With the new addition of Sancho and Varane, I expect we should at least better last season's points tally. Top 3 finish, win any cup competition and progress to the quarter-final of the Champions League.
Minimum Bar for Continuity in Ole's Third Full Season
- Thread starter Raveneye
- Start date
What's imaginary is that we each get to define exactly what has to be accomplished in order for the manager not to get sacked.
Also what's imaginary is that the people who do get to decide that does so on the basis of stuff like that. Presumably - and thankfully - they look at the broader picture and make a decision about what's best for the club going forward, taking all factors and circumstances into account. Which means that if you think you can define it as a "minimum bar" that you see clear patterns of play, you're basically just creating a meaningless line in the sand beyond which you can feel entitled to be unhappy.
Expectations, targets, hopes - now, those can be discussed, and thankfully that's what many contributors to this thread seems to be doing. But to frame the issue the way the OP does is just silly.
Title or else sack him.
A trophy and top 4.
To see clear progress I think we need to mount a serious title challenge, and come close, 7 points off I think would be the cut-off point. We have to qualify from our group in the CL as well. Continuity would be to secure CL and few points lost v the lower placed teams. I’d like us to play more on the front foot and be more brave vs OK teams. I have to admit I was bored for a lot of games last season.
PL: 80-84 points (irrespective of where that puts us in the league)
CL: QF/SF if the draw is kind
FA Cup: as far as possible/win
EFL Cup: as far as possible/win
My guess is we'll get to 80-82 points, QF in the CL (we might even be dark horses for that and win it/go to the final considering how poor a lot of the usual big guns have been in recent years) and we'll take the domestic cups mega seriously and win at least one of them.
People who are expecting a title charge when our midfield is still going to be McFred or one of them in the single pivot need to realise that Ole isn't playing FIFA. We badly need a DM to transform this side.
And when people say he'll be be in his third season, they also need to realise that we essentially stood still last year in the transfer market, and it's only because of Ole that we progressed as much as we did despite the difficult start and the shockingly bad transfer window last year. The window we're having now, is the one we should have had in 2020. On that basis, I'm expecting continued progression but definitely more marked than last year as we filled two major holes in the starting XI (as opposed to arguably none in 2020) and the title charge and will be for next season provided we get the DM and a striker to replace Cavani.
A trophy and in the title race in the last month, no more turtle progress. Been here long enough and has the players now, no more excuses. No other manager would get away with what we saw last year. If he dips bad before Christmas again, he needs binned. Too much sentiment, United need to get back to winning trophies and top honours now.
The absolute minimum, of course, is to qualify for the Champions League. We have seen that with every coach we have had since Sir Alex retired. Champions League qualification must be secured by the end of the season, or still look like a reasonable expectation mid-season, or the coach gets fired.
For me, personally, I obviously want to see more. However, the question was about the minimum.
There is an added complication that if you want to replace Ole you need to find someone who 'fits' what he has built so far. We have seen how lurching from different coaches who have different approaches can bugger up your recruitment. So we would have to find a replacement who would be willing, and able, to adapt to broad outlook of our squad.
For example, I think Antonio Conte is a great coach. A better coach than most out there, tactically. However, he likes to play 3-5-2. Is our squad tooled for that? How many changes? How much rebuilding would be needed to try and get there? We saw LVG start a season with 3-5-2, buy players to suit 3-5-2, then ditch it within weeks. Left us with players we didn't need and couldn't shift.
There needs to be an obvious, better, well suited replacement if we're going to get rid of Ole in the event he makes top four. Seems a bit of a hassle without much upside.
Where have I said anything about “pattern of play” it seems that there are some extremist both those who are Ole in no matter what, and on the other end of the spectrum those who are Ole out no matter what. Both these sides make discussions impossible, as for example the former get very sensitive when things like targets and expectations are mentioned. You’d think the most ardent Ole supporters would have the most faith in his abilities to take United back to the top.
No pressure there so. All the other teams are rubbish as well so it should be easy.
Considering how packed our squad is, even a below average manager can achieve that.
Its never easy. But we’ve won it 13 times so it’s doable. Especially when you spend the most money most transfer windows.
Win something, title challange, good CL run. We have the squad.
Top 4 in the PL and Quarters of the CL I think are the measuring stick in terms of cold stats, but I'd also like to see an improvement in the quality of our football as we are too often a drab side to watch, there are patches of play in numerous games that show potential, I'd like to see that become more regular in our performances.
Gotta win the title.
These posts are mental.
In the 29 seasons of Premier League football we've played, we have:
- Lost more than 5 games in 15 seasons (two of which were over 42 games)
- Lost less than 5 games in only 5 seasons
- Gone unbeaten at home just 3 times
- Gone unbeaten at home just once since the 2000/01 season
- Won 85 points or more just 9 times (two of which were over 42 games)
- Scored 80 or more goals just 9 times (one of which was over 42 games)
Insanely unrealistic targets.
For comparison:
- 14 of 29 league winners scored fewer than 80 goals
- 10 of 29 league winners won with fewer than 85 points
- 16 of 29 league winners lost 5 or more games
You haven't, but some other posters on this thread have. I referred it because I thought it was a particularly egregious example of the sort of nonsense the OP actively invites. And where have I said anything about being Ole in no matter what (or not making any demands on employees, for that matter)? My point is that decisions like sacking the manager is on the basis of a comprehensive and competent assessment, not on whether or not some specific target of points or placement in certain tournaments is achieved. Targets and expectations are fine and I'm happy to list my own, but putting the issue in terms of the minimum that has to be achieved for the manager not to get sacked is just idiotic, and also dishonest: The question already implies that OGS is ripe for sacking, and if that's what posters think, then fecking pose that question instead of sneaking it into the premiss of another one.
Sorry, don't wish to quarrel, but I think it's fair to say that yours was a fairly cheeky post that deserved a reply in kind.
In my mind he needs a trophy. The reality is he has the job for as long as he wants it as long as they are in the CL.
For all you people saying he needs a trophy, I seriously doubt you would be happy with just the league cup or even the FA cup. For a club like Man Utd, it's all about performace in the PL and CL.
Premier league is more competitive now. The league winners have to win more games and lose lesser games than before. And you’re saying we’ve had 14 seasons with 5 or fewer losses. How is that unrealistic target at all? We have just bought one of the world’s best CBs to partner with one of the best CBs in England. Our fullbacks are arguably more defensive than offensive. We should absolutely expect clean sheets this season. You can’t lose if you keep clean sheets. Do you ever want us to progress or are you fine with status quo for another decade?
edit: in past 10 seasons only on two occasions the premier league winners have more than 5 losses in the season. And both those times it was man city with 6 losses in total. Just for context, Leicester had 3 losses in total in their league winning season. I am not even asking for us to win the PL out right, I am asking us to show consistency of historical league winners from the last decade.
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This feels about right. The fact it’s been so long without the title isn’t Ole’s fault, and the level of competition has gone up over the past decade. It should be a concerted title challenge though.
Just keep on evolving our style and play good entertaining football, keep the lads motivated, do more shrewd transfer business and we’ll start winning things soon enough.That’s all I ask.
Oh, and top 4 should always be a demand when managing United, so no excuses there. Only time missing top 4 shouldn’t be a sackable offence is if we won the league or CL the previous year or maybe during a big rebuild of the squad.
Oh, and top 4 should always be a demand when managing United, so no excuses there. Only time missing top 4 shouldn’t be a sackable offence is if we won the league or CL the previous year or maybe during a big rebuild of the squad.
They're entirely the wrong metrics though, which is why it's insane. They're vanity metrics.
Last season we lost the exact same number of games (6) as City yet finished 12 points behind them.
The season before they actually lost one more game than us (9 vs 8), yet finished 15 points ahead of us.
In 2017/18, Liverpool lost just five games and scored 84 goals, but finished 4th, 25 points off 1st, and 6 points off us in 2nd.
Even among the title races, in 2018/19, City lost three more games than Liverpool (4 vs 1), but still won the league ahead of them.
In 2016/17, Spurs lost one less game than Chelsea (4 vs 5) bit finished behind them.
In fact, Liverpool losing just once in 2018/19 is the lowest number of defeats in a season of any top four placed team in the past 10 seasons, yet it wasn't enough to get them over the line. Additionally, half of the top 10 goal tallys of the past 10 seasons are by teams that didn't win the league.
There is almost nothing to gain by setting targets based on final points totals or being unbeaten in x number of games, and even less to gain by setting targets for goals scored and remaining unbeaten at home.
Only half of the past 10 seasons have seen the league winners lose fewer games than every other team in the top four, and only six of the 10 have seen them score more than every other team in the top four.
In the past 10 seasons, we've seen a team finish 2nd on 97 points, another on 86 points and still be 7 points off the winners. We've seen 82 points only be enough to get you 3rd, but be within four points of the winners, yet we've also seen 81 points be enough to secure the league by a margin of 10 points while a total of 89 points has the league decided on goal difference.
The only metric that league winners have consistently outperformed the other top four teams in is games won. They've lost more games than other teams in a number of seasons, but in the past 10 seasons, only once have they failed to win more than another top four team, and that was the year it was decided on goal difference. In fact, only twice in the past 10 seasons has a team inside the top four finished behind a team that won fewer games than them.
So I'm not here just picking apart your post, here's what I'm looking for as the minumum bar (as set out by the OP):
- Another top four finish
- Progression from the CL group and only knocked out by a team competitive in one of the top domestic leagues (i.e. not Sevilla 2017/18)
- A run in at least one of the domestic cups that is only ended by a top side, or one of the chasing pack away from home (the likes of West Ham, Leicester, Everton and Leeds last season).
This bar is likely to remain at that level for a while, unless we start demonstrating some proper title contending ability.
As a fan I find this so disheartening, we've turned into Arsenal where the goal during Wenger's last decade was to qualify for CL so they could service the stadium debt.
But the goal of a business and the fanbase can be different.
The goal should be glory, winning the actual thing, not participating.
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Minimum bar for me:
To finish within 6 points of the PL Winner
QF/SF of CL
As I explained in other posts(I don't blame you for nothing digging it up, though): there is a huge difference between 'minimum demands' and 'goals'.
Our goal must be to challenge now, obviously.
More points than last year.
AND
Both fewer goals conceded and more goals scored.
AND
Both fewer goals conceded and more goals scored.
Bare minimum must be,
league and f.a. cup.
Champions league winners,world cup winners,euro 24 winners,milk cup,rumbelows cup.
eurovision,nobel peace prize,100m swimming certificate and best kept village.
Anything less its a disaster
league and f.a. cup.
Champions league winners,world cup winners,euro 24 winners,milk cup,rumbelows cup.
eurovision,nobel peace prize,100m swimming certificate and best kept village.
Anything less its a disaster
Min demands from fans should not be CL participation in the next season. What's the point of that? Minimum demand should be a proper title challenge, free flowing, stylish football etc. We can prioritize one vs the other but as a fan my goals are different from Glazers who care about CL participation at the expense of anything else
I mean I can understand you saying that just a plain target of “no more than 5 losses” needs more context and I will be fine with that. I understand what you are saying about one single metric not being enough on its own. But you completely undo all of that good work but listing your own targets which are top four finish, and that’s basically even lower target than what I suggested. We already made deep cup runs in all comps last season and only lost in CL groups to previous year’s semi-finalists, and were quite unlucky at that. Your target is basically “same as previous season” but a better run in CL and potentially worse finish in PL.
I could say that your targets make no sense as they would not showcase any improvement at all. I mentioned style of dominating football and distinct patterns of play which are all lacking from our side. But you want us to remain the same and you would presumably be okay if we play worse football and obtain worse league finish than last season and end up with no trophies again.
Will a top 4 finish without a trophy be enough this season? I'm not so sure.
“A good cup run “ is one of the worst comments on here .
Imagine signing Varane and Sancho and saying a good cup run would be minmum.
We need a trophy .
End of.
Imagine signing Varane and Sancho and saying a good cup run would be minmum.
We need a trophy .
End of.
-Top 3 Premier League
-Quarter finals Champions League
-One trophy win overall from the season inc the two domestic cups
-Quarter finals Champions League
-One trophy win overall from the season inc the two domestic cups
The most annoyed I've been with Ole in awhile was this week when he said "I don't have a scooby" when asked how fit the players were that haven't yet joined the pre season.
Imagine this being such an important season..... you have one of the biggest medical teams in the whole of sports.... yet he said the fitness is the players responsibility when not at the club.
Each of the players whether on holiday or not should be reporting with body composition stats and atleast on some general fitness plan over the post season. If the international lads are out of shape or off the pace at the start of the season we know where to point.
Imagine this being such an important season..... you have one of the biggest medical teams in the whole of sports.... yet he said the fitness is the players responsibility when not at the club.
Each of the players whether on holiday or not should be reporting with body composition stats and atleast on some general fitness plan over the post season. If the international lads are out of shape or off the pace at the start of the season we know where to point.
Rooney used to turn up overweight every pre season. Don't think its fair to point fingers at Ole for this. These players are paid millions and should look after themselves when they are on holiday. Constant monitoring during their break period wont go down well with players I think.
We all would manage it differently but I know I'd have some kind of base plan for the players. Shaw is the standout reason why. He struggles at the best of times to keep a shape that resembles a paid athlete.
This is a huge season and I personally want the staff to leave no stone unturned.
The thread is about the absolute minimum I expect for him to keep his job into next season, not what I would like to see in terms of improvements, and not even what I think our actual targets should be.
I agree we need to see improvements, but I'm willing to give him at least a season or two more with those minimum expectations before I'm going to start calling for anything more.
City are almost certainly going to be in the title picture, and I expect Chelsea and Liverpool to be very strong this coming season. I won't be overly disheartened if we finish behind them this time out, as long as we're above everyone else.
Last season marked our first consecutive top four finishes post-Fergie, after all. Three on the trot isn't a backwards step, in my opinion.
I think the 22/23 season marks the climax of his project.
That's when we'll have sorted the midfield and got in a big name striker. I'd be so reluctant to get rid of him before he can put those final pieces of the puzzle together.
I'd basically just let him carry this project out bar something utterly disastrous where it becomes obvious that he's lost the dressing room. Which he won't.
That's when we'll have sorted the midfield and got in a big name striker. I'd be so reluctant to get rid of him before he can put those final pieces of the puzzle together.
I'd basically just let him carry this project out bar something utterly disastrous where it becomes obvious that he's lost the dressing room. Which he won't.
I don't think there's much pressure on Ole at all tbh.
I'd like to see more attacking football which surely will come. And hopefully do well in the cups.
All the pressure going into the new season should be on Pep and City. They are the defending champions, they have a great squad they just broken the English transfer record with 100m on Grealish and will likely break that record again this summer buy signing Kane too.
It would be an enormous task for United to overhaul City and win the league - we could do it but I don't think it would reflect badly on Ole if we didn't.
I'd like to see more attacking football which surely will come. And hopefully do well in the cups.
All the pressure going into the new season should be on Pep and City. They are the defending champions, they have a great squad they just broken the English transfer record with 100m on Grealish and will likely break that record again this summer buy signing Kane too.
It would be an enormous task for United to overhaul City and win the league - we could do it but I don't think it would reflect badly on Ole if we didn't.
Challenging league title. A proper one.
A chance of winning the league going into the last couple of games. If we finish 4th and there is only 6 points between top and us thats some progress. We got lucky with Liverpool and Chelsea not performing for different reasons as they should last season and I dont expect they will be that bad again. Saying that the extra competition should be something to spur us on. If we cant handle it and finish 4th and out of the title race early then he wont be sacked as the glazers will be happy with 4th, but he will show hes not got the ability to take us to the next level.