Ludo Draft QF: Onenil vs harms

Who will win this match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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.................................... Team Onenil ................................................Team harms ......................



Team Onenil

The 1970s were fast times of wild and memorable characters. Before the era of big money but after the first round of televised World Cups, the North American Soccer League embodies much of fun and eccentricity of this beautiful era. Boasting the best players of the decade like Cruyff and Beckenbauer we return you to these wild and fun times. A time before cynical monetization where you can connect with your inner child and just root for your favorite players who played for pure passion for being the best not being the wealthiest.

Our defense of Nílton Santos, Der Kaiser and his trusted lieutenant Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck, and Carlos Alberto forms an extremely accomplished platform for the team, with three or the quartet being enshrined in the World Team of the 20th Century (and considered among the greatest in their respective roles):



In goal, Sepp Maier was the core of Germany’s World Cup and European Championship winning defense and Bayern’s trio of European Cups with Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck — and was voted 4th in the World Keeper of the Century poll.



In total, they have won 6 World Cups between them — 2 of them as captains (in 1970 and 1974), and as such, they can handle a variety of potent attacking combinations thrown at them by the opposition team.

Our midfield of Falcão, Neeskens with Jansen is one of the best all-around trios possible in this draft or others — offering a heady blend of technique, tactical intelligence, industry...and proficiency in just about every of the games. Johan Neeskens reprises his fabled right-sided point forward role for Ajax and the Netherlands — allowing him to irrepressibly dovetail with Johan I in a re-enactment of one of the most successful and most exhilarating forward-midfielder acts in football history.

Like Beckenbauer in defense, Paulo Roberto Falcão is going to be the primary playmaker of this portion of the pitch given his box-to-box movement, determined dribbling, exemplary range of passing (long and short) and overall architectural ability. Supporting the base is Wim Jansen performing the holding role he perfected with Feyenoord and the Netherlands, allowing Falcão and Neeskens the freedom to exert maximum influence on the match as twin box-to-box shunts — with Jansen and Neeskens' chemistry with Cruyff being a sweet bonus.

Johan Cruyff, the Clockwork Orange and the quintessential False 9, leads our attack as the primary playmaker of that portion of the pitch — constantly probing the opposition defense for passing/dribbling/goal-scoring opportunities and trying to disorganize the backline with his elaborate movement, and is complemented by two Dutch players in Rob Rensenbrink (aka Slangenmens, Dutch for Snake Man)...who famously excelled with Cruyff for the Oranje and then subsequently the nation to another final in 1978:


And Arjen Robben...whose rapid and incisive playing style complements the older Dutch players impeccably — synergizing the attack into a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts, and that is true for other parts of the pitch, too — considering the commonality in approach and overall ideology, as well as the fact that 9 of the Starting XI have played with each other (which should enhance their interpersonal chemistry).

Team harms

The ball is round, the game lasts 90 minutes, everything else is just theory. We all love this game, and one of the best things about it is its unpredictability. Cruyff himself knows all about it — two of his biggest losses, that came 20 years apart, were the perfect illustration of how reality doesn't care about the odds. 1994 CL final would be my template for this game — not tactically, but ideologically. And it's not a surprise that the star of that evening is given the central role here.


"Barcelona are favourites," Cruyff said. "We're more complete, competitive and experienced than [in the 1992 final] at Wembley. Milan are nothing out of this world. They base their game on defence, we base ours on attack." To illustrate the point, Cruyff noted that while he had signed Romário, the Brazilian who had scored 30 in 33 games, Milan had spent the same on Marcel Desailly. "That," he said, "is telling." "Cruyff's words were inappropriate and really struck the team," Billy Costacurta recalled. "Had they not been, things might have been different."

The comedy show Crakovia does a satirical sketch of that final. In it, Cruyff's tactics board has no tactics, just a message: "Barcelona, champions." It's not a million miles from the truth. "We went there to collect the cup, not to compete for it," recalls one member of the backroom staff. Charly Rexach, the assistant coach, is explicit: "We didn't prepare; we lacked concentration. Athens was the beginning of the end."

Cruyff's team talk at Wembley had been: "Go out and enjoy yourselves". His team-talk in Athens was: "You're better than them, you're going to win." In 1992, he was hailed as a genius. In 1994, he was derided as a fool.

While Johan Cruyff was busy creating images of his own, famously posing with the trophy in the lead-up to the match, Savićević was silently plotting and would emerge the other side of that tense night with his hands firmly wrapped around the silver trophy for real and not as part of a misguided stunt. Because that was the sort of character Savićević was – he believed in his own ability.

“The press, especially the foreign media, had given us no hope,” Maldini said when reminiscing about the game, per Jonathan Wilson’s Inverting the Pyramid. “Barcelona were certainly a good side, but we knew they had weaknesses and how to exploit them and we went for it, ruthlessly.”

Dejan Savićević — the mercurial genius.

For this game, Savićević moves to the number 10 position, where he had played the best football of his career. Despite his heroics in 1994 final, his Milan form was inconsistent — and his real peak came a bit earlier, when he shined as the biggest star of Crvena Zvezda team that won the European Cup in 1991. The Montenegrin relished the free role magnanimously given to him by his manager, causing havoc with his movement, control and sublime dribbling — and finished as a runner up for the Ballon d'Or that year.

I've made a compilation of his amazing performance against Manchester United in the European Supercup — and I strongly suggest that you should watch it, not even because of this game but simply because it's sublime:


The art of defence.

On paper, in Franco Baresi and Paolo Maldini I have a half of the best defensive unit of all-time, but we all know that those two were more than that. In Baresi I have the best defensive organiser and the best defender of all-time — and Maldini can probably rival him in both categories. Costacurta and Tassotti were great players, but you could've put pretty much anyone with those two and they'd make an impregnable defence. Parker is a definite downgrade, but Chiellini fits like a glove here — I'm not sure that Costacurta was a better individual player, personally, and he can showcase his physicality and aggression with the Milan duo covering his back. Valery Voronin is probably the best defensive midfielder left in the draft with the scalps of the likes of Eusebio and Florian Albert in his trophy cabinet — Cruyff will found a difficult opponent in him.

Electric duo up front.

In George Weah and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge I have the perfect counter-attacking duo. Rummenigge was one of the best ever in finding the space behind the defenders and then finishing the attack in a spectacular fashion — that's why his partnership with Breitner was so effective. Weah was a different player, who combined incredible pace and dribbling ability with the physique of a heavyweight boxer. As Thierry Henry said: "In the history of the game, I have never seen power and speed like George Weah". But the goal that I want to show is not his goal — it's a goal by a certain Franco Baresi:

 

harms

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You've put Jansen there and not Bonhof? :(
 

harms

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All the best, @oneniltothearsenal @Invictus. You have a fantastic side.

There were some concerns about Schuster on the left in my previous game, so I've put some highlights on streamable — he wandered to the left quite often.

Runs down the wing:


Passing:


A few goals:

 

harms

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By the way, it's interesting that Mendieta doesn't get picked that often, although he was really one of the best players at the break of the centuries. I mean, it takes some player to be voted UEFA's best midfielder 2 times in a row when the likes of Keane, Vieira, Davids, Redondo and others were at their very best!

Even I wasn't planning to pick him — I've had my eyes on Bergomi and would've picked him if not for the Edgar's shit surprise. Imagine the back line of Maldini-Chellini-Baresi-Bergomi with Voronin as a holding midfielder...
 

Invictus

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You've put Jansen there and not Bonhof? :(
The biggest travesty, IMO, was the lukewarm reception the midfield of Breitner-Falcão-Neeskens received in the previous round — though it would be the center-piece of the team, a totes vote-magnet given their individual pedigree, and a relatively straighforward sell as a basic box-to-box + deeplying-playmaker + box-to-box setup with them intermittently changing positions is a loosely defined carousel, but it didn't take because of the lack of a pure holding midfielder (and Bonhof could have been a target for criticism along those lines because he also operated as a box-to-box and wingback over his career), so Jansen as the dedicated holder/anchor was the way to go given his history with Neeskens and Van Hanegem in a similarly structured midfield trio. A good fit with Beckenbauer too because he could occasionally drop into defense — giving the former the freedom to periodically influence the game around Savicević.

Anyway, good luck! :)
 

Zlatan 7

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Great rock and roll team and reasoning for Jansen. I’ll have a more thorough read through the posts later
 

Gio

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By the way, it's interesting that Mendieta doesn't get picked that often, although he was really one of the best players at the break of the centuries. I mean, it takes some player to be voted UEFA's best midfielder 2 times in a row when the likes of Keane, Vieira, Davids, Redondo and others were at their very best!

Even I wasn't planning to pick him — I've had my eyes on Bergomi and would've picked him if not for the Edgar's shit surprise. Imagine the back line of Maldini-Chellini-Baresi-Bergomi with Voronin as a holding midfielder...
Yeah, Mendieta's peak was immense in a strong era for central midfielders. Nice role you've carved out for him here.

The defence looks brilliant and Chiellini would be perfect there. Pity about Parker though, Rensenbrink would give him twisted blood.
 

Synco

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Can anyone tell me a bit more about Nilton? He's universally regarded as a historically great LB, and not uncommonly as the greatest of all (see the World Team of the 20th Century inclusion, for example).

What I get from earlier draft discussions is that he's not seen as an overlapping attacking fullback, but also as not as much of a defensive one as Djalma. Is he a case like Yashin, someone who heavily influenced the interpretation and achievable standards of his position? What are his characteristics, what made him great? Do you consider his reputation to be 100% justified?
 

harms

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The defence looks brilliant and Chiellini would be perfect there. Pity about Parker though, Rensenbrink would give him twisted blood.
Yeah, I’m not the biggest fan of Chiellini but he would’ve been a great fit in between Baresi and Maldini, it’s a role where his strengths are highlighted and weaknesses are perfectly hidden. Another bonus would be that with Bergomi it would’ve been an all-Italian backline.

But Parker sticks out like a sore thumb here :lol: Although even with Bergomi I would’ve probably lost it, their team is just too good.
 

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The biggest travesty, IMO, was the lukewarm reception the midfield of Breitner-Falcão-Neeskens received in the previous round — though it would be the center-piece of the team, a totes vote-magnet given their individual pedigree, and a relatively straighforward sell as a basic box-to-box + deeplying-playmaker + box-to-box setup with them intermittently changing positions is a loosely defined carousel, but it didn't take because of the lack of a pure holding midfielder (and Bonhof could have been a target for criticism along those lines because he also operated as a box-to-box and wingback over his career), so Jansen as the dedicated holder/anchor was the way to go given his history with Neeskens and Van Hanegem in a similarly structured midfield trio. A good fit with Beckenbauer too because he could occasionally drop into defense — giving the former the freedom to periodically influence the game around Savicević.

Anyway, good luck! :)
Indeed - shame to see that majestic trio broken up, although Jansen fits well there too.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Bonhof could have been a target for criticism along those lines because he also operated as a box-to-box and wingback over his career)
To be fair he has operated in so many roles, including the DM role.

Personally I'd have picked him over Jansen all day long. Not just because he is the miles better player, but also because of his Dutch roots.

From an old match of mine -

Not many people here probably know that Bonhof actually had a Dutch nationality when he was young. So he was friends with the lads from the Dutch team.

Sometime after the WC (not exactly sure when), there was a tribute party for Bonhof and Cruyff was invited as well.

This is how Bonhof tells the story

I remember that on the day of my tribute party, I invited Johan [Cruyff] and he told me. "You should have played with us." And I said: "You had Neeskens; they (Germans) needed a Bonhof. "
That is how high Cruyff rated him. Good enough to play in his team. To call him a free pass player is as ludicrous as it gets.
 
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harms

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Can anyone tell me a bit more about Nilton? He's universally regarded as a historically great LB, and not uncommonly as the greatest of all (see the World Team of the 20th Century inclusion, for example).

What I get from earlier draft discussions is that he's not seen as an overlapping attacking fullback, but also as not as much of a defensive one as Djalma. Is he a case like Yashin, someone who heavily influenced the interpretation and achievable standards of his position? What are his characteristics, what made him great? Do you consider his reputation to be 100% justified?
It’s hard to find a good analogy for him, but I think he would’ve relished in Pep’s City team. Silky smooth on the ball and a great dribbler and playmaker from left back position without being a consistent overlapper. He also didn’t rely on his physique as much as the likes of Cafu/Carlos (or even Djalma if we talk about his time) and was more intelligent in his defensive approach, although he was still very strong and capable of a mean tackle. Hence his nickname “the Encyclopedia”.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Can anyone tell me a bit more about Nilton? He's universally regarded as a historically great LB, and not uncommonly as the greatest of all (see the World Team of the 20th Century inclusion, for example).

What I get from earlier draft discussions is that he's not seen as an overlapping attacking fullback, but also as not as much of a defensive one as Djalma. Is he a case like Yashin, someone who heavily influenced the interpretation and achievable standards of his position? What are his characteristics, what made him great? Do you consider his reputation to be 100% justified?
I find his reputation fairly justifiable.

Defensively, I found him very strong and alert. Not gung ho at all and usually matched some of the best players of his time (Also failed miserable against the likes of Matthews and there are the training stories with Garrincha). He was also very lucky in the sense that he had Zagallo ahead of him. I have watched him specifically over the last few days and boy, he tracked all the way back to the byline and made sure Nilton always had support.

When it came to attacking, his style of attacking was very similar to Djalma's to an extent.

People usually put a forward arrow on Djalma or dismiss him as non attacking. Both are wrong extremes. Djalma like Nilton also acted like a playmaker from deep in the wings. Djalma I have never seen overlap or run forward.

Nilton actually used his right foot a lot more than he needed to (some awkward body shapes if you watch his full games).

The difference between Nilton and Djalma comes w.r.t to how far ahead they went. From what I have seen -

1. Nilton, never overlapped with Zagallo.
2. But Nilton did cross the half way line and did put crosses into the box., But they were crosses from deep. Like the ones Beckham used to.
3. His curling with the left foot was pretty good (Watch the 3rd or 4th goal from the 1958 WC final. His cross/assist results in Pele scoring the goal). It was a cross from deep and not one from a overlap. You'd always find Zagallo ahead of him.

If I had to find a relatively modern equivalent to Nilton, I'd say it would be Brehme from the right. I think @Gio or @Invictus posted a video of Brehme from the right in one of their games. I found the styles very similar. (maybe Brehme did overlap a bit)

Bonhof from wingback position is also a very good example of the Nilton style of play.
 
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Šjor Bepo

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Problem with Nilton is that all the games we can see are most likely post peak so its not really fair reflection of his game.
 

harms

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Nilton actually used his right foot a lot more than he needed to (some awkward body shapes if you watch his full games).
I'm pretty sure that he was right-footed, although now that I've tried to google that, The Guardian and The Telegraph both mentioned that he was left-footed in their obituaries. Weird.

edit: He was right-footed, they're all just talking bollocks.

If I had to find a relatively modern equivalent to Nilton, I'd say it would be Brehme from the right. I think @Gio or @Invictus posted a video of Brehme from the right in one of their games. I found the styles very similar. (maybe Brehme did overlap a bit)
It was one of mine. Not sure that I'm fully behind the comparison though, I feel like Brehme was one of the very few players that didn't really change his playing style depending on the wing he was playing at. Although there were some similarities between them in general.

 
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Synco

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Cheers @harms & @GodShaveTheQueen, very interesting.
Djalma like Nilton also acted like a playmaker from deep in the wings.
From what I've read, Carlos Alberto may have been (roughly) similar as well in that regard, more of an intelligent and measured two-thirds buildup player than an attacking fullback in a modern sense.

In any case, Beckenbauer and the two Brazilians should give onevictus's team an extremely crafty buildup play from the back. I also suspect that even Maier would be a capable buildup keeper in the backpass rule era, as he appeared to be a fine footballer. It only shines through in a few moments, since he almost never needed it, but it's my impression.

A damn great team all around, and perhaps we can convince the managers to include Bonhof in the next round.
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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Problem with Nilton is that all the games we can see are most likely post peak so its not really fair reflection of his game.
I am not sure about the fair reflection part. He looked really fit in 1958 too although on the wrong side of 30.

Maybe it wasn't a fair reflection of his peak but I would guess it was a fair reflection of his play.
 

Invictus

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To be fair he has operated in so many roles, including the DM role.

Personally I'd have picked him over Jansen all day long.
Yep, this is why we took him ahead of Jansen/Haan in the initial drafting phase! :)

Bonhof was supposed to be the nominal starter for Round 1 before we selected Nílton to replace Breitner at leftback (freeing up the latter for a midfield role)...


It's just...Jansen + Neeskens seemed like a very straightforward “sell” and wouldn't be questioned as a holistic fit given their combined history, so we went along with the risk-averse approach.

Regarding the general Nílton Santos discussion, it's hard to contrast him with anyone else with a great deal of specificity — but weirdly enough, I found that certain aspects of his game bore favorable comparison with Krol: at face-value both seemed ice cold individuals so that's a start, both tended to press effectively in the defensive phase (which was key to the strategy of their teams), came across as similarly intelligent/cultured defenders in the way they read the game and positioned themselves to neutralize threats before they gained momentum.

Maybe not comparable overlappers when you look at old Nílton, who was in physical decline, with the younger version of Krol at Ajax (who was a fitter, more industrious and more committed on the outside flank) but both were comfortable/skillful on the ball as playmakers and wouldn't look out of place in a modern Guardiola team. Quite powerful and physically capable too, which helped them transition to centerback/sweeper...Nílton played at the position for Botafogo over the years — and middle-aged/older Krol excelled in that role. And the former also played as an LCB in 1954, like in the cynical Battle of Bern (before he supposedly revolutionized football as the first great attacking full-back):
Video evidence for a lot of Nílton Santos' best defensive displays (to corroborate the purple-prose eulogies) is hard to come by, but he famously helped limit the record-breaking axis of Fontaine and Kopa in 1958 with a litany of key interventions in a genuinely noteworthy defensive display (though upstaged by baby Pelé and Didi in terms of the wider plaudits)...



http://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2013/07/1958-world-cup-combined-goal-assist.html


* Maldini vs. Romário e Bebeto is a great watch as well — Baresi played a match that has gone down in history, but Capitan Futuro was fantastic in his own right at the Rose Bowl.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Cheers @harms & @GodShaveTheQueen, very interesting.

From what I've read, Carlos Alberto may have been (roughly) similar as well in that regard, more of an intelligent and measured two-thirds buildup player than an attacking fullback in a modern sense.

In any case, Beckenbauer and the two Brazilians should give onevictus's team an extremely crafty buildup play from the back. I also suspect that even Maier would be a capable buildup keeper in the backpass rule era, as he appeared to be a fine footballer. It only shines through in a few moments, since he almost never needed it, but it's my impression.

A damn great team all around, and perhaps we can convince the managers to include Bonhof in the next round.
I reckon we are underrating modern keepers and overrating older ones when it comes to ability on the ball. We all just assume Yashin, Grocisc and co. are good enough(or would be good enough if they played today) to play it from the back but reality is they arent and with that we are undervaluing guys like Neuer, Ter Stegen, Ederson etc.
I mean just look at De Gea, reckon older ones that were great at it in their time would probably be at his level if they were playing today and he struggles, yet in drafts you can put him in a tiki taka side and nobody would mention a thing.
 

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I reckon we are underrating modern keepers and overrating older ones when it comes to ability on the ball. We all just assume Yashin, Grocisc and co. are good enough(or would be good enough if they played today) to play it from the back but reality is they arent and with that we are undervaluing guys like Neuer, Ter Stegen, Ederson etc.
I don't assume they'd be good enough, including Maier. I'm sure they wouldn't be good enough at the things that made them world class back then either. So I didn't mean to just beam 1970s Maier into the 2010s. It's more of a speculation on what kind of keeper he'd be in today's football, based on a few observations.

My guess is based on:

1) good ball handling, which I assume was ahead of then contemporary keeper standards
2) a quite fearless approach to proactive keeping, which in his time mostly showed on constantly challenging for high balls inside his box. (Like with today's proactive keepers, that tendency is also the main source of the mistakes I've seen from him. He could be a bit on the flappy side occasionally, but due to his basic quality the benefits of that approach greatly outweighed the downsides.)
3) he started as an outfield player (striker precisely, probably until about age 13-14), so he spent a good portion of his formative years developing a sense for that side of the game

Illustrative examples for a certain confidence on the ball are the casual flip in this video at 0:49, or the off-the-cuff sweep, outplaying of an opponent, and outside-of-the-foot pass in the 72 EURO final (footballia video at 42:10). Most keepers (and some stoppers) would have cleared the ball for a throw, Maier safely kept it in play in a high pressure situation.

It's just tiny hints, but that's roughly what I'm talking about.

It's nothing but speculation, of course. But it's one way of dealing with the fundamental problem of draft games: Trying to guess how players from different eras would play together on the same pitch, when in reality the absolute differences between these eras are unbridgeable. So there's a fictional environment in which they're somehow on the same level physically, technically, tactically. Necessarily, the rules of that approximation have to remain vague. I chose to "modernize" Maier in this case. A few days ago there was a short discussion about the same problem on the example of Picchi.
 
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Invictus

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Good game @harms, the scoreline is definitely harsh considering the strength of your team. And thanks for the kind words! :)
 

Šjor Bepo

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I don't assume they'd be good enough, including Maier. I'm sure they wouldn't be good enough at the things that made them world class back then either. So I didn't mean to just beam 1970s Maier into the 2010s. It's more of a speculation on what kind of keeper he'd be in today's football, based on a few observations.

My guess is based on:

1) good ball handling, which I assume was ahead of then contemporary keeper standards
2) a quite fearless approach to proactive keeping, which in his time mostly showed on constantly challenging for high balls inside his box. (Like with today's proactive keepers, that tendency is also the main source of the mistakes I've seen from him. He could be a bit on the flappy side occasionally, but due to his basic quality the benefits of that approach greatly outweighed the downsides.)
3) he started as an outfield player (striker precisely, probably until about age 13-14), so he spent a good portion of his formative years developing a sense for that side of the game

Illustrative examples for a certain confidence on the ball are the casual flip in this video at 0:49, or the off-the-cuff sweep, outplaying of an opponent, and outside-of-the-foot pass in the 72 EURO final (footballia video at 42:10). Most keepers (and some stoppers) would have cleared the ball for a throw, Maier safely kept it in play in a high pressure situation.

It's just tiny hints, but that's roughly what I'm talking about.

It's nothing but speculation, of course. But it's one way of dealing with the fundamental problem of draft games: Trying to guess how players from different eras would play together on the same pitch, when in reality the absolute differences between these eras are unbridgeable. So there's a fictional environment in which they're somehow on the same level physically, technically, tactically. Necessarily, the rules of that approximation have to remain vague. I chose to "modernize" Maier in this case. A few days ago there was a short discussion about the same problem on the example of Picchi.
Thats what i meant as well, didnt know those things about Maier so my comment was on keepers in general not him, reckon out of all "keeper sweepers" you would get around 15% at best that would reach the heights of today elite in that specific segment.
 

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I was hoping for a comeback when @green_smiley's vote came, but there wasn't enough time. You've got lucky there, @oneniltothearsenal @Invictus!

Great team as usual and it's hard to imagine anyone stopping you from winning this draft.
I really liked the Mendieta pick. Great player that I think is definitely a bit underrated in todays media environment sadly.
 

Synco

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Thats what i meant as well, didnt know those things about Maier so my comment was on keepers in general not him, reckon out of all "keeper sweepers" you would get around 15% at best that would reach the heights of today elite in that specific segment.
I agree with your general point, no question. And tbh, all these assumptions don't hold up to any scrutiny anyway - every player was a product of his time, his social & football environment, a whole decades-long individual biography. If Sepp Maier would have been born in 1985 he wouldn't have been Sepp Maier, plain and simple.

It's impossible to say what would happen if just a random number of football-related factors were different, while others are arbitrarily assumed to remain. Yet that's what we're doing all the time in draft discussions.

I guess my approach to draft games goes something like this:

1) historical player x was a world class player
2) he had a certain set of characteristic traits
3) if these characteristics were translated into a player of today (= shaped by modern sports medicine, modern tactics, modern training methods, contemporary rules): what kind of player would we get?
4) the world class label just remains unquestioned, even if the historical setting is vital to a player's performance level (see the Picchi discussion in the "back 3" thread, but I think this is generally true)

I'm also sure my criteria are actually all wobbly, and vary on a case-to-case basis. Other posters may have a different approach altogether.
 

Gio

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Thats what i meant as well, didnt know those things about Maier so my comment was on keepers in general not him, reckon out of all "keeper sweepers" you would get around 15% at best that would reach the heights of today elite in that specific segment.
Aye totally. The ball-playing requirements are almost immeasurably different. Any of the pre-1992 backpass keepers would struggle to different degrees. Even the 1990s guys were brought up and developed for a different set of rules than what they played in.
 

Synco

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Aye totally. The ball-playing requirements are almost immeasurably different. Any of the pre-1992 backpass keepers would struggle to different degrees. Even the 1990s guys were brought up and developed for a different set of rules than what they played in.
Absolutely true, but it's also the pink elephant in the room when playing draft games, if we're honest.

We assume Di Stefano would play at an all time great level against Davids & Redondo, when, if that actually happened, they'd eat him for breakfast. A well organized lower league team of today would probably beat an all time great team of the 50s. Lucas Vazquez as he is today would be an unstoppable force when playing in the 60s.

In these draft games, we have to kind of ignore the technical, tactical and physical progress of six decades to make these players play together and against each other on common ground. We let Schwarzenbeck play in a zonal defense, and fullbacks from the 60s cover wingers from the 2010s. At the same time we have to assume that these players somehow stay the same they actually were. That's logically impossible, but also inevitable when playing these games.
 

Gio

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Absolutely true, but it's also the pink elephant in the room when playing draft games, if we're honest.

We assume Di Stefano would play at an all time great level against Davids & Redondo, when, if that actually happened, they'd eat him for breakfast. A well organized lower league team of today would probably beat an all time great team of the 50s. Lucas Vazquez as he is today would be an unstoppable force when playing in the 60s.

In these draft games, we have to kind of ignore the technical, tactical and physical progress of six decades to make these players play together and against each other on common ground. We let Schwarzenbeck play in a zonal defense, and fullbacks from the 60s cover wingers from the 2010s. At the same time we have to assume that these players somehow stay the same they actually were. That's logically impossible, but also inevitable when playing these games.
True. Although I reckon a lot of the players from the 20s and 30s as well as the keepers from the pre-Beara/Yashin era suffer on those grounds.

There is the long-term progress and evolution angle, but you can also turn elements of that on its head given the different challenges players from yesteryear had to contend with. Heavy footballs, chunky boots, crap pitches and laissez-faire refereeing all make the spectacle look terrible in comparison to what we see in the modern game. And some of today's players would be better suited to adapting to those conditions than others.

We can compare across eras broadly in terms of quality, but we can also compare relative strengths. So for example set against a modern goalie, a typical 60/70s keeper would be poor with the ball at his feet, but would be more suited to going into a 50/50 aerial challenge with a towering centre-forward. Or an 80s man-marker would be more drilled in pure off-the-ball diligence and tracking runs, but would lack the modern defender's comfort on the ball. I'm sure you've seen it, but Schmeichel and Kahn make these points well here:

 

Synco

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you can also turn elements of that on its head given the different challenges players from yesteryear had to contend with. Heavy footballs, chunky boots, crap pitches and laissez-faire refereeing all make the spectacle look terrible in comparison to what we see in the modern game.
Yes, it's absolutely necessary to factor that in. It's an aspect where I try to translate historical players into modern conditions somewhat, to get a more realistic idea of their "true" level or untapped potential. The same goes for the level of interplay. Some players were visibly ahead of their time in that regard, and held back by their environment.

Thanks for the Schmeichel/Kahn interview, hadn't seen it so far.
 

harms

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I really think that top players that were known for their stamina will be alright in one game. I don’t think that Juan Mata is in a better physical condition than Di Stefano. The real difference will be visible over the course of a season, as they won’t be able to remain sharp during the run of 60 high intensity games. The diet and the modern medicine also make more difference in the long run.

I’ve linked this video many times. The difference in actual physical shape is not as big as it seems and the boots and the pitches actually make more difference.

The only huge difference is the tactical knowledge, but if it’s one player like Di Stefano put in a modern team in a free role, it’ll be okay. A whole team from the 50’s will be dismantled by any decent side from today, of course.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Absolutely true, but it's also the pink elephant in the room when playing draft games, if we're honest.

We assume Di Stefano would play at an all time great level against Davids & Redondo, when, if that actually happened, they'd eat him for breakfast. A well organized lower league team of today would probably beat an all time great team of the 50s. Lucas Vazquez as he is today would be an unstoppable force when playing in the 60s.

In these draft games, we have to kind of ignore the technical, tactical and physical progress of six decades to make these players play together and against each other on common ground. We let Schwarzenbeck play in a zonal defense, and fullbacks from the 60s cover wingers from the 2010s. At the same time we have to assume that these players somehow stay the same they actually were. That's logically impossible, but also inevitable when playing these games.
These are always tricky questions because the flip side has some valid points too: Messi and Cristiano have had superstar pampering since they were tweens and played entirely in an era with maximum ref protection. Neither of them has a clue what its like to be kicked, elbowed and have your gonads tugged on like the rough and tumble physical defenses George Best and Garrincha had to play against every week. Its entirely possible that Cristiano would have sustained far more injuries had he played in the 1960s (and not achieved the statistics he has currently) and Messi literally could not have even been a professional footballer before certain medical advances. Had Messi been born when Garrincha/Best were born he'd be a Chef Lionel something not in the GOAT debate.

This is why one of my first questions in my very first draft was are players basically normalized between eras for drafts because for me that's the only way we can vote in drafts otherwise we'd be debating the minutiae of differences between eras and contemporary does not always come out on top for me (Neither Messi nor Cristiano could goto Medical school while playing professional while drinking beers in between med school and practice like Socrates did ;)
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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That’s what I thought should have happened already :lol::D
I think you need to pick Di Stefano in one of the next drafts. I am sure you will eventually start liking him a hell lot more.

My perspective of lots of players has changed once I pick them and get to research more.

Best example for me personally is Zico. I really used to underrate him in the past.
 

Synco

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Some good arguments pro older players here.

Another one "against" current ones would probably be the lack of intricate interplay argument in my last post, when reversed - as we know, the performance level of top players is very dependent on a fitting collective environment. Likely to a much higher extent than it used to be when collective play was on a lower standard. That kind of support would be lacking.

But the flip side of the flip side is that defenses were much less organized as well, so it would be easier to rely on individual skill. They'd enjoy plenty of time and space & all the doubling/tripling that helps to contain them today wouldn't happen. I'd back Messi and Ronaldo to usually get the better of their man markers in 1 on 1s (and also dodge plenty of fouls), even under more unfavorable playing conditions. But they'd still be hacked down often enough...

Heads explode.