If all fails, hoof it to big Fellaini.
Louis van Gaal's tactics
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I take comfort in that. It was always going to take a manager of some substance (and confidence)to take on this job. I'd take, every time, a manager who has the courage of his own convictions, rather than one that was chopping and changing, without a master plan.
If that's the take, it's very similar to how Bora Milutinovich ran the US program from 91-94. Basically a defensive first and second approach with a handful of players given a bit of a free license to roam - but also expected to put in a shift. Those that failed to put in a shift were dropped or frozen out. Bora wanted banks of four to defend against opposition in possession. It worked here and there early on, but more so when the players learned the tactics, positioning, etc., after months of training and matches, and became evident in the 94 WC the tactics were correct for the limited talent available.
The difference here is that Bora inherited a program full of amateurs, semi-pros, and indoor players (until he was able to find some foreign players with American ties and nurture a few youths) versus LGV using seasoned professionals at the top tier of the sport. But perhaps LVG needs a year to implement his plan so the players eventually get it down. Perhaps he can sign a couple top class defenders this summer and find that creative spark in midfield. Perhaps then it will start to come together.
Perhaps LGV is using these tactics to keep the weak and oft injured back four from being overran. In which case, it's a quite brilliant strategy - protect the back four by holding possession (similar to Barca but minus the creativity). There's just no creativity out there either due to the tactics or the individual performances, perhaps a combination of. Then again, perhaps I haven't the foggiest idea what I'm talking about!
It's not really as black and white as that, else Blind wouldn't have had scored this season. The intention is that goals come after an action by a creative player, but if a non-creative player gets the ball and sees a good opportunity to score of course they can take it. It's all about risk, and not taking it in the wrong position when your teammates aren't expecting it. Smalling can shoot at goal as long as it's not a risky option which can cost the team.
Fellaini as plan B isn't really hoofball either. It adds another dimension at the cost of good passing. We don't aimlessly lump it to him for the remainder of the game as that wouldn't be effective. We still play the same game but just have the option to lump it when the passing doesn't work.
You're right. It fits with results and performances we've witnessed so far this season. I'm beginning to understand this philosophy lark. Basically, we're reliant on the front three, and attacking midfielder to be at their best or we pretty much become a bore fest.
A Fabregas type would probably go a long ways to solving the midfield issues. But I still feel defense should be the second and third priority, immediately after signing De Gea long-term (very concerned about his future).
Hasn't Blind scored most of his goals when we've been behind or drawing and had nothing to lose?
I'm going to taken to task by @Pexbo as soon as he reads my responses. 
I'll have to find somewhere else to hang out.
I'll have to find somewhere else to hang out.
I can now understand why Gary Neville said Blind takes the easy option and does not make forward passes (something to this effect). The guy is carrying out orders.
PS: He's my player of the season so far.
lol the real Fabregas moved clubs 8 months ago for a mere £28million. Maybe we should have...You know tried harder to sign him.
If Lvg's perfect team relies so much on the number 10, wouldn't it be a bit easy for the other side to stand on said number 10, in the knowledge that the other feckers wouldn't be allowed to adapt to what was happening?
Thanks for another terrific post @NL Max I have to say, its a very complicated process (maybe too complicated imho?) so its no wonder the players are taking a while to adapt.
One question I do have though, is if the #10 is so important to LVG, why is Fellaini playing there, and why can't Mata get a look in? Does LVG just not rate the Spaniard?
One question I do have though, is if the #10 is so important to LVG, why is Fellaini playing there, and why can't Mata get a look in? Does LVG just not rate the Spaniard?
Ah you're right, that's a wrong example. It's all about risks though, van Gaal wants to drag the opposition out of position for a creative player to make something happen with risks. He doesn't forbid a non-creative player to score or assist though, if it happens to be a non-creative player that does it it's great. He loves his 'fentestik kools'. Everyone can have a pop as long as they don't take a risk or succeed. Fail and it leaves your teammates in trouble because they don't expect you to do it and are all positioned on the pitch to attack, as per gameplan. That's why we don't see alot of it.
@712
If that's the case then we still have 3 other creative players and it will expose non-creative players to have a risk-free option at goal, making them more dangerous.
@Sam
Like I posted before, Mata is someone I'm not sure about. He's done the same thing to Sneijder and Herrera but he seems like the perfect player for him. He might wants to change him a little bit to get the best out of him for the team like with Sneijder at Holland. He was going to CHEER! if Sneijder captured the ball, Sneijder ran more KM's and defended more than he's ever done.
(at 00:20)
We now see see Herrera trying to play as a real box-to-box midfielder.
I think it has to do with defensive workrate. At the moment we're struggling for defensive midfielders. He's got no box-to-box player and is playing Herrera who isn't great yet defensively. That means he's lacking his 4th defensive player. Fellaini his preferred position is #10 and he's done well this season. He's giving him a chance to prove himself at that position because he's earned it.
Mata could leave, we won't know untill the club or him come out with a statement or when the next transfer window ends. I hope he stays, not sure.
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I'm sorry but I just don't see that everything he has done was for a reason and part of a grand plan. Let's look at some of his ideas and tactics that were obvious mistakes.
1. Rooney in midfield. If LvG had done his homework and watched tape of Rooney in midfield he would have realized it had little chance of succeeding. SAF only used Rooney as a last resort, LvG really seemed to think this was an answer.
2. 3-5-2 with no midfield wingers. Playing narrow was never going to advance us as a team and make us more competitive. If anything I think we regressed and lost a couple of months of development. This was simply on over reaction to Leicester. A far better reaction would have been to play 4 in the back and get them organized. The other point is Old Trafford is a wide pitch and good wing play was always a part of our success. To ignore this made little sense and can't be part of a grand plan.
3. Playing Rooney, RvP and Falcao in the same team. I think most managers would have realized that this front line was always going to be too slow to threaten defenses. LvG, however, stuck with this much too long. Even if Falcao and RvP were in form this lineup is too one dimensional. In addition, none of them were known for great passing so it was highly unlikely they would form a good tandem.
4. Playing Di Maria as a forward. Made no sense.
5. His substitutions have been baffling in some instances.
I'm sure I could l think of more. I really feel that if LvG had tinkered less and played players in their natural position we would be more like Liverpool right now. Instead we are still trying to find the right lineup and some good form. And I strongly feel this fact will see us out of the top 4.
Understand, I am not saying he should be fired. I firmly believe he should stay until Christmas of next year. If there is no evident progress by then he must go. He has just made too many mistakes to give him the benefit of the doubt for a longer period.
1. Rooney in midfield. If LvG had done his homework and watched tape of Rooney in midfield he would have realized it had little chance of succeeding. SAF only used Rooney as a last resort, LvG really seemed to think this was an answer.
2. 3-5-2 with no midfield wingers. Playing narrow was never going to advance us as a team and make us more competitive. If anything I think we regressed and lost a couple of months of development. This was simply on over reaction to Leicester. A far better reaction would have been to play 4 in the back and get them organized. The other point is Old Trafford is a wide pitch and good wing play was always a part of our success. To ignore this made little sense and can't be part of a grand plan.
3. Playing Rooney, RvP and Falcao in the same team. I think most managers would have realized that this front line was always going to be too slow to threaten defenses. LvG, however, stuck with this much too long. Even if Falcao and RvP were in form this lineup is too one dimensional. In addition, none of them were known for great passing so it was highly unlikely they would form a good tandem.
4. Playing Di Maria as a forward. Made no sense.
5. His substitutions have been baffling in some instances.
I'm sure I could l think of more. I really feel that if LvG had tinkered less and played players in their natural position we would be more like Liverpool right now. Instead we are still trying to find the right lineup and some good form. And I strongly feel this fact will see us out of the top 4.
Understand, I am not saying he should be fired. I firmly believe he should stay until Christmas of next year. If there is no evident progress by then he must go. He has just made too many mistakes to give him the benefit of the doubt for a longer period.
To be fair, for any team, if the front three and the attacking midfielder are not at their best then they will play bore fest football. Think city with aguero, silva, nasri, navas having a "stinker". A third of your team is too many players to carry at this level. Sure you might still win but dont expect fantastic football. So I am not sure what you expect LVG to do differently.
If any teams front four aren't performing they're not going to do well, that's not a consequence of just our tactics.
That would be the case with the best player in any system, yet the impression you gave was that LVG's number 10 is particularly crucial, which seems an obvious vulnerability to me. I thought Dutch football was all about flexibility, and yet you're describing it as extremely regimented.
1. Louis van Gaal isn't the first to try it. We've got 3 big wage strikers on our books, we have no box-to-box player which he wants and Rooney offers an incredible amount of workrate. He's also our captain and undroppable. It makes sense to at least try it, a player in a new position doesn't always perform instantly. He needed more games to fully asses it, too much change isn't good either.
2. He had little time to asses the squad. Transfers are not like FM but more complicated, especially with high wages and needing to sell our own players. He did incredible so far in getting rid of 'deadwood players'. He couldn't buy a complete new team in 1 transfer window. Too much change could be catastophical so he bought players for 352. He just used it at the worldcup and in preseason and it offered him stability for our not-so-great backline. It worked in preseason so why not try it? He lacked defensive midfielders but as long as he has 4 defensive players (3CB+1DM) he's happy. It's an obvious solution for one of his rules. He was going to give 352 a try this season but he's dropped it when it became obvious it wasn't working. He couldn't buy players for a 433, but I think he's going to play this in his 2nd season. Januari isn't a good time for transfers either.
3. These players earn 200k+ a week. You at least have to try it, we had the 4 defensive players so why not? Hindsight is a beauty and it's not easy for any club when all your strikers are out of form. Falcao made an assist for van Persie, you could see them cross runs to opposite posts. He rates van Persie as a creative player because of his great first touch. He saw good moments.
4. Robben at the worldcup. Their defense had a slow backline, we lacked pace up front. Does he play there anymore? Nope, it made sense to try it.
5. Name any substitution.
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Interesting thread. Good read, too.
One question I want to ask is, if Van Gaal's number 10 is pivotal to the way the team plays and he needs four defensive players, then why doesn't he swap Herrera and Fellaini round, or maybe put in Mata for Herrera, giving us a base of Blind/Carrick and Felllaini, with Herrera/Mata as the number 10?
I mean, yes Fellaini can be a nuisance up top, but he won't control a game and create chances like Herrera or Mata will do. And if you look at our last couple of games, we seem to lack that final pass in the final third.
If we were to put Fellaini next to Blind, he can do everything pretty simple (like you said Van Gaal wants his midfielders to do), but can also add physical presence, as he shown when played in the deeper role before. Therefore, our four defensive players would be say Smalling, Rojo, Blind and Fellaini.
I'd much prefer a midfield of:
Herrera - Blind
Fellaini
One question I want to ask is, if Van Gaal's number 10 is pivotal to the way the team plays and he needs four defensive players, then why doesn't he swap Herrera and Fellaini round, or maybe put in Mata for Herrera, giving us a base of Blind/Carrick and Felllaini, with Herrera/Mata as the number 10?
I mean, yes Fellaini can be a nuisance up top, but he won't control a game and create chances like Herrera or Mata will do. And if you look at our last couple of games, we seem to lack that final pass in the final third.
If we were to put Fellaini next to Blind, he can do everything pretty simple (like you said Van Gaal wants his midfielders to do), but can also add physical presence, as he shown when played in the deeper role before. Therefore, our four defensive players would be say Smalling, Rojo, Blind and Fellaini.
I'd much prefer a midfield of:
Fellaini - Blind
Herrera
Then:Herrera
Herrera - Blind
Fellaini
His most sacred rule is don't lose possesion as a CDM. It leaves everyone disorganised and is catastrophical for counters. He tried Fellaini there, defensively he was okay but he kept losing possesion with his passes. Fellaini his preferred position is #10 and he did well attacking wise, so now he's getting a chance (he said this). He could try it again if Fellaini doesn't take his chance at #10, I'm not sure.
I disagree. Fellaini, when playing in the deeper role, was pretty neat and tidy, except for the Southampton game, where everyone was losing it.
As for Fellaini's preferred position, it's actually a CDM.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...ould-prefer-to-play-as-a-defensive-midfielder
I think it's more an outlet when teams press us high. We often go back to De Gea and Fellaini is a fantastic target further up, he can bring the ball down even under pressure and then we start building attacks in the final third with their front players committed. You do this a few times, teams become more reluctant to press us higher up the field if they're going to get taken out of the game and then we can start building up from the back and revert to plan A.
This could well be true. 2 strikers wasn't working out for us but at least it meant the opposition couldn't press up high, Fellaini can make a great target man and I think Louis van Gaal just prefers him more in that role. It could change, with him you never know but it's a good way to take pressure off the defence.
Nice thread, very interesting, and seems to fit what LvGs attempted so far, enjoyed reading.
Solution: Sell Fellaini... all problems associated to him would be solved.
You'd still have full backs and midfielders allowed to take risks with other systems.To be fair, for any team, if the front three and the attacking midfielder are not at their best then they will play bore fest football. Think city with aguero, silva, nasri, navas having a "stinker". A third of your team is too many players to carry at this level. Sure you might still win but dont expect fantastic football. So I am not sure what you expect LVG to do differently.
Fellaini can't play hold up football.
I can't believe you're being so literal? Do you really think the other players are completely shackled?
He's a hard taskmaster. If I was a player I'd be taking his instructions literally.
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It all sounds and probably is very complicated and especially in England where the game isn't that tactical and a lot of players hardly think too much when playing (mostly English players, but to a lesser degree also some foreign ones), this whole process will probably take even longer than at his previous clubs.
And while players look confused on the pitch at times, they still 100 % look to me that they are completely behind the manager and I am sure especially the English players and young players in general will learn a lot from him for their future career. I also get the feeling they are really happy working under him.
If it all works well then at the end of this process (and this might be with another manager) we will see a team which thinks more than they have been in previous years but which at the same time plays more intuitive than we are playing now, or let's say which is capable of thinking and playing quickly at the same time, which sounds great to me.
BUT this all will lose some relevance if we don't make the CL for next year (players might lose confidence, pressure will increase, we will lose money, no CL for 2 years for a club like United is bad no matter how we try to dress it up, etc.). And I think LvG knows it and that might be the reason for some of his very weird decisions (because sometimes he needs to compromise with his own "philosophy" to get us immediate results whic we need for CL qualification).
And while players look confused on the pitch at times, they still 100 % look to me that they are completely behind the manager and I am sure especially the English players and young players in general will learn a lot from him for their future career. I also get the feeling they are really happy working under him.
If it all works well then at the end of this process (and this might be with another manager) we will see a team which thinks more than they have been in previous years but which at the same time plays more intuitive than we are playing now, or let's say which is capable of thinking and playing quickly at the same time, which sounds great to me.
BUT this all will lose some relevance if we don't make the CL for next year (players might lose confidence, pressure will increase, we will lose money, no CL for 2 years for a club like United is bad no matter how we try to dress it up, etc.). And I think LvG knows it and that might be the reason for some of his very weird decisions (because sometimes he needs to compromise with his own "philosophy" to get us immediate results whic we need for CL qualification).
Well it's not like he had much time for careful planning though is it. He was coaching Holland at a world cup, took us over in July and the season started 3 weeks later.
So of course his signings were going to be based on availability. He still brought in 4 and sold/loaned 8-10 players. Which is not bad in a short space of time when you consider for example Moyes had from March/April until August and only signed one player and made no decisions on shifting anyone on.
Exactly, it is just like any job. Players wouldn't often go against their manager's instructions because at the end of the day he is their boss. Do what you are told and you can't be held accountable, take a risk and arse up and you will probably get dropped.He's a hard taskmaster. If I was a player I'd be taking his instructions literally.
Last season there was much gnashing and wailing of teeth over our inability to keep hold of the ball. That's been fixed and some. Now we've learnt how to keep the fecking thing, and as a result also protect that chocolate fireguard of a defence we have, stage 2 is going to be how we use it (principally cutting edge final 3rd) It's about building solid foundations
The problem I have with it is that the system works best when the opposition are unprepared and slow. Which PL teams these days are actually unprepared? I know we all make Big-Sam jokes, but does anyone really think that he is unable to brief his team on what to expect or on how to play against it? Which teams are slower than us in attack? LvG teams classically have used superior fitness as part of their weaponry (as did United a few years back) but the game's caught up. Every PL team has its nutritionists, sports scientists, Prozone analysis, individual training plans etc.
If you know that your opponent prioritises keeping the ball and will pass it back under pressure - why chase them around and get out of position, just wait until they come up your end and push them back. If you do get the ball in the middle third, run up to the United end fast, because United won't be ready to defend because our players aren't supposed to lose the ball there.
I appreciate the idea of perfectionism, but it kind of overlooks the fact that there's an opponent and that in the modern game they've almost all got managers who may not be geniuses or innovators, but who aren't actually naïve.
I really do believe in the "it may all just click into place" and then we can do it at a faster pace, with a more fluid style. But meanwhile the fact that a last minutes Plan C "throw a big guy up front to cause havoc", is now our main Plan B, and actually closer to being a Plan A than a sharp passing game that uses the midfield linking to the attack, is more depressing than reassuring.
If you know that your opponent prioritises keeping the ball and will pass it back under pressure - why chase them around and get out of position, just wait until they come up your end and push them back. If you do get the ball in the middle third, run up to the United end fast, because United won't be ready to defend because our players aren't supposed to lose the ball there.
I appreciate the idea of perfectionism, but it kind of overlooks the fact that there's an opponent and that in the modern game they've almost all got managers who may not be geniuses or innovators, but who aren't actually naïve.
I really do believe in the "it may all just click into place" and then we can do it at a faster pace, with a more fluid style. But meanwhile the fact that a last minutes Plan C "throw a big guy up front to cause havoc", is now our main Plan B, and actually closer to being a Plan A than a sharp passing game that uses the midfield linking to the attack, is more depressing than reassuring.
Most of the top sides play the ball out from defence but we seem to linger for a moment. That moment is enough in top flight football. Several clubs have used this time to press us into our own half. We need faster movement and passing forward to get inside the opponents half and push them back. The constant use of side passes in our own half during the first ten minutes allows the opposition to reform and reshape. Hence we have a struggle to take control of games. Once LVG cures this problem I think it will inject pace back into our attacks and counters.
@jojojo What you are describing is only a part of the system, at the moment we lack the players who makes the system works, we lack the winger who run behind the CBs and the striker who run towards the wings.
Like the OP said there is 4 creative players in this system and we only have two of them, the 10 and Di Maria, in this system it's not the passing play who will create room but the runs without the ball.
Like the OP said there is 4 creative players in this system and we only have two of them, the 10 and Di Maria, in this system it's not the passing play who will create room but the runs without the ball.
All well and good, I can see what LVG is doing. TBH though, I realy don't like managers who are so rigid in they way they have to play, they can't adapt accordingly to the skillset of the squad/team.
He can adapt but he has been signed with the mission of transforming the club and giving a clear style to the team, he is not here to grind results with the players he already has.
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