly shooting even though, Bournemouth keep blocking the shot, so bloody try a different method to make the shot. Its the exact same thing every match. It's like they just can't and will never learn. I'm definetly not questioning their mental toughness, they can fight like hell but they can't fight worth the s**t.

 

[MackRobinson]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

/thread

 

[El Zoido]

It’s not so much mental toughness as it is just not having the capability to break teams down. We struggle to score when it’s 0-0, as soon as we go a goal down all a team has to do is play a flat back four and have the two midfield players track left and right as we pass it sideways. We don’t have any ideas. We could be the most mentally strong team in existence but we don’t have a clue how to break down a basic defence.

 

[Møllemanden]

Man for man we are a better side than Bournemouth home or away.

Any thoughts?

Yes. I have a thought or two.

It's clear to everyone that we have a couple of players who are better than the general standard in the PL. But to be honest, I think it's BS to say that we're better man for man. The profile of our players might be different to Bournemouths, but looking at the performances, I don't think our players are superior. If they're as good as you want to think, then we wouldn't be struggling to get into the top half of the Premier League. And please, don't give me any crap about Ole. Both the players and the manager is to blame. None of our previous managers were able to make them shine either.

 

[cyberman]

The amount of head shaking our players do when a decision goes against us is staggering. They just mentally give up as if its oh well, here we go again

 

[adexkola]

Do you know anything at all about brain surgery? I mean do you know anything at all about it?

But if someone went into surgery for a brain op and came out with their brans stapled to their groin, would you need to be a brain surgeon to work out that the operation had been a complete failure? It is fairly clear for anyone to see that there is a completely different level of mental resilience at City and Liverpool than at United. They seem to be able to play below par and still win. We seem to struggle to do that.

I'll explain.

It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to just feature at this level, to be part of the 0.012% (as Rashford calls it). City and Liverpool didn't outwill the ball into the net, they put in great amounts of effort and they had the quality (player/coaching) to make the effort count for something. I didn't see enough to question our effort... The quality from a coaching or player perspective just wasn't there.

 

[El K2k]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

Close the Forum! We have the ultimate answer for everything written in the forum.

 

[fastwalker]

Yes. I have a thought or two.

It's clear to everyone that we have a couple of players who are better than the general standard in the PL. But to be honest, I think it's BS to say that we're better man for man. The profile of our players might be different to Bournemouths, but looking at the performances, I don't think our players are superior. If they're as good as you want to think, then we wouldn't be struggling to get into the top half of the Premier League. And please, don't give me any crap about Ole. Both the players and the manager is to blame. None of our previous managers were able to make them shine either.

I think you make some interesting points, but I think that you are fundamentally confusing performance with potential. There is no doubt in my mind that not only is United man for man better than Bournemouth but that United as a side should be at least in the top six. Our players have simply failed to perform to their potential and our manager, but for a few occasions this season has singular failed to get them to. Look at how Rashford played at Liverpool, Norwich and Chelsea. If a player like that played to his potential 80% of the time, he could be a 20 goal a season striker instead of someone known much more for his lack of consistency.

Even top managers like Klopp have had to take sows ears and turn them into silk purses. Look at Henderson, Robertson, Milner, Matip. These are players that are performing to their fullest potential? How many of them were world class when Klopp bought them? If only our players performed to their physical and mental potential the on-pitch performances would be much better.

 

[fastwalker]

I'll explain.

It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to just feature at this level, to be part of the 0.012% (as Rashford calls it). City and Liverpool didn't outwill the ball into the net, they put in great amounts of effort and they had the quality (player/coaching) to make the effort count for something. I didn't see enough to question our effort... The quality from a coaching or player perspective just wasn't there.

I think it was both effort and mental strengths. Even Klopp himself acknowledges that, so why should I disbelieve him? The point is that you seemed to be suggesting that just because I am not a footballer I am not qualified to comment on the success mentality as a performance driver, even when it is plain for all to see watching Liverpool and City come back to win from losing positions.

 

[Bobcat]

Never mind the mentality the quality isn't there - a lot of them are just shit.

-------------DDG-------------
AWB---Maguire--???---????
-----McTomminay---???-----
James---????-------Rashford
------------Martial-----------

Among our starters today, these are the only ones that are top 4 quality. And even then its not that great. DDG has not been himself for about a year now, McTomminay has a great attitude, but right now he should be a squad option at best. Rashford and Martial are good on their day, but are super inconsistent. James is just a kid, Maguire has been pretty average.

The only player that has been consistently great is AWB

 

[redIndianDevil]

So we are back to reality. The sugar high following the Liverpool, Norwich and Chelsea results has worn off and now we are back to reality. Defeat at Bournemouth is painful for a number of reasons. Man for man we are a better side than Bournemouth home or away. That was a game that we should have won had we been more clinical and turned our greater possession into actual opportunities, we probably would have done so.

But the problems facing United so much more than that.

Today both Manchester City and Liverpool produced come from behind fight backs to beat lesser opposition in ways that reveal the superior winning mentality of both sides. Liverpool in particular simply refuse to lie down. Once upon a time that used to be United, but now we seem to lack the balls of steel that underpin a winning mentality. I looked at the United side today and I could not see a single leader to inspire and drive the team forward. Then I looked at the bench and saw a manager devoid of the ideas to inspire his players. At Liverpool and City there are leaders all over the place Robertson, Henderson, Van Dijk, Wijnaldun, Aguero, De Bruyne, Walker and more. On the bench they both City and Liverpool have so-called 'mentality giants' as their managers. What do United have when the chips are down? You tell me,

See how United respond when we go a goal down then see how City and Liverpool respond. Big name buys will not by themselves solve United's problem, because you cannot buy the mentality to win. You develop it when every single man in the team refuses to lose.


Any thoughts?

Well done on noting the supposed "mental toughness" of City and Liverpool. Why didn't you notice the men in the sidelines of those teams?It's not a coincidence that those two clubs have the best coaches in the world, those two coaches actually train their players to breakdown resolute opposition through a combination of tactics and training.

All the City/Liverpool players you listed are highly skilled and are every aspect of their game is coached to maximize the team output by their world class coaches, every aspect of their game is micromanaged and coached by Guardiola and Klopp. If we had Robertson, he'd just be banging in aimless crosses into the box or would not even venture that forward for us because we simply do not press in an organized way and he'd get caught out if he played like he does at Liverpool.

My point is that every thing is down to coaching, I'm prepared to bet my house that if we had Klopp and Liverpool had Solksjaer with the same squad, we'd be much better off than them.

There is no point in talking about bullshit excuses like mentality when technically and tactically we so far behind. It's completely pathetic that an absolute clueless guy like OGS is being given so much time. He's worse than Moyes.

 

[Treble]

It's naive to treat mental toughness as an internal quality of humans independent of the context of their life. The atmosphere at the club is decisive whether the players will show resilience or weakness. Most players are just normal professionals, they thrive under some conditions and struggle under other conditions.

 

[hobbers]

Even if we had the players and the mental toughness, we're still stuck with a manager who doesn't even know the basics.

 

[Møllemanden]

@fastwalker we have different views about the quality of our players, and that's okay. Speaking of mental strength, I think it's hard to assess the mental strenght of our younger players. They don't really have proper rolemodels in the team to show the way. Pogba is top quality at times, but his mental attributes are horrible. Last seasons game away to Wolves was an abomination. Terrible attitude.

@Bobcat you are spot on. There are very few players in our squad that are top four material. Also, if you look at the squad depth... It's non existing.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

We might as well not talk about anything and just write "come on United".

We are in a meltdown since the beginning of last season, the whole fanbase is. What is worse is the club gives no indication of trying to solve that problem and show to all of us that we have a proper plan for the future.

 

[fastwalker]

Well done on noting the supposed "mental toughness" of City and Liverpool. Why didn't you notice the men in the sidelines of those teams?It's not a coincidence that those two clubs have the best coaches in the world, those two coaches actually train their players to breakdown resolute opposition through a combination of tactics and training.

All the City/Liverpool players you listed are highly skilled and are every aspect of their game is coached to maximize the team output by their world class coaches, every aspect of their game is micromanaged and coached by Guardiola and Klopp. If we had Robertson, he'd just be banging in aimless crosses into the box or would not even venture that forward for us because we simply do not press in an organized way and he'd get caught out if he played like he does at Liverpool.

My point is that every thing is down to coaching, I'm prepared to bet my house that if we had Klopp and Liverpool had Solksjaer with the same squad, we'd be much better off than them.

There is no point in talking about bullshit excuses like mentality when technically and tactically we so far behind. It's completely pathetic that an absolute clueless guy like OGS is being given so much time. He's worse than Moyes.

Did you actually read my OP? You said I did not mention the coaches? Did you read the OP? Here, I have culled the relevant bit you missed out when you constructed your original response without fully reading the OP.

"On the bench they both City and Liverpool have so-called 'mentality giants' as their managers."

Yea, I think you missed that bit!

 

[Obiorahking_]

Never mind the mentality the quality isn't there - a lot of them are just shit.

-------------DDG-------------
AWB---Maguire--???---????
-----McTomminay---???-----
James---????-------Rashford
------------Martial-----------

Among our starters today, these are the only ones that are top 4 quality. And even then its not that great. DDG has not been himself for about a year now, McTomminay has a great attitude, but right now he should be a squad option at best. Rashford and Martial are good on their day, but are super inconsistent. James is just a kid, Maguire has been pretty average.

The only player that has been consistently great is AWB

Mctominay isn't starting caliber(especially in a 4231) yet nor is James if we are being honest. We need arguably 6 starting caliber players and quite a couple of backups considering that some players can't even cut it on the bench. Our issue at the moment is quality above everything else and then a manager who dosen't maximize what he has.

 

[fastwalker]

@fastwalker we have different views about the quality of our players, and that's okay. Speaking of mental strength, I think it's hard to assess the mental strenght of our younger players. They don't really have proper rolemodels in the team to show the way. Pogba is top quality at times, but his mental attributes are horrible. Last seasons game away to Wolves was an abomination. Terrible attitude.

@Bobcat you are spot on. There are very few players in our squad that are top four material. Also, if you look at the squad depth... It's non existing.

But what is the true measure of quality? Is it the player you buy off the shelf who has been there, seen it and done it or is it the player whose potential is coaxed out of him and who becomes the best that he can possibly be in a system that fully exploits his talents?

I mean seriously, was Van Dijk the best centre back in the world before he joined Liverpool? Did anybody come in for Andy Roberston when Hull gave him away for £8m (or wherever they got him from)? Or Wijnaldum when he was relegated with Newcastle. For me quality is not a De Bruyne or some other player who is ready to slot in to your first 11. Quality is what can be developed over time through effective coaching, tactical awareness and leadership development. Yes there is quality to be developed in that United squad. There is no doubt in my mind about that. But I also accept that there are players who need to be let go.

 

[flappyjay]

Fred and mctominay's inability to find their team mates with a pass today is all down to mentality. I would have never guessed that. I thought it was down to lack of ability

 

[JPRouve]

I would say that mentality is the only thing that we have in abundance in our starting eleven. What we lack is superior athletes, technicians and creativity.

 

[Sara125]

Do you know anything at all about brain surgery? I mean do you know anything at all about it?

But if someone went into surgery for a brain op and came out with their brans stapled to their groin, would you need to be a brain surgeon to work out that the operation had been a complete failure? It is fairly clear for anyone to see that there is a completely different level of mental resilience at City and Liverpool than at United. They seem to be able to play below par and still win. We seem to struggle to do that.

The imagery of this is hilarious imagine having your brain where your willy is supposed to be. Takes the phrase ‘thinking with your dick’ to a whole new level

 

[Møllemanden]

Yes there is quality to be developed in that United squad. There is no doubt in my mind about that. But I also accept that there are players who need to be let go.

There are quality players to be developed, yes. But there sure as hell is a lot of deadweight too. Everyone would like another class of 92, but that's not in the cards right now. We need to mix it up. I believe that the best scenario for our young players, is to play alongside experienced professionals. And sometimes you need to buy those kind of players. Like RIGHT NOW. But yeah... It's way cooler having top class players who has been developed by the club. No doubt about it.

 

[croadyman]

Yeah the minute we go behind down go the heads eeyore style. There is just no belief we can even get a point out of a losing situation let alone a win.

 

[adexkola]

I think it was both effort and mental strengths. Even Klopp himself acknowledges that, so why should I disbelieve him? The point is that you seemed to be suggesting that just because I am not a footballer I am not qualified to comment on the success mentality as a performance driver, even when it is plain for all to see watching Liverpool and City come back to win from losing positions.

Don't take it too seriously, I have a warm couch too

I'm not saying you can't comment, I'm saying that as fans we easily throw out labels of weak mentality at players who have proven their mentality beyond doubt, just because they didn't get the winning goal.

 

[buckooo1978]

Fans sitting in warm couches speak too much about mentality of professional players

and a few observations @fastwalker

the mentality we had for all those years and City/Liverpool have presently is something that is developed over a period of time collectively in teams and individually in players

City and Liverpool are serial game winners. That breeds that confidence. City in particular have incredibly talented attackers who've been there and done that and but both wont panic if they are running out. They are experienced high quality players

on the other hand I'm watching today and thinking how can Ole change this? the game too fast for Mata so I thought fire on Williams for Young and Greenwood for Pereira

hardly bringing on experienced talent wheras City can afford to leave Mahrez who'd walk into our side on the bench

It's unfair to Ole given the lack of options he has. If he is backed in the market with top quality attacking talent then you will.see an improved mentality with more gifted players. The players we rely on are the likes of James, Martial and Rashford. Pogba has been missing for ages.

That's an embarrassing amount of quality in attack compared to City and Liverpool especially when you compare the experience of players like ours with Silvas, De Bruyne, Salah, Mane, Sterling, Aguero, Mahrez.... and that's before you consider the attacking quality across the rest of their sides

 

[fps]

At the very least I did expect the back line to be conceding fewer goals than this. Seems the oppo are good for a goal a game minimum.

 

[Ziggy Starduster]

I think it’s more about confidence and not fully buying into a system that has zero success in top flight football.
Being asked to play a way by a manager who has relegation on his CV is hardly inspiring.
Look at Maguire recently - looks a shadow of the guy who joined in the summer. He knows he’s fecked up. Ditto DDG after signing a contact after a clever sales pitch.

 

[fastwalker]

There are quality players to be developed, yes. But there sure as hell is a lot of deadweight too. Everyone would like another class of 92, but that's not in the cards right now. We need to mix it up. I believe that the best scenario for our young players, is to play alongside experienced professionals. And sometimes you need to buy those kind of players. Like RIGHT NOW. But yeah... It's way cooler having top class players who has been developed by the club. No doubt about it.

I think we can shake hands on this.

 

[Hughie77]

It's not the mentality of the players, it's quality, at the moment we do not have enough quality, to break defensive teams down. The goal we conceded today was a poor goal to give away.

On top of that the quality needed to get an equaliser is not there, it wasn't until around 80 mins we looked like getting one! That's the problem. I feel it's all about the moments in games we are top we dont score, then the opposition grow into the games and punish our poor quality in the games. Newcastle away 0-1 no quality to get a goal, Same as today, were not being blown away by teams, far from it, were just not doing enough especially against teams we would normally beat, to score in the moments when we should.

The difference between City , pool is just that the moments they create they score, that breeds confidence it's shows in them , and they keep going until they get What there quality deserves. Ie UTD under SAF for years how many times did they believe in there own qualities and get results sometimes there overall play in games deserved. Until UTD get Qulaity players who believe they can win games playing ugly, it's going to be just another team of players. Mentality they got quality in areas of the pitch they have not.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Did you actually read my OP? You said I did not mention the coaches? Did you read the OP? Here, I have culled the relevant bit you missed out when you constructed your original response without fully reading the OP.

"On the bench they both City and Liverpool have so-called 'mentality giants' as their managers."

Yea, I think you missed that bit!

What the hell is a "mentality giant"? There is no such thing, you are just making it up. Those two coaches are known for their technical and tactical understanding of the game and are highly capable of coaching a side. They won't be talking about mentality or some self help crap, they will be working with their players on tactics.

Mentality alone is not going to get you anywhere, first you need to be technically strong. For example if Liverpool fail to win the title this year(without some major injury crisis), then Klopp can talk of mental fragility in his players because technically he had done all that he could as a manager. But for us we are going nowhere technically, first we have fix that.

 

[fastwalker]

What the hell is a "mentality giant"? There is no such thing, you are just making it up. Those two coaches are known for their technical and tactical understanding of the game and are highly capable of coaching a side. They won't be talking about mentality or some self help crap, they will be working with their players on tactics.

Mentality alone is not going to get you anywhere, first you need to be technically strong. For example if Liverpool fail to win the title this year(without some major injury crisis), then Klopp can talk of mental fragility in his players because technically he had done all that he could as a manager. But for us we are going nowhere technically, first we have fix that.

Me, made it up? Really? Is that what you think? So you are telling me that you not heard Jurgen Klopp use the term mentality giants? You need to get out more mate. This is the problem with United, we still think that football world revolves around us. All the while elite coaches are using a wider range of tools and techniques to eke an extra few per cent of performance from their players.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

So what was the attacking plan today then?