Mike Tyson

[Adzzz]

I read an interesting article on Tyson recently in the guardian: Mike Tyson interview: The iron man melts | Sport | The Observer

It made me think, considering D'matos undeniable influence on Tyson who was for all intents and purposes ferocious and required intensive care and guidance to keep him on his path.

It made me consider how good Tyson could have been, when looking at his record against the very best fighters there is only ever controversy and often failure for Tyson.

Had he not gone off the rails, how good do you think he could have been? Considering the legacy Tyson leaves behind him as the 'baddest man on the planet' and in discussions about him it's hard to hear past 'he'd knock him out in the first three rounds' his actual record leaves much to be desired.

My question, could Tyson have been the greatest of all time - or was he never actually as good as people think?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

No, and that depends on which people. The casual fan/man in the street will probably still subscribe to the "baddest man on the planet" nonsense. So they definitely overrate him. Yes, he was, and still is, the youngest HW Champion of all time, but he didn't exactly defeat a murderer's row in unifying.

In my opinion, he was a bully, and like all bullies, when his opponent stood up to him, he had a tendency to go to pieces. We saw it with Douglas (yes, I know about the long count), and later with Holyfield.

Prison, followed by a tour of tomato can alley softened him up, and and he was never the same. The first time he went in with a live opponent post prison (Holyfield), he was beaten up, and knocked out. Looking back, it is amazing that Tyson was the overwhelming favourite going into that fight. People thought Holyfield was going to die.

 

[Eyepopper]

My question, could Tyson have been the greatest of all time - or was he never actually as good as people think?

When he was an amature and a young pro he was outstanding, just a hurricane of power and aggression.

'The best of all time'? Probably not... but up there IMO.

I've seen and read a lot about his career, I was boxing myself back then and I loved him.

D'matos death was definitely a big loss to him, I think he was impressionable and got some really bad advice after that. His career certainly would've been different had D'matos been around.

 

[beardsleybob]

Had he not relied on Cus so much I could bet a testicle he'd have been realistically classed as the GoAT. He started his career as a beast, donating all comers. All the way up to winning his first belt he was unstoppable. Then shit like Don King and Robin Givens really fecked him up. Shame such a talent wasn't fulfilled

 

[Eyepopper]

I was too young to really realise but I remember my Dad saying when he first got involved with King that it would be the end of him.

 

[Spoony]

No, and that depends on which people. The casual fan/man in the street will probably still subscribe to the "baddest man on the planet" nonsense. So they definitely overrate him. Yes, he was, and still is, the youngest HW Champion of all time, but he didn't exactly defeat a murderer's row in unifying.

In my opinion, he was a bully, and like all bullies, when his opponent stood up to him, he had a tendency to go to pieces. We saw it with Douglas (yes, I know about the long count), and later with Holyfield.

Prison, followed by a tour of tomato can alley softened him up, and and he was never the same. The first time he went in with a live opponent post prison (Holyfield), he was beaten up, and knocked out. Looking back, it is amazing that Tyson was the overwhelming favourite going into that fight. People thought Holyfield was going to die.

To be fair Holyfield was a sted as. As for the Douglas fight Tyson didn't even look in the right physical condition. He was surrounded by leeches after Cus and it affected him both mentally and physically. At his peak, he's probably the most destructive fighter I've seen. But as a consequence of prison-time(probably) he became a punchbag as loss of his reflexes.

 

[Spoony]

I was too young to really realise but I remember my Dad saying when he first got involved with King that it would be the end of him.

King, Givens and his mother in law. He was surrounded by gold diggers.

 

[Eyepopper]

Yes men is what he was surrounded by, they took him away from all the people who had any sort of control over him and everything just went to his head.

I dont think he was the most disciplined person and it was Cus mainly who kept him focused. He also had some emotional problems and I'm sure King, Givens et al had his head all over the place.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

To be fair Holyfield was a sted as. As for the Douglas fight Tyson didn't even look in the right physical condition. He was surrounded by leeches after Cus and it affected him both mentally and physically. At his peak, he's probably the most destructive fighter I've seen. But as a consequence of prisontime(probably) he become a bunchbag as loss of his reflexes.

He barely trained and was banging Japanese hookers the day before the Douglas fight. But that is who he is, an insecure, mentally fragile, massively flawed person.

I don't believe Cus (or anyone for that matter), could have kept him on the straight and narrow. He was always going to self destruct. For that reason, I can't envisage a scenario in which he could go down as the GOAT.

The rape conviction was bullshit, IMO.

 

[Spoony]

He barely trained and was banging Japanese hookers the day before the Douglas fight. But that is who he is, an insecure, mentally fragile, massively flawed person.

I don't believe Cus (or anyone for that matter), could have kept him on the straight and narrow. He was always going to self destruct. For that reason, I can't envisage a scenario in which he could go down as the GOAT.

The rape conviction was bullshit, IMO.

I agree. As for Cus, we'll never know how things may have turned out but Tyson was awesome during Tyson-Cus era.

 

[Eyepopper]

 

[Mick1991]

Never bought the rape bullshit, what the hell did she expect was going to happen when she went back to his hotel room? Tiddlywinks would have been a bit of craic but I doubt Mike would have played.

 

[Nucks]

Tyson came along really at what I think most people can agree was potentially a historical all time low for the HW division. Tyson was good, I think it is difficult to judge how good because of the state of the HW division in his prime, there isn't a good measuring stick for him to be judged against.

 

[CLK_FPC]

For all intents and purposes Tyson was awesome, a decent actual boxer who had the power speed and aggression to do damage.

His size counted against him but the way he got inside kind of negated that.
I don't think that whole people standing up to him thing is valid he peaked extremely early had he fought Douglas, Lewis, Holyfield, Williams, Mcbride in his prime would have been differing out comes I think. That's not to say he would have won these fights but they would have panned out differently.

 

[CLK_FPC]

Tyson came along really at what I think most people can agree was potentially a historical all time low for the HW division. Tyson was good, I think it is difficult to judge how good because of the state of the HW division in his prime, there isn't a good measuring stick for him to be judged against.

Very weak heavyweight division but I've seen the same said about Marciano.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I don't believe any version of Tyson beats Hoyfield or Lewis. Prime Tyson destroys Williams or McBride. I don't acknowledge those defeats when discussing Tyson.

 

[Adzzz]

From those videos you can see how ferocious young Tyson was. I definitely think he could have achieved more, but with anger like that inside without the correct and constant guidance he was bound to go off the rails.

He actually said when he bit Holyfields ear that he wasn't even bothered about boxing anymore, is that because Tyson knew he couldn't beat Evander fairly or was it genuinely a case of Tyson living upto the reputation that preceded him.

 

[Rams]

I read an interesting article on Tyson recently in the guardian: Mike Tyson interview: The iron man melts | Sport | The Observer

It made me think, considering D'matos undeniable influence on Tyson who was for all intents and purposes ferocious and required intensive care and guidance to keep him on his path.

It made me consider how good Tyson could have been, when looking at his record against the very best fighters there is only ever controversy and often failure for Tyson.

Had he not gone off the rails, how good do you think he could have been? Considering the legacy Tyson leaves behind him as the 'baddest man on the planet' and in discussions about him it's hard to hear past 'he'd knock him out in the first three rounds' his actual record leaves much to be desired.

My question, could Tyson have been the greatest of all time - or was he never actually as good as people think?

It wasn't just him going off the rails. He also lost some of his speed when he reached his mid 20's. And he was never a great boxer like Lewis.

 

[Mick1991]

From those videos you can see how ferocious young Tyson was. I definitely think he could have achieved more, but with anger like that inside without the correct and constant guidance he was bound to go off the rails.

He actually said when he bit Holyfields ear that he wasn't even bothered about boxing anymore, is that because Tyson knew he couldn't beat Evander fairly or was it genuinely a case of Tyson living upto the reputation that preceded him.

Holyfield played him beautifully. You have mentioned the anger and his well known short fuse. Any boxer worth their salt would take advantage, the first time they fought look at the way Holyfield uses his head, every time Tyson tried to use his power up the inside Holyfield would clinch and use his head (He cut Tyson), Holyfield being the taller man would duck down and when Tyson would charge he would catch him flush with his head. It definitely rocked Tyson and Holyfield just bet the shite of him after that.

The second time it started to happen again and Tyson just lost it he took a few nibbles out of his ear and then he just bit it.

Even if you look at Tyson's body at an early stage of his career (no homo) and then after he comes out of prison (he did unify the belts beating Bruno and ??? can't remember!) but you could tell he had lost his edge and wasn't going to be the same.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Tyson has been nominated for the International Boxing Hall of Fame today.

 

[Neutral]

Should be a shoo-in as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Well, Stallone is also up, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

 

[Nucks]

Very weak heavyweight division but I've seen the same said about Marciano.

We could say the "modern HW division" since Marciano was something like 190 pounds if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Adzzz]

Holyfield played him beautifully. You have mentioned the anger and his well known short fuse. Any boxer worth their salt would take advantage, the first time they fought look at the way Holyfield uses his head, every time Tyson tried to use his power up the inside Holyfield would clinch and use his head (He cut Tyson), Holyfield being the taller man would duck down and when Tyson would charge he would catch him flush with his head. It definitely rocked Tyson and Holyfield just bet the shite of him after that.

The second time it started to happen again and Tyson just lost it he took a few nibbles out of his ear and then he just bit it.

Even if you look at Tyson's body at an early stage of his career (no homo) and then after he comes out of prison (he did unify the belts beating Bruno and ??? can't remember!) but you could tell he had lost his edge and wasn't going to be the same.

Yeah there is no doubt that Tyson's greatest strength lay in his speed and raw aggression so when he came up against a boxer who could keep his head - i'm thinking ala Hatton vs Mayweather here too - the boxer beats a brawler, I'm not taking away from Tyson's skills as a boxer, but certainly without the guidance of D'mato there was no-one to keep him semi-level headed and not keep walking into danger.

Others have mentioned that prison weakened Tyson - why is that? If anything, you'd expect prison to toughen a man, Tyson had already done time before so why would it have been any different? Did something happen in prison?

Tyson deserves to be in the hall-of-fame simply for being one boxing's most controversial and frankly, enigmatic fighters.

 

[Adzzz]

Just watched Tyson vs. Bruno in '89, comparing it to the early videos in this thread you could already see that Tyson was somewhat less dangerous, even through his blistering start and finish, something just didn't seem right.

Fair fecks to Bruno though, his eyes seemed to instantly swell up even before Tyson took a swing.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Yeah there is no doubt that Tyson's greatest strength lay in his speed and raw aggression so when he came up against a boxer who could keep his head - i'm thinking ala Hatton vs Mayweather here too - the boxer beats a brawler, I'm not taking away from Tyson's skills as a boxer, but certainly without the guidance of D'mato there was no-one to keep him semi-level headed and not keep walking into danger.

Others have mentioned that prison weakened Tyson - why is that? If anything, you'd expect prison to toughen a man, Tyson had already done time before so why would it have been any different? Did something happen in prison?

Tyson deserves to be in the hall-of-fame simply for being one boxing's most controversial and frankly, enigmatic fighters.

Using that logic, so does Johnny Tapia. Tyson deserves to go in as the youngest, undisputed HW champion in history. And because, in his prime, he was probably the most famous sporting name in the world.

As for prison, he was taken away from the sport for three years. In a sport like boxing, that kind of absence, in those kinds of conditions, can ruin a fighter.

Although it could be argued that Tyson's appetite for the sport had already started to wane prior to the Douglas fight.

 

[stubie]

For anyone who has ESPN Classic they show his first 25 fights. I have managed to watch quite a few of them. Looking at those early fights you could tell he was destined to make it big.