Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

[bosnian_red]

To some extent I think the level of spurs is relevant, who would have anticipated them to be in the UCL finals. They consistently finished in the top four. Context is important, if you deem those things to be inadequate, than Ole spending 450 million and crashing out multiple European league competitions should be considered an absolute catastrophic failure with his stint at United.

I mean... it was an absolute catastrophic failure
The level of Spurs is relevant. Pochettino did a good job at raising their level. However I'm of a firm belief that there are many managers who are capable of raising the level of a team to be a top 4 competitor level. That's what he did. He then had multiple opportunities once he already had a very good squad to make the step up. To win trophies. To seriously compete for trophies. He failed at that and eventually they went backwards under him.

I don't want another manager whose ceiling is a top 4 place. They have to push for the title and the elite sides in europe, otherwise they'll eventually have a collapse after a few years of not making the step up. That's the standard that we need at United. Pochettino's limit, IMO, is just making the push to a CL spot. We need manager who can reach the next level. Bayern have that with Nagelsmann. They had it with Flick previously. Chelsea, Liverpool and City have it. Ten Hag is one who definitely has that potential, considering the level his Ajax teams have played at in the CL.

 

[Jezpeza]

We should stop playing football. Just shout we are Manutd and UEFA and Premier League should hand us trophies. Just because we are Manutd.

Funny how people think just being Manutd means you don't have to earn your place. Who is your first choice then?

I guess he will come in and say the magic words We are Manutd and we will win trophies?

You are talking utter bollocks. Of course you have to earn it but theres no chance starting off with a manager who everyone knows is going to be out of his depth. Hiring pochettino is just an Ole mark 2, may as well of stuck with Ole.

Of everyone i think is gettable atm, i would go with Roberto Mancini. Feck his city connections he has big game acumen and is proven in this league and on his cv.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Think he will succeed at united?

He will have you contending again absolutely but I don't think its gonna be a quick turnaround his problem with us was always the last push to get over the line. You wont find many Spurs fans with a bad word to say about him, but people distort his time with us, we had an exceptional first team when he joined us, plus Harry on fire, for a good couple of seasons and he should have won something.

 

[romufc]

You are talking utter bollocks. Of course you have to earn it but theres no chance starting off with a manager who everyone knows is going to be out of his depth. Hiring pochettino is just an Ole mark 2, may as well of stuck with Ole.

Of everyone i think is gettable atm, i would go with Roberto Mancini. Feck his city connections he has big game acumen and is proven in this league and on his cv.

I am talking Utter Bollocks... then goes on to mention Mancini. Are you his agent that you think he is gettable? He just won the Euros with Italy with the world cup next year.

Thats like saying Klopp is gettable.

 

[ti vu]

They might have less money but they've spent obscene amounts on Felix and Lemar, then there's Griezmann's wages, not to mention their average spend is something like 25m Euro's upwards on the rest of the players they buy. Pochettino got no where near that level of backing at Spurs and was lucky Kane happened to break through during his tenure.

Before Simeone can enjoy this kind of backing, he had to make do with low level of spending. Also having to endure stadium project. Poch got undone by the stadium project. When Levy started allow big spending Poch used it on players like NDombele, Lo Celso which haven't impressed even now.

Before the high spending era, Simeone won smaller trophies like Copa Del Rey and Europa League too. He "earned" the right to demand, especially winning La Liga, 2 CL final, and another Europa League. Most recently another La Liga.

Poch only big trophies worth the effort approach is silly and arrogant. Ironically his first trophy is a smaller one with PSG. You may blame Levy for being stringy, and too focus on the stadium project, but at the end of the day, with that Spurs team, not even a League Cup, nor FA Cup, while crashing out of EL against Gent/Genk in early KO round is all on Poch.

Then the ability to control a dressing room with ego. While Simeone doesn't have to deal with Hollywood dressing room like PSG, Real Madrid, Barcelona... his Atletico team over the years not necessarily lack of difficult character. Griezman, Diego Costa. Then short term signings that always look like leaving when the right time come like Falcao, Rodri, Aguero

 

[Jezpeza]

I am talking Utter Bollocks... then goes on to mention Mancini. Are you his agent that you think he is gettable? He just won the Euros with Italy with the world cup next year.

Thats like saying Klopp is gettable.

please. You keep a part time international job and turn down man utd? This isnt the 1960s when every club manager drooled over national appointments you know

 

[bosnian_red]

You could seriously apply that sentence to United under Fergie at multiple points in his tenure. Not saying there's a comparison there but winning games is the most important thing, and he did that for the most part without being back in the transfer market at all by Levy

There's a big difference in that Sir Alex won trophies every year... Pochettino never won anything with Spurs. There's a massive difference between top 4 caliber managers and title challenging/winning caliber managers IMO. There are loads of top 4 caliber ones and Pochettino for me is just another one of those.

 

[the_cliff]

I mean... it was an absolute catastrophic failure
The level of Spurs is relevant. Pochettino did a good job at raising their level. However I'm of a firm belief that there are many managers who are capable of raising the level of a team to be a top 4 competitor level. That's what he did. He then had multiple opportunities once he already had a very good squad to make the step up. To win trophies. To seriously compete for trophies. He failed at that and eventually they went backwards under him.

I don't want another manager whose ceiling is a top 4 place. They have to push for the title and the elite sides in europe, otherwise they'll eventually have a collapse after a few years of not making the step up. That's the standard that we need at United. Pochettino's limit, IMO, is just making the push to a CL spot. We need manager who can reach the next level. Bayern have that with Nagelsmann. They had it with Flick previously. Chelsea, Liverpool and City have it. Ten Hag is one who definitely has that potential, considering the level his Ajax teams have played at in the CL.

To be fair to Poch, he can only use what he had at his disposal. When he was constantly making top 4 he was still not backed in the transfer market to try and make that next step. Spurs fans can back me up here but Spurs only started spending serious money when Poch left, which is quite ironic since he's been their best manager in recent history.

Take Conte for example, he's a world class manager and I would take him here in a heartbeat. I was also one of the few fans on here defending him when everyone was calling him Mourinho 2.0. If Conte finishes top 4 this season with that Spurs team he would get plaudits for doing an outstanding job. Even though Spurs have net spent over the last 2 seasons significantly more than Poch spent in his whole time at Spurs and there are no questions if Conte is a winner as he has proved it again and again.

 

[JPRouve]

Misleading about net spend. Misleading about lower position, they may be lower that season but Athelti are not Spurs.

They won the Europa league and super cup before Simeone arrived at Madrid.

They were definitely not Spurs, Atletico were a worse La Liga team than Spurs were a PL team during the previous years. And it's not as if Tottenham actually did that well in Europe under Pochettino outside of the final, their best result is round of 16 of the CL/EL.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

This club always goes for the story over substance. Poch? Might be because they see him as a long term manager. He wouldn't even survive 2 seasons here given his personality.

We could simply hire an interim and wait for good managers to become available. What was the board doing during past few months when the writing was on the wall for Ole? Look at City for comparison, they knew they'll have Pep years before he came, and they know he'll be replaced soon in advance. They surely must be doing their homework on the replacement.

What does our board exactly do.

 

[Moriarty]

Yeah. I see the Matt Busby thing being mentioned. However, when Matt Busby became United manager the clubs were still selling players to each other. Completely different time.

It certainly was. Liverpool offered us players after Munich too. Busby and Shankly were great friends. having said that, I just can't see United fans taking to Rogers.

 

[Jackal981]

please. You keep a part time international job and turn down man utd? This isnt the 1960s when every club manager drooled over national appointments you know

Truly delusional. Every manager dream is to win the world cup with their national team. If Mancini is given a choice to win a WC with Italy or UCL and PL double with United he will 100% choose Italy. Nobody will give a feck if he won with United unless it is United fans and if he won the WC with Italy he will be remembered forever.

 

[JPRouve]

It certainly was. Liverpool offered us players after Munich too. Busby and Shankly were great friends. having said that, I just can't see United fans taking to Rogers.

Isn't that linked to Busby being scouse?

 

[Reapersoul20]

That’s it’s you’ve convinced me. I’m sold on Mauricio “at least he’s not Brendan Rodgers” Pochettino

I wasn't trying to sell you? I couldn't care less what a random person on the internet who I wasn't even speaking to thinks

 

[Reapersoul20]

rather have neither.

I mean I can think of loads I'd prefer over both, but nobody is available. Who did you have in mind?

 

[romufc]

They were definitely not Spurs, Atletico were a worse La Liga team than Spurs were a PL team during the previous years. And it's not as if Tottenham actually did that well in Europe under Pochettino outside of the final, their best result is round of 16 of the CL/EL.

So who's your coach of choice?

 

[bosnian_red]

our post-Fergie managers PPG while at United (league stats only).

Opposition	David Moyes	Louis van Gaal	Jose Mourinho	Ole Gunnar Solskjær
Arsenal	2 (2)	1.75 (4)	1.6 (5)	0.4 (5)
Chelsea	0.5 (2)	0.75 (4)	1.4 (5)	1.8 (5)
Liverpool	0 (2)	3 (4)	1.2 (5)	0.5 (6)
Man City	0 (2)	1.75 (4)	0.8 (5)	1.67 (6)
Tottenham	0.5 (2)	1.75 (4)	1.2 (5)	2.17 (6)

and Pochettino's stats while just at Spurs and in the league (so not including Southampton)

Arsenal: 1.36 (11)
Chelsea: 1.4 (10)
Liverpool: 0.64 (11)
Man City: 1 (11)
Man Utd: 1.18 (10)

So Uniteds post Sir Alex average is:
Arsenal - 1.31 (16)
Chelsea - 1.25 (16)
Liverpool - 1.24 (17)
City - 1.24 (17)
Spurs - 1.59 (17)

Trying to take something from this.. Pochettino was not good at playing against Liverpool, City and United, decent enough against Arsenal, average against Chelsea. Just more "meh" to me. On average he had a worse record in big games than United did post Sir Alex, which hasn't exactly been an inspiring time for the club. Spurs' average level during Pochettinos time was definitely higher than Uniteds average level post Sir Alex. So essentially, worse big game results despite a better situation. Goes a long way to explaining never winning a trophy here.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Erm, no they didn't





Spurs even won the passing if that's your definition of playing a team off the park.

1st leg: Spurs 51 % 49 Ajax
2nd leg: Ajax 40 % 60 Spurs

What about the final against Liverpool?

 

[JPRouve]

So who's your coach of choice?

Currently ten Hag, not because I think that he is better than Pochettino but because I prefer his style and he hasn't given me the opportunity to think that he is the finished product.

 

[ti vu]

Misleading about net spend. Misleading about lower position, they may be lower that season but Athelti are not Spurs.

They won the Europa league and super cup before Simeone arrived at Madrid.

What kind of argument is this? I meant Spurs won League Cupn 2008. It's not even a decade before Poch arrived at Spurs. Then he failed to match that achievement.

Spurs made CL football under 'Arry Redknapp. Poch improved on that, but when he left, the state of the team would leave new managers on an uphill battle for top 4. Poch didn't change Spurs status at all. A CL final, but no longer having chance to have another shot at it is ultimately pointless.

 

[romufc]

Currently ten Hag, not because I think that he is better than Pochettino but because I prefer his style and he hasn't given me the opportunity to think that he is the finished product.

I am not opposed to either but for people who say Ten Hg then beat Poch makes no sense to me. The Dutch league is worse than the French league, he has not managed anywhere else apart from the dutch league.

You showed me Poch's record in CL, apart from a semi, Ajax have been knocked out from the groups.

Also, I am vary of his playing style because when he has played a PL team, his team has shown great naivety in defence, the high press does not work the same way in the PL.

 

[romufc]

What kind of argument is this? I meant Spurs won League Cupn 2008. It's not even a decade before Poch arrived at Spurs. Then he failed to match that achievement.

Spurs made CL football under 'Arry Redknapp. Poch improved on that, but when he left, the state of the team would leave new managers on an uphill battle for top 4. Poch didn't change Spurs status at all. A CL final, but no longer having chance to have another shot at it is ultimately pointless.

I mean Athletico won the Europa season before Simeone joined...

 

[Moriarty]

Isn't that linked to Busby being scouse?

About as scouse as Alex Ferguson...

 

[ti vu]

I mean Athletico won the Europa season before Simeone joined...

So what?

Simeone matched, improved, and established Atletico with higher status. Doing it once may be fluky. But doing twice each competition, Simeone had proven more than Poch until now.

Spurs is now in similar position to how they're pre Poch. Poch tenure may be better than they were in the previous decades, but ultimately Poch's time was just as pointless. No trophies. There is nothing to built upon once he left.

 

[romufc]

So what?

Simeone matched, improved, and established Atletico with higher status. Doing it once may be fluky. But doing twice each competition, Simeone had proven more than Poch until now.

Spurs is now in similar position to how they're pre Poch. Poch tenure may be better than they were in the previous decades, but ultimately Poch's time was just as pointless.

Yeah, what is your point?

I didn't say Simoeone is unproven or Poch is better unless I am misssing something.

Are you a Spurs fan? I would rather ask a Spurs fan if they think Poch's time was pointless, most will say it wasn't but okay, make up your own conclusions.

 

[JPRouve]

I am not opposed to either but for people who say Ten Hg then beat Poch makes no sense to me. The Dutch league is worse than the French league, he has not managed anywhere else apart from the dutch league.

You showed me Poch's record in CL, apart from a semi, Ajax have been knocked out from the groups.

Also, I am vary of his playing style because when he has played a PL team, his team has shown great naivety in defence, the high press does not work the same way in the PL.

I don't have the same expectations for Ajax and Spurs, with all the laughs and "It's only Spurs" jokes people seem to forget that they are significantly wealthier than Ajax, as I said ealier 2.5 times wealthier. Only one of these two teams lose key players every years which isn't a good thing when it comes to CL football.

And I'm perfectly aware of the risk with ten Hag, I don't consider that he is a sure thing or the messiah, it's clearly a gamble. But take it this way, Pochettino is a known quantity we roughly know where his ceiling is and it's not as high as United would want, on the other hand you have ten Hag who has shown that his own ceiling is around Pochettino's but we don't know if he can go higher because he hasn't been given the opportunity of managing a team that has a stable squad and twice the amount of money.

 

[Zen86]

I wasn't trying to sell you? I couldn't care less what a random person on the internet who I wasn't even speaking to thinks

Being in this thread arguing Poch’s case suggests otherwise

 

[JPRouve]

About as scouse as Alex Ferguson...

Not really, SAF didn't spend 9 years with Liverpool and I was joking.

 

[VP89]

Apparently it's Poch who's tired of the circus not the other way round.

Personally, I think he'll stay. Why would he leave when he can get a run at ucl with Messi, win a league at minimum and get a fat payoff at the end of it ?

Id reckon Messi would be a pain to manage to be fair.

 

[sullydnl]

I am not opposed to either but for people who say Ten Hg then beat Poch makes no sense to me. The Dutch league is worse than the French league, he has not managed anywhere else apart from the dutch league.

You showed me Poch's record in CL, apart from a semi, Ajax have been knocked out from the groups.

Also, I am vary of his playing style because when he has played a PL team, his team has shown great naivety in defence, the high press does not work the same way in the PL.

I'm interested in what you mean by this point, especially in comparison to Poch whose success at Spurs was based on his ability to implement an aggressive press. What is it about Ten Hag's press that is different to the high presses that have worked in the PL?

 

[romufc]

I don't have the same expectations for Ajax and Spurs, with all the laughs and "It's only Spurs" jokes people seem to forget that they are significantly wealthier than Ajax, as I said ealier 2.5 times wealthier. Only one of these two teams lose key players every years which isn't a good thing when it comes to CL football.

And I'm perfectly aware of the risk with ten Hag, I don't consider that he is a sure thing or the messiah, it's clearly a gamble. But take it this way, Pochettino is a known quantity we roughly know where his ceiling is and it's not as high as United would want, on the other hand you have ten Hag who has shown that his own ceiling is around Pochettino's but we don't know if he can go higher because he hasn't been given the opportunity of managing a team that has a stable squad and twice the amount of money.

I mean alot of PL clubs are wealthier than Ajax, that comes with being in the PL, the riches from the PL. That doesn't mean they are better, if you look at relative wealth to the league, then Spurs are weaker.

I am not saying Poch is Messiah either, they are both risks, we saw a former Ajax manager who won 3 Dutch titles in a row, come to Palace and get sacked instantly.

The PL is a different ball game.

 

[roonster09]

Simeone is at a club that has less money than Spurs and took them from a lower position. Also a thing that is misleading about Spurs net spend is that it's based on selling deadwood, outside of Walker they didn't lose players that were part of his plans.

Isn't his gross spend very low? Remember reading that long back.

 

[the_cliff]

I mean alot of PL clubs are wealthier than Ajax, that comes with being in the PL, the riches from the PL. That doesn't mean they are better, if you look at relative wealth to the league, then Spurs are weaker.

I am not saying Poch is Messiah either, they are both risks, we saw a former Ajax manager who won 3 Dutch titles in a row, come to Palace and get sacked instantly.

The PL is a different ball game.

Also people don't seem to realise the structure and academy that Ajax have in place. It's a constant conveyor belt of world class talent.

 

[TonyMUFC87]

Absolutely baffling all those who don’t want Pochettino. The fact he’s supposedly happy to leave PSG to sort out our mess should be enough to persuade people that he is the sort of guy we need.

 

[romufc]

I'm interested in what you mean by this point, especially in comparison to Poch whose success at Spurs was based on his ability to implement an aggressive press. What is it about Ten Hag's press that is different to the high presses that have worked in the PL?

Klopp, Pep, Hassenhutl, Poch all came to the PL trying to implement the high press, we seen loads of teams around Europe do this. Although for one of games, it works really well, its a method that can be undone easily.

All those managers in their first season has issues getting it right, we saw Pep and Klopp both change, its not the same gung ho press every game.

What I am trying to say is, will United fans / board give Ten Hag the time to make defensive mistakes? Considering the players we have, a high press / line could be suicidal for the manager.

 

[the_cliff]

Id reckon Messi would be a pain to manage to be fair.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/c...homas-tuchel-details-his-strange-life-in-psg/

Tuchel on the PSG job:

I imagine it's only got worse since Messi and Ramos joined.

 

[JPRouve]

I mean alot of PL clubs are wealthier than Ajax, that comes with being in the PL, the riches from the PL. That doesn't mean they are better, if you look at relative wealth to the league, then Spurs are weaker.

I am not saying Poch is Messiah either, they are both risks, we saw a former Ajax manager who won 3 Dutch titles in a row, come to Palace and get sacked instantly.

The PL is a different ball game.

But you mentioned CL expectations, surely you realize that being wealthier means that you have a better ability to keep players and that you have a larger pool of players to take from and in this case it includes Tottenham purchasing Ajax players such as Eriksen.

If we take the CL as a barometer where both teams are in competition Tottenham are higher in the pecking order than Ajax for the simple reason that one is wealthier than the other. One can purchase better, more expensive players than the other.

 

[ti vu]

Yeah, what is your point?

I didn't say Simoeone is unproven or Poch is better unless I am misssing something.

Are you a Spurs fan? I would rather ask a Spurs fan if they think Poch's time was pointless, most will say it wasn't but okay, make up your own conclusions.

I made my point about Poch time being pointless. You even see to that, but pretend not to...

Straw lurching at its finest. Not being a Spurs fan, doesn't mean you can have opinion on their team. Also being a Spurs fan balled deep in romanticism, doesn't make that opinion right. If you can only opinionize about your team, why are you discussing managers of other clubs right now? So your opinion is also useless air?

It's Okay to agree to disagree. Let's not pretend to run away from what you implied about Simeone inherited a better Atletico than what Poch inherited at Spurs.

 

[Jibbs]

This club always goes for the story over substance. Poch? Might be because they see him as a long term manager. He wouldn't even survive 2 seasons here given his personality.

We could simply hire an interim and wait for good managers to become available. What was the board doing during past few months when the writing was on the wall for Ole? Look at City for comparison, they knew they'll have Pep years before he came, and they know he'll be replaced soon in advance. They surely must be doing their homework on the replacement.

What does our board exactly do.

Mark my words they will appoint Ten Hag in 2023 as soon as Pep's contract expires. Unless Pep changes his mind and sign another long term contract.

 

[unplayable]