Mentality vs Talent - What's more important in a signing?

altodevil

Odds winner of 'Odds or Evens 2023/2024'
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We've got so many players that seem to stroll through games, don’t track back, and show no urgency when we’re losing. It's been one of the bigger problems with this United team over the last decade that isn't just tactics or injuries. It’s hard not to think about how far we’ve drifted from what SAF built his teams on.

Fergie once said: "I've always felt the most important thing to success was work ethic. The most talented people can be disappointing if they don't have a work ethic about them."

He's also mentioned in the past about how he looked into a player's background to understand what shaped their character. He'd favour players from working-class roots who knew the value of hard graft. He didn’t just want talent; he wanted professionals who would run through walls for the club.

Now, ask yourself: how many of our current players would pass that test? Bruno? Who else?

Do we have too many ‘Instagram footballers’ who don't want to put in the graft?

Am I thinking too much into this? Are our signings just predominately shit players?

Would you rather a 7/10 talent who gives 100%, or a 9/10 talent who jogs around when we’re 1–0 down?

It feels like this summer, with the big clear-out looming, is a chance to reset the overall club mentality. Is it worth doing at the expense of raw ability/talent?
 
Quick, add a poll with just two options before you get everyone dodging the question by saying you need both.

So if the two players are exactly equal in all respects but one has league-standard mentality and well-above-league-standard technical ability and the other has league-standard technical ability but well-above-league-standard mentality, then I'd go with the mentality monster.

I'd argue that they'd be more likely to improve, be more likely to help foster a team spirit, and be more likely to rise to the big occasion.
 
Neville always said he had work ethic without anywhere near the talent of others. I would be inclined to agree. Talent can only take you so far unless they are the one in a billion Messi, Ronadlinho, Maradona, Best....
 
Talent means nothing without application.

You need a certain amount of both in any signing, but if one is going to outweigh the other then it should be mentality every time.
 
A team made of players 7/10 talent-wise with 10/10 mentality will get very far both in the league and cups. Tbf, I've always thought this is what Fergie used to base his decision making mostly off of when signing players (simiar to Atletico/Simeone?)
 
Wasn't Ronaldinho rumored to be a lazy bastard on the training ground? I would argue that he is at least a top 20 player of all time. And he played during a highly competitive and athletic era too.

I think talent is more important if you want to become one of the greatest players of all time. But to become a regular professional I think mentality/work ethic is more important. You still need talent though.
 
I was listening to Theiry Henry on the Overlap today and he said that hardwork is part of Talent and I agree.

I would rather a än average player with the right mentality than a talented player with the wrong mentality. The former can be a source of Motivation to the Teamamd the latter can be a source of demotivation
 
Right now mentality is what we lack most. And have done for years. Of course you also need a bit of talent but if you don't have the mentality and work ethic to apply that talent every day then you're not going to be elite. I think if your team consists of 10/10 talented players who've got a 5/10 mentality then you're going to see very inconsistent performances. If it's the other way around the highs will be much lower but the lows will be much higher.
 
Scandi Red said:
Wasn't Ronaldinho rumored to be a lazy bastard on the training ground? I would argue that he is at least a top 20 player of all time. And he played during a highly competitive and athletic era too.

I think talent is more important if you want to become one of the greatest players of all time. But to become a regular professional I think mentality/work ethic is more important. You still need talent though.
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Yepp, that would be my take as well. Hard work can get you pretty high, but you need talent because there isn't enough time in the day to work hard enough to equal levels where more talented players are without that grind.
 
Scandi Red said:
Wasn't Ronaldinho rumored to be a lazy bastard on the training ground? I would argue that he is at least a top 20 player of all time. And he played during a highly competitive and athletic era too.

I think talent is more important if you want to become one of the greatest players of all time. But to become a regular professional I think mentality/work ethic is more important. You still need talent though.
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For all the quality Ronaldinho had, his peak was very short for a player of his class.

A little more dedication might have seen him stretch his spell as the best player on the planet to a few more years and he’d be considered higher on the list of all time players than he was.

Neymar is an even better example. A world class talent who never truly hit the heights he promised to because he couldn’t get out of his own way.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a top 5 player of all time and never had anything like the god given talent Ronaldinho or Neymar had.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Right now mentality is what we lack most. And have done for years. Of course you also need a bit of talent but if you don't have the mentality and work ethic to apply that talent every day then you're not going to be elite. I think if your team consists of 10/10 talented players who've got a 5/10 mentality then you're going to see very inconsistent performances. If it's the other way around the highs will be much lower but the lows will be much higher.
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In respect to our current situation, I agree 100%.
 
Effort always trumps talent, when talent is all you've got!! The fact this is even a discussion in the game is laughable given the money players earn but to be expected when they've all been gifted stuff on a plate since such a young age.

We've got hardly any players who would leave it all on the pitch like we used to have. The likes of Rooney, Keane, Tevez, Park, Butt, Vidic are light years away from the current batch. We've basically got half a squad of Jesper Blomqvist's and Jessie Lingard's.
 
Scandi Red said:
Wasn't Ronaldinho rumored to be a lazy bastard on the training ground? I would argue that he is at least a top 20 player of all time. And he played during a highly competitive and athletic era too.

I think talent is more important if you want to become one of the greatest players of all time. But to become a regular professional I think mentality/work ethic is more important. You still need talent though.
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I'd also argue that Ronaldinho became one of the top 20 of all time because he was able to play the role of the luxury player and had others in the side who did the work for him. A few other players with his workrate in the same team and Barca would've struggled massively.
 
It needs to be said that we do not know them, we don't know how they are on a daily basis, we don't know about about their work ethic or their mentality outside of biased takes based on whether we like or dislikes things that they have done on the pitch lately.

As for the question it depends on their actual mentality/personality, you generally need a mix across the entire squad. I don't remember which manager explained it(I believe that it was SAF but I'm not sure), whithin a group 20+ adults in a competitive setting you need a range of personalities, some are easily angered by failure some are depressed, others are motivated by it. Some have balanced personalities, others are jokers but care, some are jokers and care about nothing, some have a very strong work ethic others are a bit lazy.

The reason you need this mix is because the overall mood of the team at any given time needs to be balanced, you don't want a squad that is careless, you don't want a squad that is always angry or sadened by losses or cocky, you don't want your squad to overwork itself for 9 months straight, they need to accept some "lazy" periods where rest is more important than hard work. You want to have personalities that can put a smile on their teammates in more difficult periods but you also want personalities that can inspire and refocus everyone, you also want buffers.
 
diarm said:
For all the quality Ronaldinho had, his peak was very short for a player of his class.

A little more dedication might have seen him stretch his spell as the best player on the planet to a few more years and he’d be considered higher on the list of all time players than he was.

Neymar is an even better example. A world class talent who never truly hit the heights he promised to because he couldn’t get out of his own way.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a top 5 player of all time and never had anything like the god given talent Ronaldinho or Neymar had.
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I'm not contesting that work-rate is important or that Ronaldinho wouldn't have benefited from having a better work ethic. But if you put a gun to my head and force me to choose between talent and mentality then I would always pick talent if the end-goal is greatness.

Think of it this way: average work-rate + supreme talent vs average talent + supreme work-rate. The former will always win at the top.

And Ronaldinho proves that you can become one of the GOATs even with poor work-rate! But can you find a top 20 all-time player with below average talent? Hell, even average talent is arguably not present on that list. C. Ronaldo is probably the greatest example of supreme work-ethic, but you could argue that he was also quite talented (even among other top footballers).

All that being said, I also agree with the other example above (a team with 7/10 talent and 10/10 mentality will do better than the opposite). But notice in that example that 7/10 still is quite good!
 
Bruno has both mentality and talent, that is a really rare feat.
Probably form a 22 man squad you need 3-4 players with both mentality and talent, 2-3 only talent and the rest if they have a strong mentality you can make a good case for a strong squad.
 
fergiewherearethou said:
Bruno has both mentality and talent, that is a really rare feat.
Probably form a 22 man squad you need 3-4 players with both mentality and talent, 2-3 only talent and the rest if they have a strong mentality you can make a good case for a strong squad.
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Mentality covers a whole spectrum of areas. Bruno's workrate and dedication are beyond question, but I wouldn't say his composure or emotional intelligence are anything too special. In big games in particular, his penchant for getting worked up into a frenzy definitely has a negative impact on his performance and how accurate he can be with his talent.
 
Talent is more important, by far. You will see players make it to the top (let's say playing in top 5 league) with a work ethic below the average person, the idea of someone making it to the top of football with football talent below the average person is patently ridiculous. The talent required to be a top player is much rarer than the work ethic.
 
If talent is irrelevant then sign me up. I'm happy to be the lowest paid player in the squad and I'll give absolutely everything I've got in every game so it doesn't matter that I can't kick a ball straight to save my life.
 
“Mentality beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.”

While the issue starts with mentality, talent or lack thereof is a huge factor. All the changes the club has gone through have shaped how the squad responds. They have had 9 different set of instructions in about 11 years, sprinkled with a culture and narrative that the club is a breeding ground for greed, instability and unaccountability, from the top down.

As for talent, the squad has not been stitched up accordingly. We still have players from the various failed tenures, players that aren’t good enough (or ready) to wear the shirt, players that came solely for the money, all the while imbalanced units all across (a strong core has never been in place).

Don’t believe INEOS is going about this the right way, but it could take a change in fortunes to unlock these players’ potential, all the while recruitment shapes up the areas of need. A true rebuild was necessary, but it was never possible. Now you add the club’s financial turmoil, and it all becomes increasingly difficult to get over the hill.

Let’s hope Amorim can unlock the mentality and squeeze the most out of this squad. If he gets some results, alongside better recruitment, we’ll be on our way back to being a wining club. But even Amorim himself does not endear confidence he’d be the man to lead this squad. Lather, rinse and repeat.
 
The answer is you need both. But if we absolutely had to choose the answer is talent. Give me a Paul Pogba every time over a Scott Mctominay. Talent can’t be taught, whereas mentality can improve with age, coaching, environment to some degree.
 
If we take talent to mean "the highest level at which a player can perform" then I think we have to accept that the talent ceilings of many players are actually very close.

With that in mind, I'd then argue that "mentality" is the difference maker when it comes to consistency of performance and that then determines the overall perceived ability of a player.

You can probably argue that there's an element of "talent" involved there, as concentration and decision making ability can also cause inconsistency without necessarily being tied to "mentality", but I think a player with a good mentality sees their performance less affected by, for example, conceding a goal, making a mistake, losing a game, etc.

In the context of Manchester United's immediate future, mentality is far more important.
 
Turnip said:
If talent is irrelevant then sign me up. I'm happy to be the lowest paid player in the squad and I'll give absolutely everything I've got in every game so it doesn't matter that I can't kick a ball straight to save my life.
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I don't think there is anybody who thinks talent is irrelevant. I'm not sure where you got that idea?

The question is "which is more important".
 
Scandi Red said:
I'm not contesting that work-rate is important or that Ronaldinho wouldn't have benefited from having a better work ethic. But if you put a gun to my head and force me to choose between talent and mentality then I would always pick talent if the end-goal is greatness.

Think of it this way: average work-rate + supreme talent vs average talent + supreme work-rate. The former will always win at the top.

And Ronaldinho proves that you can become one of the GOATs even with poor work-rate! But can you find a top 20 all-time player with below average talent? Hell, even average talent is arguably not present on that list. C. Ronaldo is probably the greatest example of supreme work-ethic, but you could argue that he was also quite talented (even among other top footballers).

All that being said, I also agree with the other example above (a team with 7/10 talent and 10/10 mentality will do better than the opposite). But notice in that example that 7/10 still is quite good!
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I agree with you post aside from the final paragraph. A team of 10/10 talent players is a team of Messi’s or players with that ability. No team no matter how switched on will beat that. Talent is always the winner, it just makes people feel good to pretend mentality can bridge that gap. Where mentality plays a bigger role is understanding players that are similarly talented and then it does go some way to bridging the gap.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
I agree with you post aside from the final paragraph. A team of 10/10 talent players is a team of Messi’s or players with that ability. No team no matter how switched on will beat that. Talent is always the winner, it just makes people feel good to pretend mentality can bridge that gap. Where mentality plays a bigger role is understanding players that are similarly talented and then it does go some way to bridging the gap.
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But Messi had elite mentality as well. Even Ronaldinho had a good mentality for the period he was at his peak - when his mentality dropped that talent began to fall away dramatically.

For a player with lower tier mentality and elite talent, you are looking at the Ravel Morrison, Balotelli, Denilson types. A team full of them isn't beating a team full of James Milners.
 
diarm said:
But Messi had elite mentality as well. Even Ronaldinho had a good mentality for the period he was at his peak - when his mentality dropped that talent began to fall away dramatically.

For a player with lower tier mentality and elite talent, you are looking at the Ravel Morrison, Balotelli, Denilson types. A team full of them isn't beating a team full of James Milners.
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I don’t think the players you have mentioned (bar maybe Morrison) were 10/10 talents. 10/10 talent is incredibly rare and the reality is most of the time they aren’t going to have a 1/10 mentality so it’s a hard hypothetical.
 
9/10 mentality with 7/10 ability will, over the course of a season, beat a 3/10 mentality with 10/10 ability every time.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
I don’t think the players you have mentioned (bar maybe Morrison) were 10/10 talents. 10/10 talent is incredibly rare and the reality is most of the time they aren’t going to have a 1/10 mentality so it’s a hard hypothetical.
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Pretty much everyone involved in football who spent time around Morrison speaks in awe of his talent. He's the closest thing we have to an example of top level talent vs bottom level mentality. Denilson was transferred to Europe as the most expensive footballer of all time at 20 years of age because of his dazzling talent, but ended up with a journeyman career that never was, because he never learned how to apply that talent effectively.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
9/10 mentality with 7/10 ability will, over the course of a season, beat a 3/10 mentality with 10/10 ability every time.
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What would be the examples. Beckham vs Maradona?
 
JPRouve said:
What would be the examples. Beckham vs Maradona?
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I'd suggest Gary Neville vs a lot of other PL era RBs - he'd say himself he wasn't the best technically, but he was an absolute bulldog, hence why he kept that spot at United for so long.
 
The proposition outlined here (assuming such things are even quantifiable on 1 to 10 scale) is so heavily weighed in favor of the hardworking guy that it's a no brainer.

It needs some fudging to make it a more interesting conundrum.
JPRouve said:
What would be the examples. Beckham vs Maradona?
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Maradona's on the field tenacity was second to none.
 
Red the Bear said:
Maradona's on the field tenacity was second to none.
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His propensity to not train with much intensity, use all sorts of substances and party every day was also second to none. Maradona would be a terrible example to follow for the average Footballer.
 
Talent will take you further in general. The closer you get to the top level in football, it's talent thats the differentiating factor.

Luck is more important than either though. You could be stupidly talented with a great mentality, but you break your leg or get a serious at the wrong time if your development curved - there's no way you're catching back up.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
I'd suggest Gary Neville vs a lot of other PL era RBs - he'd say himself he wasn't the best technically, but he was an absolute bulldog, hence why he kept that spot at United for so long.
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Do you have examples of these 10/10 ability RBs?
 
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