Mason Greenwood must start ahead of Rashford

[Flexdegea]

They need to start playing him with Arteta monitoring the situation we are lead to believe

 

[siw2007]

Thing is Ronaldo already has this role on lock so who's going to drop deep to link up with the midfield if he and Ronaldo are playing on the last defender? Why Greenwood should get a look in the deeper role. Last match showed Ronaldo/Rashford redundancy created a hole in our linkup. It's not even about who's a pound for pound better player but rather who's better in the deeper striker role. Rashford can also play on the left, he was much better when Ralf swapped him there.

Im not sure Ronaldo does exactly play on the shoulder, he occasionally makes a run but often comes alive when the ball is in and around the box. I’m happy to play Greenwood as the striker who drops off into the hole to collect the ball but it tactically it makes sense to use Rashford in the striker position to stretch the play and give the space for the likes of Bruno and Sancho to play in

 

[Foxbatt]

Im not sure Ronaldo does exactly play on the shoulder, he occasionally makes a run but often comes alive when the ball is in and around the box. I’m happy to play Greenwood as the striker who drops off into the hole to collect the ball but it tactically it makes sense to use Rashford in the striker position to stretch the play and give the space for the likes of Bruno and Sancho to play in

But then most of the time he tries to beat too many players and lose the ball.

 

[siw2007]

But then most of the time he tries to beat too many players and lose the ball.

That’s a completely different issue altogether. United over the last few years has been a team that has been geared to counter and used players like Rashford to complete take ons using his pace and skill. He hasn’t developed a solution to his game when facing a tight defence which is something I think Ralf will work with him on. However, as a player, Rashford will move across the front line, looking to make runs in behind the back line of the opposition, we can use long passes to split open their defence using Bruno or other players. Other teams will decide that they need to counter this threat by dropping their defensive line which gives us a better control of the game. Rashford is very frustrating at times but maybe other than Elanga, is the only one that offers this dimension.

 

[Greck]

Im not sure Ronaldo does exactly play on the shoulder, he occasionally makes a run but often comes alive when the ball is in and around the box. I’m happy to play Greenwood as the striker who drops off into the hole to collect the ball but it tactically it makes sense to use Rashford in the striker position to stretch the play and give the space for the likes of Bruno and Sancho to play in

because as we both know there isn't actually any attacking role in vertical tikitaka that absolves either striker from being a decision maker or coming on to the ball. The most advanced man has some of the hardest passing decisions to make. He needs to level up his decisionmaking big. Under Ole they got to run and shoot in those situations.

In our last game he messed just about every tricky decision in those positions. Sometimes looked like he got to the box and thought "oh yea, coach said we should square it in these situations" before pulling it back and playing a poor pass. His chemistry with Ronaldo was also lacking. He isn't a better advanced striker than Ronaldo so Ronaldo will be the advanced forward when healthy. Someone else will be the deeplying forward. Both strikers however need to be good decision makers. I don't think there's a pure poacher role in there.

 

[siw2007]

because as we both know there isn't actually any attacking role in vertical tikitaka that absolves either striker from being a decision maker or coming on to the ball. The most advanced man has some of the hardest passing decisions to make. He needs to level up his decisionmaking big. Under Ole they got to run and shoot in those situations.

In our last game he messed just about every tricky decision in those positions. Sometimes looked like he got to the box and thought "oh yea, coach said we should square it in these situations" before pulling it back and playing a poor pass. His chemistry with Ronaldo was also lacking. He isn't a better advanced striker than Ronaldo so Ronaldo will be the advanced forward when healthy. Someone else will be the deeplying forward. Both strikers however need to be good decision makers. I don't think there's a pure poacher role in there.

The problem I am seeing with a Greenwood/Ronaldo front line is that Ronaldo doesn’t have the pace and mobility to stretch a defence and Greenwood wants to drop off to get involved in the build up like a 9.5. It would be easy for opposition to push up on us and suffocate the likes of Bruno and Sancho, suddenly it becomes harder for us to get our creative players in the game. If the opposition are determined to play deep then this partnership makes total sense, otherwise we need to incentivise them to drop off and the way to do that is to have a player who has the speed, movement and energy to probe that back line and make them check that otherwise risk being punished, that is why Rashford makes sense. I do however acknowledge that Rashford is not offering the quality at the moment, so definitely willing to try the other partnership, I just think in some games that we would be too predictable in our build up.

 

[Hammondo]

The problem I am seeing with a Greenwood/Ronaldo front line is that Ronaldo doesn’t have the pace and mobility to stretch a defence and Greenwood wants to drop off to get involved in the build up like a 9.5. It would be easy for opposition to push up on us and suffocate the likes of Bruno and Sancho, suddenly it becomes harder for us to get our creative players in the game. If the opposition are determined to play deep then this partnership makes total sense, otherwise we need to incentivise them to drop off and the way to do that is to have a player who has the speed, movement and energy to probe that back line and make them check that otherwise risk being punished, that is why Rashford makes sense. I do however acknowledge that Rashford is not offering the quality at the moment, so definitely willing to try the other partnership, I just think in some games that we would be too predictable in our build up.

You don't need Rashford levels of speed

 

[Greck]

The problem I am seeing with a Greenwood/Ronaldo front line is that Ronaldo doesn’t have the pace and mobility to stretch a defence and Greenwood wants to drop off to get involved in the build up like a 9.5. It would be easy for opposition to push up on us and suffocate the likes of Bruno and Sancho, suddenly it becomes harder for us to get our creative players in the game. If the opposition are determined to play deep then this partnership makes total sense, otherwise we need to incentivise them to drop off and the way to do that is to have a player who has the speed, movement and energy to probe that back line and make them check that otherwise risk being punished, that is why Rashford makes sense. I do however acknowledge that Rashford is not offering the quality at the moment, so definitely willing to try the other partnership, I just think in some games that we would be too predictable in our build up.

As a team that's actually trying to control games the starting point is what a player can do on the ball. If we're controlling games and pushing teams back most attacks won't have enough space for stretching defenses to become the most important trait for our advanced forward. It was under Ole and Jose where we did the total opposite. Stretching defenses is important but not close to a priority skill especially if we're going to be pushing teams back for long periods. Rashford doesn't have to start.

 

[siw2007]

You don't need Rashford levels of speed

Depends on where the defensive line is and you certainly need players willing to run in behind.

 

[siw2007]

As a team that's actually trying to control games the starting point is what a player can do on the ball. If we're controlling games and pushing teams back most attacks won't have enough space for stretching defenses to become the most important trait for our advanced forward. It was under Ole and Jose where we did the total opposite. Stretching defenses is important but not close to a priority skill especially if we're going to be pushing teams back for long periods. Rashford doesn't have to start.

In an ideal scenario where we can dominate possession most games then yes, we don’t need a player like Rashford, but we are way off that and tbf I don’t see us being a team that can play that way at the moment. So I still see the value in using a player like Rashford in some games to punish teams that play a high line.

 

[Hammondo]

Depends on where the defensive line is and you certainly need players willing to run in behind.

Not many teams have players like rashford tbh, they have more players like sancho.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You don't need Rashford levels of speed

But it certainly doesn't harm.

 

[siw2007]

Not many teams have players like rashford tbh, they have more players like sancho.

Liverpool utilise Mane very well and PSG/France use Mbappe as do Spurs with Son. All superior players to Rashford but with the right work we could be as effective using his speed and movement to transition quickly up the pitch.

 

[Teja]

Liverpool utilise Mane very well and PSG/France use Mbappe as do Spurs with Son. All superior players to Rashford but with the right work we could be as effective using his speed and movement to transition quickly up the pitch.

Werner during Leipzig days as well. You need a forward that can stretch the lines with pace.

I think Rashford + Greenwood together could be really good but that means dropping you know who for a game and that's going to generate a bunch of unnecessary media drama.

 

[siw2007]

Werner during Leipzig days as well. You need a forward that can stretch the lines with pace.

I think Rashford + Greenwood together could be really good but that means dropping you know who for a game and that's going to generate a bunch of unnecessary media drama.

I think it comes down to factors such as horses for courses, who’s available, who’s on form, rotation etc. As many have pointed out, there will be games where we won’t want Marcus but there will be plenty where Marcus in theory should be a good choice and we would hope that the management would make the right call.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Werner during Leipzig days as well. You need a forward that can stretch the lines with pace.

I think Rashford + Greenwood together could be really good but that means dropping you know who for a game and that's going to generate a bunch of unnecessary media drama.

Ronaldo will not play every game. I'm sure Rangnick will rest him here and there and rightly so. So there is a good chance that we will see the Rashford-Greenwood striker duo a few times this season. Especially if the Cavani to Barca rumours turn out to be true.

 

[Hammondo]

But it certainly doesn't harm.

True, but the trade-off for his weaknesses is not worth it.

 

[Cassidy]

In a couple of years there will be a thread x player should start ahead of Greenwood

 

[Hammondo]

Liverpool utilise Mane very well and PSG/France use Mbappe as do Spurs with Son. All superior players to Rashford but with the right work we could be as effective using his speed and movement to transition quickly up the pitch.

I agree with mane and mbappa, son is not anywhere near that fast.

 

[Greck]

Werner during Leipzig days as well. You need a forward that can stretch the lines with pace.

I think Rashford + Greenwood together could be really good but that means dropping you know who for a game and that's going to generate a bunch of unnecessary media drama.

Dropping Ronaldo for Rashford isn't any less insane. Rashford's form is horrendous right now. He also isn't a better advanced forward because of running. Speed alone doesn't even make him a suitable advanced forward. The likes of Mbappe, Mane and Son are so far ahead of Rashford in decision making it's wrong to equate the reason they start has having an overlap with Rashford.

Arent they also wide players? how is it relevant to the 2 striker setup we're trying to work? We don't actually have problems with Rashford on the left but we're talking about the advanced foward now and there's more to being the advanced forward in a vertical tiki taka than running fast. I'm surprised the talk hasn't even moved on from this running fast to actual technical and mental skills he needs to play the role. People are sure that's going to make up for generally shaky decision making? Being able to hold the ball and bring others into play is probably even more important for the role. Running does nothing if you're just going to get the ball and make the wrong choice.

 

[Greck]

In an ideal scenario where we can dominate possession most games then yes, we don’t need a player like Rashford, but we are way off that and tbf I don’t see us being a team that can play that way at the moment. So I still see the value in using a player like Rashford in some games to punish teams that play a high line.

That's why we're going to start moving in that direction starting now. Practice and familarity with the style starts now.

 

[siw2007]

That's why we're going to start moving in that direction starting now. Practice and familarity with the style starts now.

Im not actually sure we will be a team looking to be primarily possession oriented. Yes, we want to be better in possession but I still think that quick transitions along with counter pressing will be more predominant in our style going forwards.

 

[Teja]

Dropping Ronaldo for Rashford isn't any less insane. Rashford's form is horrendous right now. He also isn't a better advanced forward because of running. Speed alone doesn't even make him a suitable advanced forward. The likes of Mbappe, Mane and Son are so far ahead of Rashford in decision making it's wrong to equate the reason they start has having an overlap with Rashford.

Arent they also wide players? how is it relevant to the 2 striker setup we're trying to work? We don't actually have problems with Rashford on the left but we're talking about the advanced foward now and there's more to being the advanced forward in a vertical tiki taka than running fast. I'm surprised the talk hasn't even moved on from this running fast to actual technical and mental skills he needs to play the role. People are sure that's going to make up for generally shaky decision making? Being able to hold the ball and bring others into play is probably even more important for the role.

He is extremely good at making intelligent off the ball runs, I don't know what you're on about. He's also willing to make those runs non stop unlike Greenwood / Martial who like ball to feet.

For the whole of last season our Plan A for transitions was to get the ball to Bruno and have him ping it to Rashford. Against mid blocks we try the Lindelof -> Rashford ball with him making that angled run multiple times a game.

Where he becomes really ineffective is when the opposition really digs into the low block and clogs up the center of the pitch. His touch is inconsistent under pressure and he can't really receive under pressure and turn the same way players like Foden, Sancho etc. can. His dribbling is also pretty inconsistent, 1v1 out wide, tries a trick and falls over.

I'm sure he'll do fine under Rangnick. 1st in non penalty goals, 2nd in goals scored during 20/21 for us, more G+A than Mane as well. There's a reason for this and a bit of poor form won't change that.

 

[Greck]

Im not actually sure we will be a team looking to be primarily possession oriented. Yes, we want to be better in possession but I still think that quick transitions along with counter pressing will be more predominant in our style going forwards.

Rangnick said he wants to control games in one of his first interviews. That's not becoming primarily possession oriented. We will keep the ball and work it into advanced areas with short passing. That's just a modern attack, they all emphasize possession principles even though they aren't all trying to become late 00s Barca. It's not possession for the sake of possession but it's also a far cry from the blueprint of Bruno pinging passes for Rashford to run onto or Young hoofing balls to Lukaku. There will be actual build up in chance creation with several attacking players involved.

 

[siw2007]

Rangnick said he wants to control games. That's not becoming primarily possession oriented. We will keep the ball and work it into advanced areas with short passing. That's just a modern attack, they all emphasize possession principles even though they aren't all trying to become late 00s Barca. It's not possession for the sake of possession but it's also a far cry from the blueprint of Bruno pinging passes for Rashford to run onto or Young hoofing balls to Lukaku. There will be actual build up in chance creation with several attacking players involved.

But in that, we will look to move the ball quickly and vertically through the pitch through quick translations and because of this we can use Rashford or players like him to make runs in behind the defence to engineer goal scoring positions. There is definitely room for a player like him in our starting 11 if deemed appropriate.