Bit of a shame we let go of him so early but he was a shadow of himself here.
Memphis Depay | Atletico player
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His preference for winning the Bodybuilding League over the Premier League did not help him but even without that he was a step off the pace in the league. Even if he had been quicker off the mark and more agile, he just wasn't that good technically. He has skill but he couldn't keep up with the intensity of this league and the lack of time to think and act.
We saw he was still very capable in the Europa against weaker opposition, which is basically what he's been doing in France and what La Liga is currently busy becoming. A leaner Memphis is a better player than we had but its still not enough for a top PL team.
We saw he was still very capable in the Europa against weaker opposition, which is basically what he's been doing in France and what La Liga is currently busy becoming. A leaner Memphis is a better player than we had but its still not enough for a top PL team.
We were right to let him go, he would have never become the player he has become here. What we should have done is buy him back last year and either use him or sell him for a profit.
This is what Chelsea, Real and City do all the time.
This is what Chelsea, Real and City do all the time.
Depay is a very good creative passer as well.
He's done quite well in the CL and for his national team as well, is it really that only the PL is this super tempo nothing can compare to it league or maybe also the fact that he wasnt very good at that time, he was nowhere near as good as for Holland as he is now.
England and English teams should be winning each and every thing in the way the PL is spoken of for years, not just the past few years.
No, i fully realize. I was saying for an athlete at his level it's not that difficult to gain an extra 5kilos of muscle
Yeah, i don't trust online sources for player weights. They are notoriously unreliable
Bolded is the crux of the argument: that is what he always lacked and that is why he could never be a great north-south dribbler in the PL.
Bulking out too much in an aerobic sport like football would generally lead to too much strain on the body, which in turn would lead to injuries
Player heights and weights are, again, notoriously unreliable, but fine. Even assuming he does weight 7 kilos less, guess what - he's still not explosive enough to be a dangerous direct dribbler
That was the long and short of it. Every time he had the ball it was like he was frozen to the spot and you could almost see his mind ticking over about what to do next. You don't get that type of time in the PL (or many other leagues).
A standing vertical jump is a much better measure of 'explosiveness' (Power production) than a 100 meter sprint. Because there is nothing to push against after you leave the ground, unlike in a run when you can keep producing force for ~10s. It's a very valuable measurement in a lot of sports, including the NFL, precisely because it cannot be trained. Advertising for vertical jump improvements are like those you get to train your eyes so you don't have to wear glasses. The only time someone has improved his vertical jump more than 1 or 2 inches is on the internet.
The notion that it's "one of the most trainable physical tests" is laughable. There are no verified cases of healthy people adding 10cms to their vertical jump, while it's normal for a healthy person to, I don't know, shave hours of their marathon or quadruple their squat. If you think there's no other metabolic effects going on in a 100m sprint and that it's a better measure of the recruitment of %fast twitch fibers than a SVJ, I question your understanding of 'human anatomy'. Ironically, one of the best ways to try and increase power production is by getting stronger (force production). It's not about anatomy, it's about physics:
P = W/t
W = F * s (s = distance)
P = (F*s)/t
This notion that added muscle mass makes you slower just needs to die. Over 90mins it might not be beneficial for a footballer for a number of reasons, but adding 5kgs of muscle does not make them less explosive. Explosiveness by and large is genetic. Dan James would still outsprint everyone reading this if he were a couch potato.
Just look at this lifter's jump after having clean and pressed 228kgs at 5'8 and 309lbs:
It is true that the tempo and intensity of the PL is higher than any other league. Every player or manager who has come here talks about it. That doesn't necessarily translate to quality, but it does mean there is less time to think and act than in other leagues. Players have to be quick thinking and aggressive in their playing style. Memphis was, and for my eyes still is, neither.
I am not disputing this apart from your last bit. However he was slower at the time and played in a completely different role as well. A few matches against Europa League fodder doesnt prove that it was because of his speed of thought that he was rubbish in the PL.
The guy was never a winger to begin with and was a wide forward at best, who has now been transitioned into a Centre Forward and has gotten more agile and quick since then. The last time he played central under LvG he showed promise.
Memphis Depay is definitely good enough to play for a top PL side at the moment. It’s actually laughable to think otherwise.
This is side-tracking massively but again the above is incorrect. I also don't really get what your obsession is with the vertical jump - DPJ has the record in NFL by some distance and yet he's not the fastest in the 40m dash and it's a completely different sport as well where extra weight is not as detrimental given it's much more stop start. Also that jump is really average (is this a wind up?
if so well played.) go look at some NBA players doing box/vert jumps and then look at their body mass ratio compared to that lifter aboveIt's harder for professional athletes to add muscle though. You or I could probably add that in 6 months (assuming you are not a professional athlete lurking on redcaf) but for a professional athlete who is already somewhat optimised (and having to watch their diet, play football every day and travel al lot) it would be near impossible even in a year without juicing.
But the source is the football club's own website, surely that's as accurate as you can realistically get?
re bulking out, I'm assuming he wasn't just doing bench and dips and was focused on lower body and core i.e. stabilising the knee
In the PL no, as I already agreed he was never super rapid, but he was fast enough to be dangerous for us and to be a success had he come here maybe a bit later once he's matured. He would suit City's system really well for example and wouldn't need to be out and out rapid - having said that La Liga for me has really regressed these last few years so it's hard to say if it would really be that good if he came back to the PL (this is from 2020 and the difference is stark) but I'm pleased to see him doing well and playing for a massive club again. Always liked him.
If you casually think about it this way, probably you're right. But there's also the argument that the league campaign wears down English teams and hinders them in their European matches.
Additionally, an individual coming into the league would find it much harder to play at a high tempo that his opponents, and crucially, his own team mates play. He'd be having to adjust to both his opponents and his own team. A player playing in a continental side in Europe against Premier League opponents would have his own team mates backing him up and working with him to counter the pace a Premier League team would like to play at.
You seem to have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Quick Poll: Is Depay now better than Marcus Rashford? Has he surpassed him in the football world?
I just wrote a whole paragraph on why the SVJ is a superior measure of explosiveness than a sprint. The power production in a sprint isn't instantaneous. You understand there's nothing to produce force against once you're off the ground, right? Beating a man, something Memphis was unable to do at United involves rapid acceleration more similar to the power production used in a SVJ than an actual sprint. Why do you the NFL measures SJVs, jumping from a stand still is useful in American football? There's other metabolic effects in a sprint than recruiting as much fast twitch fibers as possible within a short time frame.
Sorry, your single example of 1 guy having the fastest SJV but not the 40yard dash is utterly moronic. You're aware these are not identical endeavors? There's plenty of studies that show a positive correlation between SJVs and sprint speeds.
You're the one that thinks 5kg of muscle mass makes someone less explosive, that man has 45kgs on Memphis, he should barely get off the ground by your logic. That's actually a very good jump for someone jumping straight-legged, which I'd assume you would have noticed with your brilliant anatomical knowledge.Also that jump is really average (is this a wind up?
Way to miss the point. Training the SVJ to become more explosiveness is like training the IQ test to get smarter.
Your vertical jump is essentially a power to weight ratio. How does it improve when it actually does? By increasing power production or reducing your weight, the latter of which is near impossible to do for a ~11% bf trained athlete.
What is power? Something, something with force in it. Which means getting stronger. A trained individual getting significantly stronger without adding muscle mass? Now that's tough as nails. There's a reason why trained lifters don't add significant amount of strength without going up a weight class. The time component of power production is largely dependent on the %of fast twitch fibers ie genetics.
So to get back to the 1 and 2 inch increase, the SVJ will only go up by getting stronger or losing a ton of fat, for a person that has the basic technique 95% down.
Increasing your muscle mass through strength (force production) training by adding 5% of your overall weight, like Memphis did, is not going to significantly affect your SVJ. His 5kg mass gain and him looking slow to those not following the Eredivsie are unrelated. It's so much easier to beat Blind and Viergever on pace than it is to beat Smalling and Jones. It's that simple. He never had elite levels of pace, and still does not.
None of us become slower if we add 5kgs of muscle mass through strength training, and neither did the elite sprinters at the olympics when they broke records after they'd gotten more muscular and everyone said they were doping.
I genuinely, and I mean this in as neutral a way as possible, think you’ve lost the plot pal.
Memphis did beat players he just wasn’t rapid like a Mbappe or Mane - my sole point is that adding 5kgs of muscle onto his frame was overkill and would have been detrimental to his game. If his job was to run from a pair of blocks in a straight line, it might have been helpful but for his reaction time, acceleration, agility etc on a football pitch it was not. I genuinely don’t see what you’re struggling with here.
Of course there’s a correlation, when has that ever been in doubt. Your logic is the more muscle the more explosive but that’s not the case. I already corrected you about ftmf and on multiple points but feel free to keep talking about vertical jumps.
It might be hard for a 30 year old who has fully grown into his body and optimized his muscle mass
Not so for a still growing 20 year old
The argument here is that in the PL, he was often asked to isolate on the wing, take the FB on, beat him, and run at the defence. While he could do that in the eredivisie to some success, that was because of the quality of atheletes he came up against. In the PL, or indeed any top league, he never could play like that because he was never explosive enough for it. He could get a meter of separation with his first move, but then he'd lose it within the next two steps because he lacked the top end acceleration to keep the defender behind him. Even now, if he was asked to do that at barcelona, he'd fail. And he knows it, too, which is why he developed a different skillset
He'd suit any side, so long as he's played as a false 9 or creative support striker, asked to play with his back to goal and use his bottomless bag of flicks, tricks, lofted passes and shooting near the box for quick combinations, through balls and goals
He can't do what Sterling, Bernardo Silva or Mahrez do
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I genuinely, and I mean this in as neutral a way as possible, think you’ve lost the plot pal.
Nothing wrong with saying you don't understand physics.
Memphis did beat players he just wasn’t rapid like a Mbappe or Mane -
He didn't beat fast defenders on pace, and still doesn't.
my sole point is that adding 5kgs of muscle onto his frame was overkill and would have been detrimental to his game.
Which is the topic of our conversation and like I've pointed out is nonsense.
If his job was to run from a pair of blocks in a straight line, it might have been helpful but for his reaction time, acceleration, agility etc on a football pitch it was not. I genuinely don’t see what you’re struggling with here.
Yes my point exactly, his 5kgs did feck all to make him slower. The bolded is cute, because you're actually arguing here it could have made him more explosive if you understood basic physics. I never said the 5kg was helpful in other areas.
Of course there’s a correlation, when has that ever been in doubt.
So why then did you bring up one NFL dude with the highest vertical jump not being the fastest sprinter? You did it to argue the oppossite of what you're admitting now
Your logic is the more muscle the more explosive but that’s not the case.
By his own admission (which is just as reliable as the club's info) Memphis was always working on his starting speed. You don't think he and the club would've noticed it made him slower? It was a Telegraaf interview if you want to look it up.
I already corrected you about ftmf and on multiple points but feel free to keep talking about vertical jumps.
I was "corrected" by someone who thinks 5kgs of extra muscle mass could improve one's acceleration, yet is arguing it makes them slower at the same time
I do feel you keep ignoring any sources I provide, I have direct quotes from Depay and from Barca's website to demonstrate that he is 7kgs lighter now. On your first point you should refer to Alan Aragon model for muscle growth - even at the biggest end of the advanced scale he couldn't do that within a year. You are correct that at 21 Depay was in his prime for adding muscle but there is a natural limit and 5kgs is a huge amount of pure muscle to build for an 80kg person. When you bear in mind that would have been him not playing football at all but just gyming for a year hopefully you see now how much muscle that is.
I'd wager he is similar speed to Bernardo but again, his role was never in doubt or debated, you said him bulking up wasn't an issue but the more I think about it, the more you should agree with me. If he wasn't rapid to begin with but was decently fast (I assume you agree here) and already quite built, adding that % of muscle onto his frame will not help at all on the football pitch.
@VanDeBank Ironically, if you understood basic physics, physiology and read posts fully I wouldn't be wasting my time with you. How many times do I need to correct you before I assume you don't know what you're talking about and give up.
However many times you like, because a guy that that admits SVJs and sprint speeds are positively correlated, yet uses one anecdotal case to argue it's not one post earlier, is hilarious:
Don't worry I'm not gonna repeat anything I've said. You keep on believing the youtube guy that says SVJs is highly trainable contrary to the way the NFL uses the test and there not being a single verified case of this happening.
Being strong makes you slower. Big muscles more weight. Physics formulas that show a relationship between power and force production aren't relevant. Got it.
That's what he was doing at PSV, though. I remember @NL Max - Memphis' biggest fan - joining the site to tell us what to expect of him and he was basically Ronaldo 2.0
That's me and Grealish. Both in terms of how similar he is to Totti and how I can't enjoy watching him play. Well, except for England now that Southgate has seemingly realised his importance to our team.Btw, he might be the closest thing i've seen to Francesco Totti in terms of skillset and playing style
.....I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY HATE that I can't even enjoy watching him play
Right now, yeah. Memphis' last season was better than Rashford's, I'd say. They're both pretty similar levels, though, and Rashford has about 3 years or so on him.
Look how he performs against the top teams. Many of these games took place whilst he was in France and supposedly a top player. We will see if it changes with Barcelona but there's nothing here to suggest there's a world class forward in there.
PSG - 1 goal in 9 games
Ajax - 1 in 7
Liverpool - 0 in 3
City - 0 in 3
Barca - 0 in 2
Bayern - 0 in 1
Juventus - 1 in 1
Milan (pushing it) - 0 in 2
Chelsea - 0 in 2
Spurs - 0 in 2
Arsenal - 0 in 2
France - 1 in 5
Portgual - 2 in 3
Spain - 0 in 2
England - 0 in 3
Belgium - 0 in 2
Italy - 0 in 3
Germany - 2 in 4
I beg you please read + digest the posts before responding.
I'm sorry but this is the last time I can correct you, I'm now half convinced you are on a wind up:
The Physics of the Vertical Jump - Force, Speed, Height, Hangtime & Co (thehoopsgeek.com) - read this (actually read it to the end w the Qs)
There are countless articles, videos, books etc on how to improve your vert jump. Question the sources all you want but I can't stress how common this is after a quick google search (or by just understanding basic physiology)
7 Ways to Improve Your Vertical Jump | Men's Journal (mensjournal.com)
How to Gain 5 Inches of Vertical Jump in 3 Weeks (simplifaster.com)
5 Factors Affecting Vertical Jump (slideshare.net)
Ask The Ripped Dude: How Can I Improve My Vertical Jump? (bodybuilding.com)
The only way you would be right is if every single person on the globe was as fit as they could possibly be according to their genetics and then all took a vert test. Then you would be correct. As misinformed as you seem, I'm hopeful this at last might sink in.
Re the physics formula part, now I understand your issue, you genuinely are missing half of Newton's 2nd law of motion. I am no means a science guy but that is as GCSE as it gets. I bid you good day and, hopefully, goodbye.
Well this is really one way to look at a player, I think quite a poor one whilst being at it. Messi should be no where near Ballon d'Or talks if we looked at his previous seasons like this.
However include assists and remove the matches during his United stint where we all know that he was awful and this list becomes much better. Especially when you think of the bench mark that we're comparing it to. There aren't an awful lot of players that then do it much better, as yeah, typically, players don't reach the same numbers vs top teams.
Depay a Centre Forward, in his younger years up until his second season at Lyon, a Wide Forward, generating these statistics doesnt say much.
I must say that his record vs Ajax and PSG are indeed very poor.
It's weird how much players are scoring now. I guess there are more international matches and that different styles favour certain player roles for scoring roles...? I don't mean to say Memphis is bad, but to be into the historical top 10 already at this age is quite striking.
More matches and also more matches against fodder. But still, the likes of Memphis and Lukaku have been on fire more than most other European forwards which is a big credit to them.
Heh?
Madrid - 26 in 45
Atletico - 32 in 43
PSG - 6 in 10
Chelsea - 3 in 10
Milan - 8 in 8
Juve - 3 in 7
Arsenal - 9 in 6 (
)City - 6 in 6
Bayern - 4 in 6
Us - 4 in 6
And so on. Totally overrated.
As for Depay, you can exclude his United stint if you like.
City - 0 in 3
Barcelona - 0 in 2
PSG - 1 in 9
Ajax - 1 in 7
You see where i'm going with this? I'm afraid he's just not that good...
You didnt include assists and now for some reason excluded his performances for national teams.Heh?
Madrid - 26 in 45
Atletico - 32 in 43
PSG - 6 in 10
Chelsea - 3 in 10
Milan - 8 in 8
Juve - 3 in 7
Arsenal - 9 in 6 (
City - 6 in 6
Bayern - 4 in 6
Us - 4 in 6
And so on. Totally overrated.
As for Depay, you can exclude his United stint if you like.
City - 0 in 3
Barcelona - 0 in 2
PSG - 1 in 9
Ajax - 1 in 7
You see where i'm going with this? I'm afraid he's just not that good...
Also with Messi I meant just the previous two seasons, not his overall career which is ofcourse fantastic.
Same for someone like Bruno by the way.
seriously, it’s incredible how moronic some of the takes on this board can be.
Nothing in this essay backs up your insane claim that it's essentially impossible to significantly improve a person's vertical jump.
Somehow its illegal here on the Caf to use these kind of stats when arguing whether Bruno is World Class or not..Heh?
Madrid - 26 in 45
Atletico - 32 in 43
PSG - 6 in 10
Chelsea - 3 in 10
Milan - 8 in 8
Juve - 3 in 7
Arsenal - 9 in 6 (
City - 6 in 6
Bayern - 4 in 6
Us - 4 in 6
And so on. Totally overrated.
As for Depay, you can exclude his United stint if you like.
City - 0 in 3
Barcelona - 0 in 2
PSG - 1 in 9
Ajax - 1 in 7
You see where i'm going with this? I'm afraid he's just not that good...
I would be curious by the way if you include assists and his record for the national team, as he did quite well (in my recollection) for NL againt bigger teams like Portugal, Italy, France and Germany.
But anyhow... I dont think anyone here is stating Depay is World Class based on past performances, as he hasn't produces world class performances yet on the very highest levels (top competition, cl later stages, international tournament), but people looking at his current performances both at NL and Barcelona in this early season so far can only agree what he is showing now is up there with the very best.. Whether he will be considered World Class or not will depend on how he will be able to keep up this form and how he will do against the bigger teams in the more important matches.. But from the looks of it now, the stars seems to be aligning for Memphis so far this season and the signs are there that he has matured into a player who will be able to keep this up.
How are you establishing what is a "top team."
Yes. And it worked because he was up against inferior athletes. Hence once he moved up in level, his lack of elite explosiveness forced him to completely change his game
Think it's almost entirely as AjaxCunian said. Cruijff did it in 23 less matches than Memphis. On the other hand, Ruud only scored 2 more than Memphis in the same amount of games. Goals to games the best recent player is Huntelaar with 42 in 76 games and the best overal, though not a huge sample size, the late and great Beb Bakhuys with 28 goals in 23 games
Honourable mention to Kirk Duyt with a 16th place and respectable 24 goals in 17025 games at all thinkable positions.
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Only gullible want-to-be athletes believe that shite, because of how important the test is for measuring power production in US sports. a 16y old athlete will indeed improve his SVJ by the time he's 18, because he got stronger, not because he jumped every day without resistance.
Nothing in this post backs up your claim that is possible to significantly improve one's standing vertical jump given that the people involved:
- Aren't fatties
- Are fully grown adults (19 -> 21y athlete that's been lifting like crazy doesn't count)
- They have some experience lifting (~3 months) as to have exhausted most of the increase in neuromuscular efficiency one gains by starting strength training
- Have spent a 1 or 2 hours being taught the basics of the technique to maximize it (which is as pointless as training for the IQ test)
Ironically the best way to add that little 1-2 inches to your vertical would be the put some weight on the barbell and increase your power clean (which again is literally a test for power production), but that would require eating and adding pesky muscles that make you "slow".
Exactly my point. 5 kilos of muscle does not slow someone down. Guys in the NFL are genetic freaks. That's why they could have been a couch potato their entire life and still jump higher than 99% of anyone reading this could.
Try telling that to NBA and American football players.
This. Beating Blind on pace is easier than beating Ake. One has elite levels of eplosiveness, the other doesn't.
It actually says a lot all that the Dutch kids the top English clubs are buying are extremely fast. Ake, Malen, Chong. It's almost like they are selecting based on explosiveness
Or the English are using secret special plyometric training methods from bodybuilding.com unavailable to Ajax and PSV that made the aforementioned players faster than Blind and Memphis.
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Only gullible want-to-be athletes believe that shite, because of how important the test is for measuring power production in US sports. a 16y old athlete will indeed improve his SVJ by the time he's 18, because he got stronger, not because he jumped every day without resistance.
Nothing in this post backs up your claim that is possible to significantly improve one's standing vertical jump given that the people involved:
Show me a well documented case, preferably that meets the above conditions, because even I can add 6 inches to someone's SVJ if they're a 200kg whale or a 15y old that triples his deadlift within 5 years, or an unathletic person that doesn't know how to use his body to jump.
- Aren't fatties
- Are fully grown adults (19 -> 21y athlete that's been lifting like crazy doesn't count)
- They have some experience lifting (~3 months) as to have exhausted most of the increase in neuromuscular efficiency one gains by starting strength training
- Have spent a 1 or 2 hours being taught the basics of the technique to maximize it (which is as pointless as training for the IQ test)
Ironically the best way to add that little 1-2 inches to your vertical would be the put some weight on the barbell and increase your power clean (which again is literally a test for power production), but that would require eating and adding pesky muscles that make you "slow".
Exactly my point. 5 kilos of muscle does not slow someone down. Guys in the NFL are genetic freaks. That's why they could have been a couch potato their entire life and still jump higher than 99% of anyone reading this could.
This. Beating Blind on pace is easier than beating Ake. One has elite levels of eplosiveness, the other doesn't.
It actually says a lot all that the Dutch kids the top English clubs are buying are extremely fast. Ake, Malen, Chong. It's almost like they are selecting based on explosiveness
Or the English are using secret special plyometric training methods from bodybuilding.com unavailable to Ajax and PSV that made the aforementioned players faster than Blind and Memphis.
I was expecting you to link me some YouTube channel of a guy that says he added 6 inches to his vertical, whilst selling an "increase your SVJ program" with testimonials from people that added 4 inches to their vertical between the ages of 17 and 19, or after losing 60lbs of fat.
How dare I question the the sources of a guy that links to "bodybuilding.com", "hoopsgeeks" and "men's journal"? There have been "books" written on it as well! I never denied people have added 6 inches to their SVJ, just that it only happens on the internet, which is were you happen to be.