messi vs vidic and Ferdinand
obafemi Martins vs our whole defense.
Managers Draft - MJJ VS CRAPPY
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
obafemi Martins vs our whole defense.
Leave that Bayern team out of this
Except Cruyff has more of that in his locker rather than it being an anoomaly. He even scored off an header in a European final off Kiezer cross.
As great as Thuram, Zanetti may be, Cruyff is a whole different tier.
To be fair that 4-0 score was down to Meier having a 'mare.Leave that Bayern team out of this
His post match response was great too - The post-match response from Meier was one that would make the new German ‘madman’ Jens Lehmann look sane. In Meier’s hotel that night, he could not sleep after such a dismal display. How do you cure the understandable insomnia you’re suffering? For Sepp, it was to throw all of his clothes in the nearby Amsterdam canal.
Zambrotta is one of Italy's greatest pundits?
Going with the Dutch lot I think in this one.
Going with the Dutch lot I think in this one.
You couldn't be a doll and post this in the Joga match could you xoxThis is what the Ajax team could do to a opposition team that had likes of Beckenbauer, Brietner, Schwarzenbeck, Hoenesh, Roth etc
Park the bus they did, with a final score of 4-0. They also had Muller himself against the high line to no avail.
A good quote to describe the Ajax team from that time -
"To them, winning was effortless. To write about it, let alone describing and analysing their style, as proven by myself, is impossible. I guess that is what made them so hard to play against; you could not plan or fathom instructions that could purposely stop this Ajax team. The combination of eleven superbly cultivated footballers on one field, capable of being comfortable in every position throws opposition managers a complete curve-ball. The significance and purpose of planning for the match is now dead.
Such natural synergy between players and system is unlikely to be matched in our lifetime."
You aren't exactly going to compare your team's style with probably the greatest club team ever are you
. You guys both play high-lines and that's where the similarities end for me tbh. Just pulling your leg here mate.AC Milan tried Baggio and Savicevic and it didn't work one bit. There again they played in a different time.Too many players, that I hardly know.
Not a huge fan of Baggio and Del Piero in the same team, but eventually both would be devastating in this match.
You aren't exactly going to compare your team's style with probably the greatest club team ever are you
my team is more Ajax 95 in all honesty so no I won't try it haha.They had one massive massive advantage though. The offside rule back then which meant that if one player is in offside position, the entire team becomes offside. That is why that Michel's team could commit so many men forward and play a ridiculously high backline like the one you have shown in the picture because they knew if they catch one of Muller or Hoeness offside, the entire team becomes offside and they get the possession back.This is what the Ajax team could do to a opposition team that had likes of Beckenbauer, Brietner, Schwarzenbeck, Hoenesh, Roth etc
Park the bus they did, with a final score of 4-0. They also had Muller himself against the high line to no avail.
Not saying, they can't play a high-backline now. They can do it well like Pep's Barca did. But neither them nor Sacchi's Milan who used the 25 metres rule, would have found it as effective as they used it then.
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Fair enough. Too much has been made of the high line anyway. It is almost as if any team with a pacy forward will at least score against a team with a high line, which never actually happens in reality. MJJ's contention that you need to starve off possession of opposition to stop them from happening is also not correct. If you take 2009 CL final as an example, we actually had 49% possession in that game as per wiki, had Ronaldo with all his pace going against a make shift CB in Toure and yet we barely created any chances after the first 10 minutes.
Like anto said earlier, there is no clear attacking plan here from opposition. He is committed to defend with 7 players around his box, even if he is not, he will be practically forced to do that. First there is the question of his defense withstanding attacks of all kinds from my team. After that there is the Q of kickstarting a supposed counter from the back by a long ball to his 3 attackers. A high ball either over the top of a high defense or hoping for a knock down or hold up play by Vieri. There after it is the blind hope of a brilliant play by Baggio perhaps. If I was to use similar logic, I could go on about a wonder goal created or scored by Cruyff or a rocket by Haan. In any case, even if we grant the opposition one goal by that tactic (which can happen, though you will be surprised by number of clean sheets that Ajax team did keep in big matches), would my team score more than one goal? Yes. Even the defensive strategy of the opposition is mostly based on individual talent rather than a cohesive plan against total football. Every one will be just taking their zone, something like that will simply not work against a group of players known to change their positions, stretch play to create spaces and double up when ever possible.
Ohh, I am not arguing against the high line. Its a great tool to have and for all the cons, people seem to ignore the pros. I simply pointing it out that that level of line-line would be very risky now. But, those Ajax defenders were good players and they would adjust to it accprdingly!
I think people have been too affected by Bayern's mauling last year to assume that any high line would concede gazillion goals. Fact is Pep made a tactical blunder (which he admitted) by not playing someone like Martinez in front of his defense ( a role Haan plays here). Not saying Bayern would have won the, but the it would not have been a slaughter it was.Ohh, I am not arguing against the high line. Its a great tool to have and for all the cons, people seem to ignore the pros. I simply pointing it out that that level of line-line would be very risky now. But, those Ajax defenders were good players and they would adjust to it accprdingly!
Except that crappy is playing a high line without retaining possession i.e.e complete gungho football with weak defenders against players whose off the ball movement is great.
Lets look at that scenario. You are convientely forgetting deschamps and ferrara so it will be two attackers against four defenders. If krol takes the ball wide and crosses it in he will have to pick kiezer out of thuram and ferrara and I will back my centrebacks every time in that scenario. If cruyff cuts inside, he will have thuram and deschamps to stop him as ferrara will mark kiezer.
If neeskens attacks then conte will drop deep i.e. your attack has been stopped with six players now on the other end with suurbier and krol both forward you have left baggio and del pierio and vieri against your two centre backs. What happens if the attack fails with no cover on flanks and the ball goes to baggio?
It will be a disaster, particularly with the high line you are playing. Once baggio is free no one is catching him.
@VivaJanuzaj
Ewww 19 to 13 in a flash. This one's over since I am off to bed as well. Ta!
It's 21-18 though, if I counted that right.
It's closer than I expected. I like that both managers really stayed true to the managers they picked and while I disagree with a few of the comments in the tactical discussion here, both didn't really make a mistake. Crappy needs to play to his team's strength and MJJ chose a smart way to defend against total football. I really like that organised approach, keep the shape instead of mark individuals and I can see his team doing a good job here.
In the end, I just have to give so much credit to what is in my opinion the greatest club side of all time. There's nothing to question about the players' peaks here and that Ajax side showed that they can beat every style in football, they beat the great Spanish and British teams from that era, they overcame and eclipsed an excellent side in their home country, they outclassed the great Bayern side from that era and beat different Italian teams in two consecutive European Cup finals. I know that Michels left after the first European Cup win and that the Ajax side got even better once Neeskens reached his peak, but it's easy to imagine the Neeskens from Michels' Barca side in the team here, so I'm good. And crappy actually improved that team, Littbarski is a great fit and Migueli makes that backline look stronger. Neeskens will have to bail out Suurbier a few times, but that's the idea behind total football anyway, so it's no big deal. I can see a goal coming through del Piero exploiting that space, but I don't think it's enough. Sorry MJJ, really like what you did here, just bad luck to come up against this team.
What made me question my decision a bit was that crappy tried in my opinion too hard to describe this team as a crazy gung-ho quick transition team. I agree with him that they were more entertaining than Pep's Barca, showed a huge variety of attacking options and used physicality and wing play to a huge degree, which made it almost impossible to defend against them. But I don't buy the comment that they tried to score every time within 4 passes. They were quite happy to keep the ball, use possession to calm down the game and let the movement unfold itself. Or to use a modern example, they were still way closer to Guardiola's teams than to Klopp's Dortmund side. It was still poetry in motion, not heavy metal.
Anyway, good job by both of you.
In the end, I just have to give so much credit to what is in my opinion the greatest club side of all time. There's nothing to question about the players' peaks here and that Ajax side showed that they can beat every style in football, they beat the great Spanish and British teams from that era, they overcame and eclipsed an excellent side in their home country, they outclassed the great Bayern side from that era and beat different Italian teams in two consecutive European Cup finals. I know that Michels left after the first European Cup win and that the Ajax side got even better once Neeskens reached his peak, but it's easy to imagine the Neeskens from Michels' Barca side in the team here, so I'm good. And crappy actually improved that team, Littbarski is a great fit and Migueli makes that backline look stronger. Neeskens will have to bail out Suurbier a few times, but that's the idea behind total football anyway, so it's no big deal. I can see a goal coming through del Piero exploiting that space, but I don't think it's enough. Sorry MJJ, really like what you did here, just bad luck to come up against this team.
What made me question my decision a bit was that crappy tried in my opinion too hard to describe this team as a crazy gung-ho quick transition team. I agree with him that they were more entertaining than Pep's Barca, showed a huge variety of attacking options and used physicality and wing play to a huge degree, which made it almost impossible to defend against them. But I don't buy the comment that they tried to score every time within 4 passes. They were quite happy to keep the ball, use possession to calm down the game and let the movement unfold itself. Or to use a modern example, they were still way closer to Guardiola's teams than to Klopp's Dortmund side. It was still poetry in motion, not heavy metal.
Anyway, good job by both of you.
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I am very surprised by the results so far. Crappy has a brilliant team, one of those I think are unbeatable in the first round due to being allowed to pick completely unrestricted - and on top of that he lined up beautifully. He put them time to actually recreate an already proven team and United supporters should be more aware than ever that tactics are extremely hard to get perfectly. When you do get the tactics right, players can play well above their abilities and when you only get it 95% right, the worlds best players can look really average.
That Ajax side is one of the best teams ever, I agree with Balu that there is no need to try and take a stab at Guardiola/Possession football for no apparent reason. All the movement they did took time to achieve and Cruyff loved lingering on the ball. They are much closer to LVG&Guardiola's philosophy than someone like Mourinho/SAF.
That Ajax side is one of the best teams ever, I agree with Balu that there is no need to try and take a stab at Guardiola/Possession football for no apparent reason. All the movement they did took time to achieve and Cruyff loved lingering on the ball. They are much closer to LVG&Guardiola's philosophy than someone like Mourinho/SAF.
Am losing by one I think now
Thanks @Balu for explaining your thoughts so precisely.
How long is left btw?
Thanks @Balu for explaining your thoughts so precisely.
How long is left btw?
Still another 1hr and 40 minutes left. Sorry MJJ, gone for the Ajax team here but you have a great team nonetheless and got one of the toughest first round draw. You are still leading though, for what it's worth.Am losing by one I think now
Thanks @Balu for explaining your thoughts so precisely.
How long is left btw?
Team MJJ - 27
Paolo Di Canio
Edgar Allan Pillow
devilish
freshibal
Walrus
fishfingers15
Devil may care
Krits
sun_tzu
bosnian_red
Theon
Isotope
Penna
Crackers
Buchan
2 Man Midfield
van der star
DesiBD
LeftyBlaster
Speak
naturalized
Theafonis
Shamwow
Suli
chriswt
Team Crappy - 24
Stobzilla
Raees
Balu
VivaJanuzaj
Annahnomoss
Skizzo
harms
Joga Bonito
antohan
Pat_Mustard
steeeb
manikandan nair
Fergus' son
montpelier
MTR
Invictus
Ahh nice, lets let this thread die now
Who wins?
Team MJJ - 28
Paolo Di Canio
Edgar Allan Pillow
devilish
freshibal
Walrus
fishfingers15
Devil may care
Krits
sun_tzu
bosnian_red
Theon
Revan
Isotope
Penna
Crackers
Buchan
2 Man Midfield
van der star
DesiBD
LeftyBlaster
Speak
naturalized
Theafonis
Shamwow
Suli
chriswt
Team Crappy - 26
Stobzilla
Raees
Balu
VivaJanuzaj
Annahnomoss
Skizzo
harms
Joga Bonito
antohan
Pat_Mustard
steeeb
manikandan nair
Thisistheone
Fergus' son
montpelier
MTR
PedroMendez
Invictus
Paolo Di Canio
Edgar Allan Pillow
devilish
freshibal
Walrus
fishfingers15
Devil may care
Krits
sun_tzu
bosnian_red
Theon
Revan
Isotope
Penna
Crackers
Buchan
2 Man Midfield
van der star
DesiBD
LeftyBlaster
Speak
naturalized
Theafonis
Shamwow
Suli
chriswt
Team Crappy - 26
Stobzilla
Raees
Balu
VivaJanuzaj
Annahnomoss
Skizzo
harms
Joga Bonito
antohan
Pat_Mustard
steeeb
manikandan nair
Thisistheone
Fergus' son
montpelier
MTR
PedroMendez
Invictus
Looks like MJJ's won by a score of 28-26 if my count is right that is. Great job @crappycraperson and @MJJ . Tough luck and never expected the Ajax team to leave the first round but MJJ team was fantastic and he did a good job as well.
Its not, I got 27 votes plus 2 managerial votes which makes it 29.
Crappy got 19 votes plus 7 managerial votes(VJ isnt a manager) which makes it 26,
Good game @crappycraperson
Crappy got 19 votes plus 7 managerial votes(VJ isnt a manager) which makes it 26,
Good game @crappycraperson
Unlucky @crappycraperson . Out of interest, what was your next move? I'd have taken Gullit, with the option of him partnering Neeskens or replacing him with Neeskens moving to RB if needed. Haha, Neeskens at RB, that's what I'd call an embarassment of riches.
Would you take Gullit over Rijkaard for crappy's team if both were available? It's hypothetical now anyway but Rijkaard was terrific in defense in '88 next to Koeman. At least for now I'd probably prefer that over the Neeskens to rightback move (which really would be more the final piece in the puzzle for me).
I wasn't thinking about Neeeskens to RB as an immediate need, but one that Gullit would allow for if he came across a left-wing GOAT. It's indeed final piece otherwise.
Issue with Rijkaard here is where to play him. His natural role would be the one Haan already fulfills excellently. As CB, yeah, but is that a pressing need?
I guess it would boil down to draft-tactics. i.e. both could only be picked by the remaining Capello (EAP), which one does he need most? Baresi in defence releases Desailly for DM. On that basis I would have gone Gullit, then Rijkaard. It still leaves EAP with what should be his priority picks next anyway (Baresi + Marco).
An interesting dilemma would be whether to mess with Cruyff to shoehorn van Basten somehow. Me thinks not.
I think at one point you have to do it and I guess van Basten is worth to let go of the total football theme.
Play Cruyff where Keizer is? Marco looks a bit lonely there, you need to throw in a bit of Gullit... It can all get quite messy tbh.
Would be interesting to see what crappy's planned end-game was.
If we go by star/peak factors it would need to involve: Krol, Rijkaard, Vasovic, Haan, Neeskens, van Hanegem, Gullit, van Basten, Cruyff, Keizer and Littbarski. That's 11 already so I suppose one would have to play goalkeeper
Litti doesn't fit the theme but was immense for Koln in that period, I used to watch them just to watch Littbarski, lovely little player that he was.I guess you'd play Cruyff in midfield, Gullit right wing, Neeskens rightback and Littbarski gets benched. That's in my opinion the only way to include all big names.Play Cruyff where Keizer is? Marco looks a bit lonely there, you need to throw in a bit of Gullit... It can all get quite messy tbh.
Would be interesting to see what crappy's planned end-game was.
If we go by star/peak factors it would need to involve: Krol, Rijkaard, Vasovic, Haan, Neeskens, van Hanegem, Gullit, van Basten, Cruyff, Keizer and Littbarski. That's 11 already so I suppose one would have to play goalkeeper
Nah, doesn't work really... would love to see them with the ball though
Seeing both Cruyff and Neeskens completely out of position in what is basically an all time Dutch XI really feels very very wrong.Nah, doesn't work really... would love to see them with the ball though
Yeah, that's probably better. Still lacks arrows, but we would need mouses with several buttons then.
I know, that's my fecking problem with it!
Knew was always gonna lose in first round with Michels
Anyway I am glad that I did not win by manager's votes since I don't believe in relegating scan voters to second class citizens.
@Annahnomoss @Balu - I had to distance my self for tiki taka as much as possible since it is toxic for scan voters now days. As it I got killed by them, I probably exaggerated it but the crux of the argument is the same, there are some key differences between total football and how even Barca played (let alone Spain). Bayern under Pep still mix it up but Barca at times refused to adopt any other attacking tactic that their usual to the detriment of losing key matches.
Anyway I am glad that I did not win by manager's votes since I don't believe in relegating scan voters to second class citizens.
@Annahnomoss @Balu - I had to distance my self for tiki taka as much as possible since it is toxic for scan voters now days. As it I got killed by them, I probably exaggerated it but the crux of the argument is the same, there are some key differences between total football and how even Barca played (let alone Spain). Bayern under Pep still mix it up but Barca at times refused to adopt any other attacking tactic that their usual to the detriment of losing key matches.
Like I said in the other thread - sorry for not being able to vote, gents!
A bit surprised by the result here - but that's water under the bridge. Onwards!
A bit surprised by the result here - but that's water under the bridge. Onwards!