Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

Roboc7

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This is a pet peeves of mine. Judge main job is as a subaltern of Baty, he is in charge of equity and debt management and there is literally nothing that can see Woodward lose control or involvement since he is the CEO. Now the reason why Judge ended up with the transfer negotiations is because Bolingbroke left the club for Inter, which led Woodward to do it for one window and he then got rid of it. Also nothing suggests that a DOF wouldn't use Judge in the same capacity, someone like Judge is merely a water carrier, he only follows instructions.
A proper DOF would mean big chances for everyone, simple as that. Tasks being done by people at the club would be handed over and anyone competent would ditch Judge as he gets bent over in every negotiation. And fact he has just ended up with the negotiations only underlines my point.

If they wanted change it would happen, look at Woodward’s UWS interview, that’s not someone looking to evole or make big changes. He just wants more time for him and everyone else to keep failing.
 

Rhyme Animal

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A proper DOF would mean big chances for everyone, simple as that. Tasks being done by people at the club would be handed over and anyone competent would ditch Judge as he gets bent over in every negotiation. And fact he has just ended up with the negotiations only underlines my point.

If they wanted change it would happen, look at Woodward’s UWS interview, that’s not someone looking to evole or make big changes. He just wants more time for him and everyone else to keep failing.
Absolutely this.

Bang on the money.
 

Revaulx

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You’d better hope we lose every game from now until Christmas because that’s the only way Ole is getting sacked any time soon.
He will be sacked as soon as Ed has a face-saving plan in place. I'm sure he's working on it now, but i can't see it being in place, let alone activated, until after the transfer window closes.
 

JPRouve

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A proper DOF would mean big chances for everyone, simple as that. Tasks being done by people at the club would be handed over and anyone competent would ditch Judge as he gets bent over in every negotiation. And fact he has just ended up with the negotiations only underlines my point.

If they wanted change it would happen, look at Woodward’s UWS interview, that’s not someone looking to evole or make big changes. He just wants more time for him and everyone else to keep failing.
But a new DOF would mean that these everyone are on board which negates everything you said, the only person that would lose something is Murtough. Woodward would be the CEO and everyones boss while Judge would be doing what he is supposed to do as one of the CFO deputies. Now the funny thing about Judge is that the first time that someone really mentioned him it was Mourinho who was full of praises, as far as I can remember everyone was happy after the first two summers, Judge became a punk after one window where we signed Sanchez, as for Woodward nothing will make him lose power which is why it's more likely that he is a mix of ineptitude and cowardice more than anything else. Changing United structure and officially going away from the Busby/Ferguson model will require someone that is willing to be under intense fire from the clubs legends and the press if things get initially tough and Woodward seems to be a bit fragile in that department.
 

Roboc7

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But a new DOF would mean that these everyone are on board which negates everything you said, the only person that would lose something is Murtough. Woodward would be the CEO and everyones boss while Judge would be doing what he is supposed to do as one of the CFO deputies. Now the funny thing about Judge is that the first time that someone really mentioned him it was Mourinho who was full of praises, as far as I can remember everyone was happy after the first two summers, Judge became a punk after one window where we signed Sanchez, as for Woodward nothing will make him lose power which is why it's more likely that he is a mix of ineptitude and cowardice more than anything else. Changing United structure and officially going away from the Busby/Ferguson model will require someone that is willing to be under intense fire from the clubs legends and the press if things get initially tough and Woodward seems to be a bit fragile in that department.
Judge has consistently negotiated poor deals and wasted ten of millions. Fact that has been allowed to continue shows there is either incompetence or unwillingness to change.

Woodward, Judge, Murtough and others have all failed but keep their jobs. My point remains true, a top guy like Rangnick upsets the apple cart, makes changes, wants new appointments. Someone like that would mean big changes for everyone or they’d walk away from the job. Now if they brought in Darren Fletcher that would be different and your interpretation would be correct.

These guys like being paid huge salaries with no accountability, they don’t want to change. They just want every Utd fan to sit back, shut up and let them carry on despite failing.
 

lysglimt

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Why would we want someone who is 62 in the summer ? Realistically he will retire in 3-4 years...it will be another short-term solution.
 

JPRouve

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Judge has consistently negotiated poor deals and wasted ten of millions. Fact that has been allowed to continue shows there is either incompetence or unwillingness to change.

Woodward, Judge, Murtough and others have all failed but keep their jobs. My point remains true, a top guy like Rangnick upsets the apple cart, makes changes, wants new appointments. Someone like that would mean big changes for everyone or they’d walk away from the job. Now if they brought in Darren Fletcher that would be different and your interpretation would be correct.

These guys like being paid huge salaries with no accountability, they don’t want to change. They just want every Utd fan to sit back, shut up and let them carry on despite failing.
What is my interpretation? Rangnick would change nothing for Judge and Woodward in terms of job security or power, he would be a subaltern of Woodward and Judge would be a subaltern of Baty, Judge may or may not continue with the transfer negotiations but that's a secondary role for him, he wouldn't lose his main job because of the DOF. I don't really see what Fletcher has got anything to do with that.

Now, I do think that they have no intention to change the structure because doing that will put too much focus on Woodward, he won't be able to play the "tradition" card in the future, which is what I called cowardice and ineptitude. That last sentence is my interpretation not what you seem to have understood.
 

Lemansky

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Why would we want someone who is 62 in the summer ? Realistically he will retire in 3-4 years...it will be another short-term solution.
5 years is far from short term in football. If you hire this guy and have a red line when it comes to successors it’s no issue at all.
 

UDontMessWith24

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Why would we want someone who is 62 in the summer ? Realistically he will retire in 3-4 years...it will be another short-term solution.
What makes you think he'll retire? Not exactly a rarity for managers to manage into their late 60s.
 

Roboc7

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What is my interpretation? Rangnick would change nothing for Judge and Woodward in terms of job security or power, he would be a subaltern of Woodward and Judge would be a subaltern of Baty, Judge may or may not continue with the transfer negotiations but that's a secondary role for him, he wouldn't lose his main job because of the DOF. I don't really see what Fletcher has got anything to do with that.

Now, I do think that they have no intention to change the structure because doing that will put too much focus on Woodward, he won't be able to play the "tradition" card in the future, which is what I called cowardice and ineptitude. That last sentence is my interpretation not what you seem to have understood.

Of course he changes their power, he impacts what they do. He adds a different voice, different skill set and changes the dynamic. He’d make demands and decisions. It’s a huge change behind the scenes.

Fletcher is relevant because he is an example of type of DOF you are describing, someone with a lot less power and influence. As Rangnick himself said he’s not going anywhere unless he gets control, that power and control would be taken from other people. You could employ others who wouldn’t demand that of course.

All these guys behind the scenes are too
Comfortable, failing, being rewarded for it and have no accountability for their actions. It’s a terrible combination but it’s also easy to see why there is no desire for change. They put themselves before the club.
 

JPRouve

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Of course he changes their power, he impacts what they do. He adds a different voice, different skill set and changes the dynamic. He’d make demands and decisions. It’s a huge change behind the scenes.

Fletcher is relevant because he is an example of type of DOF you are describing, someone with a lot less power and influence. As Rangnick himself said he’s not going anywhere unless he gets control, that power and control would be taken from other people. You could employ others who wouldn’t demand that of course.

All these guys behind the scenes are too
Comfortable, failing, being rewarded for it and have no accountability for their actions. It’s a terrible combination but it’s also easy to see why there is no desire for change. They put themselves before the club.
I haven't described a DOF role, so I don't really know where you got that one from. And for the last time, Judge has no power, he is irrelevant in that conversation, he isn't a member of the board, he isn't an executive. Woodward doesn't lose any power, he is the CEO he can only give power to one of his subaltern none of them take anything from him, the only people that could do that are the owners.

If Woodward was to hire a DOF, that DOF would have the power that Woodward gave him, I have no idea what these would or wouldn't be but it wouldn't be a threat to Woodward because as the CEO he can take them away whenever he wants or he can extend them or he can sack the DOF if he isn't happy with him. You seem to not get that there will be a hierarchy even if a DOF was appointed and the CEO would be at the top of it.

A DOF would only take power away from the manager because it effectively splits the role and makes him a head coach.
 

AneRu

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Why would we want someone who is 62 in the summer ? Realistically he will retire in 3-4 years...it will be another short-term solution.
3 - 4 years is a complete cycle for a football team meaning that if successful we would be able to move on from a position of strength.
 

Roboc7

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I haven't described a DOF role, so I don't really know where you got that one from. And for the last time, Judge has no power, he is irrelevant in that conversation, he isn't a member of the board, he isn't an executive. Woodward doesn't lose any power, he is the CEO he can only give power to one of his subaltern none of them take anything from him, the only people that could do that are the owners.

If Woodward was to hire a DOF, that DOF would have the power that Woodward gave him, I have no idea what these would or wouldn't be but it wouldn't be a threat to Woodward because as the CEO he can take them away whenever he wants or he can extend them or he can sack the DOF if he isn't happy with him. You seem to not get that there will be a hierarchy even if a DOF was appointed and the CEO would be at the top of it.

A DOF would only take power away from the manager because it effectively splits the role and makes him a head coach.
Can repeat it over and over but missing the point that role varies from club to club. Judge is relevant because he is involved in transfers and contract negotiations, that’s a choice, it’s failing and good chance it would change.

I specifically gave Rangnick as an example because he’d want power, maybe a new subaltern of his own and responsibility which was my point. You are assuming all DOF would be same which isn’t true.
 

JPRouve

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Can repeat it over and over but missing the point that role varies from club to club. Judge is relevant because he is involved in transfers and contract negotiations, that’s a choice, it’s failing and good chance it would change.

I specifically gave Rangnick as an example because he’d want power, maybe a new subaltern of his own and responsibility which was my point. You are assuming all DOF would be same which isn’t true.
I will make it very simple, the CEO in all companies is at the top of the pyramid, no one takes power away from him outside of owners and the board of executives. You seem to think that I'm describing the job of the DOF when I'm simply telling you that at no point a CEO will lose power to a subaltern because he is the one giving and taking said power. If Woodward gives all the power that Rangnick demands it changes nothing for Woodward, he still retains these powers himself because he is the CEO.
 

Roboc7

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I will make it very simple, the CEO in all companies is at the top of the pyramid, no one takes power away from him outside of owners and the board of executives. You seem to think that I'm describing the job of the DOF when I'm simply telling you that at no point a CEO will lose power to a subaltern because he is the one giving and taking said power. If Woodward gives all the power that Rangnick demands it changes nothing for Woodward, he still retains these powers himself because he is the CEO.
No one needs you to explain what a CEO is, you’ve completely missed the point about the potential implications. Job descriptions, responsibilities etc all change and evolve. This club hasn’t done that and appears reluctant to do so. That’s either due to incompetence, unwillingness or being incredibly slow to change.
 

JPRouve

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No one needs you to explain what a CEO is, you’ve completely missed the point about the potential implications. Job descriptions, responsibilities etc all change and evolve. This club hasn’t done that and appears reluctant to do so. That’s either due to incompetence, unwillingness or being incredibly slow to change.
I haven't missed the point, I simply pointed to the fact that what you suggested wasn't correct, the CEO isn't losing power if he hires a DOF, but I agree with your last sentence which is the crucial part for United.
 

red thru&thru

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United recently dispatched a member of Woodward’s staff to a lengthy meeting with Rangnick, ostensibly to question him about his experience in setting up the RB Leipzig academy and coaching network [Honigstein]

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/dskumw/united_recently_dispatched_a_member_of_woodwards/
I've been saying this for so many months now and if true, it would show some progress from Ed. Honigstein knows his stuff when it comes to German football, so hopefully there is some truth in all these recent links with Rangnick.
 

AneRu

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I've been saying this for so many months now and if true, it would show some progress from Ed. Honigstein knows his stuff when it comes to German football, so hopefully there is some truth in all these recent links with Rangnick.
Reports in Germany indicate that he wants to be manager, I have a few doubts about this if this is so. Whilst I like what he has done for Red Bull re-team building the guy hasn't really pulled up trees in his managerial career and I doubt he could succeed where Mourinho and Van Gaal failed.

I'd say we need him as DOF and that is a longer term role not entirely dependent on on-pitch results. If we bring him as manager and results go south it could turn out to be so toxic that he can't even stay as DOF. Maybe as caretaker manager with the undertaking to bring in a permanent manager next summer.
 

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Reports in Germany indicate that he wants to be manager, I have a few doubts about this if this is so. Whilst I like what he has done for Red Bull re-team building the guy hasn't really pulled up trees in his managerial career and I doubt he could succeed where Mourinho and Van Gaal failed.

I'd say we need him as DOF and that is a longer term role not entirely dependent on on-pitch results. If we bring him as manager and results go south it could turn out to be so toxic that he can't even stay as DOF. Maybe as caretaker manager with the undertaking to bring in a permanent manager next summer.
I don't think he would want to manage the team on a fulltime basis because he took a break after his stint at Schalke due to burnout. He was even offered the position as Headcoach on a fulltime basis at RB Leipzig and turned it down according to reports and preferred the technical director role.

He would probably take up the managers role as a interim at United but wouldn't want it fulltime. If he comes to United it would be as a DoF and that would be under certain conditions so he can make his mark at the club.
 
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red thru&thru

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I don't think he would want to manage the team on fulltime basis because he took a break after his stint at Schalke due to burnout. He was even offered the position as Headcoach on a fulltime basis at RB Leipzig and turned it down according to reports and preferred the technical director role.

He would probably take up the managers role as a interim at United but wouldn't want it fulltime. If he comes to United it would be as a DoF and that would be under certain conditions so he can make his mark at the club.
Yea, maybe it's some kind of tactic whereby he would like to manage the team, get to know the character of the players and then he knows who to ship out and who to bring in? I don't know but definitely the long term strategy has to be him as a DoF. But the fact that Ed could have sent someone out to him to council on potentially applying the RB blue print to our club, doesn't sound a bad idea at all.
 

AneRu

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I don't think he would want to manage the team on a fulltime basis because he took a break after his stint at Schalke due to burnout. He was even offered the position as Headcoach on a fulltime basis at RB Leipzig and turned it down according to reports and preferred the technical director role.

He would probably take up the managers role as a interim at United but wouldn't want it fulltime. If he comes to United it would be as a DoF and that would be under certain conditions so he can make his mark at the club.
If that's so then he is our guy, could build incredible foundations at the club which has lost it's way.
Yea, maybe it's some kind of tactic whereby he would like to manage the team, get to know the character of the players and then he knows who to ship out and who to bring in? I don't know but definitely the long term strategy has to be him as a DoF. But the fact that Ed could have sent someone out to him to council on potentially applying the RB blue print to our club, doesn't sound a bad idea at all.
This would make sense, solve an issue in the interim whilst the guy charged with the long term rebuild gets an early start to get to grips with the nature of the beast confronting him. However the club seems stark in paralysis when it should be making concrete moves.
 

do.ob

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I don't think he would want to manage the team on fulltime basis because he took a break after his stint at Schalke due to burnout. He was even offered the position as Headcoach on a fulltime basis at RB Leipzig and turned it down according to reports and preferred the technical director role.

He would probably take up the managers role as a interim at United but wouldn't want it fulltime. If he comes to United it would be as a DoF and that would be under certain conditions so he can make his mark at the club.
He has done coaching after Schalke though, first he finished the season after Zorniger stepped down (due to being under pressure and going to replaced at the end of season anyway) and then he coached a full season last year, when Hasenhüttl resigned instead of being a stop gap until Nagelsmann was done in Hoffenheim. When his agent rejected Bayern in public a couple of days ago he didn't say it was because his client is done coaching either.

Used to be regarded as a tactical visionary early in his career (for making modern tactical concepts like back four, pressing and zonal marking popular in Germany in the 90s), but now that those visions have become the norm (the development in Germany over the past 20-30 years is quite amazing imho) he's a decent coach with the typical intense and direct style of a lot of Bundesliga clubs. Good enough for top 4, but not good enough to relentlessly dominate a league Guardiola style.

He comes off as a authoritative technocrate, at a club like Leipzig, where players are very young and mostly unproven that hasn't been a big issue, but at United with big egoes and big contracts some conflicts could arise.

I don't think it would be a terrible idea to appoint him coach for a while, he'd get to know the players/process at the club and it might as well be him who implements his tactical philosophy within the squad. But it should also be clear that he should make way for a younger coach after steadying the ship.
 

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He has done coaching after Schalke though, first he finished the season after Zorniger stepped down (due to being under pressure and going to replaced at the end of season anyway) and then he coached a full season last year, when Hasenhüttl resigned instead of being a stop gap until Nagelsmann was done in Hoffenheim. When his agent rejected Bayern in public a couple of days ago he didn't say it was because his client is done coaching either.

Used to be regarded as a tactical visionary early in his career (for making modern tactical concepts like back four, pressing and zonal marking popular in Germany in the 90s), but now that those visions have become the norm (the development in Germany over the past 20-30 years is quite amazing imho) he's a decent coach with the typical intense and direct style of a lot of Bundesliga clubs. Good enough for top 4, but not good enough to relentlessly dominate a league Guardiola style.

He comes off as a authoritative technocrate, at a club like Leipzig, where players are very young and mostly unproven that hasn't been a big issue, but at United with big egoes and big contracts some conflicts could arise.

I don't think it would be a terrible idea to appoint him coach for a while, he'd get to know the players/process at the club and it might as well be him who implements his tactical philosophy within the squad. But it should also be clear that he should make way for a younger coach after steadying the ship.
I have a feeling we're gonna see him as interim in January. I can't see the Glazers backing Ole in January with so much uncertainty surrounding the club.
 

theklr

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I have a feeling we're gonna see him as interim in January. I can't see the Glazers backing Ole in January with so much uncertainty surrounding the club.
No way Ole isnt getting a full season with all the talk about backing him up long-term. Only way i see him going out before the summer is that we are in relegation zone and out of Europa league .

And tbh, with the current squad and injury problems, it wouldnt be fair to ship him out if we are still around mid-table and still in Europa league by January.
 

Varun1

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In a year's time, Ed will still be leaking stories about a DoF after we've lost a game against a team in the bottom half.

These guys run a football club, surely they know better than us? But I simply can't see why we don't have a DoF yet, makes zero sense.

Unless there's something cooking in the background, takeover being agreed, new owners to implement their own ideas... This sort of thing.
 

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No way Ole isnt getting a full season with all the talk about backing him up long-term. Only way i see him going out before the summer is that we are in relegation zone and out of Europa league .

And tbh, with the current squad and injury problems, it wouldnt be fair to ship him out if we are still around mid-table and still in Europa league by January.
Often the board coming out and saying they back the manager is the kiss of death. It's common for the board of a club to have said that only for the manager to be gone within a couple of weeks.

In saying that, I don't expect him to be fired any time soon but he won't last the season unless he gets a lot closer to top 4.
 

AneRu

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No way Ole isnt getting a full season with all the talk about backing him up long-term. Only way i see him going out before the summer is that we are in relegation zone and out of Europa league .

And tbh, with the current squad and injury problems, it wouldnt be fair to ship him out if we are still around mid-table and still in Europa league by January.
His sack is already overdue and him lasting a season will set us back another few years. At the moment the only thing keeping him is Woodward fearing losing face over a rushed decision that's proven to be disastrous, a big club doesn't need to be in a relegation scrap to know that they are underperforming. That lack of adherence to big club standards has been our undoing since Moyes stepped in and stayed three months too long.
 

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I'd rather see us keep the present system then hire Fletcher as DOF. Hiring Fletcher would mean having to sack yet another nobody with nothing to offer apart from the sentimentality card once the club decide to take football seriously again.
 

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I'd rather see us keep the present system then hire Fletcher as DOF. Hiring Fletcher would mean having to sack yet another nobody with nothing to offer apart from the sentimentality card once the club decide to take football seriously again.
After Woodward’s recent quotes I don’t think United are ever going to hire a DoF, but hiring Fletcher in that role would be ridiculous. They have to get someone with experience who wouldn’t have to learn on the job.
 

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His sack is already overdue and him lasting a season will set us back another few years. At the moment the only thing keeping him is Woodward fearing losing face over a rushed decision that's proven to be disastrous, a big club doesn't need to be in a relegation scrap to know that they are underperforming. That lack of adherence to big club standards has been our undoing since Moyes stepped in and stayed three months too long.
I don’t know about this. His tactics are questionable at times, but he seems to be doing everything right in terms of building the squad. We filled three key positions over the summer, and yes we needed more, but at least we’re not buying three more LWF’s or offering washed up players ridiculous salaries. He’s also shut out Matic, Mata, Rojo, and more, which is absolutely the right thing to do.

It’s so frustrating it’s not working on the pitch because I fully agree with everything he’s doing with the squad and would trust him to spend well in future transfer windows. At least if he gets another summer and takes us in the next season, and we sack him next December, whoever follows him will have something to work with. It may not be an amazing squad but the foundations are there.
 

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I don’t know about this. His tactics are questionable at times, but he seems to be doing everything right in terms of building the squad. We filled three key positions over the summer, and yes we needed more, but at least we’re not buying three more LWF’s or offering washed up players ridiculous salaries. He’s also shut out Matic, Mata, Rojo, and more, which is absolutely the right thing to do.

It’s so frustrating it’s not working on the pitch because I fully agree with everything he’s doing with the squad and would trust him to spend well in future transfer windows. At least if he gets another summer and takes us in the next season, and we sack him next December, whoever follows him will have something to work with. It may not be an amazing squad but the foundations are there.
We bought James, a LW, and gave contracts to Mata, Young and Jones. Maguire also doesn't seem that great upgrade over Smalling so far.

I don't see any squad building. The next manager will have to spend +300m to be anywhere close to 3rd spot or so. I actually feel sorry for that upcoming manager from now.
 

JPRouve

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I don’t know about this. His tactics are questionable at times, but he seems to be doing everything right in terms of building the squad. We filled three key positions over the summer, and yes we needed more, but at least we’re not buying three more LWF’s or offering washed up players ridiculous salaries. He’s also shut out Matic, Mata, Rojo, and more, which is absolutely the right thing to do.

It’s so frustrating it’s not working on the pitch because I fully agree with everything he’s doing with the squad and would trust him to spend well in future transfer windows. At least if he gets another summer and takes us in the next season, and we sack him next December, whoever follows him will have something to work with. It may not be an amazing squad but the foundations are there.
That's a very kind view. On a football team there isn't a lot of positions to fill, so pretty much every club purchase players in areas of need it's not a special talent and it's not something that we didn't do before Solskjaer. Then you have to consider that we brought an attacking player that predominantly played of the left, an 80m CB when we already had 7 at the club and a 50m RB that isn't particularly good going forward while basically ignoring the fact that we still don't have an actual right winger, we don't have a proper #10 even though the manager use a tactic that require one and our CMs don't fit together.

We are basically praising Ole, for signing expensive and known players with only one of them actually fitting an immediate need when you consider squad depth and quality because anything we currently have on the right wing or as #10 is worse than Smalling instead of Maguire and that's barely debatable.
 

devilish

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After Woodward’s recent quotes I don’t think United are ever going to hire a DoF, but hiring Fletcher in that role would be ridiculous. They have to get someone with experience who wouldn’t have to learn on the job.
What we need is an experienced man who is in the agents/clubs loop. That means he'll have an in depth knowledge of various leagues, whose available, who is interested in selling and at what prices + who might be ready to buy our players. Its ridiculous that it takes us the entire summer to buy just 3 players

Fletcher lack that and honestly we got enough men who are only able to discover EPL proven players at 50m-80m a pop already
 

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What we need is an experienced man who is in the agents/clubs loop. That means he'll have an in depth knowledge of various leagues, whose available, who is interested in selling and at what prices + who might be ready to buy our players. Its ridiculous that it takes us the entire summer to buy just 3 players

Fletcher lack that and honestly we got enough men who are able to discover EPL proven players at 50m-80m a pop already
Yes.