Marco Rose | Gladbach manager

RUCK4444

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What’s he done at Gladbach to be many posters number one choice?

I’m asking genuinely as I’ve seen very little of him and I would prefer we didn’t just jump for Poch without extensively looking at all other options first.

I notice they are fifth in the Bundesliga behind the likes of Leipzig who have another fan favourite manager.
 

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That sounds promising, pretty much exactly what we need and, like I've said in another thread, perhaps he's one of a few managers right now that would have our whole fanbase behind him from the start. Something that no other manager has had since Fergie, due past negative periods. Maybe it's time we took a chance on an up and coming manager, arriving with a bit of a positivity around them.

The last part I agree with too, I feel like we've got a good squad now and there should be bigger expectations for this season, and the next few, towards becoming a competitive team once again. But whilst we have a manager that doesn't seem to coach his ideas or visibly implement any sort of style consistently, then we can't know which players are performing or just not being utilised correctly.

That's the grey area with Ole. People can blame the players but when we've spent so much on players that were doing well prior to coming, then you have to look at the manager. Especially when he's never really proven himself to be a top level manager or even potentially a top level manager. He was a middle of the road manager that you'd have never heard of had he not been such a big player for us.
Well, theoretically, as a coach, he works with what he has first and foremost, coaching the coach-able and eventually doing away with the uncoach-able amongst them; as LVG showed, even the likes of Smalling can play possession football if trained by a competent enough coach, so I am not so sure how many of our squad are the absolute write-off they're thought of as. I'm not saying we have a team of world beaters nor players who can't be improved upon, but in the interim, there's loads that could be done with the level of talent we have at our disposal if the right coaches got their hands on them.

What we mostly see is what these players look like left to their own devices with no firm ideas or constructs in place for them to follow - to know what they are doing with and without the ball at nearly all times.

People seem to think more gusto would solve the problems of players simply being clueless of what is the best thing for them to be doing as individuals when the pressure is on and their other - individual - team-mates are starting to get flustered because their ideas don't match with their team-mate. If you're responsible for an improvised attack breaking down, and you aren't the most confident individual, you're going to melt that bit more the next time the situation arises where you've got to again make something up on the hop with absolutely no construct to follow.

You can get away with that with genial players, but for most teams, even with high levels of talent, you only want a couple of players winging it with everyone else having very simple remits to follow, that way, everyone can play 'blind' because they know who should be where at any given time, and procedurally, things become automated and very easy indeed. Sure you might lose games, and sure, sometimes it mightn't work out, but you can immediately point the finger at who, or what, has gone wrong when everyone has an idea of the job they're supposed to be doing on the pitch.

Sometimes players can even follow the managers instructions to the wire, and then, the finger is pointed solely at the coach (LVG), but in all instances, things are clear and defined, and so much easier than the ritual running through treacle we have done for nigh on 8 years now.

Rose's teams instantly fill you with wonder and curiosity as to what they/he will come up with next. Much like how, when you watch a Bielsa side in full flow, you're wowed by how such - generally - inferior players can be overwhelming individuals and sides they've no business looking at, on paper.

I do think people would get behind anyone who came to our club and displayed the nous to get us cohesive and flowing in attack and defense. Rose, along with a few others, puts the onus on what we have, rather than what we have to wait for in the the next transfer window, or the next, or the next into perpetuity. If you want to see 'miracles' like O'Shea and Giggs working wonders in central midfield, much to the bemusement of simply everyone, it's coaches like Rose who are most likely to get that tune out of anyone that's here and have players looking better than they are 'supposed' to or have been declared to be.

Think it'd be an absolute breath of fresh air for players and fans alike.
 
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arthurka

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Well, theoretically, as a coach, he works with what he has first and foremost, coaching the coach-able and eventually doing away with the uncoach-able amongst them; as LVG showed, even the likes of Smalling can play possession football if trained by a competent enough coach, so I am not so sure how many of our squad are the absolute write-off they're thought of as. I'm not saying we have a team of world beaters nor players who can't be improved upon, but in the interim, there's loads that could be done with the level of talent we have at our disposal if the right coaches got their hands on them.

What we mostly see is what these players look like left to their own devices with no firm ideas or constructs in place for them to follow - to know what they are doing with and without the ball at nearly all times.

People seem to think more gusto would solve the problems of players simply being clueless of what is the best thing for them to be doing as individuals when the pressure is on and their other - individual - team-mates are starting to get flustered because their ideas don't match with their team-mate. If you're responsible for an improvised attack breaking down, and you aren't the most confident individual, you're going to melt that bit more the next time the situation arises where you've got to again make something up on the hop with absolutely no construct to follow.

You can get away with that with genial players, but for most teams, even with high levels of talent, you only want a couple of players winging it with everyone else having very simple remits to follow, that way, everyone can play 'blind' because they know who should be where at any given time, and procedurally, things become automated and very easy indeed. Sure you might lose games, and sure, sometimes it mightn't work out, but you can immediately point the finger at who, or what, has gone wrong when everyone has an idea of the job they're supposed to be doing on the pitch.

Sometimes players can even follow the managers instructions to the wire, and then, the finger is pointed solely at the coach (LVG), but in all instances, things are clear and defined, and so much easier than the ritual running through treacle we have done for nigh on 8 years now.

Rose's teams instantly fill you with wonder and curiosity as to what they/he will come up with next. Much like how, when you watch a Bielsa side in full flow, you're wowed by how such - generally - inferior players can be overwhelming individuals and sides they've no business looking at, on paper.

I do think people would get behind anyone who came to our club and displayed the nous to get us cohesive and flowing in attack and defense. Rose, along with a few others, puts the onus on what we have, rather than what we have to wait for in the the next transfer window, or the next, or the next into perpetuity. If you want to see 'miracles' like O'Shea and Giggs working wonders in central midfield, much to the bemusement of simply everyone, it's coaches like Rose who are most likely to get that tune out of anyone that's here and have players looking better than they are 'supposed' to or have been declared to be.

Think it'd be an absolute breath of fresh air for players and fans alike.
This post is absolutely spot on.
Rose is a coach that brings his ideas in right from the start and you are quick to see the difference.

This club is terribly passive and to such a degree that things seem to pass us by all the time I would love to see us be progressive for once and see where that would lead us.
For me there isn´t a better suited manager for the club out there I am positive that Rose would get us playing good football in a short space of time.

But of course Poch will be in next because he is tried and tested but I can tell you this much that the next team to get Rose will become a great footballing side.
 

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And this is what good coaching brings. It makes things so much easier for the players. Too many times Rashford Pogba Martial all try to dribble 2-4 players and that's difficult.
Yes. Too often our hero play is assessed by its end product and the whys and wherefores of why it came about in the first place are overlooked. Pogba is seen as a ball hog because he won't release the ball until an actual option opens up for him to make the progressive pass forward he's looking to execute, often in the interim, he gets swarmed and then dispossessed with nobody making openings for him to release to.

Jose did not coach Zlatan - Zlatan, just by being a very good forward, knew what positions to take up and how to make himself available, in turn, Pogba was in his element hitting early balls into an 'open' Zlatan constantly. Simple action and reaction creates the chain, but that level of intuitiveness comes with world class, and just below, players which we're not at on an individual level, so our players need that coaching to make movements that create the openings on a constant basis so that they don't have to keep doing the hero stuff or turning in on themselves and watching plays dissolve as quickly as they started up.

As soon as one players is on the ball, others should be starting a chain that creates multiples options and angles for him. It then just becomes a case of, the better the talent, the more ambitious the option he can try to take on - if he's given the remit to be that expansive - but even in playing it short and simple, the better the technique, the faster and more bedazzling even those basic chains look.
 

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What was Rose's mistake? Can you elaborate and explain in detail of possible..
Going in with the diamond formation, allowing Munich to press so easily and to bypass the Gladbach press due to an overload in midfield.
It also left space on the wings for Bayern to exploit, which let's be honest is a basic error against Munich.
Quite obvious he made a mistake as he changed things early in the second half when it was obvious things weren't improving.
 

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What we mostly see is what these players look like left to their own devices with no firm ideas or constructs in place for them to follow - to know what they are doing with and without the ball at nearly all times.

People seem to think more gusto would solve the problems of players simply being clueless of what is the best thing for them to be doing as individuals when the pressure is on and their other - individual - team-mates are starting to get flustered because their ideas don't match with their team-mate. If you're responsible for an improvised attack breaking down, and you aren't the most confident individual, you're going to melt that bit more the next time the situation arises where you've got to again make something up on the hop with absolutely no construct to follow.

You can get away with that with genial players, but for most teams, even with high levels of talent, you only want a couple of players winging it with everyone else having very simple remits to follow, that way, everyone can play 'blind' because they know who should be where at any given time, and procedurally, things become automated and very easy indeed..
I'm just going to point out that this passage is what happens in music, as well. Particularly in Jazz improv. (Blues as well, but to a much less musically-involved extent)

Something something SAF was a rock-God, and Klopp/Pep hipster Jazz band-leaders (with the talent to back up their meticulous intellectual deconstructions).

Point is, I agree; some of our 'superstars' need structure. There's a line between that and smothering creativity, but let's cross that bridge when we approach reaching the cusp of being on that horizon.
 

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don't follow german football so I'll be honest, I nothing about this fella. Is he an attacking modern style manager, high press, attacking full backs, play out from the back type. I just looked at Bundesliga from last season, I see points wise he was close to RBL and Dortmund, but quite a bit off in goals scored. Is that just a reflection of other teams resources in thay have more money to spend and Rose's success is perhaps more admirable as he's working with what he's got. For all the plaudits RBL have gotten from last season, Monchengladach were only a point behind.Be interesting to see how they fare this season.
 

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Going in with the diamond formation, allowing Munich to press so easily and to bypass the Gladbach press due to an overload in midfield.
It also left space on the wings for Bayern to exploit, which let's be honest is a basic error against Munich.
Quite obvious he made a mistake as he changed things early in the second half when it was obvious things weren't improving.
He played a narrow 4-4-2 diamond formation but the problem wasn't the formation but rather Hoffman and Benes doing a poor job in containing Kimmich and Davies out wide. The plan was to close the space centrally and make Bayern go on the wings but unfortunately for Rose, his two #8s couldn't contain the Bayern fullbacks (Kimmich&Davies) who controlled their zones against Hoffman and Benes which pulled Zakaria out of position and opened the game up for Bayern.

Bayern have a much better team so it's not a surprise that their players will control the zones and the likes of Davies and Kimmich will win their individual battles against Benes and Hoffman.
 

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He played a narrow 4-4-2 diamond formation but the problem wasn't the formation but rather Hoffman and Benes doing a poor job in containing Kimmich and Davies out wide. The plan was to close the space centrally and make Bayern go on the wings but unfortunately for Rose, his two #8s couldn't contain the Bayern fullbacks (Kimmich&Davies) who controlled their zones against Hoffman and Benes which pulled Zakaria out of position and opened the game up for Bayern.

Bayern have a much better team so it's not a surprise that their players will control the zones and the likes of Davies and Kimmich will win their individual battles against Benes and Hoffman.
Lets agree to disagree, but to me it's obvious he made a mistake by being narrow, Bayern are consistently dangerous using pace on the wings, have been for years, so a very strange decision to go for a different formation than usual.

And once again, I Reiterate my point that just because they have a 'better' team on paper, doesn't mean they are dead certs to win, and they didn't. Gladbach are hardly cannon fodder.
 

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Whilst I’m all for this appointment, I have to say we will desperately need full backs who can provide width in the attacking phase. (I’ve only seen one game of Telles, too early to tell).
 

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What’s he done at Gladbach to be many posters number one choice?

I’m asking genuinely as I’ve seen very little of him and I would prefer we didn’t just jump for Poch without extensively looking at all other options first.

I notice they are fifth in the Bundesliga behind the likes of Leipzig who have another fan favourite manager.
For a little bit of context, they’ve also been missing their best, and arguably most important player, in Zakaria for the season so far.
 

Daniel_de_Foe

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From a proud member of the Bundesliga Protection Alliance (sorry for the horrible English, haven’t wrote for 5 years)

BPL seems a very good soil for German managers. Hasenhüttl shows you can go very far with a team that is basically a top ten Bundesliga team from the tactical standpoint. Smart midfield Press to defend and from time to time a bid of Attack Press to harass the opponent. Rose is even more flexible than Hasenhüttel, his teams are better in possession.

But the Problem with all these non-English managers is they are essentially coaches, who used to work with a DOF at their club. Even if they get the manager part right, they are the strongest when coaching the fist team, like new formations or new tactical approaches. By bringing these coaches into a management position you’re robbing them of their greatest strengths.

Another big problem is: Pressing is extremely coaching-intensive. It almost doesn’t matter who your players are, as long as they are on an average level and they are doing exactly what you want. Klopp used a German third tier player in midfield (Leo Kirch) when they were defeating Real Madrid 2:0 in the CL Quarter Finals 2014 at home (after losing 0:3 in Madrid). But a team full of stars with big egos won’t transform into a very good pressing team, PSG is the best example. I am very skeptical if united can be such a team.
 
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do.ob

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For a little bit of context, they’ve also been missing their best, and arguably most important player, in Zakaria for the season so far.
I think that is a bit of a stretch. Zakaria might be their most valuable player in Euros, but they have been coping rather well with his injury (which also goes to Rose's credit of course). I don't think a return of his will elevate them that much. Plea and Thuram however offer that kind of individual attacking quality that they can't compensate with a well executed system.

A brief way of saying why he's highly rated is probably that he instantly imprinted his style upon his team, finishing the season with a 10 point gain on his predecessor, competing with the top teams and in his second season he has them standing their ground in a group of death.

As far as Bundesliga goes I think most people rate Nagelsmann more highly though. Rose has been doing really well and seems to have a good chance of establishing himself as a top coach, but Nagelsmann is a prodigy who made miracles happen at Hoffenheim and basically shattered all age records.
 
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paraguayo

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Is that Plea guy very good or is it just a patch of form? How much would he cost?
 

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From a proud member of the Bundesliga Protection Alliance (sorry for the horrible English, haven’t wrote for 5 years)

BPL seems a very good soil for German managers. Hasenhüttl shows you can go very far with a team that is basically a top ten Bundesliga team from the tactical standpoint. Smart midfield Press to defend and from time to time a bid of Attack Press to harass the opponent. Rose is even more flexible than Hasenhüttel, his teams are better in possession.

But the Problem with all these non-English managers is they are essentially coaches, who used to work with a DOF at their club. Even if they get the manager part right, they are the strongest when coaching the fist team, like new formations or new tactical approaches. By bringing these coaches into a management position you’re robbing them of their greatest strengths.

Another big problem is: Pressing is extremely coaching-intensive. It almost doesn’t matter who your players are, as long as they are on an average level and they are doing exactly what you want. Klopp used a German third tier player in midfield (Leo Kirch) when they were defeating Real Madrid 2:0 in the CL Quarter Finals 2014 at home (after losing 0:3 in Madrid). But a team full of stars with big egos won’t transform into a very good pressing team, PSG is the best example. I am very skeptical if united can be such a team.
Welcome to the discussion.
Interesting points, and backs up my claims earlier in the thread that a team is greater than the sum of its parts if working together and working hard.

Do you get think thought that these upcoming managers need to adapt a plan B? Not many of them seem to be able to adapt their teams to a plan B if things aren't working...
 

do.ob

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Is that Plea guy very good or is it just a patch of form? How much would he cost?
He had a very good season for Favre in Nice before Gladbach bought him for significant money and he's been quality for them, too.
But he's not that young anymore and he's used to being the centerpiece of Gladbach's attack, so he'd probably be too big a risk if United bought him.
 

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Welcome to the discussion.
Interesting points, and backs up my claims earlier in the thread that a team is greater than the sum of its parts if working together and working hard.

Do you get think thought that these upcoming managers need to adapt a plan B? Not many of them seem to be able to adapt their teams to a plan B if things aren't working...
If you think Rose doesn't adapt to certain opposition then I'm gonna ask what you've been watching.

Just recently he adapted to playing against Madrid and our earlier discussion about the Bayern game was him adapting his strategy for a very strong Bayern team.
 
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I think that is a bit of a stretch. Zakaria might be their most valuable player in Euros, but they have been coping rather well with his injury (which also goes to Rose's credit of course). I don't think a return of his will elevate them that much. Plea and Thuram however offer that kind of individual attacking quality that they can't compensate with a well executed system.

A brief way of saying why he's highly rated is probably that he instantly imprinted his style upon his team, finishing the season with a 10 point gain on his predecessor, competing with the top teams and in his second season he has them standing their ground in a group of death.

As far as Bundesliga goes I think most people rate Nagelsmann more highly though. Rose has been doing really well and seems to have a good chance of establishing himself as a top coach, but Nagelsmann is a prodigy who made miracles happen at Hoffenheim and basically shattered all age records.
I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that. He was sorely missed in games against RBL and Dortmund. They just haven’t needed him in their other BuLi games because they played against inferior competition. Could say that about most DMs who are ball winners though. But, he sparks their transitions better than any of his replacements.

However, I do shudder at the thought of Plea and Thuram out, even if Zak was back.
 

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If you think Rose doesn't adapt to certain opposition then I'm gonna ask what you've been watching.

Just recently he adapted to playing against Madrid and our earlier discussion about the Bayern game was him adapting his strategy for a very strong Bayern team.
Rose has consistently played the same formation, which works for him.
The game against Bayern he changed the formation and realised he made a mistake and reverted to type.
He played his usual formation against Real. He seemed to tweak it slightly in that last quarter of the game, they almost played 5 at the back, and they got punished.
So yeah, I'm asking if he doe have a legitimate plan B which works for him.
 

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Rose has consistently played the same formation, which works for him.
The game against Bayern he changed the formation and realised he made a mistake and reverted to type.
He played his usual formation against Real. He seemed to tweak it slightly in that last quarter of the game, they almost played 5 at the back, and they got punished.
So yeah, I'm asking if he doe have a legitimate plan B which works for him.
What does formation have to do with how you approach the game? You could play 4-2-3-1 and adopt a pragmatic approach or play the same formation and be very attack minded.
 

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What does formation have to do with how you approach the game? You could play 4-2-3-1 and adopt a pragmatic approach or play the same formation and be very attack minded.
A plan B usually denotes a complete change of how a team usually plays.
Not if the wingbacks bomb forward or not, or of a midfielder holds his position or not.
Those are tactical tweaks.
For example, Oles plan B is the 3 or 5 at the back like against Chelsea, a complete change from the usual formation.
 

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A plan B usually denotes a complete change of how a team usually plays.
Not if the wingbacks bomb forward or not, or of a midfielder holds his position or not.
Those are tactical tweaks.
For example, Oles plan B is the 3 or 5 at the back like against Chelsea, a complete change from the usual formation.
But a formation doesn't necessarily denote how a team approaches the game IMO. Rodgers at Liverpool played 3 at the back and almost won the league scoring over a 100 goals in the season. Gasperini at Atalanta plays with 3 at the back too and were very attack minded. Ajax in the mid 90s played 3-4-3 and were probably one of the most attack minded teams at the time.
 

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A plan B usually denotes a complete change of how a team usually plays.
Not if the wingbacks bomb forward or not, or of a midfielder holds his position or not.
Those are tactical tweaks.
For example, Oles plan B is the 3 or 5 at the back like against Chelsea, a complete change from the usual formation.
This constant call for a "plan B" is just an empty media phrase most of the time, code for "they lost so they should have done things differently". You don't drill certain principles into your team and try to create a certain confidence about them, just to abandon them when a difficult opponent comes along. A degree of tactical flexibility and adaption is of course important, but a coach who constantly lets the opposition dictate how his team approaches the game is a coach whose team lacks cohesion in possession and against the ball.
And what's written on the formation sheet is almost meaningless. You can write down a classical 433 on the sheet and one game it looks like that on the pitch, in another one a CMs drops between the defenders, the fullbacks push up aggressively and it's a 343 or 325 in possession. Even seemingly like for like changes can make a big difference, e.g. when you substitute a defensive minded CM, who wants to provide cover for someone who sees himself more like a #10 and pushes up the field and takes risks. Or when you substitute an inverse wide player for someone who interprets the position more like a classical winger.

That being said: this is Gladbach's last season:


So even by "plan B standards" you should be quite satisfied?!
 
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Champ

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This constant call for a "plan B" is just an empty media phrase most of the time, code for "they lost so they should have done things differently". You don't drill certain principles into your team and try to create a certain confidence about them, just to abandon them when a difficult opponent comes along. A degree of tactical flexibility and adaption is of course important, but a coach who constantly lets the opposition dictate how his team approaches the game is a coach whose team lacks cohesion in possession and against the ball.
And what's written on the formation sheet is almost meaningless. You can write down a classical 433 on the sheet and one game it looks like that on the pitch, in another one a CMs drops between the defenders, the fullbacks push up aggressively and it's a 343 or 325 in possession. Even seemingly like for like changes can make a big difference, e.g. when you substitute a defensive minded CM, who wants to provide cover for someone who sees himself more like a #10 and pushes up the field and takes risks. Or when you substitute an inverse wide player for someone who interprets the position more like a classical winger.

That being said: this is Gladbach's last season:


So even by "plan B standards" you should be quite satisfied?!
Ah yes, having a back up formation and tactics is just a media phrase.

A plan B is having a complete change of focus in order to win a game, or a complete change half way through a game in order to change the way a game is going.
Rose has changed his formation a few times recently, with no real success, and I use the examples the other poster gave, the game V Bayern, and the game V Real.
Both changes of formation, both resulted in relative failure, (a poor first hour v Bayern, two goals conceded v real)
I get as a manager you don't want to change what's not broken, however we have seen on occasions that when things are not going the way of Gladbach, Rose ends up either reverting to type or not being able to change things.

With regards to the stats you've given on the change of formation, I assume the bracketed figure is the amount of games, in which case Rose has used the same formation in 70% of games,
I'd wager that Ole has used his favoured formation a lot less than that, doesn't make it a bad thing, just highlights what I suspect, which is Rose doesn't yet have a bonafide plan B that has seemed to work for him.
What it does highlight though, is an identity, which is something missing with the way United play for example.
 

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Ah yes, having a back up formation and tactics is just a media phrase.

A plan B is having a complete change of focus in order to win a game, or a complete change half way through a game in order to change the way a game is going.
Rose has changed his formation a few times recently, with no real success, and I use the examples the other poster gave, the game V Bayern, and the game V Real.
Both changes of formation, both resulted in relative failure, (a poor first hour v Bayern, two goals conceded v real)
I get as a manager you don't want to change what's not broken, however we have seen on occasions that when things are not going the way of Gladbach, Rose ends up either reverting to type or not being able to change things.

With regards to the stats you've given on the change of formation, I assume the bracketed figure is the amount of games, in which case Rose has used the same formation in 70% of games,
I'd wager that Ole has used his favoured formation a lot less than that, doesn't make it a bad thing, just highlights what I suspect, which is Rose doesn't yet have a bonafide plan B that has seemed to work for him.
What it does highlight though, is an identity, which is something missing with the way United play for example.
You're not seriously bringing up Solskjaer as an example, are you?
This is the same stat for United's last PL season:


To completely change focus you need to have one in the first place. What is Ole's focus? And I can only repeat: most coaches don't really do that. They have built and drilled their squads to play a certain way and in almost all cases they rather try to make tweaks and find solutions within that framework instead of asking their players to do something they aren't comfortable with. Changing formation is not a "plan B" either. A formation with a back 3/5 can be used to park the bus just as much as it can be used to play an attacking style. You can completely retain your style, despite using a different formation.
 
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Champ

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You're not seriously bringing up Solskjaer as an example, are you?
This is the same stat for United's last PL season:


To completely change focus you need to have one in the first place. What is Ole's focus? And I can only repeat: most coaches don't really do that. They have built and drilled their squads to play a certain way and in almost all cases they rather try to make tweaks and find solutions within that framework instead of asking their players to do something they aren't comfortable with. Changing formation is not a "plan B" either. A formation with a back 3/5 can be used to park the bus just as much as it can be used to play an attacking style. You can completely retain your style, despite using a different formation.
Changing formation is a plan B, the definition of a plan b is to have an alternative option, which a change of formation would be.

I use Ole because he's the current manager of United, and Rose is being touted as a future United manager, I've explained by is previously, to me it makes sense.
I think we both know that Ole has used several formations depending on the opposition, intact using two or sometimes three formations depending on the flow of the game.
Most managers will have a preference for formations, but will train their team in different formations depending on the opposition, it would appear to me that Rose did this against Bayern but it failed spectacularly before he reverted to his norm, pointing to both a mistake by Rose and a lack of a cohesive plan B.
Ole got his alternative plan spectacularly wrong against Arsenal, and didn't change things early enough. At least Rose against Bayern changed things.

Pep, Klopp, Jose, All have a preferred formation, yet have another formation(s) that their players are familiar with and they use frequently depending on the scenarios or opposition.
 

do.ob

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Changing formation is a plan B, the definition of a plan b is to have an alternative option, which a change of formation would be.

I use Ole because he's the current manager of United, and Rose is being touted as a future United manager, I've explained by is previously, to me it makes sense.
I think we both know that Ole has used several formations depending on the opposition, intact using two or sometimes three formations depending on the flow of the game.
Most managers will have a preference for formations, but will train their team in different formations depending on the opposition, it would appear to me that Rose did this against Bayern but it failed spectacularly before he reverted to his norm, pointing to both a mistake by Rose and a lack of a cohesive plan B.
Ole got his alternative plan spectacularly wrong against Arsenal, and didn't change things early enough. At least Rose against Bayern changed things.

Pep, Klopp, Jose, All have a preferred formation, yet have another formation(s) that their players are familiar with and they use frequently depending on the scenarios or opposition.
This is just wrong. At the start of last season Rose was trying out a lot of different things, but using a midfield diamond was perhaps his most common setup. Going down 0-1 after 50 minutes against Bayern is anything but spectacular failure (we're talking about a team which kept trashing opponents even in the CL), he then tweaked his formation, by bringing on an attacker, actually showing that he can adapt. But doing so by staying true to his principles and not "a complete change of how a team usually plays" as you put it.

You mention Klopp: he used a 433 in 35/38 games last season, the most visible adjustment to opposition is probably what midfield trio he picks. You mention Guardiola, when does he ever "completely change" how his team approaches a game? I think the most common criticism of him is that he actually does the opposite.

Solskjaer sometimes changes formation, but when does he just pick an entirely different tactical approach? Like how often do you get the impression that he tells the team that he wants to play an aggressive pressing game or positional football? So for a couple of games he used a 4312 instead of 4231 against top teams - the overall approach was still the same. Passive, hope for a counter. If that constitutes a plan B, or subbing on a defender/attacker based on the game state, then were not talking about having a plan B, were talking about having a plan F, G or H, because that happens several times a game.

One of the very few coaches who actually comes close to what you say is Nagelsmann:


And he's quite special because of it.
 

Cheimoon

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Changing formation is a plan B, the definition of a plan b is to have an alternative option, which a change of formation would be.

I use Ole because he's the current manager of United, and Rose is being touted as a future United manager, I've explained by is previously, to me it makes sense.
I think we both know that Ole has used several formations depending on the opposition, intact using two or sometimes three formations depending on the flow of the game.
Most managers will have a preference for formations, but will train their team in different formations depending on the opposition, it would appear to me that Rose did this against Bayern but it failed spectacularly before he reverted to his norm, pointing to both a mistake by Rose and a lack of a cohesive plan B.
Ole got his alternative plan spectacularly wrong against Arsenal, and didn't change things early enough. At least Rose against Bayern changed things.

Pep, Klopp, Jose, All have a preferred formation, yet have another formation(s) that their players are familiar with and they use frequently depending on the scenarios or opposition.
It is extremely rare that coaches have a Plan B that's radically different from their Plan A. Good coaches have strong patterns drilled into their teams, so such a big change is not useful. They tweak their formations, sure, but I'd you're looking for a radically different Plan B- well, I'm completely with @do.ob on that one.
 

Champ

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This is just wrong. At the start of last season Rose was trying out a lot of different things, but using a midfield diamond was perhaps his most common setup. Going down 0-1 after 50 minutes against Bayern is anything but spectacular failure (we're talking about a team which kept trashing opponents even in the CL), he then tweaked his formation, by bringing on an attacker, actually showing that he can adapt. But doing so by staying true to his principles and not "a complete change of how a team usually plays" as you put it.

You mention Klopp: he used a 433 in 35/38 games last season, the most visible adjustment to opposition is probably what midfield trio he picks. You mention Guardiola, when does he ever "completely change" how his team approaches a game? I think the most common criticism of him is that he actually does the opposite.

Solskjaer sometimes changes formation, but when does he just pick an entirely different tactical approach? Like how often do you get the impression that he tells the team that he wants to play an aggressive pressing game or positional football? So for a couple of games he used a 4312 instead of 4231 against top teams - the overall approach was still the same. Passive, hope for a counter. If that constitutes a plan B, or subbing on a defender/attacker based on the game state, then were not talking about having a plan B, were talking about having a plan F, G or H, because that happens several times a game.

One of the very few coaches who actually comes close to what you say is Nagelsmann:


And he's quite special because of it.
Quite obviously Rose wasn't trying things out that much, hence the 70% using the same formation.
The game against Bayern was men against boys for an hour til the change, it was spectacular failure, Bayern were far superior and only poor finishing kept the score to what it was, anyone that argues otherwise is fighting the truth, and before someone else gives the 'but it's Bayern' speech again, I've already stated that every team is beatable if the right tactics and a wee bit of luck is prevalent.

Pep is probably the most adaptable coach there is, constantly adapting and changing the way his team plays depending on scenarios and opposition.
Klopp less so, but we've seen him play one holding midfielder, two holding midfielders, a fluid 433, all to great effect.

I guess we see the game slightly different, as a player myself I will never view a team as better than mine, as I know my team will work hard for each other and set up in the right way. I get the impression that you see a team as far superior and that can't be beaten, although I could be wrong in that?
 

Champ

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Disappointing result for Gladbach today, Leverkusen going well so far this season and looking a better bet for top four than Gladbach so far

What a goal from Lazaro though, doubt we'll see a better one this season.
 

Champ

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No shame in losing to Leverkusen under Peter Bosz who is one of the 4 options I've picked out as a future United Coach.
The guy who failed at Dortmund?
Had a good spell at Ajax but has never really stayed long at any club he's been at, I'd stay clear personally.
Is there ever a game where Gladbach should actually win?? I swear every game you say there's no shame to them losing!
Certainly Leverkusen are firing on all cylinders right now, definitely a form team, so your right today.
 

PepG

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Peter Bosz is the definition of a naive coach. He embraces fully the Cruyffian philosophy of how a football game should be played BUT has zero adaptabillity to the opponents and their strengths and tactics..United fans should always remember how Mou defeated him in that EL final..
 

Adnan

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The guy who failed at Dortmund?
Had a good spell at Ajax but has never really stayed long at any club he's been at, I'd stay clear personally.
Is there ever a game where Gladbach should actually win?? I swear every game you say there's no shame to them losing!
Certainly Leverkusen are firing on all cylinders right now, definitely a form team, so your right today.
@do.ob Can you give you a explanation on his time at BVB because he's more knowledgable than I am on Bosz's time at the club.

Yes there is games I expect Gladbach to win but away to Leverkusen under Bosz isn't one of those games. Leverkusen won the same fixure last season 3-1.
 

Adnan

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Peter Bosz is the definition of a naive coach. He embraces fully the Cruyffian philosophy of how a football game should be played BUT has zero adaptabillity to the opponents and their strengths and tactics..United fans should always remember how Mou defeated him in that EL final..
We defeated him because we had better players. Give Bosz the same funds Mourinho had at United then we can compare.
 

Champ

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@do.ob Can you give you a explanation on his time at BVB because he's more knowledgable than I am on Bosz's time at the club.

Yes there is games I expect Gladbach to win but away to Leverkusen under Bosz isn't one of those games. Leverkusen won the same fixure last season 3-1.
Yeah, as I say, you are certainly right to call this one as a potential loss for Gladbach given Leverkusens form.

I don't know alot about Bosz, I know he failed spectacularly at Dortmund and wasn't he in charge of Ajax when we won the Europa League? I know he's a bit of a journey man manager and has never really built a team as such.