MADN Draft R1: GSTQ vs 2mufc0

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team GSTQ

Inspiration - Brazil 1982
Style of play - Attacking - dominate proceedings and win the midfield battle

Spoiler: Player Leagues

Edwin Van Der Sar - England
Viv Anderson - England
Nemanja Vidic - England
Bobby Moore - England
Bernard Dietz - Germany
Toninho Cerezo - Italy
Luis Suarez Miramontes - Italy
Andres Iniesta - Spain
Zico - Italy
Cristiano Ronaldo - England
Denis Law - England

Team 2mufc0

Setup inspired by Chelsea's Tuchel, packed with hard workers but with fast skilful players who are devastating on the counter. GSTQ's team is full of midfield playmakers, however, getting through the middle of this team is going to be very difficult, similar to how City found against Chelsea in the CL final. Rooney and Lampard have the defensive work rate to support the midfield but also able to spring fast counter attacks, Koeman will also be able to take full advantage of the off the ball runs by the attackers and full backs. My fullbacks will stretch the play going forward taking advantage if GSTQ's likely to be narrow formation. Romario will specifically be instructed to stick to Vidic like a rash and take advantage of his weakness against quick nimble players.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@GodShaveTheQueen @2mufc0 Good luck!

 

[Physiocrat]

@GodShaveTheQueen

Wasn't Cerezo an AM in Italy rather than a DM/CM? IIRC he moved further forward later in his career

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Something is a bit off in scrappy's midfield + no idea how would United Ronaldo fit in that team, will wait if he wants to go into more detail on how would the team look on and off the ball.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen

Wasn't Cerezo an AM in Italy rather than a DM/CM? IIRC he moved further forward later in his career

At Roma, yes, he played a really advanced role and scored/created some really nice goals. But he only played 3 of his 9 seasons in Italy at AS Roma.

He played 6 seasons at Sampdoria in some of their best seasons and there he was a DM.

Sampdoria

• Serie A: 1990–91
• Coppa Italia: 1988, 1989, 1991 runner-up
• UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 1989 runner-up, 1990
• European Cup: 1992 runner-up
• Supercoppa Italiana: 1991[16]

 

[Physiocrat]

@GodShaveTheQueen

Cool. Thanks for the info

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Something is a bit off in scrappy's midfield + no idea how would United Ronaldo fit in that team, will wait if he wants to go into more detail on how would the team look on and off the ball.

Not sure what you find odd about that midfield but I will put my thoughts on it.

Brazil 1982	GSTQ 2021	Thoughts​
Zico	Zico	The Serie A version of Zico in his peak season scored 24 goals in 33 games. Even though the numbers are terrific, it was his creativity that stood out in the games I watched. Also, a lot of these goals were some great freekicks, so his open play scoring was not at his peak Flamengo/Brazil levels, but despite Udinese not having a great season as a team, Zico was simply brilliant. His performances saw him voted as the ‘Player of the Year’ by World Soccer Magazine and the 'Serie A Player of the Year'. There are a couple of great encounters against Maradona's Napoli from back then, including a 2-2 draw which Maradona cheated his way through as usual with a 90th minute equalizer scored with his hand.
Socrates	Iniesta	This one doesn't need much explanation. If I had to choose an advanced midfielder to play second fiddle to a GOAT AM and yet shine to the extent of the team just not being the same without him, its Iniesta. Why I think he is even better than Socrates for the role is because he adds a lot of pressing off the ball which adds that 3rd ball retention capable midfielder which then enhances the midfield even more. You have 4 midfielders all capable of passing around for fun and 3 who will put a shift in off the ball, cant get much better. Of course, this idea is not original, @Jim Beam won a draft with it and the Iniesta role had rave reviews as expected. I remember I loved it instantly back then https://www.redcafe.net/threads/b2b-draft-final-2mufc0-vs-jim-bean.449260/
Falcao	Suarez	Now this is the pick I was most excited about. Inter Milan Suarez was something else. Played deep alongside a defensive midfielder in Bedin and launched great counters n line with Helenio Herrera's catenaccio philosophy. But then, he wasn't just about passing from the deep and the often made forays forward (mind you, scored 42 goals in 256 games at Inter) , he had really good work rate as well and could put a proper shift in and not just the extra midfielder defensive gig that I associate with other great deep lying playmakers (Pirlo/Scholes - I know you disagree with the latter, but lets not get into it). @harms in fact made a brilliant case for his work rate with game compilations back in the day, I cant remember which thread it was. Now all the above attributes bring 1 player to mind immediately - I will let harms give you the answer from one of his old game threads Luis Suarez Miramontes won the Ballon D’Or in 1960 as an attacking midfielder for Barca and two times came second and once third as a more of a deep-lying playmaker for Inter Milan. His playing style actually reminds me of P.R.Falcao, both compiled their creative side with tactical awareness and off-the-ball workrate that you don’t usually expect from geniuses like them. I believe that he is well-known at this board, especially after Joga’s brilliant work introducing him earlier. He is very different from Masopust though, which is why I believe they will work together - the latter preferred to carry the ball forward, although very well capable of a defence-splitting pass, while Suarez was a genuine playmaker who preferred the ball to do the running for him - although he showed enough Masopust-esque runs ending with the goal or the assist in his lengthy career. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-double-draft-r1-harms-vs-cal.420224/
Cerezo	Cerezo	I have already posted my explanation on his different roles in Serie A in response to @Physiocrat 's valid question above and obviously its the Sampdoria version I am playing. I think its unquestionable that he is fairly ideal for the setup and role here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

no idea how would United Ronaldo fit in that team

Ok, I will answer this 1 last thing. United Ronaldo in his peak was hardly playing a role limited to the wings or centrally or even left or right. He wanted to be nearer to the goal than his younger version but then roamed all over the place. A great example of this is 5-2 comeback against Tottenham. Creates from the left, creates from the right, has innumerable runs into the box centrally and scores a couple of goals as usual. That is exactly the kind of player I would want in Brazil 1982, someone mobile as feck and capable of playing anywhere across the front line. There might be a bit of apprehension with him being a GOAT, but I think he works perfectly there.



For me, Law is an even perfect replacement for Serginho. Contrary to how we end up showcasing Brazil 1982 remakes at times, they did have a proper No.9 , albeit one who could roam around and yet be a target in the box. I think that is Law to a tee.

 

[harms]

@harms in fact made a brilliant case for his work rate with game compilations back in the day, I cant remember which thread it was.

This is probably the one, at least I remember counting defensive actions and getting amazed by the eventual number (which I don't remember though).

 

[harms]

I'd have to think about Cristiano, the United version will ask for the ball constantly which is possibly not the best thing. Eder was also very involved, but he took was less touches in order to get into a goalscoring position and take a shot. Law is just perfect for that set up — and for Cristiano, actually, you can certainly see the resemblance between the flair version of Cristiano & Best, with whom Law had a brilliant understanding.

Scrappy's midfield is good — great even. You can kinda ask whenever it's going to handle the pressure when Gwazza & Fat Frank all push forward, but then any midfield would have an issue with that.

Does Koeman has enough targets up front to launch counters towards? Younger version of Rooney would be a nice one to have, but it's unlikely that fullbacks will be as high up at the point of transition and neither Romario nor Lampard (to a lesser extent) are ideal for this.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'd have to think about Cristiano, the United version will ask for the ball constantly which is possibly not the best thing. Eder was also very involved, but he took was less touches in order to get into a goalscoring position and take a shot.

Eder's game had much more common with United's Ronaldo than Madrid's Ronaldo IMO.

For one, he was a really good dribbler who could easily beat multiple players through one dribble. And wasn't just a final third player, could start fairly deep as well and get involved in the build up. Some excellent 1-2's too as is expected with anyone from that Brazil team. Point being, he had enough scope to express himself and not just be left as a final third runner. I did have some Eder stuff handy but my gif creator is not working to upload it.

And lastly of course, Eder (appropriately nicknamed O Canhão - The Cannon) had a thunderous freekick on him, a skill sadly Ronaldo lost once he left United.

Does Koeman has enough targets up front to launch counters towards? Younger version of Rooney would be a nice one to have, but it's unlikely that fullbacks will be as high up at the point of transition and neither Romario nor Lampard (to a lesser extent) are ideal for this.

Was my first thought and only criticism of @2mufc0 's team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Excellent posts @GodShaveTheQueen !

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Excellent posts @GodShaveTheQueen !

Thanks mate.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Ronaldo at United is a perfectly fit for @GodShaveTheQueen .He can beat a lot of multiple defenders and can do a lot of things with a ball like Eder had done during World Cup1982.Both of them like to take some long shots during the game.Imo Zico during wc1982 was a final third god who can do everything on The field,passing,scoring and creating chances.Even in his United days he was great At finding spaces to received the ball,I can imagine Ronaldo and Zico will drag a lot of 2mufc defenders and Law will have a lot chances to score.

Maybe I can see Zico does killer passes to Ronaldo in the wing and Ronaldo will cut inside to scoring or doing his things.

Iniesta in my mind is an upgrade Girese of France and Girese did a job of his side kick really well,even a lot times he was a main playmaker of France(especially1984) when Platini went aggressively to penalty box to scored.Have Iniesta as sidekick will add a lot of chances for Zico to go more in penalty box to scored as well,and Zico is probably the best finisher from CAM position too(better than Platini and especially Maradona).Iniesta will do his job really well for sure.Zico would be happy with him.

GSTQ is a hell of creativity in midfielders.Zico,Ineista and Suarez are probably a heaven for Ronaldo(front3 in United) and Law type of players.Ronaldo ball hog will be not a problem in this game,Zico and Iniesta will do great passes to him and in this situations he will have a lot of more spaces and can even use his speed better to isolate with Cafu.

 

[Himannv]

Are Dietz and Anderson suitable fits for this sort of tactic? Not a criticism - I just don't know much about them.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Are Dietz and Anderson suitable fits for this sort of tactic? Not a criticism - I just don't know much about them.

Both were pretty balanced and contributed on both sides of the pitch.

Dietz scored 70 goals in 376 games for Duisburg in Bundesliga which sound too good to be true. Of course, it's tough to speak on the nature of these goals or his general attacking attributes as you wouldn't find too much footage of a little German club. But if quotes and general articles are to go by, he had a great shot on him, had very good pace, liked to get involved in build up and scored a lot of headers. He was naturally right footed by the way but could use both feet from what I have seen of the footage and goals available. Not that it matters in this game, but he played all sorts of roles as his career progressed. Wingback, fullback, left CB and a sweeper/libero. Captained Germany to their 1980 Euro success playing at CB. His versatility of roles at different phases of career made him an ideal pick for this draft in my eyes with injuries.

Anderson was no Leandro technically, but was consistently involved in attacks, could cross and make runs forward and overlaps. I wouldn't call him an ideal player for this setup as on the right side at least I would want a more aggressive expansive player, but I didn't get a chance to pick one. Maybe I can upgrade if I win and get a chance with good rolls of the dice. He is certainly no misfit though, just upgradeable.

 

[harms]

Eder's game had much more common with United's Ronaldo than Madrid's Ronaldo IMO.

For one, he was a really good dribbler who could easily beat multiple players through one dribble. And wasn't just a final third player, could start fairly deep as well and get involved in the build up. Some excellent 1-2's too as is expected with anyone from that Brazil team. Point being, he had enough scope to express himself and not just be left as a final third runner. I did have some Eder stuff handy but my gif creator is not working to upload it.

Oh, that I’m not going to argue with. The issue is the amount of time that they would want to have on the ball. Cristiano isn’t going to settle for a sidekick role.

 

[Gio]

Are Dietz and Anderson suitable fits for this sort of tactic? Not a criticism - I just don't know much about them.

I think Dietz may be the highest scoring left-back of all time. He’s the pick I like the best out of the two sides.

Like the forward choices for GSTQ, they fit the shape well. The midfield is obviously the sex on the ball. Defence very well constructed too. For 2mufc I really like the back 5 unit. Fine set-up for Koeman and looks like it can soak up the inevitable pressure that will be applied up against such a luxurious midfield. The main route to goal looks like Gazza and Lampard breaking through. Romario doesn't look a natural fit neither to a containing 3-5-2 nor the suite of northern Europeans around him. That said, Rooney offers good partnership potential while Lampard’s passing is generally under appreciated.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Oh, that I’m not going to argue with. The issue is the amount of time that they would want to have on the ball. Cristiano isn’t going to settle for a sidekick role.

Possible. One thing I would say is Fergie's United teams were never known for a shit ton of creativity from central midfield aside from Scholes. So the wide men and forwards like Ronaldo and Rooney not just got to but had to do a lot more on the ball for the team to be a great attack. But with the riches on offer from midfield here, I think Cristiano might not mind slightly lesser time on the ball, considering he will get a lot more chances to score. Always did come across as someone who valued goals more than anything else even in his United days and more so in his Madrid days.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@GodShaveTheQueen i have never watched the original team so my concerns are with the players you picked, im very familiar with what Suarez brings to the table considering i watched every full game available of his and IMO him and Iniesta are the polar opposites in terms of playing style and football vision. I look at that team and i see all players that prefer to have ball at their feet, all 4 midfielders + both "strikers" as well. Ronaldo loved a goal at United as well and he loved to go forward and everything you said but most of that was with the ball compared to his late Madrid peak(and for me his comfortably the best version) where he stopped trying to match Messi in terms of playing style and playing football and focused on getting goals and match him there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

him and Iniesta are the polar opposites in terms of playing style and football vision.

I find that to be an odd statement. I don't link players to a particular football vision as such. Teams have football vision, players are just pawns who execute it. No reason why a particular pawn can't work in different football visions. It might be tough to visualise at times as they haven't necessarily played in a particular setup in real life, but that is why we play drafts I suppose.

Don't want to go into all the specifics of your post, I don't have much more to add than what I have already posted about the team the individuals. Will respond to one last thing about the team though

I look at that team and i see all players that prefer to have ball at their feet, all 4 midfielders + both "strikers" as well.

What you don't see is that there are 3 players who absolutely loved to receive the ball in goal scoring positions as well. Their games were not limited to magic with the ball at their feet. Don't see why they can't play different roles in different phases based on who takes up the creator role and who takes up the scorer role. Besides, the speed of transition and quick interplay was as sexy as it was in that Brazil team because all of them loved the ball at their feet, including Junior and Leandro and Eder.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I find that to be an odd statement. I don't link players to a particular football vision as such. Teams have football vision, players are just pawns who execute it. No reason why a particular pawn can't work in different football visions. It might be tough to visualise at times as they haven't necessarily played in a particular setup in real life, but that is why we play drafts I suppose.

Sure they are pawns but they also have preferred style of play, if a player is suited to a possession football and you put him in a direct team that plays on the wing, that wont end well and you wont see the best of your pawn(just an example nothing with your team specifically). So for me you have Iniesta who is at best and most comfortable in a possession based team and then you have Suarez who is a brilliant counter-attacking player. Would they work in opposite systems? Possibly but would that be the best use? We saw Iniesta level take a massive dive once Barca moved away from tiki taka and when they switched to a more direct(still in possession territory) unit with Rakitic instead of Xavi and MSN up front.

What you don't see is that there are 3 players who absolutely loved to receive the ball in goal scoring positions as well. Their games were not limited to magic with the ball at their feet. Don't see why they can't play different roles in different phases based on who takes up the creator role and who takes up the scorer role. Besides, the speed of transition and quick interplay was as sexy as it was in that Brazil team because all of them loved the ball at their feet, including Junior and Leandro and Eder.

maybe thats why they achieved feck all
On a serious note, im not that familiar with Zico so maybe he makes it work but i just dont see it with United version of Ronaldo.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I think Suarez can fit with Iniesta well,If you have some dm behind Suarez.Suarez and Ineista workrates are exceptional for small man midfielders and I think Suarez and Ineista can make a perfect tiki-tika too.Maybe Godshave team will have more possessions during the game for sure.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

then you have Suarez who is a brilliant counter-attacking player.

Suarez is not a counter attacking player. The team he played in was a counter attacking team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Suarez is not a counter attacking player. The team he played in was a counter attacking team.

He played for Spain with Puskas and co. in a more possession based team and they flopped massively with Suarez not being anywhere close to his Inter form. He loses possession way to often with his passing to be great(we talking about GOAT level) anywhere bar in the fast counter-attacking system.
So to answer that, he isnt a counter attacking player but counter attacking team suits him the most.

 

[General_Elegancia]

He played for Spain with Puskas and co. in a more possession based team and they flopped massively with Suarez not being anywhere close to his Inter form. He loses possession way to often with his passing to be great(we talking about GOAT level) anywhere bar in the fast counter-attacking system.
So to answer that, he isnt a counter attacking player but counter attacking team suits him the most.

He shined most in Grande Inter yes,absolutely right.
But I still think he wouldn’t flop in possessions football for sure.His skillset can be play in this system easily.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

He played for Spain with Puskas and co. in a more possession based team and they flopped massively with Suarez not being anywhere close to his Inter form.

Every non possession team is not a counter attacking team. Brazil 1982 was hardly a possession based team as well.

Anyways, I didn't expect everyone to buy this, so the apprehension is understandable. Let's see if I can change things around next round.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Every non possession team is not a counter attacking team. Brazil 1982 was hardly a possession based team as well.

Anyways, I didn't expect everyone to buy this, so the apprehension is understandable. Let's see if I can change things around next round.

neither was that spain, it was more possession based oriented then his Grande Inter side, probably expressed myself poorly.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Cheers @2mufc0

 

[2mufc0]

Cheers @2mufc0

GG mate.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I think Dietz may be the highest scoring left-back of all time. He’s the pick I like the best out of the two sides.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I think Dietz may be the highest scoring left-back of all time. He’s the pick I like the best out of the two sides.

As I have checked today about left back scoring
Bernard Dietz 92goals in 668matches 0.14 goals/per game
Andreas Brehme 88goals in 709matches 0.13goals/per game
Roberto Carlos 128goals in 1110 matches 0.12goals/per game
Giacinto Fachetti 78goals in 723matches 0.11goals/per game
John Arne Riise 81goals in 864matches 0.09goals/per game
Ian Harte 97goals in 611matches 0.16goals/per game

Overall,the best left back scorer is Ian Harte,his ratio per game is the best of all left-backs in the history.
Dietz is one of the best and he places in the second places follow by Brehme,Carlos,Fachetti and Riise

Breitner....he scored a lot of goals during his midfielder days.His scoring records when he was left-back(1970-1975) wasn't so impressive.

Ranking(all of them had played over 500+ games)
1.Harte
2.Dietz
3.Brehme
4.Carlos
5.Fachetti
6.Riise

Dietz

Dietz was initially intended for the offensive position of the left wing during 1970-1972,then he had played at left back during 1972-1979 for 7 years at MSV Duisburg,after 1979-1980 or 1980/1981(I'm not sure) season he changed the position from left back to libero and then he retired in 1987.Dietz was a real gentlemen of the game,he was never sent off,he got only 11 yellow cards during his playing days.

Dietz was a very consitency player,he had 7 times Bundesliga team of season and the last time in 1984-1985 he was 37 years old.Although he was a very consistency player,he hold the record of 221 defeats and that's not good for a player like him.Dietz also had an experience in Bundesliga 2 during 1983/1984 season.IMO he was one of the most underrated German players ever,he was a very complete defender,good pace,tackling,running and good scoring skills for defenders.

Dietz was a former striker when he was very young too.

His highlights
He captained the West Germany 1980 and won the championship as a captain.Dietz wasn't a type of Roy Keane or Oliver Kahn type of leader but everyone in the team still obeyed and respected to him due to his performances and detemination in the field,he led everyone in the team by example and in that team they had some of egotistical and arrogance players like Schumacher and Rummenigge or drama queen like Schuster but he can still controlled those toxic/diva.After Dietz captained in Euro1980,he retired in National team during 1981 due to his criticizing about Paul brietner returned to National Team,whom Dietz felt that would weild a negative influences to the rest of squads.

And Germany 82 ,Imo is one of the most toxic of all times.This team was combine egotistical and arrogance players like Harald Schumacher,Rummenigge and another troublemaker veteran guy like Breitner.Although Breitner is one of the best mf/lb of all times,I feel like he has been a very toxic person(in some story) from his playing day until today.He has a problem with anyone since Lattek's Bayern,Real Madrid,Braunschweig to national team.If Schuster is a king of diva,I will say that Breitner is a king of troublemaker too.

 

[Gio]

Well there we go. All hail King Harte.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Nice post @General_Elegancia