LV Monopoly draft - QF2: harms vs Tuppet

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

............................... TEAM HARMS ................................................................... TEAM TUPPET ..............................

TEAM HARMS

Spoiler: Player roles

Pat Jennings - goalkeeper
Andreas Brehme - attacking left-back
Alessandro Nesta - complete defender
Fernando Hierro - ball-playing defender
Berti Vogts - balanced right-back
Frank Rijkaard - defensive midfielder
Josef Bozsik - deep-lying playmaker
Sir Bobby Charlton - left-ish midfielder
Sir Thomas Finney - right winger
Zico - his natural free-roaming role
Romario - fast striker (interchanging with Zico)

Subs: Domingos Da Guia, Paul McGrath, Frank Ribery, Mats Hummels, N'Golo Kante

Spoiler: Individual achievements

Pat Jennings: FWA Footballer of the Year 1972/73; PFA Player's Player of the Year 1975/76; PFA Team of the year 1973/74, 1975/76;
#13 IFFHS World Keeper of the Century
Andreas Brehme: Serie A Footballer of the Year 1989; Ballon D'Or 3rd place 1990; World Cup All-Star team 1990; UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 1984, 1992;
#12 IFFHS Germany Player of the Century
Fernando Hierro: UEFA Club Best Defender 1997/98; FIFA XI 1996, 1997, 1998; World Cup All-Star team 2002
Alessandro Nesta: Serie A Defender of the year 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003; Serie A Young Footballer of the Year 1998; UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 2000; UEFA Team of the Year 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007; ESM Team of the Year 2000-01; FIFPro World XI 2005, 2007; UEFA Ultimate Team of the Year; UEFA Golden Jubilee Poll: #47
Berti Vogts: Footballer of the Year in Germany 1971, 1979; World Cup All-Star team 1974, 1978
Frank Rijkaard: Serie A Footballer of the Year 1992; Serie A Best foreign player 1992; Ballon D'Or 3rd place 1988, 1989; Dutch Golden Shoe 1985, 1987; UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 1988
Josef Bozsik: HFF Player of the Year 1952; World Cup All-Star team 1954;
#3 IFFHS Hungary Player of the Century
Sir Bobby Charlton: Ballon D'Or 1966, runner-up 1968; World Cup Golden Ball 1966; FWA Footballer of the Year 1965/66; World Cup All-Star team 1966, 1970;
#10 IFFHS World Player of the Century
Sir Thomas Finney: FWA Player of the Year 1954, 1957;
#9 IFFHS England Player of the Century
Zico: World Player of the Year (Multiple magazines) 1981, 1983; South American Footballer of the Year 1977, 1981, 1982, runner-up 1976, 1980; Guerin Sportivo Serie A Player of the Year 1984; Copa Libertadores Best Player 1981; World Cup All-Star team 1982;
#14 IFFHS World Player of the Century;
#20 RSSSF Best Goalscorer of All-time (Official Matches) with 522 goals
Romario: FIFA World Player of the Year 1994, runner-up 1993; World Cup Golden Ball 1994; South American Footballer of the Year 2000; World Cup All-Star team 1994, 2002;
#11 IFFHS Brazil Player of the Century;
#2 RSSSF Best Goalscorer of All-time (Official Matches) with 772 goals

Key points:

1. Defensive strategy. With the additions of Frank Rijkaard and Alessandro Nesta my defence looks close to perfect. Two complete center backs in the middle, both of them have amazing understanding of the game, athletic, ruthless and, as a bonus, smooth on the ball; two balanced all-time great fullbacks, with Brehme being slightly more attacking and Vogts - a little more conservative. And shielding this cohesive unit I have the finest defensive midfielder in history of the game, Frank Rijkaard.

Nesta was moved to the left as I want him to cover Brehme against Lionel Messi's runs. Nesta already showed that even way past his peak he is more than capable of minimizing Messi's influence in the game - and if Messi will choose to go deeper, he'll be stopped by Frank Rijkaard. The pair of Hierro - Vogts, with the help from Rijkaard, of course, will be dealing with Cruyff and Ronaldo. I won't put Vogts on Cruyff like Shön did in 1974, but with the Dutchman regularly peeling out wide he'll find Vogts there, ready to face him. Cristiano is a pretty straight-forward player these days, always cutting inside and shooting - and I feel that Hierro and Vogts are well-suited to the task here. Hierro had his arguably best defensive performance nullifying Del Piero in the CL final and in Cristiano he will find a similar opponent. His athleticism and aerial dominance will also ensure that Cristiano won't get an physical advantage over my defence.

2. Cristiano - Cruyff - Messi - panacea? Fielding Messi and Ronaldo in the same team is the dream of every fantasy manager, but there is always a problem - who is going to spearhead this attack? Who is going to ensure that both of them are playing to their strengths? Cristiano needs Benzema, Messi (on the right) needs Suarez - the obvious choice from the all-time pool would be Seeler, I guess. Anyway, it has to be someone who is capable of harassing the defenders to push defensive line deeper (providing more space for M/R), and it has to be someone selfless enough to play as a figure of distraction. Will Cruyff, false 9 per excellence, do well with Cristiano? I'd say yes. Will Cruyff dovetail with Messi? I don't see it. Is Cruyff maximizing those two's potential? Absolutely not. Rijkaard operating in the same space Cruyff and Messi would compete for doesn't help the case either.

3. Offensive strategy. Tuppet has a beautiful team, but his defence (regardless of it's final form, will it be Suurbier on the right or Samuel centrally), isn't suited to deal with my agile and pacey attack. Blanc's pace was always his main weakness and I don't think that Pirlo will find my Brazilians buzzing around him very comfortable, while Suurbier and Samuel do not deserve a place in the all-time QF. Do not forget that the complimentary duo of Zico - Romario is the most prolific duo in the draft, scoring around 1300 official goals together.

On the counter I also have amazing passers from the deep - Hierro, Brehme, Rijkaard, Bozsik and even Charlton - and the pace of Romario, Zico, Finney, Charlton and even Brehme/Vogts will prove it's worth against Blanc-lead defence.

Spoiler: Attacking and counter-attacking

4. Midfield battle. While Tuppet's trio is nicely balanced and it's easy to visualize how will play together, I simply have better and more all-rounded players. Bozsik contributed more to the defense than Pirlo while also being less vulnerable to pressing; Rijkaard is the perfect defensive powerhouse a level above generation greats Tardelli and Vieira and Charlton is probably the best midfielder on the pitch. Charlton & co are also more likely to score than their opponents - Tuppet's front trio is the only source of the goals in his team.


TL/DR:
- Blanc's lack of pace and Pirlo's vulnerability to pressing against ZiRo will decide the game in my favor.
- Better and more cohesive defensive unit will provide the great foundation for my attacking game.
- My midfielders are better and more likely to decide the game with an individual performance.


TEAM TUPPET

​

Subs: Hamrin, Walter Samuel, Suurbier, Fabregas, Greizmann​

Formation: Modern 4-3-3 with false 9
Defensive line: High

Player roles:
Lev Yashin - Keeper
Maxime Bossis - Defensive right full back
Laurent Blanc - Ball playing right center back
Ruud Krol - Ball playing left center back
Ze roberto - attacking left wing back
Andrea Pirlo - deep lying playmaker
Marco Tardelli - Defensive box to box midfielder
Patrick Vieira - Defensive box to box midfielder
Cristiano Ronaldo - Left inside forward
Lionel Messi - Right wide playmaker
Johan Cruyff - False number 9

Defense:

• We sport a combo of 2 ball playing defenders as opposed to the more popular stopper-sweeper pair. This is a deliberate decision made in light of the attack of our opposition. The primary qualities that I was looking for in the defense to face a 2 forward Zico-Romario attack is positional intelligence, interception and anticipation. Since neither of those two is an aerial monster, I decided to leave Samuel on the bench. Bossis (who would mostly tuck in as a third CB) Krol and Blanc are three very classy, intelligent and complete defenders. With Bossis and Krol being quite fast as well. Blanc provides good aerial ability and his ball playing prowess along with his intelligence help us in playing a high line effectively.

• Ze Roberto plays as a left wing back, providing overlaps for Cristiano, in what would be a similar to highly successful Marcelo-Ronaldo partnership. It should be remembered though that Roberto is a defender in my setup and is part of back 4, he would push up higher when we have ball, but would utilize his stamina and speed to get back in defensive phase. Bossis on the other end plays a much more conservative role behind Messi. He would go forward sometimes but mostly tuck in to accommodate an offensive wing back at the other end.

• When ze roberto bombs forward the defense would shift to the left side, making it a back 3 of Krol - Blanc - Bossis.

• Oh and not to forget the only Ballon D'or winning goalkeeper - Yashin. Now Yashin is not a modern goalkeeper, but is considered one of the early pioneers of sweeper keeper role and was very adventurous for his time. He would do well to defend behind my high line.

Midfield:

• Given the strength of Harms's midfield, as well the strength of my attack which does not really need much support, both Tardelli and Vieira are instructed to play more defensively than in the previous game. They would be instructed to cut down the forward runs and be more disciplined to provide muscle to the more creative Pirlo and Cruyff.

• Pirlo is playing a deep lying playmaker role, which he has played throughout his career. He is one of history's greatest player in that role. It is obvious but still making it explicit that he is not the sole defensive midfielder who is facing the opposition number 10. He would do his bit but most of the defending in the midfield would be done by all 3 as a unit.

Attack:

• I really do love the attack of my team, it would come across as biased but I think for the front 3 of a 4-3-3 its pretty much perfect and almost impossible to improve upon. Ronaldo provides physicality, aerial ability, off the ball runs and long range threat, while Cruyff and Messi have playmaking, creativity, electric dribbling and unpredictability covered. Together they would mesh up in a fluid front 3 and would play some really slick and sexy football. All 3 have lethal finishing and Ronaldo and Messi esp have stupendous numbers in goal scoring. They also share 11 Ballon D'or between them.

• Ronaldo is really set up for success here, with an overlapping attacking full back behind him, an uber intelligent center forward that would vacate the position for him to run into, and 3 of the most creative players in Pirlo, Messi & Cruyff to set him up for goals, I just don't think he could be stopped. I know he is facing a very good defender in Vogts, but IMO when Ronaldo has service he always scores and its nearly impossible to cut out his service here. I have noticed in past few drafts that Ronaldo's stock is not very high here as far as GOATs go, but in this role of a goal scoring left forward I don't think there is anyone in history I would take over him.

Edge:
I think its my attack that give me edge mostly. Messi is best player on the pitch, Cruyff second best and Ronaldo would give Romario and Zico a run for their money to be considered third best. They also mesh together pretty well and while Harms sports a very good defense they are near impossible to stop in my opinion. My defense is slightly weaker but is a pretty good fit with fast and intelligent defenders against Harms' attack. Also they are shielded by three defensive minded midfielders. Even so I think both teams would score here, but my team has a bit more in magic and attacking prowess to outscore the opposition.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@harms @Tuppet All the best!

 

[harms]

@Tuppet good luck!

Ze Roberto? I didn't expect that to be fair. Can't say that I rate him as a left back in a back four, especially against a winger of Finney's quality

Spoiler: Finney's performance on the right for those of you who haven't seen it

Krol makes your central defence stronger but I'm not sure if he and Blanc are the best fit together. Well, the issues of Blanc's pace and Pirlo's defensive qualities still remain.

Plus there is a question of Messi-Cruyff suitability. Ronaldo will work fairly well with both of them, but I can't see the former two dovetailing together, which nullifies their status as the best players on the pitch.

 

[harms]

Voting for myself to see the score, @Tuppet

 

[harms]

My defense is slightly weaker but is a pretty good fit with fast and intelligent defenders against Harms' attack. Also they are shielded by three defensive minded midfielders. Even so I think both teams would score here, but my team has a bit more in magic and attacking prowess to outscore the opposition.

1. Fast - Blanc isn't fast, he is the opposite of it, in fact. No question about others.
2. Intelligent - Ze Roberto simply is not a defender, at least not in this system, and if we're talking about his football (defensive, firstly) intelligence I don't think that he stands out.
3. Pirlo is not defensive-minded just because he plays deeper, in fact, his off the ball workrate was always in question.

So here we are, with the biggest mismatch on the pitch in Finney - Ze Roberto; and with Blanc being ruthlessly exposed against Romario/Zico's pace and agility, even though in Krol he has a great partner to cover for him.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @harms

 

[Tuppet]

Well, the question of fit is always subjective. As you can see from my post, I think Messi and Cruyff is a beautiful fit. Grounded in same philosophies and blessed with same technical abilities and both are two of the most intelligent footballers in history. Somebody mentioned in another thread that "If Cruyff is Pythagorus in boots than Messi is Einstein of Football".

And no Messi does not need freaking Suarez to perform at his best. Yes he happen to play with him at the moment but that does not mean he is restricted by the type of forward he plays with. Messi would absolutely relish to be playing 1-2s with someone with same techincal ability like he does when playing with Iniesta or Neymar. I would leave this to voters to decide, but I think Cruyff is as good a GOAT you can sport with Messi.

 

[harms]

Yeah, of course we'll see what the voters think on that matter. I do think that you need someone to play a supporting role when you field both Ronaldo and Messi, someone like Seeler, ideally, or even MvB (less ideal fit though), who will push the defensive line deeper and provide Ronaldo and Messi with space between the lines. Playing Messi, who still operates very much like the false 9, he just starts from the right, with another dominant false 9... I don't know.

They're going to spend much time in the same area which is controlled by Rijkaard - literally the best man possible for the job.

 

[Tuppet]

1. Fast - Blanc isn't fast, he is the opposite of it, in fact. No question about others.
2. Intelligent - Ze Roberto simply is not a defender, at least not in this system, and if we're talking about his football (defensive, firstly) intelligence I don't think that he stands out.
3. Pirlo is not defensive-minded just because he plays deeper, in fact, his off the ball workrate was always in question.

So here we are, with the biggest mismatch on the pitch in Finney - Ze Roberto; and with Blanc being ruthlessly exposed against Romario/Zico's pace and agility, even though in Krol he has a great partner to cover for him.

1. Well that fast comment was mostly on Bossis and Krol. You don't really have any left winger which gives Bossis freedom to tuck in as a third CB most of the time. Not that Blanc at his peak is anywhere near as slow as you are making him out. I am not sure he was much slower than defender Hierro.

2. Ze Roberto is an attacking wing back and is supported by 3 defenders behind him. All 3 of which are classy, intelligent defenders.

3. Pirlo is most certainly defensive minded player, just like Bozsik was. Both have played the deep lying midfielder role, the defensive capability between them is a matter of shades and degrees but there is no question that I have 3 defensive minded midfielders shielding the defense.

Ze Roberto - Finney as much a mismatch as Messi - Brehme is, Brehme is much better than Roberto but than Messi is far better than Finney as well and Ze Roberto is covered by 3 defenders behind him, most importantly you cant find a better left sided defender to cover flanks than Krol (well Maldini sure). Blanc is well covered with both Bossis and Krol and is nowhere as slow as you are making him out, you are basically judging him from his united stint, while at his peak he was one of the best and most complete central defender around.

 

[Tuppet]

Yeah, of course we'll see what the voters think on that matter. I do think that you need someone to play a supporting role when you field both Ronaldo and Messi, someone like Seeler, ideally, or even MvB (less ideal fit though), who will push the defensive line deeper and provide Ronaldo and Messi with space between the lines. Playing Messi, who still operates very much like the false 9, he just starts from the right, with another dominant false 9... I don't know.

They're going to spend much time in the same area which is controlled by Rijkaard - literally the best man possible for the job.

Why would Cruyff and Messi spend most time in same areas ? There is literally no area where Cruyff spends most time in. Much like Di Stefano, any positional moniker that you give him is purely symbolic and for the purpose of showing him on the team sheet, he would spend time all over the pitch. He would spend more time on the left side than Right side anyway where he would take Ronaldo's spot when Ronaldo cuts to center. Even if they are in similar areas, It has never hampered Messi, who have shared similar areas with Iniesta throughout his career.

 

[antohan]

@Tuppet, you should credit Cult Zeros with the images. That was my agreement with them when I had them as my player-creating bitches for the Reality Draft.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Rijkaard the GOAT in that position but I don't think he deals well with Messi. His body movements are too quick for someone of rijkaards physique and I think he'd spend much of the game fouling him. The best man marking jobs I've seen done on Messi were by small, quick tenacious players. It's about being able to match the body swerves, not being physically stronger.

In the same breath , I think he is the perfect DM to deal with Ronaldo when he cuts in field. I actually see Ronaldo being hugely ineffective against this set of players.

It's close this one.

 

[Tuppet]

I am on the other hand skeptical of Sir Charlton's role in your team @harms, I didn't like it in the first game either which is what prompted me to vote for Aldo. I know he has good work rate and he started his career as left winger, but still this hybrid role where he has to contend with 3 world class midfielders and provide width on the left, I don't know doesn't seem best in this game at least.

@Tuppet, you should credit Cult Zeros with the images. That was my agreement with them when I had them as my player-creating bitches for the Reality Draft.

Absolutely, all images are from Cult Zero.

 

[harms]

I know he has good work rate and he started his career as left winger, but still this hybrid role where he has to contend with 3 world class midfielders and provide width on the left

He doesn't though, and I specified it several times. I also posted pictures of my formation in attack and in the counter, does he look like a winger to you here?

 

[antohan]

Ze Roberto? I didn't expect that to be fair. Can't say that I rate him as a left back in a back four, especially against a winger of Finney's quality

It's a brave call, but a good one in my book. There's great cover and a tasty set of defenders in the rest of the backline which would make for a fantastic trio.

 

[harms]

It's a brave call, but a good one in my book. There's great cover and a tasty set of defenders in the rest of the backline which would make for a fantastic trio.

I'm not sure how those three defenders are supposed to deal with my 3 pure attackers and, say, Brehme or Charlton pushing further forward? Not to forget that Rijkaard and Bozsik are also here, capable of breaking through the middle and scoring themselves if Vieira/Tardelli go wide to cover.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Tuppet

Doesn't playing without an attacking right back make it much easier for Harms to defend against Messi without someone providing an overlap on the right?

I don't have an issue with the front three per se although I'm not sure how Ronaldo will deal with not being the main man and would prefer someone to stretch the play on the right.

In principle you have an excellent setup for Pirlo but you really need someone like Mascherano as a DM or a back three to have two attacking full-backs to get the best out of Messi and Ronaldo.

 

[antohan]

I'm not sure how those three defenders are supposed to deal with my 3 pure attackers and, say, Brehme or Charlton pushing further forward? Not to forget that Rijkaard and Bozsik are also here, capable of breaking through the middle and scoring themselves if Vieira/Tardelli go wide to cover.

Charlton is Tardelli's man. I wouldn't expect much defence-breaching incisiveness from Bozsik (other than through his passing) or Rijkaard (given the mighty job at hand). If Brehme goes forward on the ball he is Bossis' man, Vieira is on Zico and yes, you would need to rely on Zé to keep an eye on Finney... but the ball is at the other end of the pitch. I would be a bit more worried of Zé getting caught out upfield by Finney, Krol covering and Bossis facing a tough call between an on rushing Brehme ready to let fly from the edge of the box or supporting Blanc vs. Romario. It's Bossis though* and Blanc was an outstanding defender nevertheless.

Far better than what you expected: a CB pairing of Samuel and Blanc vs. Romario. I would have shat myself if I were Yashin then.


*For the individual award-oriented ones, he even won "Sexiest Footballer" awards aged 61. I'm told Cristiano isn't happy though, which could be a problem. He seems hellbent on scoring himself so he has an excuse to show off his abs and challenge him to unveil his for comparison.

 

[Tuppet]

@Tuppet

Doesn't playing without an attacking right back make it much easier for Harms to defend against Messi without someone providing an overlap on the right?

I don't have an issue with the front three per se although I'm not sure how Ronaldo will deal with not being the main man and would prefer someone to stretch the play on the right.

In principle you have an excellent setup for Pirlo but you really need someone like Mascherano as a DM or a back three to have two attacking full-backs to get the best out of Messi and Ronaldo.

I don't really think that Messi needs an attacking full back behind him to be at his best. He is much more of a wide playmaker who would be perfectly happy to work with a more cultured defender behind him, than there is also Cruyff who could interchange positions with Messi if needed. But yeah Messi is far less dependent on overlapping fullbacks than say Ronaldo in my opinion. I do see your point though and that would be another good setup with a purely defensive midfielder and an attacking right back.

 

[Gio]

@Tuppet, you should credit Cult Zeros with the images. That was my agreement with them when I had them as my player-creating bitches for the Reality Draft.

Any excuse to post this:

Souness is awesome though:

 

[antohan]

I don't really think that Messi needs an attacking full back behind him to be at his best. He is much more of a wide playmaker who would be perfectly happy to work with a more cultured defender behind him, than there is also Cruyff who could interchange positions with Messi if needed. But yeah Messi is far less dependent on overlapping fullbacks than say Ronaldo in my opinion. I do see your point though and that would be another good setup with a purely defensive midfielder and an attacking right back.

Bossis can attack if needs be, I wouldn't swap him at all. Nor would I go witha third defensive midfielder at the cost of Pirlo's passing. Busquets maybe, but not Mascherano.

 

[Moby]

Tuppet's team is a thing of beauty!

 

[Moby]

Krol, Blanc and Bossis are three fantastic ball playing defenders all of whom are capable of picking out beautiful outballs to kickstart devastating counters as well as keep the ball and recycle possession. Then to that you add Andrea Pirlo, Lionel Messi and Johan Cruyff! The amount of quality service in that team is insane and Cristiano will have a field day with all of them finding him throughout the game. I don't see that creative juggernaut being stifled by Tuppet's attacking players by pressing them up front and they will have ample time to play short and long, while on the other hand they will keep the ball for long periods starving the other team from getting the ball and being a constant threat. Would really pay to watch that team in full flow.

 

[Moby]

I do see your point though and that would be another good setup with a purely defensive midfielder and an attacking right back.

There are obviously a lot of other right backs who provide their own great qualities but you won't get many names out there who provide the defensive intelligence and tactical awareness of Bossis along with his silky attacking play and ability on the ball, as well as his versatility and flexibility in adjusting the defensive shape as needed. An absolute class player in his own right.

 

[Gio]

First impression is one of wonder at how tantalisingly devastating Tuppet's front three is. The midfield is very solid and would provide a robust platform for the attack to do their thing. Not as convincing at the back though where there are a couple of questionable areas with Finney against Ze Roberto and through the central defensive axis.

Krol makes your central defence stronger but I'm not sure if he and Blanc are the best fit together. Well, the issues of Blanc's pace and Pirlo's defensive qualities still remain.

Yes, I'm not entirely sold on that partnership. Gorgeous on the ball, and plenty of defensive nous, but perhaps lacking a little raw physicality, and arguably compounded with Pirlo ahead. On the ball though you can see Pirlo shining in this set-up with the minding support of the two central midfielders, the quartet of ball-players offering plentiful options behind him, and that attack.

 

[antohan]

Yes, I'm not entirely sold on that partnership. Gorgeous on the ball, and plenty of defensive nous, but perhaps lacking a little raw physicality, and arguably compounded with Pirlo ahead.

Against Romario and Zico physicality isn't a key attribute though, is it?

 

[Moby]

through the central defensive axis.

Hate to be one sided in my arguments as I typically am and no doubt this is a close game but I'd say that statement is coming from a bit of underrating of his two central defenders. While they are similar in style, I completely buy Tuppet's rationale of going with that as opposed to a typical stopper-sweeper combo given harms' attack.

Now coming to their ability - while Krol was fantastic in 74 on the left he hit his peak as a sweeper in 78 and during that period he was possibly the best defender in the world, and pretty much flawless in that role, while providing incredible class on the ball to go with it. Blanc, is possibly one of the most underrated defenders in here, at his peak he showed incredible ability and his defensive IQ was a sight to behold.

Obviously they have a mammoth task of being against two of the deadliest players ever and no one would probably argue that they would keep a clean sheet or anything but over 90 minutes combined with the technical ability that runs across the team, they will defend through possession and control that area well despite the odd moment when they get beaten. Ze is the only point I completely agree with here, but again this back four looks quite like a mirrored Barca back four with the Alves role being done on the left by Ze, who complements the cutting-in Cristiano as well as anyone would, while Krol being as comfortable as anyone in coming out to that left flank as Puyol was towards the right. @Tuppet mentioned the same in the OP that the back four would often shift into a back three and difficult to see any difficulty whatsoever in doing that given that defensive unit - all four tactically look spot on to me. Overall I wouldn't say there are many question marks and there's a lot more to like about the way it has been constructed.

 

[Gio]

Against Romario and Zico physicality isn't a key attribute though, is it?

I'd want an element in the core of the defence. Not about dealing with long balls in the air - Blanc has that covered in any case as he was almost imperious at that side of the game. But if we look at the Desailly-Blanc partnership for France, Desailly would usually hit the first ball, eating up the ground on anything short and sharp in the central area, while Blanc would typically mop up around him. If we take those elements out, I'm not sure that Krol, Blanc and Pirlo, for all their great reading, have the attributes to physically squeeze the game in that manner. Bottom line is if Zico gets on the ball behind Vieira and Tardelli, Tuppet's got a major problem.

 

[Gio]

Hate to be one sided in my arguments as I typically am and no doubt this is a close game but I'd say that statement is coming from a bit of underrating of his two central defenders. While they are similar in style, I completely buy Tuppet's rationale of going with that as opposed to a typical stopper-sweeper combo given harms' attack.

Yeah, I made the same point earlier in the draft regarding Jayvin's Zmuda/Rio defence given what they were up against. But I think that pair were a little more rounded.

Now coming to their ability - while Krol was fantastic in 74 on the left he hit his peak as a sweeper in 78 and during that period he was possibly the best defender in the world, and pretty much flawless in that role, while providing incredible class on the ball to go with it. Blanc, is possibly one of the most underrated defenders in here, at his peak he showed incredible ability and his defensive IQ was a sight to behold.

I rate Blanc highly, particularly in the right set-up. Not sure about under-rated though, he had quite a difficult club career in some ways relative to some of the other legends in the draft. And that's ignoring his latter stint at United which is sometimes unfairly picked up on. Where he really hit that performance peak was alongside Desailly for France in 1996, 1998 and 2000. That was a superb partnership which collectively did not have a weakness. But without what Desailly brought to the table, and the threat posed by Zico in the area that Desailly typically dominanted, then I think there's a question to be answered.

 

[harms]

So Krol covers for left midfielder who plays as a left back and faces one of the best wingers in history, covers for Blanc who will get in trouble with rapid and agile ZiRo and gets on top in both situations?

While Brehme - Nesta - Rijkaard - Hierro - Vogts are leaking goals against 3 attackers and Ze Roberto

 

[antohan]

I'd want an element in the core of the defence. Not about dealing with long balls in the air - Blanc has that covered in any case as he was almost imperious at that side of the game. But if we look at the Desailly-Blanc partnership for France, Desailly would usually hit the first ball, eating up the ground on anything short and sharp in the central area, while Blanc would typically mop up around him. If we take those elements out, I'm not sure that Krol, Blanc and Pirlo, for all their great reading, have the attributes to physically squeeze the game in that manner. Bottom line is if Zico gets on the ball behind Vieira and Tardelli, Tuppet's got a major problem.

Fair point about coming out to challenge/break up. I guess the question is whether Vieira and Tardelli should mind Zico or his providers. I'd do the latter. That + greater possession should limit his time on the ball greatly. Then when he has it it's an issue of course, but I'd rather that than put a third DM for those occasions or Samuel at the back (as the problem then is greater and closer to goal). Maldini would be ideal, obviously.

 

[antohan]

So Krol covers for left midfielder who plays as a left back and faces one of the best wingers in history, covers for Blanc who will get in trouble with rapid and agile ZiRo and gets on top in both situations?

While Brehme - Nesta - Rijkaard - Hierro - Vogts are leaking goals against 3 attackers and Ze Roberto

Nobody leaks goals, one side has a tighter grip on the game, that's all.

Re: Krol, he isn't doing two jobs at the aame time. When he is covering Bossis tucks in. The issue then could be Brehme of course, but he is smart enough to make the call (certainly smarter than I am).

 

[Joga Bonito]

I myself can see Sir Bobby being at his best in that free hybrid midfielder-attacker LAM role. Actually, whenever I think of upgrading the Brazil 1970 side, Sir Bobby is always the first in line for that Rivelino LAM role (and many other roles in other vintage sides), only with far more strings to his bow. He was always at ease in the left hand side channels and the wing, and brought plenty of industry, tactical nous and a varied attacking threat to his side. He could drop deep into midfield to beef up the engine room, venture out wide/channels if needed or make a central incision (from both a creative and goalscoring perspective), as per the requirements imposed upon him. It's a free and a multi-faceted role and I can't think of anyone else who can fulfill it to such an extent (on the left that is, Gullit on the right as the more physical and relatively less creative/cerebral option maybe). Pedernera perhaps, but we can't really know for sure. The likes of van Hanegem, Iniesta, Nedved, Liedholm etc can give it a good shot but they each do lack certain facets that Sir Bobby brings to the table.

In fact, I had him in my all time European XI in the LAM slot.

Spoiler

I think Sir Bobby is one of the more accommodating and selfless greats out there and I can see him working a treat in harms set-up. That's not to make Sir Bobby someone who can work in just about any set up or with any personnel, as he's 'selfless' etc. With Brehme being primarily tasked with providing width down the left, it's not like Sir Bobby's shoe-horned out wide, being asked to play as an outside left, nor is he required to do too much heavy lifting in midfield with Rijkaard and Bozsik being a solid pair. He's primarily got the platform and the tactical freedom to impose himself, which is why I can buy him in such a hybrid role. Can also see Sir Bobby gelling well with the likes of Zico, Bozsik etc who are pretty malleable players themselves.

Anyway, a real tight affair this one, and I'd just about given the edge to harms. It was harms midfield and counter-measures to Tuppet's fantastic attack, which just about tipped the scales imo. I just don't see Pirlo and Cruyff meshing together well and I think what Pirlo offers is rather surplus to requirements here with Cruyff. Cruyff had complete control over his sides and was more or less the prime playmaker of his side, with the likes of van Hanegem and Muhren etc being well-rounded enough to play the supporting creative roles. They weren't just fairly static and creative playmakers but dynamic all-rounders who were more than just creative players. Pirlo as a pivot in midfield, doesn't quite seem like the ideal creative midfield complement for Cruyff and I'd have preferred a more dynamic and less dominant creative presence in midfield. A more offensive B2B from midfield could have been better to dovetail with Cruyff. As it stands, the midfield and offense (mainly Cruyff) seems to have a bit of disconnect, although I think I'm harsh on Vieira. It could definitely be improved though imo. Love Tardelli to bits and I can see him being ideal for that midfield, or just about any for that matter.

I'd give the edge to harms central unit and whilst Tuppet's attack is great, I do believe harms is relatively better suited to deal with it as opposed to the likes of Sir Bobby/Zico and Finney whom I can see having a good game here. It must have been tempting for harms to have placed Vogts on Cruyff but it's an astute move by him not do so, as he's one of the best RBs to have against Cristiano Ronaldo imo. Just as Krol-Blanc is a fine partnership in this context (against Zico-Romario), Hierro-Nesta is fantastic to deal with Cruyff in his false 9 role (with Rijkaard as the DM) and with Messi frequenting the 'hole'/channels as well. Neither are brutish stoppers and would be right at home, either in the box or slightly higher up against a withdrawn Cruyff or Messi. Hierro's experience as a DM and a CB in particular should serve him well in this particular encounter. Once again it boils down to Tuppet's midfield lacking 'that' offensive presence, be it a Neeskens/Breitner/Luis Suarez etc and as it stands, it's just a wee bit compartmentalised for my liking, esp since it's a side which is sporting Cruyff in the false 9 role.

@Tuppet

Doesn't playing without an attacking right back make it much easier for Harms to defend against Messi without someone providing an overlap on the right?

I don't have an issue with the front three per se although I'm not sure how Ronaldo will deal with not being the main man and would prefer someone to stretch the play on the right.

In principle you have an excellent setup for Pirlo but you really need someone like Mascherano as a DM or a back three to have two attacking full-backs to get the best out of Messi and Ronaldo.

I don't quite think Messi is the sort who'd require an overlapping FB but rather a more ball-playing FB to dovetail with. More than the standard overlap, it's the one-twos and link-up play that Messi enjoyed with Alves that stood out the most. Alves's overlapping runs were a potent weapon for Barca but I wouldn't say they were critical to Messi's game.

 

[antohan]

I myself can see Sir Bobby being at his best in that free hybrid midfielder-attacker LAM role. Actually, whenever I think of upgrading the Brazil 1970 side, Sir Bobby is always the first in line for that Rivelino LAM role (and many other roles in other vintage sides), only with far more strings to his bow. He was always at ease in the left hand side channels and the wing, and brought plenty of industry, tactical nous and a varied attacking threat to his side. He could drop deep into midfield to beef up the engine room, venture out wide/channels if needed or make a central incision (from both a creative and goalscoring perspective), as per the requirements imposed upon him. It's a free and a multi-faceted role and I can't think of anyone else in the all-time who can fulfill it to such an extent (on the left that is, Gullit on the right as the more physical and slightly less creative/cerebral option maybe). Pedernera perhaps, but we can't really know for sure. The likes of van Hanegem, Iniesta, Nedved, Liedholm etc can give it a good shot but they each do lack certain facets that Sir Bobby brings to the table.

Same here. I'm still scratching my head wondering what it is that people found wrong with it in the previous game, let alone this one. I can't see him being a better fit to any other role.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Same here. I'm still scratching my head wondering what it is that people found wrong with it in the previous game, let alone this one. I can't see him being a better fit to any other role.

Aye, he's a shoe-in for that role in just about any side. I'd always wanted to make a hybrid 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 system* with the goalscoring/creative etc responsibilities being balanced out finely and with variation being the name of the game - without a prime threat in each department that you can shut down and I can really appreciate that in harms side.

I'd raised the same exact point in his last game too.

Unfortunately, I just think harms attack is too varied and prolific to employ such a fairly risky defensive setup. Harms isn't just heavily reliant on his forward duo for goals here, but has the likes of Charlton and Finney to count on as his secondary goalscoring threats - which is ridiculous. It's harder to pinpoint and isolate an (or two) active goalscoring threats to shut down here - say Romario-bebeto or van basten-gullit etc. Any one of harms attacking quadrant could be relied on to put the ball in the back of the net, if they were to slip through. Esp with the creativity (which is also nicely balanced) flowing through his side, and Bozsik dictating play in midfield.

*

Spoiler

*This would have been the ideal side - impossible to create in a draft of course



Maybe Garrincha instead of Messi

 

[antohan]

Aye, he's a shoe-in for that role in just about any side. I'd always wanted to make a hybrid 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 system* with the goalscoring/creative etc responsibilities being balanced out finely and with variation being the name of the game - without a prime threat in each department that you can shut down and I can really appreciate that in harms side.

I'd raised the same exact point in his last game too.



*

Spoiler

*This would have been the ideal side - impossible to create in a draft of course



Maybe Garrincha instead of Messi

That's a beauty, and not far off what I was aiming for with my shadow side, in fairness.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I believe it is hard to include Messi, Cruyff and Cristiano and get the best out of the three. The former two could do a great pressing job but then again Ronaldo isn't suited to that at all and in terms of playing style I don't think Cruyff and Messi would complement each other perfectly. The young right winger version of Messi would have been a lot better, but even then you'd want him to do a pressing job for him to carry weight defensively. Ronaldo would obviously love all the passes he'd get from Pirlo/Cruyff and Messi and Ze Roberto linking up with him however. Maybe with a really defensive setup the three could just carry all the weight offensively or something but I have a hard time picturing a tactic where they'd work.

Cruyff would certainly miss a Neeskens here as the central midfielders are told to primarily do a defensive job which also takes away a major part of Vieira/Tardellis game in general. The team would be better of with Bossis playing as an offensive right back providing overlaps for Messi as well as the team is already playing so offensive. It seems like a last minute solution to try and compensate for Ze Roberto and the obvious weakness he is at this stage in the draft, even if I am a big fan of his.

Harms got lucky here that his lopsided formation can capitalize fully on Ze Roberto with Finney there in a rather free role. Would have been such an unpredictable game if Vieira/Tardelli/Bossis were let to bomb forward as well and I would probably had gone with Tuppet.

 

[harms]

Same here. I'm still scratching my head wondering what it is that people found wrong with it in the previous game, let alone this one. I can't see him being a better fit to any other role.

I think the fact that he is often included in glorified XIs as a number 10, despite not really playing like one throughout his career, changed the perception of him as a player.

 

[harms]

Ronaldo would obviously love all the passes he'd get from Pirlo/Cruyff and Messi and Brehme linking up with him however.

I sure hope that Brehme won't help Ronaldo here, otherwise I'd put him on the bench even if substitutions aren't allowed.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I sure hope that Brehme won't help Ronaldo here, otherwise I'd put him on the bench even if substitutions aren't allowed.

Sorry mate, meant Ze Roberto.