Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

Because being better in one specific tournament (even if that's very much up for debate) isn't the end all be all of what makes a player better than the other. X amount of select matches in the CL isn't the golden standard of which everyone judges the quality of a player. You seem to put a lot of weight into that, and while that is perfectly fine you can't ignore other people's opinion just because they don't use the same metrics to come to their conclusion. IMO it's much more logical to look at a whole career when judging how good a player is, i.e you look at the games where their teams doesn't win, you look at what happens when they attack but fail to score etc. If you only look at the positive ends of what a player achieves, or especially what his teams acheive, you are going to miss out on tons of factors which shows how good a single player is.

You and a couple of other people on here seem to argue that Ronaldo is better because of a couple of very specific aspects over the course of his career. The Messi side seem to just go with "just look at them play, overall Messi is the better player", and I think that's pretty interesting. If you need to twist and turn the achievements of a player to seperate him from the rest you're on a very slippery slope imo.

I’m not twisting and turning anything, what I’m saying is pretty simple and no one here has disagreed with it which means it must make some sense for them too.

The Champions League and international football are more important than the league... so if someone thinks Ronaldo has done better in the CL and for his country they obviously have to think he’s been the better player or at the very least that it’s pretty close.

The problem with ‘watch them play, Messi is better’ is that they’re judging how consistently good they are at different parts of the game when the biggest competitions in football do not value consistency.

I’d rate Messi higher if he was average for 38 league games and great in 7 World Cup games than average in the World Cup games and great in the league for example. Between them it’s hardly a huge difference but the way I see it, for their whole careers until now, Ronaldo has outperformed Messi in the CL and internationally, therefore he’s the better player. You can disagree with that but for me it’s the only way it makes sense to look at it.

 

[Cal?]

How many people in here have said that Ronaldo isn't one of the all time greats? Even if you thought he was the 10th best of all time that surely puts him in that category no? It's more like the Ronaldo fans are throwing a fit when people say that they think player x, y and z are better.

Most Cristiano fans acknowledge Messi as one of the very best, personally I think he’s the 2nd best ever.

Many Messi fans have claims fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Zidane, Cryuff, etc as better...

 

[Peyroteo]

No idea how you're missing the point.

Ronaldo is considered the best UCL player because he has more goals and more clutch performances in this competition than Messi.

Messi is considered the better player because in all competitions during a season they score nearly the same amount of goals but one of them dribbles more, has more assists and creates more chances.

Saying that Ronaldo is the best UCL player and that Messi is the best player isn't contradictory, it means one performs better in one competition and the other performs better during a season.

I didn’t miss the point, I just think that point is wrong.

 

[Zlaatan]

Messi had a much stronger case 4 years ago. I’ve always maintained that Cristiano is better and the last few years have proven me right.

FWIW there's no right or wrong, just your own opinion. Which the majority in here happen to disagree with.

 

[Pink Moon]

I’ve always maintained that Cristiano is better and the last few years have proven me right.

No they haven't.

 

[Zlaatan]

Most Cristiano fans acknowledge Messi as one of the very best, personally I think he’s the 2nd best ever.

Many Messi fans have claims fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Zidane, Cryuff, etc as better...

Correct, but that doesn't mean that they don't think that he's a top class player. It only means that they think that there are a few players that were better than him.

 

[Cal?]

FWIW there's no right or wrong, just your own opinion. Which the majority in here happen to disagree with.

The majority also thought Brexit was a good idea.

 

[Cal?]

Correct, but that doesn't mean that they don't think that he's a top class player. It only means that they think that there are a few players that were better than him.

That to me is a ludicrous opinion, one they’re entitled to having, and I’m entitled to laugh at.

 

[Cal?]

No they haven't.

Are you seriously going to argue that Ronaldo hasn’t been head and shoulder above Messi from 2015/16 onwards?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Most Cristiano fans acknowledge Messi as one of the very best, personally I think he’s the 2nd best ever.

Many Messi fans have claims fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Zidane, Cryuff, etc as better...

You are so right. It's only Messi fans that are unfair.

*a 0.1second google search later*

"1 - Messi only knows one move, one feint, and he always does that same feint. on the other hand, Cristiano Ronaldo is an amazing, fantasist players with lots of different moves and signature feints.

2 - Messi is very short and physically weak. And he is not as fast as people say, because he's a bit fat. This lack of physical attributes make him a very one-dimensional player.

3 - He has been too lucky this season. I mean did you see the Arsenal game? The ball just landed in his foot 4 times. He must have been blessed or something, because I have never seen anyone as lucky as him. Maradona was and will ever be miles better than Messi.

4 - Messi is a greedy and fake player. People say Ronaldo is cocky and Messi is humble, but that's just because Messi is ugly. I one saw Messi at the airport and people were asking him for autographs and he simply ignored everyone, as if he was more than us all. Messi, you are a human being just like us, and being an overrated overpaid football player just shows the bad person you truly are!

5 - Messi is a huge diver. I mean look at his last games and those surgically carved fouls, everyone who's played football before knows that's how they teach some players to dive. And the referees know that, but they stupidly protedct just because he is ridicousy considered the best player in the world!!! Come on, people, don't you at least have eyes!!!"
The above was the first thing that came up in Google. I'm sure there's plenty more where it came from. (I highlighted the best parts)

All fans of anything ever are biased, unfair in their criticism of others and like to cherry pick facts to enhance their arguments. Being a fan is not a rational process, hence, rational arguments don't apply to fan logic. Look at this 7 trillion post debate about Messi vs Ronaldo, perhaps 1 in 50 posts is a fair assessment of someone who gives up 1 page later.

Debating who's better is entertaining, pointing at the other camp and calling them biased or somehow worse is ridiculous and makes you look silly.

 

[fck]

Both are obviously great players but I still can't get my head around how people can watch those two and not see that Messi has just more ability and talent than Ronaldo.

 

[Kinsella]

I’ve always maintained that Cristiano is better and the last few years have proven me right.

Only in your own mind.

Most Cristiano fans acknowledge Messi as one of the very best, personally I think he’s the 2nd best ever.

Start a poll asking if C Ronaldo is the best player who ever lived and you'll get far, far greater landslide than this one.

 

[TheRedScot]

Are you seriously going to argue that Ronaldo hasn’t been head and shoulder above Messi from 2015/16 onwards?

yes. Messi has been head and shoulders above him this season 2017/18

 

[midnightmare]

Ronaldo for me. Great can’t mean a point in time. It needs to span a career that’s long. Loads of people think that peak Ronaldinho or peak (Brazilian) Ronaldo we’re better than both Messi and CR but those guys had a short peak (for different reasons). Same for van Basten for example.

Cristiano has performed at an insane level season after season for 10+ seasons now. 4 CLs! 3 CLs in 4 years, obliterating CL scoring records (starting well behind and going well beyond Messi) and winning an international tournament. That’s something Messi can’t match and to me, the “watch them play” argument holds no water.

Goals win matches. Goal scorers like Ronaldo have exceptional skills. Even a “tap-in merchant” has to have the right skills of reading the game, making space and being deadly when the chance arises. Ronaldo has all these skills and a heck of a lot more.

Messi is great of course. But second to Ronaldo in my humble (and totally irrelevant to all but me) opinion.

 

[PuyolC]

I’m not twisting and turning anything, what I’m saying is pretty simple and no one here has disagreed with it which means it must make some sense for them too.

The Champions League and international football are more important than the league... so if someone thinks Ronaldo has done better in the CL and for his country they obviously have to think he’s been the better player or at the very least that it’s pretty close.

The problem with ‘watch them play, Messi is better’ is that they’re judging how consistently good they are at different parts of the game when the biggest competitions in football do not value consistency.

I’d rate Messi higher if he was average for 38 league games and great in 7 World Cup games than average in the World Cup games and great in the league for example. Between them it’s hardly a huge difference but the way I see it, for their whole careers until now, Ronaldo has outperformed Messi in the CL and internationally, therefore he’s the better player. You can disagree with that but for me it’s the only way it makes sense to look at it.

You should accept that people use different criteria to judge how good a player is.

 

[Peyroteo]

You should accept that people use different criteria to judge how good a player is.

I accept it, anyone can think the way they want to. I just very much disagree with it.

Both are obviously great players but I still can't get my head around how people can watch those two and not see that Messi has just more ability and talent than Ronaldo.

No one argues who's the one who has more ability and talent on the ball. That's obvious to everyone.

 

[Zlaatan]

I’m not twisting and turning anything, what I’m saying is pretty simple and no one here has disagreed with it which means it must make some sense for them too.

The Champions League and international football are more important than the league... so if someone thinks Ronaldo has done better in the CL and for his country they obviously have to think he’s been the better player or at the very least that it’s pretty close.

The problem with ‘watch them play, Messi is better’ is that they’re judging how consistently good they are at different parts of the game when the biggest competitions in football do not value consistency.

I’d rate Messi higher if he was average for 38 league games and great in 7 World Cup games than average in the World Cup games and great in the league for example. Between them it’s hardly a huge difference but the way I see it, for their whole careers until now, Ronaldo has outperformed Messi in the CL and internationally, therefore he’s the better player. You can disagree with that but for me it’s the only way it makes sense to look at it.

Well I disagree but I guess I don't count..

Shouldn't consistency and how good a player is at different parts of the game be massive factors when judging how good a player is though? You claim that int.football and CL are more important but that's A) your opinion, and B) I don't see how that relates to individual skill? I agree that delivering when it matters the most is obviously an important factor in all of this, but you seem to put aside everything else which I don't think is a fair way of looking at it. Judging 100% of their performances surely must be the best way of determining who's the best no?

 

[Zlaatan]

That to me is a ludicrous opinion, one they’re entitled to having, and I’m entitled to laugh at.

Sure, but that's not what you said though. You said that they can't acknowledge that Ronaldo is a top class player but from what I've seen not one person in here has claimed that he isn't.

 

[Rajma]

No one argues who's the one who has more ability and talent on the ball. That's obvious to everyone.

So you’re arguing who had a better individual career then? That’s different from being a better footballer.

 

[breakout67]

I watched Messi once too, scored an individual hattrick away from home and was leaving opposition defenders for dead by going past them with such ease I've never seen from the player before.

What do you mean by subjective criteria? If stats would be the only measurement of the objectivity in football Ronaldo would be considered 5 times the player Maradona was, or you agree with this notion?

I literally gave examples in the post you quoted. This idea that a player is objectively better than another because of 'excitement' or 'emotion' two things that are extremely subjective is nonsensical.

I think Messi is the better player because he is not only a freak goalscorer, but also a freak play maker. I think of him as an upgraded Maradona. It's fine to say that you prefer Messi because he's more exciting and envokes more emotion to you, but to say that Messi does those things absolutely is ridiculous. There are many people that were more excited and emotional watching Ronaldo than Messi (especially when Ronaldo was in his prime). The opposite is also true.

 

[Pink Moon]

Are you seriously going to argue that Ronaldo hasn’t been head and shoulder above Messi from 2015/16 onwards?

1. He hasn't been, no.
2. That wasn't what I was arguing anyway.
3. There's no "proof" of who is better which is my point.

 

[Rajma]

I literally gave examples in the post you quoted. This idea that a player is objectively better than another because of 'excitement' or 'emotion' two things that are extremely subjective is nonsensical.

I think Messi is the better player because he is not only a freak goalscorer, but also a freak play maker. I think of him as an upgraded Maradona. It's fine to say that you prefer Messi because he's more exciting and envokes more emotion to you, but to say that Messi does those things absolutely is ridiculous. There are many people that were more excited and emotional watching Ronaldo than Messi (especially when Ronaldo was in his prime). The opposite is also true.

I agree mostly.

 

[Pink Moon]

I accept it, anyone can think the way they want to. I just very much disagree with it.



No one argues who's the one who has more ability and talent on the ball. That's obvious to everyone.

So you think it's his goalscoring which puts him above Messi?

If so I think that's stupid. There's a fat guy in Scotland who broke Henrik Larsson's goal record. He isn't even close to being as good as him. Scored more goals but...

 

[Peyroteo]

Well I disagree but I guess I don't count..

Shouldn't consistency and how good a player is at different parts of the game be massive factors when judging how good a player is though? You claim that int.football and CL are more important but that's A) your opinion, and B) I don't see how that relates to individual skill? I agree that delivering when it matters the most is obviously an important factor in all of this, but you seem to put aside everything else which I don't think is a fair way of looking at it. Judging 100% of their performances surely must be the best way of determining who's the best no?

Yes, but while doing that you should take into account the importance of said performances. 7 WC games are bigger than 100 league games so they should be judged accordingly. It relates to individual skill because you're judging their performances, not sure I understand what you mean by that.

So you’re arguing who had a better individual career then? That’s different from being a better footballer.

Well, first of all I think there's a lot more to football than how talented you are on the ball.

And secondly to answer your question, no. I'll give the example I gave earlier. In 2017, Messi scored more goals, Messi was consistently the better dribbler and the better passer... but Ronaldo was the better player simply because the biggest competition is shorter and he was better there.

 

[Cal?]

You are so right. It's only Messi fans that are unfair.

*a 0.1second google search later*

"1 - Messi only knows one move, one feint, and he always does that same feint. on the other hand, Cristiano Ronaldo is an amazing, fantasist players with lots of different moves and signature feints.

2 - Messi is very short and physically weak. And he is not as fast as people say, because he's a bit fat. This lack of physical attributes make him a very one-dimensional player.

3 - He has been too lucky this season. I mean did you see the Arsenal game? The ball just landed in his foot 4 times. He must have been blessed or something, because I have never seen anyone as lucky as him. Maradona was and will ever be miles better than Messi.

4 - Messi is a greedy and fake player. People say Ronaldo is cocky and Messi is humble, but that's just because Messi is ugly. I one saw Messi at the airport and people were asking him for autographs and he simply ignored everyone, as if he was more than us all. Messi, you are a human being just like us, and being an overrated overpaid football player just shows the bad person you truly are!

5 - Messi is a huge diver. I mean look at his last games and those surgically carved fouls, everyone who's played football before knows that's how they teach some players to dive. And the referees know that, but they stupidly protedct just because he is ridicousy considered the best player in the world!!! Come on, people, don't you at least have eyes!!!"
The above was the first thing that came up in Google. I'm sure there's plenty more where it came from. (I highlighted the best parts)

All fans of anything ever are biased, unfair in their criticism of others and like to cherry pick facts to enhance their arguments. Being a fan is not a rational process, hence, rational arguments don't apply to fan logic. Look at this 7 trillion post debate about Messi vs Ronaldo, perhaps 1 in 50 posts is a fair assessment of someone who gives up 1 page later.

Debating who's better is entertaining, pointing at the other camp and calling them biased or somehow worse is ridiculous and makes you look silly.

I was referring to this thread (or people on here in general), not over the internet, you can probably find "opinions" online where water is dry and snow is hot.

 

[Cal?]

Both are obviously great players but I still can't get my head around how people can watch those two and not see that Messi has just more ability and talent than Ronaldo.

Is anyone arguing about ability or talent?

We're talking about the greatest player ever.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I was referring to this thread (or people on here in general), not over the internet, you can probably find "opinions" online where water is dry and snow is hot.

I see, well, I've personally not read anyone saying Ronaldo is not world class, but I'm not willing to dig through this entire thread, so I'll take your word for it

oh and also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_water

 

[Cal?]

yes. Messi has been head and shoulders above him this season 2017/18

Have you just woken up from a coma lasting 3 months?

I don't deny Messi was better for the first 3 months, but Ronaldo has more than made up for it since January.

 

[Cal?]

Sure, but that's not what you said though. You said that they can't acknowledge that Ronaldo is a top class player but from what I've seen not one person in here has claimed that he isn't.

Define top class. Personally I think it's an insult to either player to be talked about as anything less than best 5 EVER.

 

[Rajma]

Have you just woken up from a coma lasting 3 months?

I don't deny Messi was better for the first 3 months, but Ronaldo has more than made up for it since January.

No he didn’t they are out of CDR, la liga is gone. You can’t be best player by just turning up for few months a season, consistency matters.

 

[Cal?]

No he didn’t they are out of CDR, la liga is gone. You can’t be best player by just turning up for few months a season, consistency matters.

The CDR? Do they really care about that?

You can'e be best player if you only batter the minnows and disappears in the top competition, beating the best matters.

 

[Cal?]

I see, well, I've personally not read anyone saying Ronaldo is not world class, but I'm not willing to dig through this entire thread, so I'll take your word for it

oh and also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_water

Exactly my point, you can find dry water on the internet.

 

[Rajma]

The CDR? Do they really care about that?

You can'e be best player if you only batter the minnows and disappears in the top competition, beating the best matters.

You’re parody account surely

 

[RedRonaldo]

People won’t need to look at YouTube in 30 Years in order to know who was better, they’ll know (the majority) that it was Messi. You don’t need YouTube to know that Maradonna is better than Platini. Most people see Messi as better, there’s no logical reason to assume that it will change over time.

I think you are missing my point - people born in 30 years from now won't have the chance to witness both players playing week in week out in like we do, nor do they have the spare time to go through at least 300-400 games they played in full 90 minutes "old" footages to make a fair judgement. Chances are majority of them would only look at their overall stats/record/achievement and some showcasing footages from "youtube" to decide how good are they.

Fact is, officially they both won Ballon D'or 5 times+ (more than anyone else in entire history), CL 4 times+, league/cup multiple times, scored crazy amount of goals, and broke/hold insane no. of records (far more than anyone in entire history). These will stand in football history forever regardless of people's opinion (in past/present/future).

If you ask me how good Di Stefano was, how would I know? (I was born way after he retired) But I still rate him among the top 5 or 6 GOAT, simply because he won a lot of European Cups (CL) like no one else in football history ever did, so dominating in his era, and scored many goals, and decisive winning goals in big matches.

 

[Cal?]

You’re parody account surely

As Ronaldo's landslide victory in the Ballon D'or and Fifa Best awards in 2017 shows, the football world values beating the best a lot more than consistency.

 

[Kinsella]

No he didn’t they are out of CDR, la liga is gone. You can’t be best player by just turning up for few months a season, consistency matters.

You can't be the best player ever with Ronaldo's skill set.

 

[Rajma]

As Ronaldo's landslide victory in the Ballon D'or and Fifa Best awards in 2017 shows, the football world values beating the best a lot more than consistency.

As Trump victory in U.S. elections shows people are thick, and last year he deserved it. I was alluding to this season quite clearly not sure why you had to bring up last season, since he was pretty consistent himself as a result they won La Liga.

 

[Cal?]

As Trump victory in U.S. elections shows people are thick, and last year he deserved it. I was alluding to this season quite clearly not sure why you had to bring up last season, since he was pretty consistent himself as a result they won La Liga.

Agreed, that's why the 71-29 split here is to be taken by a pinch of salt.

However, the Ballon D'or is voted for by a selected group in the football world, not by "the people".

Also, Ronaldo had a great first half of 2017, but even his biggest fan will agree the 2nd half was pretty bad.

 

[Rajma]

Agreed, that's why the 71-29 split here is to be taken by a pinch of salt.

However, the Ballon D'or is voted for by a selected group in the football world, not by "the people".

I like how you just ignored the other part and concentrated on something completely irrelevant. You’re an experienced wum well done, hope Ronaldo pays you at least, otherwise this is such a waste of human life’s time.

 

[Cal?]

I like how you just ignored the other part and concentrated on something completely irrelevant. You’re an experienced wum well done, hope Ronaldo pays you at least, otherwise this is such a waste of human life’s time.

You seem to be the one who fails to grasp that the awards are based on calendar year. Ronaldo’s great first half 2017 was enough for his landslide victory despite his poor last 3/4 months.

2018 Ronaldo has been as good if not better than Messi, the fact the La Liga is gone before 2018 started has nothing to do with anything.