Let's pretend we're doing it right

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by SER19, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Oct 8, 2019
    #1

    SER19 Full Member

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    This goes against my genuine feelings and I feel nothing much actually matters while Woodward remains.

    But for the sake of trying to find a glimmer of optimism amongst the appalling football and years of decline, what if we consider this.

    The overhaul and cultural change needed at United is astronomical. The closest example of a failure to manage it is Liverpool who are coming up on 3 decades without a title. They had glimmers of returns to good football under benitez and Rodgers and even had fair success under houllier but never felt like anything other than a team in transition until klopp came. We look so much like Liverpool did for so long it's painful.

    We can't afford 30 years of it. What if the size of the task is so big that it simply warrants another season or 2 of this rubbish. We all talk about needing a drastic overhaul but what if that's what's happening? And maybe we're not appreciating the task.

    If we ignore oles clear lack of coaching the team to a good level, his transfers have been good, but its the ones he didn't make that are costing him. We left the squad too thin to cope with injuries to the core of the team (bissaka pogba Shaw martial).

    But we've removed

    Lukaku, sanchez, Fellaini, darmian, herrera, Smalling, Valencia. All players we could use in this crisis but not players we needed longer term.would anybody still want these players here for the sake of a few more points these months? They had to go. Or at least most did. Not replacing them was the problem


    If we did the same on January and next summer and lost
    Young
    Fred
    Matic
    Pereira
    Mata

    And brought in, the likes of (though not neccesarily) maddison, longstaff, sancho, or a top striker, even accounting for losing pogba, surely we might be closer to success than it feels?

    12 months from now a squad of (insert your own additions)

    De Gea, Henderson, romero

    Wan Bissaka, maguire, tuanzebe, lindelof, Shaw, Dalot, Left back

    McTominay, Midfielder, Midfielder, Midfielder, Gomes, James, Lingard

    Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Striker


    If we give solskjaer the benefit of the doubt that he can identify the right players (as his signings have been good) does anybody have any optimism at all, that despite the disaster that is this season, that we might actually be on a path to a decent squad?
  2. Oct 8, 2019
    #2

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    This is how far we've fallen we're resorting to fan fiction?
  3. Oct 8, 2019
    #3

    SER19 Full Member

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    Just trying to have a conversation from the other side of the coin.its not unreasonable to think we will offload 5 or 6 more players that need to go, and replace them with perhaps 4 signings of the same profile solskjaer has gone for.

    I'm just wondering if anybody thinks that it could amount to progress
  4. Oct 8, 2019
    #4

    Sir Scott McToMinay New Member

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    No.

    - We see no improvement in play, only regression.

    - We’ve been in a relegation form since March, that’s simply unacceptable, and he hasn’t found a way to get us out of it.

    - Our attacking play is simply non existent, there are literally no patterns of play, nothing.

    - He sticks to a formation that’s not working, and he keeps at it regardless of performances or results.

    - Based on what I’ve seen from his as a manager in the PL he is simply not a good manager, nowhere near PL level.

    - When you watch his interviews he looks like he has no clue how to sort us out, we’ve seen it with David Moyes, and it has a negative impact on the team, no doubt.

    - The only thing that he has supposedly going for him are his transfers, the most expensive CB in football history, the best available RB in the league (2 transfers that could’ve been made by most of the caf) and a kid suggested by Giggs.

    - The longer he has been manager here the lower we sink and the worse we play.

    He is done.
  5. Oct 8, 2019
    #5

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    I think that comes under super wishful thinking, or blind faith.

    You can't just hope for progress in a year's time, you have to see it happen.
    That's why Liverpool could sense something was building, when even in his first season they were putting in some great displays and scoring terrific goals. It took time to piece the team together and get the defence sorted as the final bit.
  6. Oct 8, 2019
    #6

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    No. All the above previous managers have quality and good coaching skills.

    Ole is shite & they’ll be no optimism or progress until he’s sacked & a half decent manager appointed
  7. Oct 8, 2019
    #7

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Sancho wont come.

    Why would he? Worst team, worse coach, relegation battle.

    Stop giving ole excuses, he needs to be better than this. You can make excuses if he finished 6th.

    Forget he's managing united, he'd be sacked if he manages Bournemouth.

    And no amount of hypothetical fan fiction can alter the reality
  8. Oct 8, 2019
    #8

    GaryLifo Nice Bloke

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    It's a decent post. It's not fan fiction any more than a person who says let's bring in Pochettino and then starts speculating about who he might sign or how he might set up the team.

    It's possible that what the OP is saying is true. Liverpool had a similar moment when they had Hodgson and brought in KKK before finally going for Rogers.

    KKK began the recovery, Rogers brought in the attacking style of play and Klopp came in to finish it off. The whole process took several seasons.
  9. Oct 8, 2019
    #9

    ash_86 Full Member

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    We were saying the exact things we are saying now under Jose. No pattern of play, too static, can't sting two passes together ect... :houllier:
  10. Oct 8, 2019
    #10

    Acquire Me Full Member

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    Good post. You might be spot on or you might not. I hope you’re theory is right.
  11. Oct 8, 2019
    #11

    BlueHaze Full Member

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    While we do lack quality and squad depth this is not a player isssue. The issue is we have major problems upstairs and a manager completely out of his depth. We could get those players mentioned and Ole would still have us play this disastrous trash football. When he first arrived we played some great football a little later we fell off but still kept on winning. Everything just went our way and then came the defeat against Arsenal and since then we've been absolute trash and have kept on losing almost every single game from then on and it's still carrying on.

    The first thing that needs to be done to try and recover from this mess is to bring in an actual manager and not some guy just trying to emulate SAF. Hate to say it but Ole the player I'll love till death but Ole the manager I'm ashamed of. Not only his dreadful managing but his attitude is shocking as well. Time after time we play this shambolic football and he comes out and says he's happy with it. He needs to go with immediate effect before he'll have us in a real relegation dog fight.

    We barely beat Astana, couldn't beat AZ, couldn't even get a draw against Bruce's Newcastle, drew against Huddersfield, lost 0-2 against Warnock's relegated Cardiff, trashed 0-4 against Everton and so on. The results speak for themselves. Ole doesn't belong in top flight football. Molde was literally his level.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  12. Oct 8, 2019
    #12

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    Nice to see a thread that isn't all doom & gloom

    This is where your theory falls short, IMO.
    We're not going to sign 3 midfielders in 1 window, and we're potentially going to lose Gomes too.

    But overall I agree with the premise, we still have deadwood to shift, and we still have gaps in the squad, it just won't be solved within 12 months.
  13. Oct 8, 2019
    #13

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    My positives around us are:

    ------------------DDG-----------------
    AWB------ Axel ------ Maguire --- Shaw

    Subs: Young, Dalot, Lindelof, Rojo, Jones, TFM, Williams

    The defensive unit has quality and depth, with a mix of young players who might come good and some top level players who are ready now. I do think Shaw should be replaced but it is not a priority and maybe Williams can push for that place over the next couple of seasons. Either way I feel this group is good enough to get us back into the top 4 which is our short term goal.

    That's pretty much it sadly, I do like Martial as a 9 as well and think Rashford could have a future as an RW if he sorted his head out and had some intensive coaching on positioning.

    Edit: forgot McTerminator
  14. Oct 8, 2019
    #14

    SAFMUTD Full Member

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    This.

    It’s amazing seeing how praised he is for the transfers as if he discovered Cristiano or Salah, FFS Maguire and AWB were obvious options there’s no merit in there.

    James has proved nothing yet to consider him a complete success, he’s only been here for a couple of months and while his start was impressive his performances have slowed down, so there’s no warranty he’ll make it here.
  15. Oct 8, 2019
    #15

    POF Full Member

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    Good post. The theory behind the approach is sound. The cultural reset, signing players who are leaders. All of that is required.

    The challenge is that they only got 3 players in this summer and are at least 5 or 6 short of having an adequate squad. The current recruitment approach of signing players you see in the EPL every week for inflated prices is going to make this overhaul a long and expensive one. The manager cannot be responsible for the overhaul.

    Unfortunately, Woodward's approach to hiring senior executives at the club extends to people he went to university with. Unless one of the foremost Directors of Football in the world happened to frequent the college bar in Bristol uni when Woody and his mates were on the razz, the club is in trouble.
  16. Oct 8, 2019
    #16

    SER19 Full Member

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    I think if we sold pogba we feasibly could. One being an experienced back up.

    To all slightly defensive responses, I do mostly agree I'm talking out of my ass, just a theory to discuss rather than a defence of ole who sadly seems out of his depth
  17. Oct 8, 2019
    #17

    matt23 Full Member

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    Good post.

    Of course we'd be better off with 3 or 4 quality additions, even Ole's biggest critics would admit so.

    My (and apparently a lot of others) main fear is the damage that could be done to a young squad potentially being handled poorly in the meantime. Morale, confidence, technique, game intelligence, when and how to press, whether or not players like playing for us (group mentality) - If these things aren't being particularly well handled by Ole and the current coaching set up the rebuild could be on the wrong track.
  18. Oct 8, 2019
    #18

    BlueHaze Full Member

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    With the injuries and the way we play I'd doubt that.
  19. Oct 8, 2019
    #19

    diarm Full Member

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    Good thread. I'd like to think this is the case and if it is, I'm glad the man at the helm is someone who loves this club. I refuse to believe that Ole isn't doing what he think is right for Manchester United, even if he does lack the top level ability and experience to take us back to the top. We've had two coaches in Moyes and Jose who shat on the club when things didn't go their way - who were more interested in their own ends than the good of the club.

    We're so far from competing at the moment that I don't care how good a coach the manager is. I want someone in there who is going to hold together the fabric of what Manchester United means while the clear-out and reset is happening. There is no manager capable of coming in and fixing this mess until the structure is fixed anyway - so I'd prefer to have a United legend who loves the club at the helm through the mess, rather than another mercenary who is only going to start flinging more shit at the walls when things go against him anyway.
  20. Oct 8, 2019
    #20

    koop New Member

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    Fair play for posting this.
    90% of people here want instant success and are highly delusional about it.
    Prepared to get flamed to shit.
  21. Oct 8, 2019
    #21

    MisterLupus Full Member

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    It's too soon to call it either way in my opinion - but currently I'm not blaming the coaching staff for our failures this is on the players themselves. Personally I've set up a few criteria as to what would make me swing either way:

    1) We should be well clear of any relegation danger before Christmas or else I'd suggest getting someone new in charge. Not necessarilly because it's all on Ole and his crew - but as an emergency measure to avoid potential catastrophe. We don't fecking risk relegation no matter what.

    2) Come May - at least if we get our promised offensive reinforcements in January - we should be top-six again and preferably making an honorable effort towards the top-four at the very least matching the form of those occupying these spots. I would also add that if we don't get any reinforcements during January - that in itself is a repeat mistake from our previous transfer window - thus a way more serious offense as it shows they've learnt nothing from the past and something that would probably make me lean towards a change in management.

    3) Next season should see us solidified back into the top four. With a third transfer window to lean upon there's no excuses if we find ourselves in a similar mess again - none whatsoever. That will be Ole's team - so the blame will be all on him and his fellow coaching team.

    4) 20/21 we should be back challenging again. Even if Ole manages the three previous tasks - which in my opinion would be monumental of him considering the mess we're in - he'll still need to prove himself a potential winner after achieving that rebuild. Because that's where we need to be - back winning - and I think him too would agree to this.

    So there you have it - rather than speculate who's to blame and why I'm simply setting the bar as to what I find acceptable and sticking to it. I'd reccomend this for anyone - as at present both optimism and pessimism with all it's frustrations could prove utterly wasted. I'm willing to give any manager a fair chance - and this is what I consider fair. unconditional love is a fool's errand - so these are my conditions :keano:
  22. Oct 8, 2019
    #22

    Jibbs New Member

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    I can only say they are doing this right and have successfully implemented the plan if at the start of 20/21 season we have added following British players in the team.

    McGinn
    Longstaff
    Maddison
    Sancho
    Kane
    Chilwell

    Yes this is around 500-550 m pounds of investment, but that's how much we do need to execute the apparent plan well.
  23. Oct 8, 2019
    #23

    BlueHaze Full Member

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    McGinn - Not good enough.
    Longstaff - Even McTominay is better.
    Maddison - Decent, a type Ole would like. Prepare to get rinsed by Leicester though.
    Sancho - Will never end up here unless we get our shit together.
    Kane - Fantasy signing.
    Chilwell - Would be a good signing but same as Maddison.

    This "plan" is all fiction. Most probable players to get on that list would be Longstaff and McGinn and neither of them are good enough unless we aim for mid table.
  24. Oct 8, 2019
    #24

    Jibbs New Member

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    That's exactly the problem, this apparent plan of signing young, promising British players is also not foolproof.
  25. Oct 8, 2019
    #25

    BlueHaze Full Member

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    It's also baffling he was interested in Longstaff when Partey was up for grabs for £45m..
  26. Oct 8, 2019
    #26

    In Rainbows Full Member

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    Actually, the common sentiment is that people are prepared to ignore results, so long as the football improves and you can see good attacking football. The problem right now is that there is no results, nor attacking football.
  27. Oct 8, 2019
    #27

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    There's no similarity with pool. They sacked Hodgson, and he's two times better than ole.

    Ole isnt our rafa or kenny, he's our Hodgson.
  28. Oct 8, 2019
    #28

    MisterLupus Full Member

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    He's neither of those - he's our Ole. Ole can be no other than Ole - and only Ole is Ole.
  29. Oct 8, 2019
    #29

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    He's no klopp or kkk then
  30. Oct 8, 2019
    #30

    MisterLupus Full Member

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    No he's Ole. Just Ole. Only Klopp is Klopp and he can be nobody else except Klopp - much like it is with Ole also. As for KKK I hear people are quite secretive in regards to their memberships but I highly doubt you'll find neither Ole nor Klopp nor anyone resembling the two for that matter among their hooded cross-burning morons.
  31. Oct 8, 2019
    #31

    Pughnichi New Member

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    I almost entirely agree with you’re projected squad.

    Add another CB
    Have Rashford as back up to James on the LW
    Remove Lingard
    Add a couple of RWs

    This is the only shred of hope that I’m clinging that makes me unsure about sacking Ole.

    Could he really be doing this. I guess only time will tell.

    What you suggest though is exactly my thinking. Fingers crossed eh
  32. Oct 8, 2019
    #32

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    The problem with this line of thinking is the assumption players are static entities that will stick around for a good few years effectively wasting their best years here. Any player worth his salt that is doing well enough to take the club forward is going to get offers, and unless we're willing to renew them at the going rate, there's no doubt they'll be on their way.

    De Gea has been locked down, perhaps at the wrong time, but locked down nonetheless, but our equivalent talent in Pogba is almost a dead cert to leave next summer. The likes of Maguire and Bissaka, we've got for a couple of years yet (assuming an upward trajectory) at which point, if we're not doing well enough, they'll be the next to repeat the cycle of needing to be renewed at an exorbitant rate or pushing for their move to one of the giants who are by-then tapping them up.

    Juggling players with options and ability with the remainder who need moving on relegating to squad level is difficult and we will need to be doing well enough in their eyes for them to make the sacrifice, either that, or compensate them for sticking around, which comes at a premium that we're likely not going to want to pay.

    Unless you get in an adequate amount of talent per window, the quality players already at the club get antsy, so unless we show ambition in the market and make a number of strong moves, this problem with the squad will be perpetual.
  33. Oct 8, 2019
    #33

    Abhinav Full Member

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    Agree with everything word for word except I do think the coaching staff also need to do better to arrest the descent.
  34. Oct 8, 2019
    #34

    Tickle Lad New Member

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    How confident are you that potential recruits will continue to buy into your proclaimed ambition once you've finished midtable (or worse)?
  35. Oct 8, 2019
    #35

    MisterLupus Full Member

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    Of course. No questions. My biggest concern is his apparent gullibility - handing too many second chances to players we all know are unfit for this team. He's a very likable fellow and extremely loyal towards his players - to a fault I would say. He made this error in Cardiff too it's part of what buried him there - relying on old acquaintances when reinforcing his squad who all proved inadequate contributing pretty much nothing to his side. If I ever see Fred in our team again I might just write him an angrily worded letter :lol:
  36. Oct 8, 2019
    #36

    Abhinav Full Member

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    He definitely has been dealt a bad hand with the current state of the squad. But certain decisions like playing James on right and Andreas on the left still puzzle me. Like you said Fred is another one I wish to never see again in a United shirt. Having said that given the lack of options, I might be saying the same thing about whoever played instead of him.
    The most critical thing for Ole is to somehow get a couple of wins to arrest the decline and negativity. Thats what worried me during our run last year and same this year. No matter how poor we are, we should be able to stop these long winless streaks.
  37. Oct 8, 2019
    #37

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Instant success. So the last 6 years hasn't happened?
  38. Oct 8, 2019
    #38

    Fluctuation0161 Full Member

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    By the time we actually try to recruit good players. Its bot only 2-3 years to late but they also wont want to come to United because we have fallen so far.
  39. Oct 8, 2019
    #39

    koop New Member

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    That's not what I mean. If we kept the same manager for 6 years then yes we should expect success.
    When we have a new manager like we have you can't expect this season to be a success. Yes we don't expect it to be as bad as it is either.
    It's a transition which has started to happen, although 6 years too late, it is happening. Calling for his head will only start the process over again, then we will be back here flaming the shit out of whatever new manager we appoint.
  40. Oct 8, 2019
    #40

    SER19 Full Member

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    This is a big concern. Given how bad the last near 4 years have been you have to at least consider that van gaal would have built on the cup win, the martial and rashford form and at least have had us better than we are