Marco Rose | OFFICIAL: Joining Dortmund at the end of the season

Hansi Fick

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Form is influenced by factor's outside of the coach's control. Not sure if you're taking the piss and just want me to repeat my previous answers as often as possible to be honest :nervous:
Hell of a coincidence, really, it is then, this loss in form? I think you should take a breath, and a step back, and think again whether "Gladbach's current crisis has nothing to do with Rose" really is the hill you want to die on.
Staggering levels of pig-headedness - no offense, that's the word the dictionary suggested.
 

Sylar

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I think that would be a bridge that BVB will happily cross once they get there :lol:
Oh for sure

Didnt you guys appoint Pep? Then go and win the treble? And the manager didn't want to go / retire? (Maybe I misremember it)
 

Hansi Fick

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Oh for sure

Didnt you guys appoint Pep? Then go and win the treble? And the manager didn't want to go / retire? (Maybe I misremember it)
Would be a somewhat similar situation, yes. I think Heynckes wanted to retire anyway, but I'm not completely sure how it went down exactly, whether he had clearly made the final decision yet and whether he wouldn't have maybe gone on for another season. I think the club moving for Pep kind of made the decision final for him.
Obviously, at the moment the club hired Pep, we were not actually the famous treble winners, but serial losers; which is something people forget.
 

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Hell of a coincidence, really, it is then, this loss in form? I think you should take a breath, and a step back, and think again whether "Gladbach's current crisis has nothing to do with Rose" really is the hill you want to die on.
Staggering levels of pig-headedness - no offense, that's the word the dictionary suggested.
What coincidence? Gladbach announced Rose's departure in February 15. Their victory against Dortmund was on January 22, after that date they are at one win (Stuttgart), two draws (Wolfsburg and Union) and seven losses (Cologne, Mainz, City, Leipzig, Dortmund, Leverkusen and Augsburg). The were already in bad form when the move became public. What you're doing is false attribution.

a) The downwards spiral was already going when Rose went
b) Their team is on their last legs
c) Four out of their seven losses were against better teams and one was in a derby
 

Hansi Fick

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What coincidence? Gladbach announced Rose's departure in February 15. Their victory against Dortmund was on January 22, after that date they are at one win (Stuttgart), two draws (Wolfsburg and Union) and seven losses (Cologne, Mainz, City, Leipzig, Dortmund, Leverkusen and Augsburg). The were already in bad form when the move became public. What you're doing is false attribution.

a) The downwards spiral was already going when Rose went
b) Their team is on their last legs
c) Four out of their seven losses were against better teams and one was in a derby
So - your argument is that the total collapse of results can't have anything to do with Rose making the decision to jump ship midseason, because it already started 2 weeks before the public was told? :lol:
 

do.ob

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And why would you even want to 'leave aside their current problems of form' when judging the manager's work? They are clearly part of his record and of his performance, aren't they?
He's quite clearly not overperforming with this Gladbach side seeing that they are 10th in the table.
I assume you're referring to my post?! I wrote that when talking about their squad strength.

If you get one point from eight games as Gladbach, then it has to be about the coach, at least on some level. There are enough other factors at play that I won't worry about Rose, infact it's probably good for him to experience setbacks for the first time in his career and it lessens expectations for him at Dortmund, too. But from Gladbach's perspective I don't get it.
 

Hansi Fick

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I assume you're referring to my post?! I wrote that when talking about their squad strength.

If you get one point from eight games as Gladbach, then it has to be about the coach, at least on some level. There are enough other factors at play that I won't worry about Rose, infact it's probably good for him to experience setbacks for the first time in his career and it lessens expectations for him at Dortmund, too. But from Gladbach's perspective I don't get it.
I was referring to your post, but as an addition, not an objection.

My point is not that Rose is not a competent coach or intelligent tactician. My point is, as you also refer to with "at least on some level", that motivating the team, having authority, credibility and rapport with it, are also important aspects of a managers work and performance and of course the crisis is, to a large part, an effect of Rose failing in these aspects, in the aftermath of his decision to leave.
 

Zehner

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So - your argument is that the total collapse of results can't have anything to do with Rose making the decision to jump ship midseason, because it already started 2 weeks before the public was told? :lol:
Yes. Precisely, it's one of my arguments. I think I don't need to repeat the remaining ones, too.
 

do.ob

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Yes. Precisely, it's one of my arguments. I think I don't need to repeat the remaining ones, too.
That really doesn't work, since the announcement didn't come out of nowhere. The issue had been stewing since before Christmas and especially Rose himself seemed increasingly irritated by it.
 

Zehner

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You don't need to, no. Well, it's a brave stance, I give you that.
It might be an unpopular opinion but I think it's more plausible than the notion that a team of professional players is mentally so devastated that their beloved 1.5 half season long coach goes to a rival that their performances drop multiple levels, especially if that was already the case two or three weeks before Rose told them he'd go at the end of the season.

To be honest, I think it's almost a bit cute to think that Rose's departure has more influence on the results than the fact that the team not only lacks depth but also quality while playing three competitions during a tightly scheduled Corona season. But that's just me.
 

Zehner

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That really doesn't work, since the announcement didn't come out of nowhere. The issue had been stewing since before Christmas and especially Rose himself seemed increasingly irritated by it.
I'm sorry, I always found the idea that professional football players are so confused by a few media reports that they can't focus on their performances a bit silly but at least you can argue this can mess with their focus and nerves on the pitch. But a coach? How should this even influence him in his work? As if it somehow tampers with his tactical approach, training routines, analyses and so forth.
 

do.ob

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It might be an unpopular opinion but I think it's more plausible than the notion that a team of professional players is mentally so devastated that their beloved 1.5 half season long coach goes to a rival that their performances drop multiple levels, especially if that was already the case two or three weeks Rose told them he'd go at the end of the season.

To be honest, I think it's almost a bit cute to think that Rose's departure has more influence on the results than the fact that the team not only lacks depth but also quality while playing three competitions during a tightly scheduled Corona season. But that's just me.
I'm sorry, I always found the idea that professional football players are so confused by a few media reports that they can't focus on their performances a bit silly but at least you can argue this can mess with their focus and nerves on the pitch. But a coach? How should this even influence him in his work? As if it somehow tampers with his tactical approach, training routines, analyses and so forth.


Football at that level deals in fine margins. A couple of weeks ago things were looking dire for Dortmund and a few good results later the confidence is back and a top 4 finish and cup success seem at least possible. For Gladbach this is especially true, since they don't have life insurance players like Haaland or Sancho to bail them out. They need teamwork, workrate and confidence to succeed and in that regard it makes a huge difference if the guy who is supposed to motivate and lead you has already secured his next step up, perhaps broken some promises or dashing some hopes as collateral damage. It's probably a difficult situation to manage a season that had such a hopeful beginning slowly petering out, with some key players probably considering their future as well.

Management and players at Gladbach can read the news, too. They will have had their questions for Rose. It's something he probably had to do a lot of dancing around.
 

Hansi Fick

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To be honest, I think it's almost a bit cute to think that Rose's departure has more influence on the results than the fact that the team not only lacks depth but also quality while playing three competitions during a tightly scheduled Corona season. But that's just me.
It really, really isn't; on the contrary, the way you outright and stubbornly refuse to in any way factor in what's glaringly obvious and completely conclusive, and then top it off, as you did, with an absurdist "even Pep couldn't have done better (than 6 straight losses)" comment, is the very definition of being cute.
But never mind.
 

Zehner

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Football at that level deals in fine margins. A couple of weeks ago things were looking dire for Dortmund and a few good results later the confidence is back and a top 4 finish and cup success seem at least possible. For Gladbach this is especially true, since they don't have life insurance players like Haaland or Sancho to bail them out. They need teamwork, workrate and confidence to succeed and in that regard it makes a huge difference if the guy who is supposed to motivate and lead you has already secured his next step up, perhaps broken some promises or dashing some hopes as collateral damage. It's probably a difficult situation to manage a season that had such a hopeful beginning slowly petering out, with some key players probably considering their future as well.

Management and players at Gladbach can read the news, too. They will have had their questions for Rose. It's something he probably had to do a lot of dancing around.
I'm sorry man, this all sounds interesting but in the end it's nothing but speculation. You have no clue how the players reacted. All we know is that some of them publicly claimed that what you described is not the case and that Eberl who is far closer to the team sticks with Rose. He definitely wouldn't do so if he thought what you just described is the case. I think that has much more informative value than half assed sport-psychological remote diagnoses from people who have never spoken to even one of the players or coaches in question.

So I prefer to stick with arguments that have a little more substance. Like the thin squad, the very exhausting season, the fact that they play in three competitions, that four of the seven losses occurred against better teams, that other teams playing in multiple competitions went through comparable patches of atrocious form before, that the downwards spiral started way before the official announcement but also way after the beginning of the rumors and so forth. I'm also a bit irritated how anybody can see it differently. To be honest, I think your analyses is very superficial and is the sort of opinion Lothar Matthäus or Mario Basler would share. No offense, in general I rate your posts, but on this topic I think you're buying far too much into pub psychology.

I mean, Leverkusen went respectively still is going through the exact same situation and it evidently has nothing to do with the coach being elsewhere with his mind or anything like that. There are so, so many parallels, also to teams like Liverpool or Tottenham. You really shouldn't be so quick to judge with all those implications to the contrary. This season is unprecedented.
 

do.ob

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I'm sorry man, this all sounds interesting but in the end it's nothing but speculation. You have no clue how the players reacted. All we know is that some of them publicly claimed that what you described is not the case and that Eberl who is far closer to the team sticks with Rose. He definitely wouldn't do so if he thought what you just described is the case. I think that has much more informative value than half assed sport-psychological remote diagnoses from people who have never spoken to even one of the players or coaches in question.

So I prefer to stick with arguments that have a little more substance. Like the thin squad, the very exhausting season, the fact that they play in three competitions, that four of the seven losses occurred against better teams, that other teams playing in multiple competitions went through comparable patches of atrocious form before, that the downwards spiral started way before the official announcement but also way after the beginning of the rumors and so forth. I'm also a bit irritated how anybody can see it differently. To be honest, I think your analyses is very superficial and is the sort of opinion Lothar Matthäus or Mario Basler would share. No offense, in general I rate your posts, but on this topic I think you're buying far too much into pub psychology.
I don't think it's pub psychology to suggest that in a larger group not everyone is going to like it when the boss jumps ship to the competition. And as far as the collateral damage I had in mind:

https://www.kicker.de/ginter-ueber-...ch-ueberraschen-4000000036217/transfermeldung

Ginter, one of the squad leaders, saying he'd be surprised if Rose left and that Rose had assured him about his long-term thinking when Ginter himself was supposedly contemplating a move.
 

Zehner

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I don't think it's pub psychology to suggest that in a larger group not everyone is going to like it when the boss jumps ship to the competition. And as far as the collateral damage I had in mind:

https://www.kicker.de/ginter-ueber-...ch-ueberraschen-4000000036217/transfermeldung

Ginter, one of the squad leaders, saying he'd be surprised if Rose left and that Rose had assured him about his long-term thinking when Ginter himself was supposedly contemplating a move.
I mean, you have to admit that this is a rather weak argument. As I said, I'm missing the substance with those claims. At best this is a hint that some may have mixed feelings towards Rose now but then you still have to prove that this tampered with their performances.

At least to me, the arguments I listed seem much more substantial while this is nothing but speculation. Especially since there are currently so many stories like Gladbach's and they're probably the only one of those clubs about to lose their head coach.
 

do.ob

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I mean, you have to admit that this is a rather weak argument. As I said, I'm missing the substance with those claims. At best this is a hint that some may have mixed feelings towards Rose now but then you still have to prove that this tampered with their performances.

At least to me, the arguments I listed seem much more substantial while this is nothing but speculation. Especially since there are currently so many stories like Gladbach's and they're probably the only one of those clubs about to lose their head coach.

I mean there is a quote of Rose literally saying: "I take this loss on my hat, because there has been a lot of ruckus surrounding my person."

Before yesterday's match he said that: "The boys have realized, that we are lacking a certain relaxed attitude. We talked to each other during the week, that we want to develop even more enthusiasm ("Spielfreude")."

After yesterday's match he said: "The head always conditions the legs."

Their problem is as much in their heads as it is in their gas tank or quality.
 

Hansi Fick

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I mean there is a quote of Rose literally saying: "I take this loss on my hat, because there has been a lot of ruckus surrounding my person."

Before yesterday's match he said that: "The boys have realized, that we are lacking a certain relaxed attitude. We talked to each other during the week, that we want to develop even more enthusiasm ("Spielfreude")."

After yesterday's match he said: "The head always conditions the legs."

Their problem is as much in their heads as it is in their gas tank or quality.
I'm going to need a little bit more substance. Both manager and key player might have said it publicly, but did they sign a written affidavit?
 

Zehner

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Come on man, that's cheap. You take those quotes completely out of context and I think you're better than that. The first quote is from the first game after his departure was made public. The first. It's almost a month old. The other quotes aren't addressing the state of mind after his departure but are in the context of the crises. Those are things every coach out there says when his team loses a few games back to back.

Rose literally said after the the last game that the team played well and literally claimed that those good performances show "we work together and we stand together." The way you depict it, one could think he stood in front of journalists and casually dropped how his exit completely destroyed the mentality of his team.

On a side note, Kramer claimed just last week that the team fully supports the head coach, that one should take off the Gladbach glasses and show some understanding and that Rose is a firm character who remains calm even if many people write that he's an asshole.
 

do.ob

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Come on man, that's cheap. You take those quotes completely out of context and I think you're better than that. The first quote is from the first game after his departure was made public. The first. It's almost a month old. The other quotes aren't addressing the state of mind after his departure but are in the context of the crises. Those are things every coach out there says when his team loses a few games back to back.

Rose literally said after the the last game that the team played well and literally claimed that those good performances show "we work together and we stand together." The way you depict it, one could think he stood in front of journalists and casually dropped how his exit completely destroyed the mentality of his team.

On a side note, Kramer claimed just last week that the team fully supports the head coach, that one should take off the Gladbach glasses and show some understanding and that Rose is a firm character who remains calm even if many people write that he's an asshole.
You posted arguments along the lines of:
"I doubt even Pep Guardiola would get better results under these circumstances."

The first Rose quote proves that his situation actually has (had) a very real effect on the team and supposedly cost them in at least one of their games. And with the opposition being Mainz it was one they desperately needed to win.
The other two quotes prove that it isn't just fatigue, that there is an actual mental side to these problems and that's something the coach has to actively manage. It's not necessarily all about Rose's move, but as he conceded himself it is or has been a contributing factor to their bad run. Sommer is a very good indicator of that mental side, since you can't claim exhaustion on a keeper, yet he's been absolutely woeful by his own standards.
 
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Zehner

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You posted arguments along the lines of:
"I doubt even Pep Guardiola would get better results under these circumstances."

The first Rose quote proves that his situation actually has (had) a very real effect on the team and supposedly cost them in at least one of their games. And with the opposition being Mainz it was one they desperately needed to win.
The other two quotes prove that it isn't just fatigue, that there is an actual mental side to these problems and that's something the coach has to actively manage. It's not necessarily all about Rose's move, but as he conceded himself it is or has been a contributing factor to their bad run. Sommer is a very good indicator of that mental side, since you can't claim exhaustion on a keeper, yet he's been absolutely woeful by his own standards.
No, it shows that Rose tried to take the blame when he was in a much stronger position than he is now. Eberl was confronted just now in the Sportstudio with that quote and claimed that this was Rose's claim, not his. The rest of his statements were more or less exactly in line with what I wrote earlier: He doesn't think it's Rose's fault, pointed out that they had very good games recently but the results were very unlucky and more or less gave Rose a job guarantee until the end of the season, claiming that he currently can't imagine a constellation in which a sacking would make sense. Moreover, he explained that last year's CL qualification was to Gladbach what a title win is to other clubs.

And that's the only sensible assessment, IMO. I mean, I'm not even a fan of Rose and not sure if he really justifies the hype but Eberl is on point like usual.