There is clearly a lack of depth in this squad and we are at least 6 to 7 players short of free flowing attacking football we want to play week in week out. I think the management knows it, former players know it as it was pointed out by Giggs himself and fans know that too... for whatever reason we didn't replace Lukaku and Herrera during summer and it is costing us big time. We clearly needed to make three more signings during summer if we wanted to finish in top 4.
Let's face it, even if we had the players, we simply lack the mental toughness
- Thread starter fastwalker
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It comes down to the manager hes terrible and should have never gotten the job..
The only reason form dipped under jose is because he attacked the players and lost them.. team was good... but i mean.. we also sold our best goal scorer because some morons thought he wasnt good enough. 9 goals in 11 games at inter by the way.
The only reason form dipped under jose is because he attacked the players and lost them.. team was good... but i mean.. we also sold our best goal scorer because some morons thought he wasnt good enough. 9 goals in 11 games at inter by the way.
I agree. Mental strength is what differentiates winners from losers. It builds momentum for months, years, at a time, creates consistency, improves morale.
Its why we have cycles in sport where individuals, teams can dominate for long periods.
Its why we have cycles in sport where individuals, teams can dominate for long periods.
Great post.
If we "would have the players", would't they be the ones with the right mental toughness?
The question doesn't have a lot of sense.
The question doesn't have a lot of sense.
Klopp would talk about mentality because these are the silly questions he gets from the journos, have you ever seen journos/pundits asking serious technical questions to managers? It's always about mentality, passion or some random crap.
Even if Klopp thinks it's all mentality, he has ingrained the technical aspects of his style of football into his squad, IMO there is no point in talking about mentality when technically and tactically we are not good enough, we can have all the supposed "leaders" in our squad and still be crap if we lack in tactics, another example take a look at Bonucci, while he was at Juventus, he was a great player, a "leader" for you, he went to Milan and became crap because Milan tactically/technically are far behind Juventus and it showed in Bonucci's performance, now that he is back in Juventus he has again become a "leader".
These are young players, building their mental toughness.
They (Board and Ole) took the risks going forward with young squad, this is the result.
Is it a surprise? No. But we can't judge all of them to have minimal mental toughness, they are professional footballers, devoting all their time to be a footballer.
Mental toughness comes from winning, winning comes from form, form comes from confidence, and confidence comes from trust. Football isn't as simple as saying because of they are weak mentally, they won't win anything.
Let's get behind these kids, so they could develop in less toxic environment.
They (Board and Ole) took the risks going forward with young squad, this is the result.
Is it a surprise? No. But we can't judge all of them to have minimal mental toughness, they are professional footballers, devoting all their time to be a footballer.
Mental toughness comes from winning, winning comes from form, form comes from confidence, and confidence comes from trust. Football isn't as simple as saying because of they are weak mentally, they won't win anything.
Let's get behind these kids, so they could develop in less toxic environment.
I don't think it is due to a 'fragile mentality' more so than a genuine lack of ability. I look at Rashford, for example, and I don't think he would start in any of our title winning squads of years past and I think he would only be a squad option, but he carried the team on his back when we won the Europa in 2017 after Zlatan went down. That to me signals a tougher mentality. The state we are in is due to lack of proper coaching coupled with a very thin squad because the people at power thought that "alright, we don't need to replace any our attacking players, the ones present can do the job". The whole club has been mismanaged.
I see Ole getting the sack at the end of this month or early December.
I see Ole getting the sack at the end of this month or early December.
Completely disagree. City and Liverpool have this so called "mental toughness" i.e the ability to turn results around largely due to their (and everybody else's) understand that they have the quality - both individual and collectively - to keep create chances. Whereas when you don't tend to create chances easily, naturally it's a deflating feeling to be a goal down against two banks of 4.
It's the same across the board with weak and strong teams, really. Of course the managers personality does have an impact. However the quality of the football team itself (where the manager also obviously plays a part) is the defining factor.
You think Wijnaldum in our team wouldn't appear mentally weak to the caf? As always, let's focus on the real problems. It's not that Pogba posts on Instagram. It's not that Martial sulks or Rashford thinks he's the next Ronaldo. It's not that we have a true leader like Terry or Keane. It's that as a football team, we aren't run/managed well. Things like heads dropping and confidence draining when up against it , is just a by-product.
It's the same across the board with weak and strong teams, really. Of course the managers personality does have an impact. However the quality of the football team itself (where the manager also obviously plays a part) is the defining factor.
You think Wijnaldum in our team wouldn't appear mentally weak to the caf? As always, let's focus on the real problems. It's not that Pogba posts on Instagram. It's not that Martial sulks or Rashford thinks he's the next Ronaldo. It's not that we have a true leader like Terry or Keane. It's that as a football team, we aren't run/managed well. Things like heads dropping and confidence draining when up against it , is just a by-product.
A managers job to instill that actually
The winning mentality is obviously not there but the no 1 issue is that there is no quality especially in midfield. Without quality Liverpool & City won't make the come back. Liverpool was also struggling especially against the lesser team a few years ago in Klopp's first & second seasons due to lack quality as well.
I think in term of mental toughness we do have some in our XI today, just no quality especially in the final third. Even with the right mentality but no real quality is not right. It's like expecting a project manager who doesn't have an engineering degree to do engineering job.
I think in term of mental toughness we do have some in our XI today, just no quality especially in the final third. Even with the right mentality but no real quality is not right. It's like expecting a project manager who doesn't have an engineering degree to do engineering job.
United have one of the youngest starting 11s in the league. They also lack consistency and a hard nosed winning mentality. It's not a coincidence.
If the Class of 92 came into this squad with De Gea instead of Schmeichel, Lindelof/Maguire instead of Bruce/Pallister, Young instead of Irwin, Pogba instead of Keane and Martial instead of Cantona, they would have struggled with consistency too.
This United squad lacks a core group of senior pros that keeps standards high and drives winning mentality. By signing such young players, it's going to take years to establish that.
If the Class of 92 came into this squad with De Gea instead of Schmeichel, Lindelof/Maguire instead of Bruce/Pallister, Young instead of Irwin, Pogba instead of Keane and Martial instead of Cantona, they would have struggled with consistency too.
This United squad lacks a core group of senior pros that keeps standards high and drives winning mentality. By signing such young players, it's going to take years to establish that.
We do lack mental toughness. But I don't believe man for man we are better than Bournemouth. That is the real problem.
Of course we're better than Bournemouth. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Look at their 11 or squad. Look at where we and they've finished over the last 3 years. FFS.
Hard to have mental toughness when you look around our team and realise the quality is not there. Imagine being 1-0 down then looking over at Lingard to turn it around.
Last 3 years are irrelevant. We've lost 4 internationals last season alone.
Off the top of my head - Wilson, Fraser and King could start for us. Their other players, on average, are too close in quality to ours to claim any significant advantage for United.
Did we look better than Bournemouth to you? You can't just believe it was a freak result?
But in the context of relativity, the % needed to get 'there' bears no meaning as it's the bar and from there the percentages reduce further and further where the proverbial wheat is separated from the proverbial chaff - some manage to tread water in the pool of premier league football, others become Olympians relative to them, and further still, the likes of a C.Ronaldo or Roy Keane go on to be all-time revered for their mentality and obsession with self-improvement.
It actually doesn't matter the sport, there are clear and marked distinctions between so-called peers in terms of mental fortitude and how much more they can dig when the chips are down.
I don't think it matters what the actual quality of any team at any level is, the distinction between triers and not is always, always apparent.
I believe if we fought tooth and nail for everything and came up short, fans at large would be more forgiving and empathetic than when they see the collective dropping of heads we are accustomed to and have now become accepting of.
We are disastrously poorly coached, and that exacerbates the lack of belief, but how many players in this squad have the wherewithal within themselves to fight, defiantly against the tide? Forget ability, just on pure mental obdurate resilience, how many at the club have the fire in their belly and the pride associative of Manchester United? It's actually a surprise these days when we do not yield once a game is obumbrated and becomes a genuine pull-your-sleeves up struggle - that used to be synonymous with United and practically a lifeblood of our teams.
The 60's, 70's and 80's saw us in mid-ish table mediocrity for the majority of it, but rarely would the teams be said to lack conviction and mental strength. Quality? Sure, but mental weakness? That is generally foreign to a club like Manchester United whilst the tag has tended to sit easily with teams like Spurs and the past it Wenger Arsenal.
Let's face it, if there were two separate tabulations, one for points and the other for conviction of purpose, we'd be close to the bottom of the latter in the entire league, too, where in the past, any iteration of United, be they serial winners or the sides who were not successful, would comfortably sit in the top 4 for the league at all times.
We lose to Palace, west ham, newcasle, bournemouth, we cant beat southhampton and the wolves, despite having better individual players.
This was no bad luck, this was bad coaching.
Face it, we have some big problems and one of them is OGS.
Irrelevant becuase it doesn't suit your opinion. Past performance is the best measure of quality. We lost Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku, Smalling and Sanchez. Not even worth counting Sanchez as he was abysmal. Smalling wasn't getting into our team either.
And we've also added Maguire (as per Jose and Ole better than anybody we used to have), AWB (miles better than what we used to have) and James (a very good player and a huge upgrade on Sanchez). And Mctominay has improved hugely as well. Young super talented Greenwood has also been added and has scored two good goals when given actual chances.
So our squad isnt very different really to the team that finished far higher than anything Bournemouth ever did. The glaring difference being Lukaku due to our fantastic managers decision making.
But regardless our team is much better than Bournemouths. Both Rashford and Martial would get into their team. As would DDG, Lindelof, AWB, Shaw, Pogba etc in fact forget this. Just 1-2 of their players are getting into ours.
As for the line "do we look better than Bournemouth?". Probably but they have a much better manager than we do and hence the difference isn't as visible as it should be. Howe is probably the best English manager around and one of the best young ones in the PL.
This. Couch potatoes talking about professional players mentality, completely oblivious to the fact that it takes a crapload of mental toughness to become a professional footballer in the first place, with the amount of sacrifice needed.
Irrelevant because we have a very different squad and different manager compared to 3 years ago. Of course the manager is a factor too.
Our squad is so weak in midfield and missing a striker. As I said - Fraser, King and Wilson would improve our first team.
Those are key areas in which the Bournemouth team are better than us.
Our first team is not significantly better than Bournemouth. If we played them every week it might be 50/50 at best. Please look at the other teams that have beaten us this season alone and then compare.
Okay, let's take a look at some other team shall We?
The captain of the ship must be not a clueless one or the ship will sink. Simple.
- Liverpool used to be a laughing stock, even in their (previous) best season They slipped and at that point everyone thought "there's no way these bunch of players will ever win anything. Liverpool simply has the mentality of a bitter delusional loser". Klopp came in and several seasons later? Champions League trophy
- Spurs used to be not only a bottler but also only a team who hovered around 4th and below. If you told non Spurs fan back then how They're going to qualify for CL and get into quarter final, you'll be laughed at. Spurs were simply a loser club where 4th place was seen as a massive success. Poch came in and several seasons later? not finishing 4th is seen as a total failure, not playing good football is seen as a failure and They were last year's CL finalist. Ironically, fighting against another loser club (in the past) in the final.
- Leicester used to be a small club. When They get into Premier League it was a massive achievement, nobody knew who the players were. Ranieri managed them, gave the players what They wanted, getting them to perform consistently and magnificently throughout the season and They won the Premier League, making history.
The captain of the ship must be not a clueless one or the ship will sink. Simple.
Absolutely, being strong comes from knowing what you’re doing and being able to do it well, it is the technical and tactical coaching which breeds confidence which then snowballs when it’s clear progress is being made.
There's a reason why Jose wanted Martial, Shaw and Pogba out of the club. He did the shite thing by throwing them under the bus but he was right about them.
Compare the wonderful speech by Siya Kolisi yesterday to the garbage spouted on social media by Rashford, Lingard and Pogba and the rest.
The difference between winners and losers is mentality.
The difference between winners and losers is mentality.
How is it two from that selection aren't even playing right now and the other is just coming back from injury and yet you're taking pot shots at them?
Mentality giant my arse!
Basically confidence is a major part of team sport. When you have 11 players that are a lot better than the opposition 11 players then on average you will win more. This builds confidence. All teams make effort until the last second of the game it is just a matter of what the effort is trying to achieve. If you have a combination of better players that the opposition, usually win, confident then you will try to get the equaliser or winner and this will be obvious as you will generally have the ball more. If you have decent and ok players that aren’t much better than the opposition, a young team learning, not always winning and low on confidence then the effort won’t be as obvious or successful. Yes you can gain percentages here and there but confidence will be more influential.
Basically confidence is a major part of team sport. When you have 11 players that are a lot better than the opposition 11 players then on average you will win more. This builds confidence. All teams make effort until the last second of the game it is just a matter of what the effort is trying to achieve. If you have a combination of better players that the opposition, usually win, confident then you will try to get the equaliser or winner and this will be obvious as you will generally have the ball more. If you have decent and ok players that aren’t much better than the opposition, a young team learning, not always winning and low on confidence then the effort won’t be as obvious or successful. Yes you can gain percentages here and there but confidence will be more influential.
Mourinho wasn't right at all, he had fallen behind the times and instead of introspecting and transforming himself, he chose to be a cnut and pointed fingers at anything and threw everyone under the bus to protect himself.
I do think the OP is spot on with the premise of his argument. We lack the proper leader types who can take games by the scruff of their necks (cliche, I know) and influence the team to bounce from setbacks as shown by our struggle to recover from poor periods of form, for example. Maybe Pogba fulfills that criteria, if that.
There’s a reason why some think Zlatan would be worth having back just for the influence in the dressing room.
There’s a reason why some think Zlatan would be worth having back just for the influence in the dressing room.
Disagree. It felt like a lack of energy caused by that tough game on Chelsea. If we had 3-4 more quality players - and a few of the other players fit, we could have changed 2-3 players more - and probably would have won. And you can't really compare City at home to a team that lost 0-9 about 2 weeks ago to a well-organized Bournemouth side at home.
And we created enough chances in the last 10 minutes to at least draw the game - we simply aren't good enough....yet
Hahha. True. Players are shit, Manager is shit. Has nothing to do with mentality.
Look we lost to Bournemouth away in 1984 and all. Two years later Fergie joined and the rest was all gravy...baby. Don't panic.
Yep. Well said. No balls.
There is too many players not showing up in games and this is a matter that the coaches have to address. You can have 2/3 players having an off day, but we have 7/8 at a time. You can change 2/3 but you cannot change 7/8 during a game.
We need players who can demand performances from others on the field, but a manager needs to instill this winning mentality into the players he picks.
We need players who can demand performances from others on the field, but a manager needs to instill this winning mentality into the players he picks.
Well actually it took Fergie a few seasons to rebuild but yeah, having been given the time to build the foundations, we flourished and I had lots of gravy on me chips.
There were bad times and crap games sometimes and a section of the fans wanted him out. I can’t imagine the crap he would have got on here had internet been around then. I imagine it would be pretty much like now.
The motto of the red cafe should be “hindsight is a wonderful thing”.
Nonsense. We lack technicians, not effort.
Absolutely, he was brilliant. There is a big difference though, I know a lot of footballers are working class but it’s nothing compared with the poverty of Kolisi and they have been made for life from the age of 20 which isn’t true even of a top rugby player.
Yes, Fergie came in 1986 and we had players with a reputation for drinking then, which he had to sort out. it took him nearly 5 years to build a team and get rid of the deadwood.
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Yes Bryan Robson, Ooh aah Paul McGrath (was the original version sang before Cantona era), Norman Whiteside et al. Fergie brought in afternoon training to stop ‘em getting pissed at Delamere golf course every afternoon. Paul McGrath has admitted that he played after drinking a few times. Bryan Robson called it team building haha
Agree.
I've supported United since the early 80's. I've been lucky enough to see the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo,Keane... all the big guns.
One think Ive noticed since Fergies departure is the growing gulf between players and fans.
Ive stood at the crush barriers near the tunnel after matches and watched Rooney, Ronaldo etc be generous with their time greeting fans, sign shirts and such.
I took my son several times recently and was taken aback by how few players even acknowledged the kids waiting for a signature or selfie.
The current crop of United players remind of the Liverpool squad that turned up wearing white suits to the 96 cup final...