Most underrated: Wataru Endo
Most overrated: Ruben Dias
Most overrated: Ruben Dias
Most under- and overrated current players?
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I feel like Klopp/Liverpool have been praised for how the Endo signing turned out? He doesn't make headlines of course, but that's rare for defensive midfielders anyways.
16 million was an absolute steal. Good injury record too. In the 4 years before he joined Liverpool he only missed 2 games due to injury. And I believe one of those was covid.
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Underrated - Bowen
Overrated - Martinelli
Overrated - Martinelli
OVERRATED
Pedri: Slow and weak and extremely indecisive in the final third. Always plays it safe. He has major stamina issues and looks extremely tired around the 60 minute mark. He's the player profile that appeals to modern Football fans which is exactly what made him so comically overrated. People see a diminutive Spanish technician and just go "He's the next Iniesta/Xavi"; also injury prone and has poor presence against high quality European opposition.
Marcus Rashford: The conversations around Rashford always seem like he's one of the best players and biggest stars in the league. His PR team has done an amazing job in portraying him as this iconic, World Class future United legend. I firmly believe United can never win a league with Rashford as a starter. He lacks consistency, is limited and his work rate is pathetic for someone who isn't an elite attacker. Only truly elite attackers are allowed to be that lazy and entitled. Just a decent Premier League player. Will never be truly World Class.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic: Only just retired so he counts! Great player but nowhere near as good as he or his PR team thinks he is. There's a slight overlap between certain Football Fans and those edgy teenagers who idolize Andrew Tate. This is the exact demographic that laps up Zlatan's cringeworthy quotes and "jokes" which were amusing 15 years back but now it's just stale, boring and sad really. For someone who keeps on rambling about "Lion mentality", Zlatan did routinely disappear from big games and CL knockouts throughout his career. More than half of his career goals are in the French, Dutch, Swedish and American leagues. Total Flat-track bully. There are so many better players than him from his generation alone.
UNDERRATED
Wataru Endo: Absolute bargain for Liverpool. Solid DM with great ball winning ability and very high Football IQ. Great in the air and keeps it simple on the ball instead of making silly schoolboy errors. Very mature and always a nightmare to play against. His performance nullifying De Bruyne was amazing. Smart, hardworking and has a huge impact when he plays. Been one of the best DMs in the league this season.
Ilkay Gundogan: It's about time we talk about Gundogan as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. His body of work is really impressive. Did great at Dortmund and won trophies. Went to City and was an integral part of their success for a long time. Now, he's been really impressive for Barcelona and is turning up when they need him the most. Performed at a high level in 3 different leagues. Very well rounded player and extremely clutch. Always seems to score in the biggest and most important games. Fantastic player who deserves way more respect.
Robert Lewandowski: A finished Robert Lewandowski has better numbers than most World Class attackers have in their peaks. Came into a new league where Barca were struggling and won them trophies and already has around 75 Goal Contributions(56G + 19A) in a season and a half. Staggering record at every level and will end his career at well above 700 career goals. Impeccable consistency and fitness record throughout his career. His career speaks for itself really. Imagine the hype if he was Brazilian, French, English, etc! One of the greatest to ever do it.
Pedri: Slow and weak and extremely indecisive in the final third. Always plays it safe. He has major stamina issues and looks extremely tired around the 60 minute mark. He's the player profile that appeals to modern Football fans which is exactly what made him so comically overrated. People see a diminutive Spanish technician and just go "He's the next Iniesta/Xavi"; also injury prone and has poor presence against high quality European opposition.
Marcus Rashford: The conversations around Rashford always seem like he's one of the best players and biggest stars in the league. His PR team has done an amazing job in portraying him as this iconic, World Class future United legend. I firmly believe United can never win a league with Rashford as a starter. He lacks consistency, is limited and his work rate is pathetic for someone who isn't an elite attacker. Only truly elite attackers are allowed to be that lazy and entitled. Just a decent Premier League player. Will never be truly World Class.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic: Only just retired so he counts! Great player but nowhere near as good as he or his PR team thinks he is. There's a slight overlap between certain Football Fans and those edgy teenagers who idolize Andrew Tate. This is the exact demographic that laps up Zlatan's cringeworthy quotes and "jokes" which were amusing 15 years back but now it's just stale, boring and sad really. For someone who keeps on rambling about "Lion mentality", Zlatan did routinely disappear from big games and CL knockouts throughout his career. More than half of his career goals are in the French, Dutch, Swedish and American leagues. Total Flat-track bully. There are so many better players than him from his generation alone.
UNDERRATED
Wataru Endo: Absolute bargain for Liverpool. Solid DM with great ball winning ability and very high Football IQ. Great in the air and keeps it simple on the ball instead of making silly schoolboy errors. Very mature and always a nightmare to play against. His performance nullifying De Bruyne was amazing. Smart, hardworking and has a huge impact when he plays. Been one of the best DMs in the league this season.
Ilkay Gundogan: It's about time we talk about Gundogan as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. His body of work is really impressive. Did great at Dortmund and won trophies. Went to City and was an integral part of their success for a long time. Now, he's been really impressive for Barcelona and is turning up when they need him the most. Performed at a high level in 3 different leagues. Very well rounded player and extremely clutch. Always seems to score in the biggest and most important games. Fantastic player who deserves way more respect.
Robert Lewandowski: A finished Robert Lewandowski has better numbers than most World Class attackers have in their peaks. Came into a new league where Barca were struggling and won them trophies and already has around 75 Goal Contributions(56G + 19A) in a season and a half. Staggering record at every level and will end his career at well above 700 career goals. Impeccable consistency and fitness record throughout his career. His career speaks for itself really. Imagine the hype if he was Brazilian, French, English, etc! One of the greatest to ever do it.
Lewandowksi is not someone I'd have expected to see in the under-rated column.
Over-rated: Zidane
Over-rated: Zidane
I think Rashford is pretty underrated here these days at least, most people act like he's the worst player we've ever had and can't do anything right.
Statistically one of the most incisive creative passers in the world actually...
Agree on Gundogan, watching him at Barcelona really is kind of eye opening, at City he was great but looked like just one of their guys, outshone by the likes of De Bruyne, Haaland, Bernardo, etc, in Barcelona he looked levels above everybody else immediately, and that was a team that for all its faults was supposed to have a lot of quality in midfield
Griezmann is underrated for me. French people may call me crazy but I think he's easily one of their 5 best players ever at this point - Mbappé nothwithstanding
I'd agree with the Zidane shouts. He was one of the best players to watch due to his elegance and his tournament presence but he was quite often poor over a full season.
Still a top quality player no doubt, but he's often in people's best 5 etc.
Still a top quality player no doubt, but he's often in people's best 5 etc.
Griezmann is pretty underrated when nowadays he mostly seems to get mentioned in the context of slagging him for never winning La Liga. He was huge in 3 tournaments for France where they won/got to finals. Arguably their best player in 2 of them.
Totally agree with your Griezmann shout. Not sure if he makes the top 5 ever though.
Here's the thing with Pedri. He has stagnated a bit in the last year or so. Many Barca fans are extremely frustrated with his constant injuries, poor stamina and lack of final third impact as an attacking 8. Some of those passing statistics can be very deceiving for midfielders because they lack proper context. I have watched Barca a lot over the last 2 years and Pedri has often failed to spot runs made by the attackers and opted for the safe ball out to the flanks. Looks slow, weak and lacks the sharpness he initially had. Last season, Frenkie was much better than him and this season both Gundogan and Frenkie(pre injury) were levels above him.
Young players he was compared to like Bellingham and Musiala are both far more influential than him these days. He does have great ball retention ability and talent but he's still a bit overrated at this point. On the positive side, still young and has time to prove me horribly wrong.
The CAF can be fairly knee-jerk and reactionary so it makes sense that people are criticising him for his bad season currently. But I feel in general the British media, pundits and fan channels do overrate Marcus a lot because he's a local lad who has a good reputation.
What's the conversation here? Top 5 French players in general or Top 5 players for the French NT? Because Benzema has hardly done much for the French NT. Meanwhile Griezmann has been elite for France.
I'd rate him above both Henry and Benzema at this point
What puts him ahead of them?
He's only ahead of them as far as French NT achievements for me.
Henry and Benzema's club careers are superior than his. They won way more team and individual awards.
I also rate them as better players who have reached higher heights than Griezmann.
The fact that Griezmann spent most of his career at Atletico and his failure at Barcelona, a bigger club with more pressure, hurts his legacy.
Top 5 French players overall.
I think Ibra was under rated. That guy could ball'..... proper.
And he was a leader, took no nonsense and could define a team. His personality is huge though and he was never going to settle with Pep. A shame.
Good thread.. it's tempting not to keep it current and go back 10, 20 years. But considering today as 'current' :
Under-rated: Paqueta (although many are now coming round to the fact that this is potentially an awesome midfielder)
Over-rated: Jack Grealish. Nuff said'.
Under-rated: Paqueta (although many are now coming round to the fact that this is potentially an awesome midfielder)
Over-rated: Jack Grealish. Nuff said'.
I like when people answer their questions
Mh. Benzema did, Henry didn't, I'd rate Griezmann and Henry's best as pretty much equals. Henry has more seasons of that top level, i'll give him that. Still all in all at club level I'd rate the 3 as pretty much on the same level. Factor in international football, where Griezmann is way ahead of the other 2, and that's why I'd rate him above them
The reality is Griezmann wasn't particularly worse than Henry at Barcelona, despite being technically incompatible with Messi(being effectively a lesser version of him), Barcelona being much worse as a team and thus less successful gives the impression his failure was down to him not being that good. Though he also just dropped his level for a while, tbf, already his last season for atletico before the move showed a clear downgrade
Get out!
Actually belongs in the overrated category by PL fans. And underrated by the rest. Probably the ones that rate him best are the frenchHenry
Rice (West Ham)
Rice (Arsenal)
Same player, different media attitudes.
Ludicrous that anyone thinks he's a different player.
Rice (Arsenal)
Same player, different media attitudes.
Ludicrous that anyone thinks he's a different player.
I actually think Haaland is a little overrated. He's the best finisher in the world but when his team is being outplayed or he's not getting service, he's anonymous. The likes of Messi and Ronaldo can create their own chances and, in Messi's case, control games as well as scoring at ridiculous rates. Unfortunately most just look at goalscoring
Haha, I think Zizou was an exceptionally good footballer. I just don't think he should be in peoples top 3/top 5 of his generation.
From a league perspective.
Overrated: Luke Shaw - Some here say he's one of the league's best. In reality, Fergie would have binned him 3/4 seasons ago (when Mourinho tried).
Underrated: Gabriel Magalhães, top CB and very consistent but doesn't seem to get the hype of Saliba, Van Dijk and Dias.
Overrated: Luke Shaw - Some here say he's one of the league's best. In reality, Fergie would have binned him 3/4 seasons ago (when Mourinho tried).
Underrated: Gabriel Magalhães, top CB and very consistent but doesn't seem to get the hype of Saliba, Van Dijk and Dias.
Over used to be Mount, never understood any hype around him at all. Now, probably Grealish. Good player sure, but a 100M+ player? Do me a favour.
Under, I'd say Garnacho looking at some of the takes on him. I think he's got everything to go to the absolute top level, but some seem to think he's "OK".
Under, I'd say Garnacho looking at some of the takes on him. I think he's got everything to go to the absolute top level, but some seem to think he's "OK".
Peak:
It seems to me peak Henry was regarded as the best player of the three. That was before we discovered peak Benzema (18-22). Now it's close between them. Griezmann comes third. I feel like if peak Henry was still around, the difference between him and Griezmann would be similar to the one between Mbappé and Griezmann. No one believes that Griezmann is as good as Mbappé.
1) Henry/Benzema
3) Griezmann
Club career:
Henry is ahead of Griezmann realistically. Arguably the best PL player of all-time, league titles, PL top scorer four times, PL player of the year. Griezmann has never won the league. His trophy cabinet consists of a Copa del Rey and a Europa League... He was fantastic and showed remarkable consistency in his first stint for Atletico and is now back to being one of the best players in the world. He just hasn't won enough. Very ironically, Atletico have won their last two league titles when he wasn't at the club, before he joined them and then after he left.
Benzema is clearly ahead here. Starting striker for 14 seasons in the biggest club in the world, 5 UCLs, 92 UCL goals, Ballon d'Or. He has the longevity, all the trophies multiple times and all the individual awards. Performing well for a decade for Madrid is also harder than doing so for Atletico or Arsenal; the expectations, the competition, and therefore the pressure is on another level, as you obviously know. You wouldn't put Koke on the same level as Kroos at club level, would you?
1) Benzema
2) Henry
3) Griezmann
International football:
Benzema is not in the discussion.
However you can't say Griezmann is way ahead of Henry. Henry is a WC winner and runner-up like Griezmann, and he won the Euro. He's also the former all-time top scorer for the national team. Griezmann is ahead due to being more influential in the big tournaments.
1) Griezmann
2) Henry
3) Benzema
Underrated: Ollie Watkins. Guaranteed 15+ goal a season striker who runs the channels non-stop and for some reason is seen by a lot of people as a level below the likes of Toney and Isak.
Overrated: Gabriel Jesus. When Arsenal signed him from City, the narrative was 'well that's Arsenal's striker problem resolved'. When you bring up his poor finishing, Arsenal fans will say he's their Firmino as he'll create space for others. Now he's having Kai Havert start ahead of him.
Overrated: Gabriel Jesus. When Arsenal signed him from City, the narrative was 'well that's Arsenal's striker problem resolved'. When you bring up his poor finishing, Arsenal fans will say he's their Firmino as he'll create space for others. Now he's having Kai Havert start ahead of him.
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Think Watkins is rated fairly, he’s a good Premier League striker but probably not good enough for the big time, the Darren Bent of his generation
My memories of Darren Bent are of him being a bit of a tap-in merchant. I think Watkins is more of an all-rounder.
If he's rated fairly then I'd argue Toney and Isak are overrated as I think he's better than them.
But he is not rated as Messi or Ronaldo and I don't think most people consider him the best finisher in the world either. He is the striker with the best movement/positioning resulting in more chances than perhaps any other active striker would get in the same teams(s). Although his finishing is obviously good, it's his movement/positioning That has resulted in the best goal-to-game ratio in the 70-year history of the Champions League/European Cup. Matching him at finishing is not enough to get those numbers.
I get Griezmann over Henry and Benzema based on national team achievements just like I get Giroid over many superior players. But as overall footballers / careers there’s no comparison. Henry is the best player in premier league history there’s no way Griezmann has come close to that level. And Benzema last phase at Madrid was just phenomenal. I like Griezmann and do feel he’s severely underrated but he’s not at that level.
I think with Zidane it's overlooked that most of the names people bring us as greats tend to be wide attackers and strikers, he played all of his career centrally and deeper than the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, R9 etc. and still had the elegance/touch/trickery. He's somewhat unique in that regard I think it's very rare to see a player who plays as 10 or even 8 at points at his technical level combined with the physical.
I don't agree with the Ibra shout, people forget just how skilled he was as a young player. This is a 6ft 5 bloke who could dribble at the highest level when he was young without being that fast, which makes it almost more impressive than the likes of R9, Ronaldo etc, who had all the skills but also could just knock it past their man and bomb on. His evolution is one of the most complete of any No9 ever, his issue was his agent and him wanted the big bucks and so he never really had the longevity at one of the elite clubs that he needed to have to be truly appreciated and his long stint at PSG will never be looked on in the same way as in the major 3 leagues.
The whole 'lion' mentality things is a gimmick now for marketing/PR (and it works to be fair) but he's one of the best strikers of all time in my opinion, don't let being annoyed by that cloud objectivity.
Underrated: Mason Mount
Overrated: Haaland
Overrated: Haaland
Overrated:
1. Zidane: He was elegant and eye catching but he was never the top 5 ever level which is claimed by some.
2. Pique: He was one of the principal beneficiaries of tikitaka; it shielded him from direct encounters with forwards. Slow, poor positioning, easily beaten 1v1. I remember so many goals conceded by Barcelona in big games purely because of how poor he was. Yet, he is talked about as a great defender.
3. Rashford: Never the world beating talent some claim him to be.
4. R9: This is a controversial one. He was amazing before his knee gave away but the nostalgia makes some to elevate him to an even higher level. He is slightly overrated although still an all time great talent.
5. Cristiano: Another controversial one. He is an all time great but some tend to overrate him even beyond that by exaggerating some of his ability outside goalscoring. For me, most of his greatness across his career has been about scoring goals (long distance, free kicks, headers, counters, poached goals name it) not creating or dribbling as claimed by some. His 06/07 was amazing though.
Underrated:
1. Griezmann: A very important player for club and country.
2. Scholes: in England he is underrated.
3. Roy Keane: People only remember the hard man but he had far more yo his game than is given credit for.
1. Zidane: He was elegant and eye catching but he was never the top 5 ever level which is claimed by some.
2. Pique: He was one of the principal beneficiaries of tikitaka; it shielded him from direct encounters with forwards. Slow, poor positioning, easily beaten 1v1. I remember so many goals conceded by Barcelona in big games purely because of how poor he was. Yet, he is talked about as a great defender.
3. Rashford: Never the world beating talent some claim him to be.
4. R9: This is a controversial one. He was amazing before his knee gave away but the nostalgia makes some to elevate him to an even higher level. He is slightly overrated although still an all time great talent.
5. Cristiano: Another controversial one. He is an all time great but some tend to overrate him even beyond that by exaggerating some of his ability outside goalscoring. For me, most of his greatness across his career has been about scoring goals (long distance, free kicks, headers, counters, poached goals name it) not creating or dribbling as claimed by some. His 06/07 was amazing though.
Underrated:
1. Griezmann: A very important player for club and country.
2. Scholes: in England he is underrated.
3. Roy Keane: People only remember the hard man but he had far more yo his game than is given credit for.
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Griezmann has been one of the best player in the world this season, yet someone like Bellingham is the one getting Ballon d’or shouts.
100% underrated and people can’t see that a lot of the players they’re overrating and underrating is based on narrative, players who play for clubs like Atletico rather than Real get undefeated, but look at each players performances without the narratives of playing for a bigger club, media hype, etc and you get a fairer picture.
100% underrated and people can’t see that a lot of the players they’re overrating and underrating is based on narrative, players who play for clubs like Atletico rather than Real get undefeated, but look at each players performances without the narratives of playing for a bigger club, media hype, etc and you get a fairer picture.
Ibrahimovic lacks decisive moments in the knockout stages of the Champions League to be that level and it's not for lack of attempts. Played in the CL constantly and didn't stand out in the latter stages. He had 20 years in the CL and only scored 9 in the knockouts - despite playing for all the big Italian teams, Barca, PSG.
The only really notable goals against a good side were against Arsenal away in 09/10 for Barca - and was soon dropped after that. Scored a few against Chelsea 15/16 on an off-season, tap-in against Barca and a fluke against Man City.
A level below the very best strikers of his generation, never mind other generations.
Overrated - Trent Alexander Arnold, Allison, Van Dyjk.
Underrated - Maguire, Mctomminy, Dalot
Underrated - Maguire, Mctomminy, Dalot
I think with his starting point(187/85) he was as creative and good at dribbling as they come. His size automatically makes it impossible to be a Messi/Neymar/type, but when he competes against other 185cm + guys he is the only one at that level. Even though we don't have weight/height classes in football, very different bodies still have different limitations of course.