I agree with this. We aren't blowing teams off the park and winning by 3 or 4, but its not true to say that we havent been playing well.
Let's focus on coaching first
- Thread starter Borys
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While I do see where you are coming from, don't you think that this team is still a work in progress and it should be expected that there are areas of improvement? We were floundering in 7th and nearer the relegation dogfight in terms of points than we were to Top 4 and the title. He's overseen a remarkable transition when you consider that he's had the personnel he's had and the lack of proper support from the board.
There are at least 3 big holes in the squad that need filling which go a long way through the spine of the team (CB, DM, RW) which has often caused our play to be imbalanced and when the players have an off day, like yesterday was, it just gets even more imbalanced. In terms of the attack itself, I think it (and the team as a whole), relies a lot on rhythm and unfortunately Martial and Greenwood just haven't really turned up this season which is really costing us that rhythm. Also, bringing in a proper DM and a CB to partner Maguire would do wonders for us in terms of freeing up Pogba and to a lesser extent Bruno.
To the argument around the coaching in particular, I don't necessarily think it's a coaching issue moreso than a mentality one. The players, whether consciously or subconsciously, just got far too complacent after a big result. It's a pattern that has been replicated across the last two seasons and its something that needs to be rectified, ASAP. I highly doubt Ole had set us up to play as lethargically as we did and these sorts of performances have been increasingly rare as time has gone on under his watch. We created plenty in our previous games and have taken just about enough of the chances that we created to win. The loss yesterday was particularly egregious as Ole and Pogba both publicly warned against the complacency before the game and it still happened.
Oh ok so we didn't play well beacuse we did good things in the game. Ok.
We won't agree on this, so have a good day.
You see, I don't understand posts like this. Is anyone shitting the bed? Do you disagree with the OP points? And most importantly, are you happy with last performances against bottom half teams just because we've won?
Martial lack of goals was our biggest problem when we were creating load of chances for him, which he couldn't convert. Right now we're not even creating any decent chances.
Read the OP. 2nd and 3rd paragraph. It'll help you to understand my and @RashyForPM points because it's quite clear you're a bit confused what this discussion is about.
We were closer to drawing those games than scoring another goal, so it's weird that people act like "we controlled the game". No we did not.
It’s a lot of disagreement among supporters
; the critics against the team is very often inconsistent.When we win it’s a problem that we have a system which depends to much on individual brilliance, meaning we have a very basic system based on freedom of expression and letting players make decisions during games. When we loose we have a system who disfavour individual brilliance.
Let’s take Liverpool as an example. The have had a bad period. They are playing the same system as always, but have some important players injured or not in form. Is their bad performance a result of problems with the system or lack of individual brilliance? To me it’s obvious. It makes no sense that Liverpool strives in the attack because their system suddenly doesn’t work.
Conclusion: It’s not fair to blame the system when we talk about the performances of Martial and Rashford lately (dipp in form).
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We didnt played "incredibly well" as you say because we made sloppy mistakes on defense and two of our goals came from a clear mistake and an individual brilliance action.
If by incredibly well you just mean winning then yeah we wont agree on this one.
And while you're talking about possession in the opponent's half, there's another thing that the absolute top teams are all very good at: playing out from the back. Which is why it triggers me every time the matchday thread moans that 'we should stop this passing the ball out from the back nonsense' - a team that immediately resorts to hoofball when pressed is a team with a relatively low ceiling. We're not really good at this aspect of possession either but if we give up on it altogether, we limit ourselves massively. So I'm happy that Ole seems to insist on it still.
I kind of agree and also disagree. We are not a team that is going to have 70% possession against anybody, but I felt during those games that we were comfortable and far more likely to win than lose.
This sort of form is not unknown by fans either. We were on a league run of 10W & 3D before last night. That in itself is extremely impressive, and anyone looking at those stats alone would say 'big title challengers' but many people have leant towards City and the reason for that is that we aren't scoring enough, and conceding too many, to confidently say that we would not have a bad game in our future.
Ignoring last night, this team has been impressively consistent from the results perspective for a whole year if you ignore the "pre-season games" where we were forced to use the first few actual games of the season as our warm up.
Was joking with some of my friends that one could conveniently start a rumour that the genius Odion Ighalo had silently been coaching the team and merely using Ole as the face of the operation, and now he's left after a year, it will all be exposed!
In seriousness, there have been improvements in personnel, consistency in results, resilience, and in responding to adversity, however 2 areas that I hope to see more improvements around are:
1. Sustained good and energetic team performances. We see glimpses, but till now, that's all they are. (I feel with the persistent lack of off the ball movement and nous from some of our forward players, this may remain a hard nut to crack)
2. Cutting out the complacency. This team reacts well to adversity (maybe because that's what they're used to) but doesn't seem to handle praise or good times very well. When things are going well, or against lesser opposition, we almost always start slow. There's definitely a complacency issue there.
Was joking with some of my friends that one could conveniently start a rumour that the genius Odion Ighalo had silently been coaching the team and merely using Ole as the face of the operation, and now he's left after a year, it will all be exposed!
In seriousness, there have been improvements in personnel, consistency in results, resilience, and in responding to adversity, however 2 areas that I hope to see more improvements around are:
1. Sustained good and energetic team performances. We see glimpses, but till now, that's all they are. (I feel with the persistent lack of off the ball movement and nous from some of our forward players, this may remain a hard nut to crack)
2. Cutting out the complacency. This team reacts well to adversity (maybe because that's what they're used to) but doesn't seem to handle praise or good times very well. When things are going well, or against lesser opposition, we almost always start slow. There's definitely a complacency issue there.
We were punching above our weight by being first in the league. Now we're in a paltry second place, we've got coaching issues again 
Performances have been good against all types of teams, front foot teams, park the bus teams etc. An issue we had last season. Creating lots of changes although not taking them consistently. Many games we have been in control for 80Pc or more of the game, again unlike last season
I could have posted this last week and got not a single comment but people might have their tails up now that they look less stupid and start sharing that we have squeecked every win this season as they are in other threads
The best evidence of this has been the narrative change away from our squad being poor to our squad being sensational and they the pressure should be on ole to win this title with a great group of players.
You wouldn't be you without shitting on a an ex player.
Please let me know which part of my post can be considered negative on any way
If it wasn't a sarcasm I apologize.
I forgive you
We had 76% last night
Touche, but you get my point. We are not a team that look to be overly dominant with the ball, because a lot of our best moments come from our winning it back.We had 76% last night
I think that a proper defensive coach would help us enormously, most of our goals against have come from poor decisions or just defensive mistakes.
We do have several plans, which you can see quite readily. If our opponents have a high line, then our forward players make runs into the space behind, against a low block we look to play one two's around the edge of the box, or get Bruno on the ball to pick out the forwards run in between defenders, which only seems to work occasionally as our forward players, apart from Cavani, are quite static.
I agree that our passing is too slow, and very often sidewards or backwards, which is what we had last night from Matic and Pogba, although both had decent games.
I wish we could adopt Sir Matt Busby's principal which was passing the ball to a United player at pace and then moving forward to keep the momentum going, thereby giving the defending team no time to set up a defensive unit.
I watched the Villa game last night, and for the most part that is how they play, but the fullbacks make that overlapping run to create space, which is something we don't do as our slow build up means we are very often facing 7 or 8 defenders.
In the last few games we seem to have played better against the full press. Liverpool's second goal came from a Cavani mistake where he should have controlled the ball before passing to a colleague.
Yeah, of course I get it. And I have to say that despite our great run of results I'm still not at all convinced by our ability to create and score goals when counter-attacking isn't an option. I mean, just look at our recent games against relegation candidates who parked the bus:
- Sheffield United: a header from a corner. Something that happens once out of every 50 corner or so.
- Fulham: an awful mistake by a goalkeeper and poacher's instinct from Cavani. Then an absolute wonder strike from Pogba.
- Burnley: a nice but somewhat lucky volley by Pogba in a game where we largely looked toothless in attack.
I could add Watford in the cup where again we could only score from a corner. We still can't create chances consistently against this type of teams. Hell, even against a much more open Villa side we needed a penalty to get the winner though you could argue that we missed quite a few chances in that game.
Imo we need to acknowledge that football is hard, and very few teams in history are able to BOTH dominate posession AND carve out loads of good chances. Back in the good old days - Fergie times - we would have lots of chances because players weren't as fit, and space opened up to attack. This was generally true of all the good teams.
Now, two things have happened: Pep's revolutionary 'defending with the ball' and player fitness has come on significantly. So even lower level Premier league teams are more than capable of maintaining their shape for the full 90, especially in a low block.
Both 'peak' Pool and City are all about defending with the ball imo. By that I mean, completing simple, effective passes in order to maintain posession without really trying to score. The idea isn't to create chances, it's just to stifle a game of football. Eventually the defending team get annoyed/bored/lazy and that's when they pounce. It's effective of course, but it requires a very particular set of players - which of course Pep has hand chosen.
We cannot play like that. Most teams can't. Our players simply aren't good enough at passing the ball, receiving the ball properly and having the game intelligence and discipline to stay in their zones/ keep making the right runs.
We have to create a strategy that fits our squad. The Glazers have never demonstrated the willingness to craft a squad to fit a strategy, so we need to be more like Madrid/PSG etc - buy great players and hope it works out. In that case a pragmatic manager - like Ole or Ancelotti - is what you need.
We are at our best when we're reactive, can let our superior players not be out-numbered and just do their thing. We are at our worst when we try to mimic Pep teams, pass out from the back, slowly build up play, complete 60 passes without reaching the final third etc. And yet we keep trying the latter. We have to be more proactive with our passing, more vertical, and accept not having the ball. We're better when games are 50/50 than 70/30, and should play accordingly. It'll mean more risks, but it'll also mean more success.
Now, two things have happened: Pep's revolutionary 'defending with the ball' and player fitness has come on significantly. So even lower level Premier league teams are more than capable of maintaining their shape for the full 90, especially in a low block.
Both 'peak' Pool and City are all about defending with the ball imo. By that I mean, completing simple, effective passes in order to maintain posession without really trying to score. The idea isn't to create chances, it's just to stifle a game of football. Eventually the defending team get annoyed/bored/lazy and that's when they pounce. It's effective of course, but it requires a very particular set of players - which of course Pep has hand chosen.
We cannot play like that. Most teams can't. Our players simply aren't good enough at passing the ball, receiving the ball properly and having the game intelligence and discipline to stay in their zones/ keep making the right runs.
We have to create a strategy that fits our squad. The Glazers have never demonstrated the willingness to craft a squad to fit a strategy, so we need to be more like Madrid/PSG etc - buy great players and hope it works out. In that case a pragmatic manager - like Ole or Ancelotti - is what you need.
We are at our best when we're reactive, can let our superior players not be out-numbered and just do their thing. We are at our worst when we try to mimic Pep teams, pass out from the back, slowly build up play, complete 60 passes without reaching the final third etc. And yet we keep trying the latter. We have to be more proactive with our passing, more vertical, and accept not having the ball. We're better when games are 50/50 than 70/30, and should play accordingly. It'll mean more risks, but it'll also mean more success.
I agree with the principal but I think the issue is that against a lot of teams they're not interested in making it 50:50, they know that if we go toe to toe in most cases we'll win so they let us have the ball and sit deeper and look for counter/set pieces in the same way we do against our tougher opponents.
So we need to find a way to win when we have the ball and teams sit deep. I agree our way shouldn't be City/Liverpools way but it needs to be something and I think Ole still has a fair bit of work to do on that. Certainly one thing we can look out is passing from the back as that does seem to lead to problems more often then it should and takes us a while to get out but I think the biggest issue is the attacking movement.
In addition I do think against better teams we do need to not be so counter focussed if we are going to try and bridge the gap particularly in Europe. Clearly it's a process and takes time but it's hard to really see right now the direction we're going as it feels like we're really leaning in to being focussed on the counter which can't be all that we're about particularly when our defence isn't rock solid both in terms of the defenders/GK but also in what we ask from our wide players.
I can comfortably say we are playing much better, but we are gifting goals and that makes the games look closer. Our strikers are out of form and we need some improvements defensively but we are progressing.
You are right, we do not create chances at will but I'm very confident that next seasons version of this side will be stronger. We simply have to solve this left side bias that the team has at the moment because its too easy to defend against. I'm excited to see Diallo but regardless I think we will be back in for Sancho (or other RW) this summer and they will give us another dimension.
Ole made a very important statement after the Liverpool win. "We won it, and we did it on our terms"
That's not a throwaway comment. We can read a lot into that. It is clear that he is building this team up in layers and that game was an important milestone not just because we beat a top side - we've done that plenty of times - but we did it largely going toe and toe and playing the way that WE wanted to play, not having our strategy dictated to us by fear of what the opposition was going to, or how good we were at being able to compete with that.
That win doesn't mean that we are there now, but it is a progressive step and it was important. I actually put on my friends group right after 'watch us go and lose the next one now' because I feared a hangover defeat. I don't think it was a coincidence that we looked more sluggish than we had in many games straight after that one. The main takeaway we should take from Ole's comment is that they know that we still have a lot of work to do to get better, and I'm fairly confident that they know exactly what to do to get us there.
That's not a throwaway comment. We can read a lot into that. It is clear that he is building this team up in layers and that game was an important milestone not just because we beat a top side - we've done that plenty of times - but we did it largely going toe and toe and playing the way that WE wanted to play, not having our strategy dictated to us by fear of what the opposition was going to, or how good we were at being able to compete with that.
That win doesn't mean that we are there now, but it is a progressive step and it was important. I actually put on my friends group right after 'watch us go and lose the next one now' because I feared a hangover defeat. I don't think it was a coincidence that we looked more sluggish than we had in many games straight after that one. The main takeaway we should take from Ole's comment is that they know that we still have a lot of work to do to get better, and I'm fairly confident that they know exactly what to do to get us there.
First of all, Liverpool have changed a system because of Thiago and are missing some key players in defense. Second thing - let's reverse your argument and answer me this: our good run of form was a result of system working well or individual brilliance?It’s a lot of disagreement among supporters
When we win it’s a problem that we have a system which depends to much on individual brilliance, meaning we have a very basic system based on freedom of expression and letting players make decisions during games. When we loose we have a system who disfavour individual brilliance.
Let’s take Liverpool as an example. The have had a bad period. They are playing the same system as always, but have some important players injured or not in form. Is their bad performance a result of problems with the system or lack of individual brilliance? To me it’s obvious. It makes no sense that Liverpool strives in the attack because their system suddenly doesn’t work.
Conclusion: It’s not fair to blame the system when we talk about the performances of Martial and Rashford lately (dipp in form).
We were more likely to draw than win or lose actually (see graph on the bottom).
But we're not talking about results, we're talking about performances. All the things you mention makes me think we understand "coaching" differently. In your case it's more about team mentality IMO.
What you mean is "results" which have been good but talk about "performance" which has been poor for a while.
What is a 80Pc? And which games it was?
You generalize about others in your post and yet don't give any real examples of "signs of improvement".
See, I disagree with that statement. Watch yesterday game and see how our gameplan relies on passing the ball to attackers surrounded by 3 opposition players, because we don't do any build-up play, no dragging defenders, no cohesion. You buy Messi, put him in our team and he struggles - coaching has to be addressed first.
The bolded part is not really true:
The general rule is if the xG-xGA difference is below 0,7-0,8, the most likely result is a draw. Basing on that we can conclude we've overachieved in 3 of the last 5 games. Which is what happens when you rely on individuals winning you games, and that's OK but it can't be the only strategy. In general looking at this graph it seems we're doing much better against decent sides than poor sides, and unsurprisingly our biggest issue is creating chances against them. Our best run of form was with Fred and McTominay in midfield too, but Bruno form is a big factor as well.
This. Close thread.
It was one shit game. Very annoying yes. But i don't think coaching is the issue. We can't keep having people's opinion doing a 180 because of one defeat.
The coaching is fine, we have top class player who've played at other big clubs, international football, at United under Mou and Van Gaal. If the coaching was amateurish Ole would have been long gone by now, it was be leaked all over the press and a player mutiny.
The coaching is fine, we have top class player who've played at other big clubs, international football, at United under Mou and Van Gaal. If the coaching was amateurish Ole would have been long gone by now, it was be leaked all over the press and a player mutiny.
I like Xg as much as the next guy, but I don't form any opinions based solely off of that. I won't trust my eye for everything in football, but when it comes to whether I felt we were dominant and/or deserved to win I will, and that's where I disagree with you on the above
But I can counter that first paragraph with many instances within those very same games where we have displayed everything you mentioned but the final pass was off. While hard chances and shots on goal might not have occurred, there have been plenty of moments created that could and should have led to shots which didn't for one reason or another. Yesterday was absolutely bad, I agree and we deserved to lose for how passive and poor we were, but I go back to my original point, I genuinely do not believe that anyone in the coaching setup is wanting us to play this way, and it is evident in the sea change in our performances since this time last year, that occurrences such as yesterday have been fewer and farther between. We had a stinker and deservedly lost, but I don't think it's down to coaching per se. It was a decidedly dodgy performance - our first in a long while, but these sorts of games happen to the best of us, and with it being a Covid season, there will no doubt be more to come in the weeks and months ahead from all the teams around us, including ourselves, City and Liverpool.See, I disagree with that statement. Watch yesterday game and see how our gameplan relies on passing the ball to attackers surrounded by 3 opposition players, because we don't do any build-up play, no dragging defenders, no cohesion. You buy Messi, put him in our team and he struggles - coaching has to be addressed first.
The bolded part is not really true:
The general rule is if the xG-xGA difference is below 0,7-0,8, the most likely result is a draw. Basing on that we can conclude we've overachieved in 3 of the last 5 games. Which is what happens when you rely on individuals winning you games, and that's OK but it can't be the only strategy. In general looking at this graph it seems we're doing much better against decent sides than poor sides, and unsurprisingly our biggest issue is creating chances against them. Our best run of form was with Fred and McTominay in midfield too, but Bruno form is a big factor as well.
It's tricky to not overreact to a loss like that, given how bad it was. I think the most important thing now is the reaction. Not just the players against Arsenal in terms of intensity, but Ole in his team selection.
It's clear we still have a problem against teams that sit deep. It's also clear that Rashford, Martial and Greenwood aren't the ideal trio up front against a low block. A lot of people highlight how poor Rashford is when we have no space to run into, but he's the only player in the team with the ability to beat a player right now. That keeps him in there for me, or else we'd be stuck watching sideways stuff all the time.
What I want to see is a bit of evolution of sorts from that loss. It's incredible to think this given the stats last season, but I don't think Rashford, Martial and Greenwood should start again as a 3. I don't think Martial should play at all for a few games unless necessary. I think last night we needed Pogba further up the pitch, we didn't need Matic holding like that and could have done with the B2B qualities of McTominay and Fred. VDB or Mata could have also had a moment of inspiration we needed.
It's clear that we can do it in big games, the challenge of the coaching staff is now to learn how to beat the low block, which is what we will play against 50-60% of the time in the PL. We saw our luck run out last night, you can't keep beating the smaller teams by the odd goal, eventually the break is going to go against you. We should have come away last night from that game a bit like the 5-2 against Bournemouth last night, with a good performance but plenty to work on at the back.
It's a little worrying form a coaching perspective, because I really thought that we had this issue of turning up and finding a way to win against the smaller teams behind us. It would be an awful time for this problem to rear it's ugly head again.
It's clear we still have a problem against teams that sit deep. It's also clear that Rashford, Martial and Greenwood aren't the ideal trio up front against a low block. A lot of people highlight how poor Rashford is when we have no space to run into, but he's the only player in the team with the ability to beat a player right now. That keeps him in there for me, or else we'd be stuck watching sideways stuff all the time.
What I want to see is a bit of evolution of sorts from that loss. It's incredible to think this given the stats last season, but I don't think Rashford, Martial and Greenwood should start again as a 3. I don't think Martial should play at all for a few games unless necessary. I think last night we needed Pogba further up the pitch, we didn't need Matic holding like that and could have done with the B2B qualities of McTominay and Fred. VDB or Mata could have also had a moment of inspiration we needed.
It's clear that we can do it in big games, the challenge of the coaching staff is now to learn how to beat the low block, which is what we will play against 50-60% of the time in the PL. We saw our luck run out last night, you can't keep beating the smaller teams by the odd goal, eventually the break is going to go against you. We should have come away last night from that game a bit like the 5-2 against Bournemouth last night, with a good performance but plenty to work on at the back.
It's a little worrying form a coaching perspective, because I really thought that we had this issue of turning up and finding a way to win against the smaller teams behind us. It would be an awful time for this problem to rear it's ugly head again.
I think there's loads of signs of improvement. Are we going to be like a Pep or Klopp side, no, of course not. But we are a very decent side all the same.
The single biggest thing to criticize our coaching team is set piece defending. It's fecking woeful. We don't concede every game but it sure as feck feels like we give away big chances from them in every game.
Yesterday was definitely a collective off day. Bruno was off, Pogba was decent but not really creative, martial couldn't control anything nor move or pass, and Rashford was off as well. The defending for their 2nd was a travesty as well, and thats not coaching, its amateurish ball watching and not picking up a wide open man 3 times in the box.
The single biggest thing to criticize our coaching team is set piece defending. It's fecking woeful. We don't concede every game but it sure as feck feels like we give away big chances from them in every game.
Yesterday was definitely a collective off day. Bruno was off, Pogba was decent but not really creative, martial couldn't control anything nor move or pass, and Rashford was off as well. The defending for their 2nd was a travesty as well, and thats not coaching, its amateurish ball watching and not picking up a wide open man 3 times in the box.
Seems like many of us consider systems and game plan to be the definitive answer to every problems. The sum of other factors is much more important to explain results: what happens in the training ground every day, individual brilliance, squad quality and depth, confidence, mentality, flow, injuries, man management, team cohesion and more.
The system is a result of all the the individual bricks which to a certain extent already is formed. Every team has their inherent or special character, based on what I previous mentioned. United will never be able to play similar as City and visa versa (with their existing squads.
We have to play on our strengths; it is difficult to change a cat to be a dog. If you want a dog, buy a dog
The system is a result of all the the individual bricks which to a certain extent already is formed. Every team has their inherent or special character, based on what I previous mentioned. United will never be able to play similar as City and visa versa (with their existing squads.
We have to play on our strengths; it is difficult to change a cat to be a dog. If you want a dog, buy a dog
It neve went away as a problem. It just got drowned out by the noise of Top Reds hitting their empty skulls against one another.
Like to think my opinion hasn't changed since he got the job permanently whatever the result
We still seem lacking in evolving into a team that likes to dictate the tempo of the game, more so against sides in the top 8.
It’s modern fans or the Caf. Not much to do about it. If we never lose a match again, we might be okay.
If you recall, even in Peps first season he struggled to break down the clubs parking the bus. Then he splurged a few hundred million and hey presto, he could break them down more often.
Firstly, sometimes teams will park the bus successfully.
Secondly, when they do, it often takes a moment of individual brilliance to get the first goal and open up the game.
Yeah the top reds brand many of us vocal ones as plastic and told to go and support another club
Thierry Henri said that Pep let the players do what they like in the final third in terms of creating and scoring. But they had to do what he said to get them into the final third. It follows that Pep relies on the exceptional qualities of (let’s face it) some of the best players to ever play the game, to create chances and score.
I’m not saying Pep ain’t a good coach. But I am saying that player quality is the biggest factor in being able to break teams down and score the difficult goals.
I agree with the OP that we have to get more out of the guys we’ve got but the defending is the key area to fix. Our attack was blunt yesterday but we did score and Sheffield’s goals were avoidable. If we start keeping some clean sheets, we’ll win those same games (without any magic wand to score 3 or more). 1-0 is fine in those games and very achievable. (You’d think).
We are decent at counter attacks, which is a good thing, but we tend to struggle against workhorses who park the bus and do not leave much of an open space. We suck at keeping the ball to see the games out, whereas our positional off the ball movement is non existant. Our mindset is to attack first, which is good, but we lack concentration when it comes to defending. Having some of the most expensive defenders in the world it really is a shame. We can not conserve energy in some of the games, because we do not know how to do that efficiently, and due to our vulnerable defending we have to apply extra effort to win back from going behind. As good as Bruno and Rashy have been of late, a large number of turnovers makes things worse. We are good sprinters, but we suck at marathons. This season is the most difficult of marathons, so we need to make some changes in our coaching and tactics. We seem to be burnt out both physically and mentally. Drop points against Gunners and that will be it in our race for the title.
Here's hoping it is all bollix and the team prove me wrong.
Here's hoping it is all bollix and the team prove me wrong.
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