Manager draft - Fercutchon(Cutch) VS The Capillows(EAP)

[Chesterlestreet]

Out of interest, how do people rate Redondo (1 season of evidence) and Desailly as a partnership compared to the all conquering complementary pairing of Keane-Scholes?

It's obviously not comparable in terms of being "proven".

Individually it's about even, I'd say. Considering the absolute peak of each player, I'd personally have Redondo a tiny notch above the other three - but that's debatable, of course.

In terms of being Capello players it's a very interesting combo. Many would say that Redondo emerged as, well, himself (a defensive midfielder with a skill set rarely seen in the role he played) during that season under Capello. The latter certainly became very enamoured with Redondo - and wanted to bring him along when he went back to Italy.

As for Desailly, Edgar has already told that story - but I would say that the defensive midfielder version of Desailly under Capello was arguably his most impressive (in terms of how damn powerful he was in that role) incarnation.

 

[diarm]

Being brutally honest:

Schmeichel>Casillas
Irwin<Maldini
Stam<Baresi
Rio<Costacurta
Neville=Panucci
Keane>Redondo
Scholes>Desailly
Beckham=Donadoni
Ronaldo>Nedved
Cantona>Savicevic
Ruud<Van Basten

Team Fergie edges the one on ones 5-4. That said I think Edgar has the better tactics.
Very tough call this. I think Fergie edges the midfield with a better balanced duo but Edgar has the better defence.

I'm going to go with team Fergie because the idea of trying to contain Ruud, Eric and Ronaldo on the end of service from Scholes and Giggs is terrifyingly arousing.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Being brutally honest:

Schmeichel>Casillas
Irwin<Maldini
Stam<Baresi
Rio<Costacurta
Neville=Panucci
Keane>Redondo
Scholes>Desailly
Beckham=Donadoni
Ronaldo>Nedved
Cantona>Savicevic
Ruud<Van Basten

Team Fergie edges the one on ones 5-4. That said I think Edgar has the better tactics.
Very tough call this. I think Fergie edges the midfield with a better balanced duo but Edgar has the better defence.

I'm going to go with team Fergie because the idea of trying to contain Ruud, Eric and Ronaldo on the end of service from Scholes and Giggs is terrifyingly arousing.

1) There is no Giggs in the match.
2) It sould ideally be Desailly/Keane and Scholes/Redondo. Keane-Scholes = Desailly-Redondo. I do not think there is much separating them.
3) Savicevic > Cantona. Probably debatable.

What about the other way? Nedved, Savicevic, van Basten against Rio/Stam/Neville? I mentioned this before my defence is geared for his attack, his defence is not up to level of my attack.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Quoting myself to avoid being page bottomed...

It is virtually impossible to talk bad about that United team, so many personal favorites.

1) No one seems to be giving consideration on how his defence will perform against my attack. Nedved, van Basten, Savicevic were all at Ballon d'Or winning form, yet they do not seem to be making any difference here
* Keane is busy covering for CR and there is no way Rio/Stam can contain Savicevic/van Basten.
* Nedved against Neville also seems to gain me no traction.

2) Mine is one of the best proven defensive line-up's in the world and Redondo for Albertini just makes it better. Ronaldo is a matchwinner and cannot be 'stopped', but to see him just brush over this kind of defence (esp in his United form) is a bit unreasonable. He will get some joy, but I will get more.

3) Even forgetting Berg, Redondo has shown his class against Keane/Scholes midfield. Despite taking away Giggs workrate, it still seems I have not gained any advantage in the middle. With Redondo, Nedved and Donadoni there, I would certainly control the middle.

I would definitely put this contest 3-1 in my favour.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

and @diarm matchup's usually have at other end's. Ronaldo-RvN-Cantona against my defence. Nedved-Savicevic-vanBasten against his defence. You decide who'll have more joy at the end.

 

[Cutch]

I can think of few better to marshal Van Basten than fellow dutchman Jaap Stam. A beast in the air and with ample speed along the deck. G Nev and Denis are consistent out and out defenders who have shackled many of the worlds finest over a large number of years. Not flashy, but extremely reliable defenders. Rio covering, along with Nesta probably the best centrehalf of the last 15 years.

Oh, and this man as the last line of defence

 

[harms]

To be fair, if you are going about Ballon D'Or nominees, you have to include Beckham, at least, who was a runner-up in 1999. Totally different player to Savicevic. And another question - is that fair to judge him on his Red Star performances when he didn't even make the short-list next year? Not a dig at Savicevic, but I feel that you are overdoing it a bit with Ballon D'Or

Which year Redondo is here? I'm too lazy to check myself

 

[Theon]

Out of interest, how do people rate Redondo (1 season of evidence) and Desailly as a partnership compared to the all conquering complementary pairing of Keane-Scholes?

Keane/Scholes quite comfortably for me, primarily due to Keane who I thought was near perfect in his role.

The bigger confusion here is why the United defence does not seem to be getting rated, Stam and Ferdinand were absolutely fantastic. I can't think of 10 centre backs better than those two from the last 20 years. Not sure I can think of five actually.

 

[harms]

Being brutally honest:

Schmeichel>Casillas
Irwin<Maldini
Stam<Baresi
Rio<Costacurta
Neville=Panucci
Keane>Redondo
Scholes>Desailly
Beckham=Donadoni
Ronaldo>Nedved
Cantona>Savicevic
Ruud<Van Basten

Team Fergie edges the one on ones 5-4. That said I think Edgar has the better tactics.
Very tough call this. I think Fergie edges the midfield with a better balanced duo but Edgar has the better defence.

I'm going to go with team Fergie because the idea of trying to contain Ruud, Eric and Ronaldo on the end of service from Scholes and Giggs is terrifyingly arousing.

Did exactly the same thing when first saw the line-ups, which is strange, considering that I never did anything like that in my entire life
Though in mine Rio was >= Costacurta (discussion was in the main thread), Keane < Redondo (though, again, I don't know which year Redondo is it), Beckham > Donadoni (how is that even a question?) and Cantona = Savicevic

It's not a way to judge a match though

 

[Cutch]

My attack certainly isnt all about Ronaldo either. Ruud is a goalscoring phenomemon. Eric will drop deep between the lines (not sure what the plan is to deal with him) and in midfield Scholes and Beckhams best goalscoring season was 20 and 16 goals respectively.

Also should stress again that my attacking is geared towards taking his 2 GOAT defenders out of the game as best we can. Maldini won't be able to stop Beckhams crossing/switching play from deep, and Baresi will be powerless to stop the likes of Ronaldo coming in at the back post. Its a sure route to atleast 1 goal in this match.

 

[diarm]

1) There is no Giggs in the match.
2) It sould ideally be Desailly/Keane and Scholes/Redondo. Keane-Scholes = Desailly-Redondo. I do not think there is much separating them.
3) Savicevic > Cantona. Probably debatable.

What about the other way? Nedved, Savicevic, van Basten against Rio/Stam/Neville? I mentioned this before my defence is geared for his attack, his defence is not up to level of my attack.

Sorry I've no idea why I typed Giggs. I meant Scholes and Beckham.
That's fair enough about the midfield match ups and Redondo/Desailly would be superb. I just feel Keane/Scholes has a better balance. In fairness though I think your defense is better than his by more than his midfield is better than yours (if that makes sense).

I gave him the edge because I think his attacking 3 is just about more potent than yours. There's inches in it. 2 smashing teams and I'd pay any money you like to see such a game!

 

[harms]

Cantona also was 3rd in 1993 Ballon D'Or list, didn't know that, actually. Go team Cutch!

 

[Theon]

Keane < Redondo
Cantona = Savicevic

What's your reasons for thinking this out of interest?

Savicevic blew hot and cold and I don't think he had half the impact Cantona had at United. Keane/Redondo is more interesting as a discussion but I'm curious why you think Redondo was better - hopefully not that CL game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That's fair enough about the midfield match ups and Redondo/Desailly would be superb. I just feel Keane/Scholes has a better balance. In fairness though I think your defense is better than his by more than his midfield is better than yours (if that makes sense).

I gave him the edge because I think his attacking 3 is just about more potent than yours. There's inches in it. 2 smashing teams and I'd pay any money you like to see such a game!

Fair enough. From a purely 'protecting the defence' point of view, Desailly is poised to offer much more than Keane. Keane is not a pivot type DM. Desailly will consistently be there in the area where Ronaldo would usually cut in and would definitely play a crucial role in ensuring Ronaldo does not run riot. Keane on the other hand will have midfield support to do also in covering the gaps behind CR which kind of dilutes his impact, imo.

 

[Cutch]

Fair enough. From a purely 'protecting the defence' point of view, Desailly is poised to offer much more than Keane. Keane is not a pivot type DM. Desailly will consistently be there in the area where Ronaldo would usually cut in and would definitely play a crucial role in ensuring Ronaldo does not run riot. Keane on the other hand will have midfield support to do also in covering the gaps behind CR which kind of dilutes his impact, imo.

You are right in what you are saying, but i can't see how thats a bad thing. Its proof that your centre midfield is more limited than mine. Desailly in that role, and Redondo (anchorman of a 3 in 96-97 with Capello) doing the same sort of thing. In Keane and Scholes i've 2 all round complementary midfielders, both adept at getting forward or passing the ball from deep offering more creativity and link with attack. Its my team therefore trying to control the game and playing the game on the front foot.

 

[antohan]

Some of the issues/difficulties around fitting in Ronaldo are getting overplayed in my opinion. I do agree and take @Chesterlestreet 's point on Ronaldo being the centre of United's attack when his form peaked, but still I wouldn't make too much of that. It was much less of a trait of Ronaldo's than it is now for Madrid for instance, even in that 08 season he wasn't the pure goalscorer he is now. Then there's 06/07 in which Ronaldo properly became world class and United played their best football for years - in that year I don't think he would have been too difficult to fit in really. He was full of excellent wing play, pace and trickery and wasn't someone who needed others to play for him IMO. That's how I remember it anyway.

But aye, he was incredible. I prefer United Ronaldo to the Madrid version.

I agree United Ronaldo is easier to fit, particularly the 06/07 one. Issue is I would fit prime Giggs ahead of CR06/07.

 

[harms]

What's your reasons for thinking this out of interest?

Savicevic blew hot and cold and I don't think he had half the impact Cantona had at United. Keane/Redondo is more interesting as a discussion but I'm curious why you think Redondo was better - hopefully not that CL game.

Keane-Redondo was more of a <= than <, but I didn't want too many of them. I rate Redondo ridiculously high, first and foremost because he was so unique. Absolutely world-class DM with brilliant distribution skills and smooth technique. It's hard to compare them, though, they were so different.

Cantona is (on par with Scholes) my favorite player ever, so I'm stuck here between my fanboyism and "trying to be objective" (i.e. underrating) - and I don't think that I can find a middle ground here. Cantona was much more influential, but Savicevic has much more impressive record in Europe. I don't think that there is much between them in the eyes of a neutral.

 

[antohan]

I sort of agree and think Cutch would have been off with MF three of Robson, Keane and Scholes.

Ronaldo is ofcourse not an issue. His last two seasons at United were by far the best by any individual player in Fergie's time. As good as Giggs has been for us, his peak never reached that level. It is mind boggling how any one would not want him on the pitch for the sake of tactics or balance. Fergie himself or any coach of caliber for that matter would never bench such a player.

Crappy's mind: PRY CR, WET NEW SONG

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You are right in what you are saying, but i can't see how thats a bad thing. Its proof that your centre midfield is more limited than mine. Desailly in that role, and Redondo (anchorman of a 3 in 96-97 with Capello) doing the same sort of thing. In Keane and Scholes i've 2 all round complementary midfielders, both adept at getting forward or passing the ball from deep offering more creativity and link with attack. Its my team therefore trying to control the game and playing the game on the front foot.

Not quite. Mine is more discipline on who needs to do what.

With CR7, the lack of defensive workrate means Donadoni will have far more opportunities to exploit the space behind CR. Keane would have his hands full blocking that and providing support to central defence. Not the typical box-to-box Keane who was so effective for United. Kind of leaves Scholes isloated too. As I said, it is a very unbalanced midfield which puts Keane and Scholes in the defensive a bit too.

Secondly by just stating Keane won't take on Maldini, you just put Maldini totally out of the picture. I don't think he's just going to hover around letting Beckham do his work from the middle, right? he certainly has the dsicipline to step up to Beckham or tuck in to create a compact defence as necessary.

 

[Cutch]

I agree United Ronaldo is easier to fit, particularly the 06/07 one. Issue is I would fit prime Giggs ahead of CR06/07.

I loved the 06/07 Ronaldo, probably more than anyother, just before he became the goalscoring freak of nature. I don't think Giggs hit those sort of heights consistently over a season say, and i remember him more for home Champions League nights where he tore teams a new one.

Anyway, the reason for the decision here is clear. Becks on the right as i think he's perfect against Maldini, ie: not needing to try and beat him to get deliveries in plus his work all over the park. Ronaldo then is better equipped to deal with the switch of play from Scholes/Beckham, making runs in the channel for Eric and as a back post target from Beckham/Nevilles crosses.

 

[antohan]

Out of interest, how do people rate Redondo (1 season of evidence) and Desailly as a partnership compared to the all conquering complementary pairing of Keane-Scholes?

A good match and overall -all players considered- a more robust midfield.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Saviceivc vs Barcelona. Even with Guadriola in opposing team, he had such a stellar performance. I would not rate him at this peak behind Cantona.

 

[Gio]

Being brutally honest:

Schmeichel>Casillas
Irwin<Maldini
Stam<Baresi
Rio<Costacurta
Neville=Panucci
Keane>Redondo
Scholes>Desailly
Beckham=Donadoni
Ronaldo>Nedved
Cantona>Savicevic
Ruud<Van Basten

Team Fergie edges the one on ones 5-4. That said I think Edgar has the better tactics.
Very tough call this. I think Fergie edges the midfield with a better balanced duo but Edgar has the better defence.

I'm going to go with team Fergie because the idea of trying to contain Ruud, Eric and Ronaldo on the end of service from Scholes and Giggs is terrifyingly arousing.

I've bolded the dodgy ones.

 

[Cutch]

Not quite. Mine is more discipline on who needs to do what.

With CR7, the lack of defensive workrate means Donadoni will have far more opportunities to exploit the space behind CR. Keane would have his hands full blocking that and providing support to central defence. Not the typical box-to-box Keane who was so effective for United. Kind of leaves Scholes isloated too. As I said, it is a very unbalanced midfield which puts Keane and Scholes in the defensive a bit too.

Secondly by just stating Keane won't take on Maldini, you just put Maldini totally out of the picture. I don't think he's just going to hover around letting Beckham do his work from the middle, right? he certainly has the dsicipline to step up to Beckham or tuck in to create a compact defence as necessary.

Keane won't be going anywhere, he's got no need to be getting involved out wide where we've got Mr dependable Denis Irwin. Keane and Scholes will play their usual game in the centre, nothing different to what they're used to facing here.

I'm not assuming Maldini will be out of the picture completely of course, just that i've a player facing him with the advantage of not having to beat a man to get quality delivery in.

 

[antohan]

Being brutally honest:

Schmeichel>Casillas
Irwin<Maldini
Stam<Baresi
Rio<Costacurta
Neville=Panucci
Keane>Redondo
Scholes>Desailly
Beckham=Donadoni
Ronaldo>Nedved
Cantona>Savicevic
Ruud<Van Basten

Team Fergie edges the one on ones 5-4. That said I think Edgar has the better tactics.
Very tough call this. I think Fergie edges the midfield with a better balanced duo but Edgar has the better defence.

I'm going to go with team Fergie because the idea of trying to contain Ruud, Eric and Ronaldo on the end of service from Scholes and Giggs is terrifyingly arousing.

What a blast from the past! Why do people persist with resuscitating this player comparison nonsense? At the very least you have to compare functions, not individuals.

e.g.
Rio-Stam vs. van Basten-Savicevic + Baresi-Costacurta vs. Ruud-Cantona => EAP wins on both/jointly, far more likely to score
Maldini-Nedved vs Neville-Beckham => EAP wins
Panucci-Donadoni vs. Irwin-Cristiano => Cutch wins
Redondo-Desailly vs. Scholes-Keane => Evens

 

[Cutch]

A good match and overall -all players considered- a more robust midfield.

More robust certainly. They lose out in other areas though

 

[antohan]

I'm not assuming Maldini will be out of the picture completely of course, just that i've a player facing him with the advantage of not having to beat a man to get quality delivery in.

Nedved

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Keane won't be going anywhere, he's got no need to be getting involved out wide where we've got Mr dependable Denis Irwin. Keane and Scholes will play their usual game in the centre, nothing different to what they're used to facing here.

I'm not assuming Maldini will be out of the picture completely of course, just that i've a player facing him with the advantage of not having to beat a man to get quality delivery in.

No it's not. I have Nedved there runnig interference for Beckham. When you have the ball...with Nedved's workrate, I really think you overestimate the effect Beckham has in this match. Nedved is perfectly suitable to run interference on Beckham. On the counter, I still think Nedved will trump Neville with his pace and trickery with Maldini holding the fort behind him. Either way that wing is mine.

On the other wing, when you have the ball, Ronaldo will still have Panucci, Desailly and Costacurta to tackle. But when I gain possession, CR is not going to give you the tracking back Donadoni offers. Panucci is intelligent enough to know when to step out. Ronaldo is more of a threat when you have the ball, but as much as a liability when I have it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nedved

I just posted that too!

 

[Cutch]

Nedved

Edgar can do what he likes with Nedved, i'm just explainin why Beckhams playing.

edit: possibly misunderstood your point, not clear

 

[antohan]

More robust certainly. They lose out in other areas though

I didn't mean the pair, but the 5. Savicevic and Nedved make up for whatever Scholes may have on Redondo in terms of creativity, Nedved simply shits on Beckham (because it's Pavel Nedved, not that Beckham was poor) and Donadoni does what I think Giggs should be doing for you, but isn't.

= Better midfield
+ Better defence
+ Better striker

I'll concede your keeper is bloody good though

 

[antohan]

I just posted that too!

Good thing this isn't WW.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I understand Keane in United, but somthing to remember on Desailly

Albert Ferrer
So powerful, like a rock. Marcel was one of the strongest players I have ever seen and the finished article as a defender. Had great positional awareness and you always felt secure with him next to you.

Jamie Carragher
I’ve played against him in the Premiership and he’s someone who could raise his game when he wanted to. He loved the big occasions. Whenever we used to play against him at Anfield he used to play so well that, to be honest, it was a case of men against boys.

Ruud Gulitt
A very strong defender and excellent in the air, which is something you need. He also had the kind of pace and power that would frighten attackers into making a mistake.

Michael Owen
With some defenders you think “he’s not strong”, “he’s not so quick” or whatever and try to play against that weakness. But Desailly was virtually impossible to play against. He was strong, quick, and good on the ball....I tried kicking him once and hurt my foot – which shows what sort of game I had against him!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Nedved

Yes. And that is one of my "con" points here. Nedved is as far from a luxury player as you can get with a man of his talent in that position. He will hound Beckham when the latter is on the ball - there is no question about it in my mind. And it makes a big difference. It will limit the supply, simply put. It's a significant tactical element here - and one which Edgar addresses explicitly in his write-up, for which I have to give him credit.

 

[Cutch]

No it's not. I have Nedved there runnig interference for Beckham. When you have the ball...with Nedved's workrate, I really think you overestimate the effect Beckham has in this match. Nedved is perfectly suitable to run interference on Beckham. On the counter, I still think Nedved will trump Neville with his pace and trickery with Maldini holding the fort behind him. Either way that wing is mine.

On the other wing, when you have the ball, Ronaldo will still have Panucci, Desailly and Costacurta to tackle. But when I gain possession, CR is not going to give you the tracking back Donadoni offers. Panucci is intelligent enough to know when to step out. Ronaldo is more of a threat when you have the ball, but as much as a liability when I have it.

You've 3 men assigned to Ronaldo? All the more space for Eric and Ruud, and Scholes runs from deep

 

[antohan]

Edgar can do what he likes with Nedved, i'm just explainin why Beckhams playing.

edit: possibly misunderstood your point, not clear

Oh, of course he should, he is an integral part of the team so much so that you are maybe relying too much on him when he is up against it with Nedved and Maldini on that flank.

 

[antohan]

You've 3 men assigned to Ronaldo? All the more space for Eric and Ruud, and Scholes runs from deep

Here we go again, the X-men running around like headless chicken discussions commence. This is awesome, looks like a script of all drafts past. First the 11 lines of X>Y, now the X takes Y, A takes B, and so on...

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fercutchon was a great word play. If nobody else will compliment it I will just have to do it myself.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'll try to break this down a bit:

When Cutch is attacking:
+ I'll have Nedved running interference on Beckham.
+ Desailly & Redondo (2 specialist DM's) protecting that already exemplary defence.

When I'm attacking:
+ Nedved is far pacier than Neville and with his ability to cut in would cause far more trouble than Beckham at the other end.
+ CR is not going to track Donadoni back.
+ A box-to-box Keane is the only cover he has. It's going to take some effort from Keane to cover both Donadoni and Savicevic.

 

[Cutch]

I didn't mean the pair, but the 5. Savicevic and Nedved make up for whatever Scholes may have on Redondo in terms of creativity, Nedved simply shits on Beckham (because it's Pavel Nedved, not that Beckham was poor) and Donadoni does what I think Giggs should be doing for you, but isn't.

= Better midfield
+ Better defence
+ Better striker

I'll concede your keeper is bloody good though

Come on now, don't be silly.

Nedved under Capello from 32-34yo was often injured and from memory had nothing close to Beckhams impact in 99 treble for example.