Marcelo Bielsa on ManUtd style of play - "The more simple the football is, the better it is.

[Icemav]

I just want Saf style football. We were mostly exciting to watch. It wasn't just because we won things, it's because we won in style. It's so rare I ever enjoy games anymore. When was the last time we saw goals like RVP's when he was here?

What? Some of the goals we have scored in this season have been incredible. Our overall standard of play has been patchy at times however we have also fairly consistently absolutely ripped opponents apart with incisive attacking play. We are an exciting yet inconsistent team. Our top level though terrifies.

If you dont enjoy our goals anymore I think it is a matter of rose tinted specs and other reasons, not the quality of the goals.

 

[Jeppers7]

Am I the only one who sees this as a sly dig?

I did also.

 

[Borys]

What? Some of the goals we have scored in this season have been incredible. Our overall standard of play has been patchy at times however we have also fairly consistently absolutely ripped opponents apart with incisive attacking play. We are an exciting yet inconsistent team. Our top level though terrifies.

If you dont enjoy our goals anymore I think it is a matter of rose tinted specs and other reasons, not the quality of the goals.

I agree. I think football quality is decent this season. Definitely not worse than under Fergie, if you exclude the times we had much better players (prime Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, van Persie).

 

[RedBanker]

Nice cheeky dig by Bielsa, but coming from a man who has won not a single major trophy in the last 15 years, what he says has zero value.

 

[thepolice123]

The very dominant Barcelona of 09-11 squeaked through after a scandalous referee performance vs Chelsea in 09, was dominated by United until a moment of brilliance from Eto’o completely against the run of play allowed them to start playing keep ball, until Rio Ferdinand let Messi of all people beat him to a header and ended the game. The next year they got spanked by Inter and ended up eliminated, in 10/11 they lost 1-2 at the Emirates before winning 3-1 at home due to another ludicrous referee decision (RvP sent off for celebrating his goal), won 1-0 at the Bernabeu in the first leg of the semi due to a Messi solo wonder goal before drawing 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg.

This is a team widely considered as one of, if not the best CL team of all time. Almost as if European ties are often cagey afffairs decided by moments of brilliance or controversy, and nigh on impossible to consistently dominate opponents who qualify for knockout fixtures.

TBF they did dominate Arsenal and Real Madrid.

Arsenal were incredibly lucky to get a win in the first leg. They got spanked hard in both legs. Barca were very wasteful.

Barca actually won 2-0 at the Bernabeu for the first leg. The second leg was a pretty drab affair. Once they led through Pedro they took their foot off the pedal. If I recall correctly they were in total control for both ties. Alot of huffing and puffing from Real but nothing substantial.

 

[crossy1686]

Nice cheeky dig by Bielsa, but coming from a man who has won not a single major trophy in the last 15 years, what he says has zero value.

I don't think it was a dig. Sir Bobby Robson was an advocate of simple football, Jermaine Jenas used to say he would bollock them most half times about over complicating things instead of keeping it simple.

Some managers like Pep, Klopp and Arteta, like to micro manage. Others like to trust the players to know what to do in certain positions

 

[Lentwood]

Vince Lombardi dominated the NFL for years with an unfashionable team by tearing up the encyclopaedia-sized volumes of playbooks, immediately getting ride of their “best player” because Lombardi didn’t see him as a team player and by practicing a few variations on one play (the Packer Sweep) over and over and over again.

Likewise, SAF played very simple counter-punching football. I never once heard him really talk about tactics or patters of play it was all about attitude, desire, mental strength, teamwork etc...

 

[Buster15]

I don't think it was a dig. Sir Bobby Robson was an advocate of simple football, Jermaine Jenas used to say he would bollock them most half times about over complicating things instead of keeping it simple.

Some managers like Pep, Klopp and Arteta, like to micro manage. Others like to trust the players to know what to do in certain positions

All well and good, as long as those players repay that trust.

 

[LoneStar]

If we have a manager that relies purely on players ability - all we need is 11 amazing players on the pitch at the time.

I never really saw what was wrong with that.

You can argue this is what Real Madrid did, try to get the best players. Ended up with 3 consecutive CLs.

Of course tactics will impact how the teams perform, but its hard to get an inferior team to consistently beat a top team (which is balanced).

 

[Godfather]

Nice little dig before our game. Hope we smash them.

 

[crossy1686]

Nice little dig before our game. Hope we smash them.

I think it's more a case of "It's not the blows to the head that soften the fighter, it's the pat's on the back".

 

[Marwood]

We've scored the second most amount of goals in the league and if we repeat the result in the reverse fixture we would be go level with City, we finished top scorers in our CL group despite finishing 3rd, we've broken records for goals scored in consecutive games in the league, we're on our longest ever unbeaten run away from home and teams like City are now playing for draws against us because they're afraid to attack. To say all we have is defensive stability is doing an incredible disservice to the players and coaches.

Good post.

I'd also add that teams like City aren't just changing their approach against us, they're changing and still struggling.

We''re really difficult to play against.

 

[OrcaFat]

You can argue this is what Real Madrid did, try to get the best players. Ended up with 3 consecutive CLs.

Of course tactics will impact how the teams perform, but its hard to get an inferior team to consistently beat a top team (which is balanced).

All teams rely purely on their players.

The teams with the best players in the right positions - as you say balanced - will usually win.

The SAF approach was mostly about that. His focus was in acquiring or, by revamping the academy, bringing through the best players possible for every position. Our leaner periods were usually when we had some relative weaknesses in the squad, not because of patterns of play.

So 22 players with good attitude, mental strength and ability in their position is what it takes. Then simple instructions are the best, you are not asking players to do things they are not good at. Teamwork, fighting spirit, confidence and, yes, individual ability, are what you need.

 

[JPRouve]

Pep tactics are very simple and easy to read, I dont really see why people put him in that category, in fact his models are the likes of Bielsa and Cruyff. Mourinho and Simeone are complicated particularly when it comes to defensive assignments

 

[duffer]

If you have to say "this is praise" as part of your praise, you are not doing it right.

"Your cake tastes like sawdust but I like sawdust. This is praise".

Bielsa is a weirdo.

 

[Dve]

SAF was by no means a tactical genius. Our style of play during his reign was largely to cross the ball into the box as often as possible. Even after Beckham left we would still hook it in on a regular basis. Then we always had a few world class attackers who could make something out of the blue by mixing it up a bit.

You´d still have to create space for the wingers to be able to deliver those crossers, so the movements from the central players are essential to make that work. Simple football is always a lot more complex that the average fans will discover watching it.

 

[JPRouve]

If you have to say "this is praise" as part of your praise, you are not doing it right.

"Your cake tastes like sawdust but I like sawdust. This is praise".

Bielsa is a weirdo.

And fire is hot.

 

[justsomebloke]

No he also won 2 trophies so still got a better record than Ole at the moment (and I never wanted Mourinho so not a fanboy). Ole needs to win a major trophy next season to say his tactics are working.

So in other words, Bielsa is making a point, and you're just determined to think that's all too complicated to deal with or think about, so you're just going to wait for those trophies?

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Entirely due to DDG’s brilliance. He was the sole difference between us finishing seventh and us finishing second. The underlying metrics support that and that’s why he was in the FIFPRO world 11 I believe, even though we didn’t win anything.

I agree that we need to win the Europa league this season to add the gloss. A nice Chelsea like demolition of Arsenal in the EL final will be very welcome, assuming we get past Roma.

Delete DDG and insert Bruno and the same logic could apply.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

All teams rely purely on their players.

The teams with the best players in the right positions - as you say balanced - will usually win.

The SAF approach was mostly about that. His focus was in acquiring or, by revamping the academy, bringing through the best players possible for every position. Our leaner periods were usually when we had some relative weaknesses in the squad, not because of patterns of play.

So 22 players with good attitude, mental strength and ability in their position is what it takes. Then simple instructions are the best, you are not asking players to do things they are not good at. Teamwork, fighting spirit, confidence and, yes, individual ability, are what you need.

Also how Zidane won 3 champions league. I'd add excellent man management is necessary too

 

[Withnail]

Remind me a game against Barca, RM, BM in last 20 years that we completely dominated? I am talking total and controlled domination, not simply squeaking out a win. Even in 08 against Barcelona SF we had a bus parked in both legs, what are you talking about?

Imagine expecting total domination in Europe system against elite sides.

 

[wolvored]

3rd last season and 2nd this season. That's better than anything Mou has done in the past 5 seasons. It's pretty easy to argue Ole is a better manager than Mou at this moment.

Im not saying anything positive about Mourinho, and as i said I didnt want him in the first place, but saying Ole is doing better than Mourinho and yet hasnt won anything, where Mourinho won 2 trophies and finished 2nd, is why Im reserving my judgement.

 

[Mickeza]

The biggest change in football media over the last few years is the use of “counter attack” as a way to criticise. It used to be that set-piece goals were derided as if they didn’t count but now it’s goals scored on the counter attack - like they mean less. It’s very odd.

 

[wolvored]

So in other words, Bielsa is making a point, and you're just determined to think that's all too complicated to deal with or think about, so you're just going to wait for those trophies?

Im looking at the facts. I want to see trophies to back up the argument that we are on the cusp of something big happening here. We have had false dawns before. If Ole finishes 2nd, then next season finishes 2nd/3rd/4th with no trophies, is that success that we have finished top 4 for 3 seasons in a row or not? Depends how you look at it. A lot of folks on here used to laugh at Arsenal for just doing that.

 

[Shiva87]

Also how Zidane won 3 champions league. I'd add excellent man management is necessary too

Don't think that's correct. Bruno has been okay over the last couple of months and his performance levels have massively dropped.

Rashford, Cavani, Pogba and Greenwood habe all stepped up at different points this season to get us to our current position. It's not down to Bruno alone.

There is light and day between how much DDG did that season and what any other player can/ should do in one season.

The biggest change in football media over the last few years is the use of “counter attack” as a way to criticise. It used to be that set-piece goals were derided as if they didn’t count but now it’s goals scored on the counter attack - like they mean less. It’s very odd.

Totally agree with this. It's weird that it started being a problem only when Ole's team got damn good at it. Leicester winning the league with the same counter attack style was hailed by the same media.

What makes it worse is that pundits confuse transition phases with counter attacks. Anything now which involves direct quick running or interplay is termed a counter attack. One of these games United passed the ball to their CBs drew the opponent out, and then attacked them at pace with rashford on the left. Owen Hargreaves called it a counter attack in the half time analysis because their "clip" only started with the ball being passed to Marcus.

 

[Shiva87]

Im looking at the facts. I want to see trophies to back up the argument that we are on the cusp of something big happening here. We have had false dawns before. If Ole finishes 2nd, then next season finishes 2nd/3rd/4th with no trophies, is that success that we have finished top 4 for 3 seasons in a row or not? Depends how you look at it. A lot of folks on here used to laugh at Arsenal for just doing that.

Success has to be measured with what happens this summer. If we have another absolute piss take of a summer (like last season) then I would say that another top 4 finish is a successful season from the manager. The reality is that this squad has holes that need filling before we can win titles, and that has to happen through transfers of the right age and quality. Without a CB/CDM and a RW, I don't think we will be winning the league next season - especially if Pogba leaves.

Disappoints me to say this, but it's just the reality of our situation. I hope Ole is able to get some dosh out of the Glazers (now that ESL has failed) to get some signings over the line.

On the contrary, if the club back him with top quality signings, and we don't win - then it would be a failure of a season. It's the natural progression of this squad (with key additions) to win the title next. If it does not, then we need someone new to come in and take over.

 

[Hammondo]

Pep tactics are very simple and easy to read, I dont really see why people put him in that category, in fact his models are the likes of Bielsa and Cruyff. Mourinho and Simeone are complicated particularly when it comes to defensive assignments

Yea I agree with this. Systems are not tactics, they exist to simplify things.

 

[Longshanks]

Realistically to beat us you have to sit deep hope we dont breakthrough and hope to catch us on the break or hope we make a mistake to let you in.

Are two main weaknesses are playing out from the back which is largely due to a lack of technical ability/discipline in the CM positions and breaking down park the bus type defences with is due to our forward line not being good enough/ being horribly out of form most of the season.

When we attack we see lots of repeated patterns, overlapping/underlapping fullbacks one touch triangles around the box, wideforward/fullbacks working there way to the by line for the pull back to name but a few.

We are more direct and take more risks with our passing than say city who will pass the ball around midfield for the sake of it LVG style hoping to pull teams out of shape where as we tend to be more direct and take risks with passes or dribbles and as a result lose the ball more often.

 

[justsomebloke]

Im looking at the facts. I want to see trophies to back up the argument that we are on the cusp of something big happening here. We have had false dawns before. If Ole finishes 2nd, then next season finishes 2nd/3rd/4th with no trophies, is that success that we have finished top 4 for 3 seasons in a row or not? Depends how you look at it. A lot of folks on here used to laugh at Arsenal for just doing that.

No, you're not looking at the facts. You're looking exclusively at one fact. And sorry for singling you out, you're not the only one doing it on this tread.

Bielsa is making a point about our style of play. A rather interesting one, although it is not altogether straightforward to work out exactly what it is. What he appears to be saying is that our style of play is simple, and easy to figure out for the opposition. But, he considers this not be a shortcoming, but rather a compliment: Something that is effective, and difficult to achieve.

If we accept that Bielsa at least is qualified enough to have a valid if debatable opinion on this, then that does at the very least mean that nobody really has any basis for arguing that we're tactically underdeveloped, or that the coaching staff simply lack the competence to develop one, as plenty of people around here does.

 

[justsomebloke]

As per expectations of winning the title. Remember Liverpool in 2018/19? They got 97 points, and finished second. If any team had gotten that number of points in 2015/16, they would have won the league by a 16-point margin.

I don't think "winning the title" is a reasonable expectation, for any team, in any season. If we're talking expectations, then that's about being good enough to be a realistic contender for the title, someone who's in that fight until at least very near the end of the season. Whether you end up with it or not can be down to incredibly marginal factors. As we know all too well from relatively recent experience. Also, it ignores that whether that expectation is achieved or not is decided to a very large extent by something you can't control, ie how good other teams are.

When we're talking about re-establishing the club as a title contender, what that means to me is building a team that you can expect to clock in at around 90+ points, year after year. Sometimes that'll get you the title, sometimes it won't. The title should then always be the aim, but there's a different between an aim and an expectation.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Wow, Bielsa pulling no punches there.

 

[justsomebloke]

City's play is great?

No it's not, it's boring.

I think you're both right. City is great, but not all that entertaining, at least not this season. All about control, punctuated by maybe 2-4 good scoring chances in the course of the game.

 

[Adisa]

What is a complicated style of play?

People are using his words to justify their predetermined positions without answering that basic question.
There is nothing complicated about Pep or Klopp's style of play, compared to others for example.

 

[Icemav]

Barca ran rings around us in both UCL finals and also the SF in 2008. You guys should take off your red tinted glasses.

Both finals were brutal. Felt Fergie got his team selections a bit wrong twice.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

Both finals were brutal. Felt Fergie got his team selections a bit wrong twice.

To be fair to ferguson, it wouldn't have mattered what team he fielded. Those Barca sides were head and shoulders above anything we ever faced before.

 

[Zen86]

Bielsa truly delivering a masterclass in high brow, sophisticated football today.

 

[wolvored]

It was too simple. They forgot to score.

 

[Brophs]

Enough shit to cover two sticks

 

[OrcaFat]

Also how Zidane won 3 champions league. I'd add excellent man management is necessary too

Yes, I agree. When I said purely players, I meant they are the ones who actually play the match. It’s true they have to be man-managed. And also coaching is necessary, of course, just nothing complicated.

 

[Foxbatt]

Ok

To be fair to ferguson, it wouldn't have mattered what team he fielded. Those Barca sides were head and shoulders above anything we ever faced before.

I would say the first one was winnable and Fergie got his tactics wrong.