Fair enough.
LGBT issues in Football
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
It is not about what the people chanting these songs think, it is about how it makes other people feel when they hear them being sung. You may now of course choose to call those people snowflakes, but the truth is, as an average straight Western person most of us have no idea how it feels to be in their shoes. My stepdad is from Senegal and literally got spat on in a cafe the other day by some random old guy for no other reason than being black. And my wife is from Indonesia, she works as a doctor in a hospital and has been racially abused by patients numerous times - these are people she is treating for heart diseases, so she is literally saving their lives and they thank her by giving her verbal abuse.
So whenever a Western person yells "Ni Hao" at my wife and laughs (pretending all Asians look alike) rest assured it has a very different emotional impact on her than if an Asian person were come over to me and say "Buon Giorno" and laugh (pretending Europeans look alike). Sure, the (not so funny) "joke" is exactly the same only reversed. But I would most certainly either a) laugh about the whole thing, b) not even notice or c) possibly even feel flattered for looking Italian. But that's not because I am less of a snowflake compared to my wife (she's very tough, actually), it's only because I don't have a lifetime of racial abuse as a backstory. So while of no bother to me, for my wife, every time someone yells "Ni hao" at her it is very disturbing.
These are things that are tricky, because as humans we tend to project our own feelings onto others. Things that don't disturb me surely won't disturb others. Therefore it's completely normal not knowing how certain football songs come across for certain minorities. And the vast majority of people singing those certainly aren't racist, homophobic and the like.
But once you know that singing certain songs really upset groups of people who already have a history of being verbally abused - why wouldn't you just stop? It doesn't cost you money, time or anythings else of any importance - while highly improving the football experience of members of your own group of supporters. There are so many other song lyrics that make for great banter between football fans, what is the big deal.
By that logic, those people chanting racist shit at a player and defend it by saying 'we're not racists, we're just saying something hurtful to try and put him off his game' - they're also totally fine. (And I know the Park song wasn't meant to hurt him.)
I wonder how David Beckham felt back in the day when he was constantly bombarded with chants about his wife and England 'fans' burning efergies of him post '98?
Christ, glad there was no social media back then (I wish there wasn't any at all personally)!
Christ, glad there was no social media back then (I wish there wasn't any at all personally)!
Totally agree with this.
The hell is Lib Cafe?
great post, totally agree
In your POV if a chant is not racist or homophobic then it is a trash nursery rhyme and not worth it. Insane, thats an abysmal mindset and worrying.
Also FYI to anyone in the forum who thinks singing about a person of Asian descent eating dogs is ok and not racist, thats absolutely racist here in the US. Ive not known one asian who would not get offended by it. My wife finds it absolutely racist and is shocked that many think its not racist, but its just referring to cuisine delicacy…. My company fired someone for those exact comments a few years ago.
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Quite interesting how it was top 3 favourite chants ever on here most probably and now it's trash.
Crazy how times change isn't it.
short for "liberal cafe". You know, the place, where all the wokeness in the world seems to flourish and all the football loving rightwingers can`t post their personal opinions without being contested by… arguments.
New member with 50 posts coming out with this nonsense? A returnee perhaps?
It's all over the Current Events forums in fairness. I lurked for years before joining and was well aware of this term.
Oh I thought you couldn't lurk in the general as a newbie.
I posted in this thread before you, and have been reading it since the start. Must be some new way of following people where I get there days before you turn up. Either I'm psychic or you have some very big thoughts about yourself mixed with paranoia.
This is a thread about homophobia, not about racist chants, and you condone attacks on LGBT+ people by far-right groups. Your views as a homophobic football fan couldn't be more relevant in a thread about homophobic football fans. It's actually insane that you're unable to get that.
You can't see the General Forum until you're a full member, but everyone (logged in or not) can read all the other forums. (Well, obviously not either the Newbie, Scout, and Mod forums.)
That just seems like whining with extra steps
It's not just the eating dogs part, though that's iffy in and of itself. It's followed by "[...] could be worse, he could be Scouse, eating rats in his council house". The point of this is of course to denigrate people from Liverpool, but the "could be worse" makes it explicit that eating dogs is a negative thing about Park because he's Korean, while this is "just" implicit when talking about eating dogs on its own.
Isn’t that sort of how a forum works? Someone freely posts something and the nature of that post is now visible to other members of the forum for them to reply to and they can voice if they agree or disagree with the content of the post and the reasons why.
Judging by the preceding ellipsis I feel the word arguments is doing a lot of work there.
Don’t bother with him. It is hopeless or he is trolling. I think the former.
Oh, I know, I'm not trying to convince him of anything. I just think it's useful to get him to show his ass, so to speak. People ought to know when filth is present in the community.
Not a particular lover of the Park song per se, but this is a bit over analytical and hyperbolic in my opinion. Football songs in their essence are pretty juvenile in the sense that they typically use very simplistic tunes and lyrics in order to make them catchy in order to get enough people to sing along. Football, rightly are wrongly, is also a tribal sport which originates from its working class background from the 19th century. Additionally, signing at football games only really started to pick up in the 1950's onwards and became more of a thing in the following decades and is thus tinted with the humour of said decades as typically most football fans have been going since they were young and thus associate signing football songs flavoured with such humour.
Now of course, people can point out that just because something was right/condoned in the past, doesn't mean it should continue to be tolerated ad infinitum. However, you cannot always look at things with the perspective of contemporary social mores to judge habits or relics of the past as they were products of their time in which they were acceptable and/or permissable.
In my opinion, football songs have already made quite a bit of change the more racially charged ones have already largely be filtered out (barring odd pockets) and haven't really been replaced/become mainstream. This for me shows some progress and I am sure that other songs will continue to die out as people start to reflect on what the lyrics actually say.
This said, I feel that going as far to say that the lyrics like 'you could be scouse, eating rats in your council house' is problematic is going a bit far. I say this as firstly the origins that I outline above really need to be considered in a broader perspective than just looking at them with a contemporary lens as otherwise you lose an essence of the match going experience that has been a fundermental aspect for a decades/centuries. Second, which is tied to the first, is that I believe match going (not the same if you watch on TV) would be greatly diluted without the tribal back and forth (note this doesn't condone racism/sexism/violence etc) as going to a match isn't just about watching the match. Thus, for me at least, some goading should be allowed and I don't think the Scouse line is particularly problematic as it doesn't really victimise a minority group, individual characteristics or plays on highly emotional subject topics (Munich, Heysel, Hillsborough etc.)
As a result, if you start getting down to wanting to take umbrage with the 'eating rats' line, then essentially you're going to erase a large and established part of the match going experience, as otherwise songs would entirely have to focus on the teams players (in a completely positive manner.) I say this as if that line is an issue, what is the solution? Asking the opposition fans if they fancy a pint after the game on you to discuss the intricacies of the the tactics employed by the teams that day?
I don't really understand why you're writing this, I'm sorry. The whole point of the line is that scousers are so poor that they're in their council houses eating rats because they can't afford food or "proper" housing, and that this is even worse than eating dogs - which is a bad thing that Park does because he's Korean. This is just what the song means, you can love it or hate it or not care or excuse it if you want. I wasn't even talking about how acceptable the Liverpool part is, merely higlighting that it makes the racism behind the eating dogs trope explicit rather than implicit.
To your last line, yes, if you don't sing about how scousers are filthy poor starving losers you have to invite them for a pint and discuss tactics. That's the solution. There are no other songs.
So we’re not allowed to laugh at Scousers now? That was the main reason for me being a United fan 
The "whataboutism" has taken over the thread it seems.
Yes, exactly, that's what the thread was about from the start. You can never say anything about scousers. You're a very good reader.So we’re not allowed to laugh at Scousers now? That was the main reason for me being a United fan
Nursery rhymes again.
Have a day off Mother Theresa, I was taking the piss.
Sorry, it's become impossible to distinguish from the people who've been seriously saying that sort of thing! Although I guess I should have realized from the line about why you support United.
No worries dude, I know that sometimes text can come across different than spoken words. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!Sorry, it's become impossible to distinguish from the people who've been seriously saying that sort of thing! Although I guess I should have realized from the line about why you support United.
Football chants are for boomers anyway. It's time to bring the new generation to the stadiums by putting special TikTok stands and Fortnite arenas. Perez was right all along.
Cheers, same to you!
I know where my ass is, since I can shit on your posts all day if I want. You seem unable to tell your mouth from your ass though. Like a blindworm.
I also like how you've changed me allegedly 'cheering fascists attacking people because of their sexual orientation and gender' to ' condoning far-right attacking lgbt+ people'. After being called out on imagining things.
Try harder and you will understand that I actually justified random people stopping thugs from causing riots. Jist like I would if the roles were swapped.
Wonder why do I even bother replying to you but if you use vicious terminology you don't know then it perhaps is best to tell where the filth is.
Try harder and you will understand that I actually justified random people stopping thugs from causing riots. Jist like I would if the roles were swapped.
Wonder why do I even bother replying to you but if you use vicious terminology you don't know then it perhaps is best to tell where the filth is.
Do you include fat and bald people who have a history of being verbally abused, or old people etc etc. Pretty common to see comments aimed at many groups/individuals and seems they’re allowed. I don’t ever see a day when people wont offend or hurt peoples feelings. I see lots of comments aimed at others physical appearances on the Caf and it’s just allowed.
Please don't bring bald people into the 'oppressed', we're grand.
Bald people famously get disowned by their parents or followed home from nightclubs and beaten up
This thread is on LGBT issues in football so please use other threads to discuss racism and let's keep on topic.
Football is a global sport, yet LGBT is the great challenge. The clubs and players, are tremulously weak and double standards. Like clubs purposefully remove social media posts, messages about LGBT in many of their supporter countries. Many Muslim players should be leading the voice for change, but obviously they don't.
The issue is trivial and not seriously handled.
The issue is trivial and not seriously handled.
Think Newcastle will be up for another Rainbow Laces campaign?