A World Cup where they won the trophy, won the Golden Ball, scored 7 goals (including 2 in the final) and got 3 assists like the ones he did? Yes they would
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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If Thomas Muller were to have the same WC performance (on top of his 21/22 club season which was easily better than Messi's) he's not sniffing that trophy.A World Cup where they won the trophy, won the Golden Ball, scored 7 goals (including 2 in the final) and got 3 assists like the ones he did? Yes they would
Messi wasn't even a top 10 player in the world for 2/3rd of the timeframe covered by the award, and I'm very generous when I say top 10 because realistically he wasn't top 20 either and top 30 would be quite debatable.
Even if Messi was the best player at the World Cup, Mbappe wasn't THAT far behind while being miles ahead club wise.
I mean, obviously complete nonsense. Muller absolutely would win if he had a World Cup like that. Also, Messi didn't score a lot in his first PSG season but his performances were not as bad as you are making out and the goals came back in the second season whilst the assists and creativity remained. Nevertheless, history shows us that a lot of weight is given to the WC so he obviously deserved it.
Yeah I remember when mbappe won the world cup with France scoring 4 goals, including the youngest to score in a final and a man of the match performance against Argentina at the age of 18, and won the balloon d'or. Oh no wait, he didn't that's rightA World Cup where they won the trophy, won the Golden Ball, scored 7 goals (including 2 in the final) and got 3 assists like the ones he did? Yes they would
No he would not win it at all. Neuer had an all-timer WC performance from GK and didn't win the Fifa BdO after also having a great CL campaign.
Imagine arguing that Messi's 21/22 season was good, missed a decisive penalty vs Real then did nothing the rest of the tie, didn't even make Ligue 1's XI of the season either and statpadded 80% of his assists in two games vs relegation sides (one which had taken a red card).
For 2/3rd of the timeframe covered by the award no one would have ever thought of putting Messi ahead of guys like Son or Mane
History shows us what exactly? Messi won a BdO while doing nothing at the WC in 2010, now he's won THE BEST by only performing at the WC. Seems like the criteria change every so and then to favor Messi.
Muller has never had an overall influence on games like Messi had, even now in the recent World Cup. That’s the difference.
I honestly wonder how people can’t see it.
Muller was far better than Messi from August 2021 to May 2022.
And even if he were to have a similar WC performance we all know he'd never win that award let's be real.
I think the point is messi won it in 2010 winning only la liga, he was good but they didn't win the CL. Both Xavi and Iniesta were dominant throughout the world cup and won it, messi didnt do much during the world cup. Messi won the ballon dor
Benzema won the league and the CL, scored 9 goals in the knockout stages in one of the toughest routes to the CL we've seen, and he performed incredibly through the whole year. Messi was underwhelming in France, got knocked out of the CL in the last 16 in a game he missed in a penalty in, then he's great in the world cup and wins that.
Benzema this year had a far better claim than Messi in 2010, so the criteria seems to switch depending on which favours Messi
Let’s be real. Muller does not have the ability to do what Messi did at that tournament, and never has. It’s not just about goals or winning the World Cup.
So now it's changed from 'he did nothing for 2/3 of the timeline' to 'he did nothing apart from the World Cup'. I guess 35 goals and 30 assists in 51 games in 2022 is pretty easy, huh? Maybe you should rewatch some of his performances from 2010, if you're confused about what happened that year. Whilst you're at it, rewatch some of his 2022 WC performances and some of the ones for PSG this season. Might help help you get that hate out of your blood bro.
Muller can't do half the things Messi did at that World Cup so this makes no sense. But if he could, I'm pretty sure he'd win the award.
Won the biggest price in football. Was the best player in that Argentina team and won Best player of the tournament.
Top goalscorer for Argentina with 7 goals - only one goal behind Mbappé’s total of 8 for the top goalscorer in the entire tournament. But as many goal contributions with 3 assists compared to Mbappé’s 2 assists.
For club and country Messi has 29 goals and 20 assists this season so far. That’s 69 minutes per goal contribution.
For the calendar year 2022 Messi scored 35 goals and had 30 assists in 51 matches. That’s also 69 minutes per goal contribution.
Complete attacking player. Goalscorer and creator, and his statistical output and overall play prove it.
I think in addition to this award, Messi will win an 8th Ballon D’Or.
Top goalscorer for Argentina with 7 goals - only one goal behind Mbappé’s total of 8 for the top goalscorer in the entire tournament. But as many goal contributions with 3 assists compared to Mbappé’s 2 assists.
For club and country Messi has 29 goals and 20 assists this season so far. That’s 69 minutes per goal contribution.
For the calendar year 2022 Messi scored 35 goals and had 30 assists in 51 matches. That’s also 69 minutes per goal contribution.
Complete attacking player. Goalscorer and creator, and his statistical output and overall play prove it.
I think in addition to this award, Messi will win an 8th Ballon D’Or.
A) 4 goals is less than 7.
B) Mbappe had 2 man of the match performances compared to Messi's 5
C) Messi had 3 assists (including a couple of possible iconic ones) to Mbappe's zero
D) Messi scored 2 goals in the final to Mbappe's one
E) Mbappe had another player in his team who scored as many goals, got more MOTM awards (including the award in the final), was considered France's best player and did better in that year's Ballon D'Or voting than Mbappe. None of that applies to Messi.
F) Messi generally was playing for a team with fewer star players than Mbappe and had much greater influence on the overall team.
G) Aside from all that, yes it's exactly the same situation
No chance, just read through all his thread contributions.
https://www.redcafe.net/search/208958/
You are wasting your time.
Ah OK, noted. Thanks
Why is the mens award from Aug 8th 2021 to Dec 22nd 2022 yet the womens is from Aug 7th to July 31st 2022?
Right it has to be exactly the same situation or its not applicable. The point is no one who's won the WC has won the ballon d'or since cannavaro. Messi himself benefited from this in 2010, while you can argue his world cup was better than xavi or iniesta's. I don't think it's arguable that their club performances plus world cup was better than Messi in 2010. Or at least there was less difference than between that and benzema this year. Who outperformed Messi during the year and particularly the CL, scoring 9 goals just in the knockout stages. I don't think 7 games, 4 of which were against teams that aren't of the standard of even a lower table club side, is enough to outweigh that.A) 4 goals is less than 7.
B) Mbappe had 2 man of the match performances compared to Messi's 5
C) Messi had 3 assists (including a couple of possible iconic ones) to Mbappe's zero
D) Messi scored 2 goals in the final to Mbappe's one
E) Mbappe had another player in his team who scored as many goals, got more MOTM awards (including the award in the final), was considered France's best player and did better in that year's Ballon D'Or voting than Mbappe. None of that applies to Messi.
F) Messi generally was playing for a team with fewer star players than Mbappe and had much greater influence on the overall team.
G) Aside from all that, yes it's exactly the same situation
I'd also note that none of mbappe's goals were penalties, whereas Messi scored a record number. Not that they shouldn't count, but if France got a record number of penalties in the 2018 world cup and mbappe took all of them he would have had 7 goals too.
It is absolutely astonishing the barefaced cheek of Messi fans who've screamed penaldo for the last decade, who'll talk about messi's 7 goals in the world cup and neglect to mention Argentina were awarded a record number of penalties at the world cup, you can guarantee if another prominent player had been awarded 5 penalties at a world cup they would not be singing his praises for managing to score 4 of them.
Messi deserved it but if we go by the “he won because he’s messi and did nothing all year apart from the world cup” theory:
there are a select few other names who would have won all the best player in the world awards had they won that world cup with 7 goals, 3 assists and great allround play: Mbappe, neymar (story of him finally taking brazil to world cup glory), ronaldo (nothing needs to be explained here), modric (taking croatia to world cup glory with goals and assists like messi plus humbling defenders with great runs? Yep easy second golden ball). There might be more but I’m lazy.
It is not exclusive to Messi. Not this world cup.
there are a select few other names who would have won all the best player in the world awards had they won that world cup with 7 goals, 3 assists and great allround play: Mbappe, neymar (story of him finally taking brazil to world cup glory), ronaldo (nothing needs to be explained here), modric (taking croatia to world cup glory with goals and assists like messi plus humbling defenders with great runs? Yep easy second golden ball). There might be more but I’m lazy.
It is not exclusive to Messi. Not this world cup.
Messi usually doesn't score his penalties so he cant be Pessi.
Tbf modric is not the same as the other 3, he'd won the league and the champions league already, winning the world cup would be a lot on top of that. I don't think Ronaldo would have got it either, particularly if it was 4 penalties out of 7 goals he'd scored, not given the way he started this season. Mbappe would have definitely. Neymar I'm 50-50 on, I think benzema would have gotten it over him
Nah, but seriously, no one is calling him pessi apart from being immature, but you'd genuinely think some people would have too much shame to have spent a decade telling everyone who'd listen penalties don't count then saying how great his 7 goals were.
For the love of god, stop wasting your life on this stuff.
I am arguing this hypothetically since we wanted to know if winning these awards is exclusive to him under the circumstances. Had modric had the same season as messi had plus dominating a world cup with croatia, done a few things that became the highlight of the world cup (humiliating world cup star defender gvardiol for example with a great run whilst being fecking old, no look assist vs the netherlands) replayed time and again to the world, he would have won. The narrative of his age and his country winning the world cup with him being the leader of it?
not much difference from the messi narrative with argentina.
And I disagree about neymar and Ronaldo. Same narraitive would have given neymar huge chance to win that golden ball and Ronaldo would have definitely won it. Narrative plus remember we are talking about who could have won it based on their fame so we are arguing they had a similar football season to messi and not the awful one he had at United.
Being in your mid to late thirties (messi, ronaldo, modric check), leading your country that has not won it for a long time or ever (messi, ronaldo, modric check) to world cup glory with good to great performances, every of the aforementioned player had the same season as Messi. All three would have won this award.
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I dno getting knocked out at the last 16 with you missing a penalty in the CL as well as single digit goals for an attacker would normally rule them out regardless, obviously not for modric as he's not really a goalscorer or the penalty taker.
Maybe he would have it just it seems like the criteria changes to suit Messi a little, in 2010 I'd say xavi and inesta had better arguments for winning over Messi based on the whole year, than Messi did for winning over benzema this year.
It was obvious as soon as Messi won that he would get the ballon d'or particularly with the timing of the voting meaning its the first time its ever happened just after the world cup, normally the world cup is thr summer then there's another few months of games, so I'm not arguing that it wasn't clear he would win. But I think benzema probably deserved it on the balance of things, no matter how good messi's performances were 4 of them were against Poland, Mexico, Saudi Arabia and Australia, while benzema scored 9 knockout goals in a crazy hard CL run
I guess it's because the women's award follows the traditional schedule of a season while the men's one got adjusted due to the winter World Cup.
Yes it's not applicable because it's completely different. Mbappe was not even the consensus best player in his own team.
Messi won in 2010 because he scored 60 goals and put in astonishing performances week after week FFS. This is really not hard. Spain won the World Cup because they had one of the best squads ever assembled, not just because of Xavi and Iniesta. Messi in 2022 did not have anything like that kind of world class talent around him. Had either Xavi or Iniesta won in 2010, I hardly think it would have been some great travesty, but it's not the same situation as this because there was no WC performer on Messi's individual 2022 level in 2010.
I'd advise that you look at the Ballon D'Or voting in each WC year going back to the start and look at how it is affected. It's not always won by someone because of the WC but it often is and WC stars at the very least finish way higher up in the voting than they otherwise would. BTW, If you can come up with a performance that is actually similar to Messi's where the guy didn't win the BDO, I'd love to see it. Others have already referenced Ronaldo in 2002 when he was literally injured for 2 and a half years before that WC. Was that unfair too?
They did change it to just be a season last year didn't they, so it would be awarded in the summer? So is next year's one going to be based solely on January to may?
That's actually a very good question. It wouldn't really make sense any other way - but awarding a Balon d'Or on the basis of six months is a bit weird. Then again, the ongoing discussion right now is about whether an outstanding World Cup, seven games over a month, is worth the award on its own so...
Yes it was, 7 games out of an entire season, usually at least 3 of which are against opposition that wouldn't make the top half of any of the top 5 leagues is an astonishingly poor way to judge the best player of the season. Benzema scored his 9 knockout goals against 4 of the best teams in Europe and his side were underdogs in every round iirc. Messi's side were favourites in every game apart from the final.
It's recency bias as well I think, if the world cup had come during last season and the award was in the summer, benzema's would be fresher in the mind.
To m, the way it would make sense is this ballon d'or is based on September to May plus the world cup, but ignoring the games from August to December.
And the next one is August to May, but ignoring the world cup. It best reflects the intent of the award, to be a season and include the International competition, but it doesn't seem to have been the criteria for this award so I guess it's not how they're doing it
Benzema has already won the Ballon D'Or so it's not like he's hard done by. That's the most prestigious award.
Ah, fair enough, i thought this was still tied in with that award. It's not like it's ridiculous for Messi to win it, he was still good through the year but I do think it's ridiculous for 7 games, 3 of which are almost always against subpar opposition to hold such weight, it was fine back in the 70s and 80s when there was less money in the club game, but now the level there is so consistently high, its hard to make an argument for internationals to hold the same weight.
Even to the extent where we include goals scored in international friendlies in a players total but not club friendlies, it seems a bizarre holdover from when it was the peak of the game, and these fixtures would be considered the top level rather than a mid season distraction
It is embarassing but unfortunately social media are a shitshow
I see your point but I think the international game and the World Cup still present certain challenges. I've been through these debates before in other threads with people that think the club game and the CL should now be given more weight. Remember that before 2022, neither Messi nor Ronaldo had scored a goal in the KO rounds of the WC, and Ronaldo still hasn't. If the CL is so much tougher, then why can these two rack up hundreds of KO goals in it and yet when it comes to the WC they continually come up empty?
Well because if you reach the CL final you play 7 knockout games a season. If you reach the WC final you play 4 every 4 years. 2006, neither were goalscoring machines, 2010 Messi had to deal with an amateur coach, and tbf 2010 Ronaldo probably should have done better but his knockout game was against a Spain side that would have had 60-70% possession. 2014, Ronaldo has a knee injury and yeah tbf Messi probably should have scored one or two. The point is, poor managers, bad form, injuries, the fact its such a small sample size means it's not that relevant, Ronaldo played 2 knockout games during his peak time as a goalscorer, 0 in 2 isn't a great return but its a tiny sample size. Messi again during his peak, only really had one tournament where the had a long run.
I certainly don't think people are going to argue for Klose being the best striker ever or even in that conversation because of his world cup goals.
If we go by the logic of certain group of fans, Messi never deserved any Ballon Dors or FIFA awards.
Of course he did, I just think it's hard to rationalise him getting both this and 2010, it seems like the two clash. And 2021 was definitely a bit contentious with lewandowski but the rest he didIf we go by the logic of certain group of fans, Messi never deserved any Ballon Dors or FIFA awards.
This was my thinking, but we are including his club performance from August to December?
Well given it didn't seem to mention excluding it and the awards timeframe was to December 2022, it's unclear, but I'd imagine it would have been included