Mourinho's real task at Utd - An overpaid, over-hyped squad that needs fixing

Rhyme Animal

Thinks Di Zerbi is better than Pep.
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Originally posted this in the Shaw thread, but thought the wages vs attitude point was more fitting in it's own discussion. It highlights Mourinho's attitude toward wage structure and just how far gone the situation he's walked into actually is...

Think Jones, think Smalling - good, English players hyped and over-paid for (by Utd), but then 'failing to deliver', except they didn't 'fail to deliver', they're just not as good as they were hyped to be.

Shaw's a good left-back, but not at the level to be starting for an elite club (which Utd are), and certainly not at a level befitting of his wage level here - something which Mourinho quite rightly took issue with, which not many people seem to remember...

"Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho claims he pulled out of a bid to sign Luke Shaw because his wage demands would have "killed" the club..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/28498546

If Mourinho didn't think Shaw was worth those wages back then, what do you reckon he thinks now...? Not just about Shaw but about the whole squad he's walked into?

IMO Mourinho's right. We overpaid for Shaw AND put him on ridiculous wages that will only spoil a young player - see his attitude now.

There are better full-backs in the league earning less than Shaw, hell, there are better full-backs at United earning less than Shaw, and that's gotta bother the manager - it'd bother me if I was in charge.

Of course Shaw's the tip of the iceberg -

Rooney is paid more than Aguero
Memphis Depay earns more than Coutinho
Schweinsteiger earns more than Diego Costa
Mkhitaryan earns more than Payet

It's ridiculous, and I could go on. We're getting mugged off as a club, and any manager who's serious about succeeding here would demand more for his money.

Just like SAF had to weed out the drinking culture, there's a culture at the club now of overpaid, over-hyped serial losers who instead of running through walls just to wear the shirt (and earn the feck off great wages that Utd dole out) whinge to the press and oust managers.

I'm glad the dressing room is shifting from player power to manager power, it's long over-due.

And if reinstating that balance means upsetting a few overpaid, under-performing players, so be it.
 
We will always have an overpaid squad because we are the richest club - the problem is that we aren't good enough, not that we are paying them too much money compared to other players. I don't think the the fact that Depay earns £150.000 instead of £100.000 affects his performances (I just picked some random numbers) - he wouldn't be a better player if he earned less. He would simply cost us slightly less.

To blame Shaw's attitude after his serious injury is just stupid. He might have a mental block - or a mental problem - but that is not the same as saying he has an attitude problem because he earns a lot of money.
 
lysglimt said:
We will always have an overpaid squad because we are the richest club - the problem is that we aren't good enough, not that we are paying them too much money compared to other players. I don't think the the fact that Depay earns £150.000 instead of £100.000 affects his performances (I just picked some random numbers) - he wouldn't be a better player if he earned less. He would simply cost us slightly less.
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It's about what we've been accepting, mate.

If Aguero was here, performing as he does at City and being paid 350k a week, I'd welcome it.

We're the richest club - that should mean we get the best players and pay them the most. Instead we've been paying average talent elite wages and it's caused a rotten dressing room.

Hopefully Jose is given free reign to reshape the squad into something more fitting for an elite club.
 
I actually do think overpaying wages has affected them negatively. Of course we'll need to pay certain players a lot, but we should bring our structure in line with other top 4 teams for squad players especially.
 
VeevaVee said:
I actually do think overpaying wages has affected them negatively. Of course we'll need to pay certain players a lot, but we should bring our structure in line with other top 4 teams for squad players especially.
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Problem is that we've been going through turmoil, have had CL football on and off since SAF left and generally Manchester is a harder sell to players compared to London or Spain so we have to outbid the other teams in terms of wages to be the most attractive proposition. If the player works out then no amount of wages is too much really. if they don't work out we've shot ourselves in the foot and can't move them on. If Mourinho brings titles again we might hold a bit more sway without needing to break the bank and can offer the going rate.
 
IMO Mourinho's right. We overpaid for Shaw AND put him on ridiculous wages that will only spoil a young player - see his attitude now.

do you actually no Shaw personally? and actually has a poor attitude ?



There are better full-backs in the league earning less than Shaw, hell, there are better full-backs at United earning less than Shaw, and that's gotta bother the manager - it'd bother me if I was in charge.

There are better managers in the league who will be earning less then Jose it happens, they are all payed to much for what they do.

Just like SAF had to weed out the drinking culture, there's a culture at the club now of overpaid, over-hyped serial losers who instead of running through walls just to wear the shirt (and earn the feck off great wages that Utd dole out) whinge to the press and oust managers.

Jose seems to be the one doing all the moaning from what i can see. he dont even look like he has a plan when you watch most games.

 
The reason why we pay higher wages than told deem appropriate is the same as the reason why we overpay in the transfer market for players. Changing it will time but is probably doable. As @lysglimt said though, earning less wouldn't make them better at what they do, it'd just save the club some money. Nothing that affects on field results which is all I care about.
 
GBBQ said:
Problem is that we've been going through turmoil, have had CL football on and off since SAF left and generally Manchester is a harder sell to players compared to London or Spain so we have to outbid the other teams in terms of wages to be the most attractive proposition. If the player works out then no amount of wages is too much really. if they don't work out we've shot ourselves in the foot and can't move them on. If Mourinho brings titles again we might hold a bit more sway without needing to break the bank and can offer the going rate.
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Yeah, that's the issue and it's a tough balance. I don't have a problem paying top wedge for world class where you might be competing with the big dogs, but the slightly lesser players should be on less so as to be in line with other top teams imo. It does seem to have taken the umph out of them, among many other things I'm sure.
 
The OP is quite accurate. There are some aspects tough, that i don't agree with. The wages and prices we pay are dictated by our stature - its not nice but there's nothing we can do about it without risking loosing major talents. On the other hand, players who come here expect ridiculous wages only because we want them. That is clear, i won't insist on that. The comparison between Rooney and Aguero or Payet and Miki is obsolete from the same reasons. No matter how much better Aguero is, Rooney brings more money to this club with his name and the wages reflect that.

On the quality front, i don't know. I can't really blame the decision makers. Shaw was always going away for that price. The fact he isn't performing, and worse - he doesnt look like quality, is what is worrying but i wouldn't accuse anyone. Same for Sneiderlin and co. What i dislike is playing Shaw when Borthwick-Jackson has been endlessly better. Or Rooney when Mata/Herera are obviously better as a duo.

I am glad Jose is speaking out, they are not performing and it's been 2 years now already.
 
OP is correct imo. There's nothing wrong in overpaying for world class talent - in order to beat off the competition. Our problem stems from paying non world class players a world class wage.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Originally posted this in the Shaw thread, but thought the wages vs attitude point was more fitting in it's own discussion. It highlights Mourinho's attitude toward wage structure and just how far gone the situation he's walked into actually is...

... there's a culture at the club now of overpaid, over-hyped serial losers who don't want to go running through walls just to wear the shirt ...
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This more than anything else (changed the original sentence from the OP). If we take the wage problem out of the equation, I think it is this that's the root case - players not realizing what it means to play for Manchester fecking United. Some of them do (the senior players, yes, including Rooney), and that's why I reckon Mourinho has kept them around (Carrick's still class TBH). You can say "the mentality has to come from the top" all you want, the reality is if there are a majority who simple don't give a damn, nobody, not even Fergie would be able to get the most out of them. These players need to be shipped out fast. Ferguson's serial winners are not there any more and all the players except a few since Moyes have been mediocre at best who haven't realized what it means to play for United.

And this is the rot that has set in since Moyes took over. LVG was just too different from what the squad was used to and I think this constant change has been toxic for the club. Even if Mourinho fails to win anything or get top 4, we should still stick by him for a few more years. There needs to be some stability and all the wrong players need to be shipped out and then build a character. It's not going to be easy and not going to be quick. Splashing cash doesn't make it easier, it just starts the process. It is just the way the market is and just the way football works now. It shouldn't be used as a stick to beat managers and players with. Just be thankful we can afford to spend/waste a ton of cash to get things right.
 
Udayan K. said:
This more than anything else (changed the original sentence from the OP). If we take the wage problem out of the equation, I think it is this that's the root case - players not realizing what it means to play for Manchester fecking United. Some of them do (the senior players, yes, including Rooney), and that's why I reckon Mourinho has kept them around (Carrick's still class TBH). You can say "the mentality has to come from the top" all you want, the reality is if there are a majority who simple don't give a damn, nobody, not even Fergie would be able to get the most out of them. These players need to be shipped out fast. Ferguson's serial winners are not there any more and all the players except a few since Moyes have been mediocre at best who haven't realized what it means to play for United.

And this is the rot that has set in since Moyes took over. LVG was just too different from what the squad was used to and I think this constant change has been toxic for the club. Even if Mourinho fails to win anything or get top 4, we should still stick by him for a few more years. There needs to be some stability and all the wrong players need to be shipped out and then build a character. It's not going to be easy and not going to be quick. Splashing cash doesn't make it easier, it just starts the process. It is just the way the market is and just the way football works now. It shouldn't be used as a stick to beat managers and players with. Just be thankful we can afford to spend/waste a ton of cash to get things right.
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Good analysis - sums most up most of the relevant issues
 
Rhyme Animal said:
"Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho claims he pulled out of a bid to sign Luke Shaw because his wage demands would have "killed" the club..."
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I totally forgot about this. I'm now understanding why he keeps on singling out Shaw.

Fracture90 said:
You think that us getting a director of football world be a bad idea?
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I think it's a good idea. It's more one role though - need the entire setup to be geared towards it.
 
United need to overpay in this particular moment because they are not a contender and pressure from status is massive. I can bet the Darmians of the squad, average or more than average players trying their best, are having nightmares week in - week out. United have a lot of Darmians and a number of overpaid stars that stars are not anymore or not yet.
 
Udayan K. said:
This more than anything else (changed the original sentence from the OP). If we take the wage problem out of the equation, I think it is this that's the root case - players not realizing what it means to play for Manchester fecking United. Some of them do (the senior players, yes, including Rooney), and that's why I reckon Mourinho has kept them around (Carrick's still class TBH). You can say "the mentality has to come from the top" all you want, the reality is if there are a majority who simple don't give a damn, nobody, not even Fergie would be able to get the most out of them. These players need to be shipped out fast. Ferguson's serial winners are not there any more and all the players except a few since Moyes have been mediocre at best who haven't realized what it means to play for United.

And this is the rot that has set in since Moyes took over. LVG was just too different from what the squad was used to and I think this constant change has been toxic for the club. Even if Mourinho fails to win anything or get top 4, we should still stick by him for a few more years. There needs to be some stability and all the wrong players need to be shipped out and then build a character. It's not going to be easy and not going to be quick. Splashing cash doesn't make it easier, it just starts the process. It is just the way the market is and just the way football works now. It shouldn't be used as a stick to beat managers and players with. Just be thankful we can afford to spend/waste a ton of cash to get things right.
Click to expand...

Of course the mentality has to come from the top. Remember, Roy Keanes character was forged by the likes of Brian Clough when he was at Nottingham Forest. It is what made him who he was; playing for a manager who spoke his mind, who didn't mind upsetting the players and this was Roy Keane down to a tee. As for Sir Alex Ferguson not being able to get the most out of them, we will never know, however, I feel that we are doing Sir Alex a disservice because there is no other manager in the world who could motivate players like he could and he also had a helping hand by his captains. Let us make no mistake, Sir Alex gave the orders to Keane and he let every player know what he wanted as captain and what the manager wanted too.

Secondly, who are these players that "need to shipped out fast"? Thirdly, in spite of what we think or know, I think the rot started a great deal earlier, or before David Moyes was appointed. The answer we will never know and in spite of the fact that we scored more goals per game than under LVG or Mourinho, defensively, we were terrible and it seemed that the defence aspect was lost so, we effectively lost the balance of the team.

As for Mourinho, he has to get top 4 or win a trophy as far as I'm concerned simply because his margin for error to win some silverware or get a top 4 place is small compared to the margin of error that Moyes was afforded. Remember, comparing the managerial careers of Moyes and Mourinho is basically apples and oranges. They cannot be compared so, if we had won 1 trophy under Moyes, I am sure that most fans would have been ecstatic, however, should we have got anywhere around 6th-8th place in the Premier league, we wouldn't have been disappointed simply because we knew what to expect. Mourinho, in his 750+ matches as manager has only lost 14% of all of those games (compare Sir Alex who had a record of 17% with Manchester United) and that tells you how much margin for error he has i.e. very little. I am sure that if nothing is won after two seasons, he will either get the bullet, or he will leave.
 
GBBQ said:
Problem is that we've been going through turmoil, have had CL football on and off since SAF left and generally Manchester is a harder sell to players compared to London or Spain so we have to outbid the other teams in terms of wages to be the most attractive proposition. If the player works out then no amount of wages is too much really. if they don't work out we've shot ourselves in the foot and can't move them on. If Mourinho brings titles again we might hold a bit more sway without needing to break the bank and can offer the going rate.
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Yeah, all very true. Which begs the question - why didn't we buy more when Ferguson was coming to the end? Surely he knew the best time to stock up on good players was then, when we had cl football and attract players for footballing rather than financial reasons?
 
woodhouseparkred said:
Of course the mentality has to come from the top. Remember, Roy Keanes character was forged by the likes of Brian Clough when he was at Nottingham Forest. It is what made him who he was; playing for a manager who spoke his mind, who didn't mind upsetting the players and this was Roy Keane down to a tee. As for Sir Alex Ferguson not being able to get the most out of them, we will never know, however, I feel that we are doing Sir Alex a disservice because there is no other manager in the world who could motivate players like he could and he also had a helping hand by his captains. Let us make no mistake, Sir Alex gave the orders to Keane and he let every player know what he wanted as captain and what the manager wanted too.

Secondly, who are these players that "need to shipped out fast"? Thirdly, in spite of what we think or know, I think the rot started a great deal earlier, or before David Moyes was appointed. The answer we will never know and in spite of the fact that we scored more goals per game than under LVG or Mourinho, defensively, we were terrible and it seemed that the defence aspect was lost so, we effectively lost the balance of the team.

As for Mourinho, he has to get top 4 or win a trophy as far as I'm concerned simply because his margin for error to win some silverware or get a top 4 place is small compared to the margin of error that Moyes was afforded. Remember, comparing the managerial careers of Moyes and Mourinho is basically apples and oranges. They cannot be compared so, if we had won 1 trophy under Moyes, I am sure that most fans would have been ecstatic, however, should we have got anywhere around 6th-8th place in the Premier league, we wouldn't have been disappointed simply because we knew what to expect. Mourinho, in his 750+ matches as manager has only lost 14% of all of those games (compare Sir Alex who had a record of 17% with Manchester United) and that tells you how much margin for error he has i.e. very little. I am sure that if nothing is won after two seasons, he will either get the bullet, or he will leave.
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1) That's a bit naïve to think Brian Clough single handedly carved Roy Keane. Roy Keane became the player he was because he was Roy Keane, someone who responded positively to the "treatment" given by his manager. There is no one-size-fits-all formula that a Brian Clough could use on anyone and everyone. Why didn't Clough come up with more Keanes? The truth is not everyone can rise up to the occasion and respond to the manager and those how don't, need to be moved on instead of replacing the manager. Do you cut your foot off if the shoe doesn't fit? Agreed, Ferguson was a master at getting most out of the players. Maybe he would have succeeded but whenever he realized he couldn't, he would get new players in to replace the existing ones. His league win in 2013 was the greatest example of this. Sure, better than most teams in the country but you will definitely get found out in Europe, which brings me to say -

2) Maybe you are right, the rot set in earlier than Moyes's appointment. Once Ferguson left, the players just stopped responding because it was David Moyes, Everton manager FFS! And then LVG just changed a lot of things too much. Again, if you think Smalling (regardless of his recent performances), Jones, Young, Darmian, Fellaini, Lingard (as much as I want him because Academy!), Shaw (after the recent performances), Depay, Schneiderlein would walk into an elite European team, you're having a laugh. These players aren't good enough and/or don't know what it means to play for United. Yeah it is all down to the manager, sure, but this is football, you can't say a bad workman blames his tools, especially when you know the workman has proven to be good before.

3) Yes we expect a lot from Mourinho and yes, we cannot compare Moyes and Mourinho. But with Moyes, we fell from the top. With Mourinho, we need to start from the bottom, unlike most clubs you are comparing United with, except Liverpool. Klopp has done so well that no one expected to see Liverpool top of the table. Why getting Mourinho and splashing a lot of cash should see us automatically go on top right away is beyond me. Mourinho needs to build some character, re-build the club in one sense. That's going to take time and it will be worth it.
 
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My apologies, I will pollute the thread discussing a boring technicality which I believe is true:

A player at United has effectively two contracts with the club, or at least most have. One is the actual salary, while the other is an arrangement for image rights (I think it is called). The latter will always have some sort of correlation with our brand and sponsorship income. No player will accept a lower fee from their image rights when they know the club is raking in a fortune.

If we stop paying competitive money for image rights, the players might refuse. Which supposedly is hurtful for our own business. I believe we've had examples of this in the PL, with players signing for agencies that manage those rights instead.

The source were I learned this was the Annual Report iirc.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Just like SAF had to weed out the drinking culture, there's a culture at the club now of overpaid, over-hyped serial losers who instead of running through walls just to wear the shirt (and earn the feck off great wages that Utd dole out) whinge to the press and oust managers.
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Underachieving has become the norm unfortunately.
An average player will come to MUFC and fans will herald him as a superstar, when in reality, he isn't.
These current set of players are 4th/5th place (as proven in the last 2 seasons).
With a bit of luck, Jose can get our fragile darlings to perform at a higher level. Otherwise, most likely, he'll tell them that they are surplus to requirements and can find a new club in the Summer.

For the record, I have no problems paying high wages for players who perform at a high level. But when you have players like Memphis on huge wages, you have to wonder what we were thinking, when we agreed to this lunacy.
 
Udayan K. said:
1) That's a bit naïve to think Brian Clough single handedly carved Roy Keane. Roy Keane became the player he was because he was Roy Keane, someone who responded positively to the "treatment" given by his manager. There is no one-size-fits-all formula that a Brian Clough could use on anyone and everyone. Why didn't Clough come up with more Keanes? The truth is not everyone can rise up to the occasion and respond to the manager and those how don't, need to be moved on instead of replacing the manager. Do you cut your foot off if the shoe doesn't fit? Agreed, Ferguson was a master at getting most out of the players. Maybe he would have succeeded but whenever he realized he couldn't, he would get new players in to replace the existing ones. His league win in 2013 was the greatest example of this. Sure, better than most teams in the country but you will definitely get found out in Europe, which brings me to say -

2) Maybe you are right, the rot set in earlier than Moyes's appointment. Once Ferguson left, the players just stopped responding because it was David Moyes, Everton manager FFS! And then LVG just changed a lot of things too much. Again, if you think Smalling (regardless of his recent performances), Jones, Young, Darmian, Fellaini, Lingard (as much as I want him because Academy!), Shaw (after the recent performances), Depay, Schneiderlein would walk into an elite European team, you're having a laugh. These players aren't good enough and/or don't know what it means to play for United. Yeah it is all down to the manager, sure, but this is football, you can't say a bad workman blames his tools, especially when you know the workman has proven to be good before.

3) Yes we expect a lot from Mourinho and yes, we cannot compare Moyes and Mourinho. But with Moyes, we fell from the top. With Mourinho, we need to start from the bottom, unlike most clubs you are comparing United with, except Liverpool. Klopp has done so well that no one expected to see Liverpool top of the table. Why getting Mourinho and splashing a lot of cash should see us automatically go on top right away is beyond me. Mourinho needs to build some character, re-build the club in one sense. That's going to take time and it will be worth it.
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First of all, it is simply an opinion, just like it wasn't Sir Alex who made Ronaldo, it was Ronaldo who made himself into the player he is today. Just like it was Messi himself who made himself into the magical player that he has always been. You have to concede that Sir Alex, throughout his whole Manchester United career managed some fantastic players and no-one can ever deny that. He brought out the best in almost every single one of them apart from the likes of Anderson, Djemba X2, Kleberson et al. Which does bring me to this and the bolded part. Why is it that the only black mark against him was the 2 wins in all the years he tried for the Champions league, in spite of having quality players?

With regards to David Moyes, I don't think anyone could have ever had high expectations for him. I most certainly didn't and if you thought at the start that we were going to win a trophy under David Moyes, then you are clearly having a laugh because it simply was NEVER going to happen. I even think that Wayne Rooney was not upto it too. The season before Sir Alex left us, Wayne Rooneys goal per game record stood at:

2011-12 - 0.82 goals per game under Sir Alex Ferguson.
2012-13 - 0.51 goals per game under Sir Alex Ferguson when we last won the league, further to more, it was more Javier Hernandez and Robin Van Persie who won us the league because
Javier Hernandez scored at 0.82 goals per game and Robin Van Persie with 0.75 goals per game.
2013-14 - 0.51 goals per game under David Moyes with Robin Van Persie being the best of the lot with 0.78 goals per game.
2014-15 - 0.38 goals per game under Louis Van Gaal.
2015-16 - 0.39 goals per game under Louis Van Gaal.
2016-17 - 0.20 goals per game under José Mourinho so far.

All this equates to an overall average goals per game (since the season before Sir Alex left upto now) of 0.46. I am sorry, but we can agree that David Moyes is a midtable manager and we cannot complain really, he knew it, we all knew it, it was just Sir Alex who didn't. However, the point I am making is that there was a period where Sir Alex was toying the idea of getting rid of Wayne Rooney and it should have happened, since he is no Robin Van Persie, Thierry Henry, Alan Shearer or even Didier Drogba for that matter. So, at present, if Mourinho wants to stay, he needs to get rid of Rooney since he has had his time here and he won't get any better. Other players do get better, but he simply won't and as a captain, he is and please excuse the language, shite. He lacks the motivation to lead the team, he is not dynamic enough, he lacks the tactical nous, he is simply trying to emulate great players like Scholes or Xavi in being a magical crosser of a ball and he can't. His first touch, well, again shocking. Don't you think it is about time to stop paying shocking, exorbitant wages to him? Imagine what Shearer would have been paid per week if he had played today.

As for Mourinho, just like I did with David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal, I will give him time, but we all need to understand that having such managerial credentials as José Mourinho, it comes with a great deal of pressure to win. As it stands, his record from last season at Chelsea upto today has been terrible. His last 37 games as manager stands as:

Played 37 games.
Won 15 games (40.5% games won)
Drawn 7 games (18.9% games drawn)
Lost 15 games (40.5 games lost) For information, the losing percentage for David Moyes in 51 games is 29.41%)

Mourinho has only lost 106 games as manager out of 769 professional matches with a losing percentage of (13.7%) and a win percentage of 66%. Thirdly, did I actually say that any of the players we have would walk into an "elite European team", or are you putting words into my mouth. At the end of the day, Moyes had his day, but I don't like the Fallacy of the single cause i.e. David Moyes when there could have been many other causes. That is too easy to do.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I'm glad the dressing room is shifting from player power to manager power, it's long over-due.
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Did you identify this as a problem when van Gaal was in charge? Jose Mourinho invested £140 mill, and went for a quick fix in Zlatan. Still, he has not managed to do better than van Gaal did last season for the first elleven games. And van Gaal was not exactly maximizing the potential of our squad. Mourinhos results so far has been underwhelming.
 
andersj said:
Did you identify this as a problem when van Gaal was in charge? Jose Mourinho invested £140 mill, and went for a quick fix in Zlatan. Still, he has not managed to do better than van Gaal did last season for the first elleven games. And van Gaal was not exactly maximizing the potential of our squad. Mourinhos results so far has been underwhelming.
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Here is an image which tells you the story of what he has done so far this season. It is only a small sample, but he is only 1 match away (possibly against Arsenal) from going over 31% in loss percentages. As a manager, he has never known to have a 15%-20% loss percentage, let alone a 30% (to be precise, 31.78%.) The match against Arsenal will take him past Moyes for worst loss percentage as manager of Manchester United in the current period.

http://prntscr.com/d59ouu

He did spend a great deal of money, and he is making sure that players feel uncomfortable in that their places are not safe. I just hope he gets rid of those who are clearly past it i.e. Wayne Rooney. He has been a great servant, but his desire and will to win left him one year before Sir Alex left and it was thanks to Hernandez and Van Persie that we won the league whilst Rooney was just running around earning his fat paycheck contributing next to nothing.
 
From what ive seen Shaw has a good attitude. It looks like hes wary when it comes to injuries and I don't blame him after his horror leg break last year.
 
Silverman said:
From what ive seen Shaw has a good attitude. It looks like hes wary when it comes to injuries and I don't blame him after his horror leg break last year.
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This is exactly what I think too. We didn't buy him at the start simply to make up the numbers. I think it is clearly a mental thing and perhaps he doesn't have the character to get over that particular nasty incident yet, however, just as those who think he is rubbish and should be sold (yet by the same token want Mourinho to stay in spite of the results) he should be given a fair shot because I think he has a great deal to offer.
 
Udayan K. said:
1) That's a bit naïve to think Brian Clough single handedly carved Roy Keane. Roy Keane became the player he was because he was Roy Keane, someone who responded positively to the "treatment" given by his manager. There is no one-size-fits-all formula that a Brian Clough could use on anyone and everyone. Why didn't Clough come up with more Keanes? The truth is not everyone can rise up to the occasion and respond to the manager and those how don't, need to be moved on instead of replacing the manager. Do you cut your foot off if the shoe doesn't fit? Agreed, Ferguson was a master at getting most out of the players. Maybe he would have succeeded but whenever he realized he couldn't, he would get new players in to replace the existing ones. His league win in 2013 was the greatest example of this. Sure, better than most teams in the country but you will definitely get found out in Europe, which brings me to say -

2) Maybe you are right, the rot set in earlier than Moyes's appointment. Once Ferguson left, the players just stopped responding because it was David Moyes, Everton manager FFS! And then LVG just changed a lot of things too much. Again, if you think Smalling (regardless of his recent performances), Jones, Young, Darmian, Fellaini, Lingard (as much as I want him because Academy!), Shaw (after the recent performances), Depay, Schneiderlein would walk into an elite European team, you're having a laugh. These players aren't good enough and/or don't know what it means to play for United. Yeah it is all down to the manager, sure, but this is football, you can't say a bad workman blames his tools, especially when you know the workman has proven to be good before.

3) Yes we expect a lot from Mourinho and yes, we cannot compare Moyes and Mourinho. But with Moyes, we fell from the top. With Mourinho, we need to start from the bottom, unlike most clubs you are comparing United with, except Liverpool. Klopp has done so well that no one expected to see Liverpool top of the table. Why getting Mourinho and splashing a lot of cash should see us automatically go on top right away is beyond me. Mourinho needs to build some character, re-build the club in one sense. That's going to take time and it will be worth it.
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Elite European teams apart, you currently cited Luke Shaw as a player that should be shipped out (after recent performances according to you), yet I have just looked at the player ratings who were voted by those on the forum and it seem that there are only two who are better; Eric Bailly (6.6), Antonio Valencia (6.4) and Luke Shaw (6.1) As far as I'm concerned, those who voted have clearly voted with their brains and given a rating with regards to performances i.e. if a player is terrible, then a bad rating, if a player is good, a good rating. You cite the likes of Young, Schneiderlein or Jones (first game in 11 months was against Swansea last week so, a little bit of flexibility is needed here.)

Furthermore, you don't even cite the names Rojo (I guess he is the sort of player that would get into an "elite European team") yet his rating with regards to those who voted (supporters on redcafe whose opinions I respect) are a complete and utter shambles. Rojo has an average rating of 5.0 compared to 5.4 for Fellaini. Blind is held up in high-esteem too, yet his rating is lower than Shaws too. Not bad from a player who has tried to come back from a double fracture of the Tibia and Fibula and try to make a fist of it.
 
Is United really overhyped when quite a lot of people were predicting that we'd even fail to make it to Top 2/3 this season? Looking at forums for clubs like Barca, Bayern, Juve, our players are pretty shit too according to them, how can United be overrated? :lol:
 
MounchesterUtd said:
Is United really overhyped when quite a lot of people were predicting that we'd even fail to make it to Top 2/3 this season? Looking at forums for clubs like Barca, Bayern, Juve, our players are pretty shit too according to them, how can United be overrated? :lol:
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Not at all. We have the players, let us be clear about that. However, the machine is clearly not clicking into gear for one reason or another. Yes, some will say that it was Moyes fault and yes, he was partially to blame, but I found that a striker who no longer has the will to score, neither the motivation to score yet willing to collect his £300,000 per week shocking. Sir Alex should have sold Rooney, kept Hernandez and Van Persie and possibly either try to continue to develop Welbeck or look for another striker of high-quality. At the moment, when we only have a pensioner scoring goals and a Rooney who has scored 2 goals in his 10 games played, it doesn't matter who we have as manager, the problem lies with him. If he cannot get his act together, then it is time he moved on, because I don't want him breaking Sir Bobbys record when he is not worthy.
 
No chance are we overrated/overhyped. Our squad depth is not very good, but our strongest XI on paper is actually a fantastic team. It's definitely a top 2 team in the PL.
 
iHicksy said:
OP is correct imo. There's nothing wrong in overpaying for world class talent - in order to beat off the competition. Our problem stems from paying non world class players a world class wage.
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It's been a tough sell bringing proper world class talent here the last few years.
 
woodhouseparkred said:
First of all, it is simply an opinion, just like it wasn't Sir Alex who made Ronaldo, it was Ronaldo who made himself into the player he is today. Just like it was Messi himself who made himself into the magical player that he has always been. You have to concede that Sir Alex, throughout his whole Manchester United career managed some fantastic players and no-one can ever deny that. He brought out the best in almost every single one of them apart from the likes of Anderson, Djemba X2, Kleberson et al. Which does bring me to this and the bolded part. Why is it that the only black mark against him was the 2 wins in all the years he tried for the Champions league, in spite of having quality players?

With regards to David Moyes, I don't think anyone could have ever had high expectations for him. I most certainly didn't and if you thought at the start that we were going to win a trophy under David Moyes, then you are clearly having a laugh because it simply was NEVER going to happen. I even think that Wayne Rooney was not upto it too. The season before Sir Alex left us, Wayne Rooneys goal per game record stood at:

2011-12 - 0.82 goals per game under Sir Alex Ferguson.
2012-13 - 0.51 goals per game under Sir Alex Ferguson when we last won the league, further to more, it was more Javier Hernandez and Robin Van Persie who won us the league because
Javier Hernandez scored at 0.82 goals per game and Robin Van Persie with 0.75 goals per game.
2013-14 - 0.51 goals per game under David Moyes with Robin Van Persie being the best of the lot with 0.78 goals per game.
2014-15 - 0.38 goals per game under Louis Van Gaal.
2015-16 - 0.39 goals per game under Louis Van Gaal.
2016-17 - 0.20 goals per game under José Mourinho so far.

All this equates to an overall average goals per game (since the season before Sir Alex left upto now) of 0.46. I am sorry, but we can agree that David Moyes is a midtable manager and we cannot complain really, he knew it, we all knew it, it was just Sir Alex who didn't. However, the point I am making is that there was a period where Sir Alex was toying the idea of getting rid of Wayne Rooney and it should have happened, since he is no Robin Van Persie, Thierry Henry, Alan Shearer or even Didier Drogba for that matter. So, at present, if Mourinho wants to stay, he needs to get rid of Rooney since he has had his time here and he won't get any better. Other players do get better, but he simply won't and as a captain, he is and please excuse the language, shite. He lacks the motivation to lead the team, he is not dynamic enough, he lacks the tactical nous, he is simply trying to emulate great players like Scholes or Xavi in being a magical crosser of a ball and he can't. His first touch, well, again shocking. Don't you think it is about time to stop paying shocking, exorbitant wages to him? Imagine what Shearer would have been paid per week if he had played today.

As for Mourinho, just like I did with David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal, I will give him time, but we all need to understand that having such managerial credentials as José Mourinho, it comes with a great deal of pressure to win. As it stands, his record from last season at Chelsea upto today has been terrible. His last 37 games as manager stands as:

Played 37 games.
Won 15 games (40.5% games won)
Drawn 7 games (18.9% games drawn)
Lost 15 games (40.5 games lost) For information, the losing percentage for David Moyes in 51 games is 29.41%)

Mourinho has only lost 106 games as manager out of 769 professional matches with a losing percentage of (13.7%) and a win percentage of 66%. Thirdly, did I actually say that any of the players we have would walk into an "elite European team", or are you putting words into my mouth. At the end of the day, Moyes had his day, but I don't like the Fallacy of the single cause i.e. David Moyes when there could have been many other causes. That is too easy to do.
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Where did I say it was Roy Keane alone who made himself? It takes a perfect marriage between a manager and a player (and sometimes the club) to get the best out of any of them - all things need to come together. The Class of 92 is a perfect example. The Barcelona squad is another. You don't see a Class of 92 often and you don't see that Barcelona squad often.

Yes, Ferguson worked with some great players and managed to bring out the best out of them, who's denying that? I don't quite understand your question underlined above. But I will make it clearer of what I was trying to say earlier: even after Ferguson getting the best out of his players, they were good enough only to win the league, not in Europe. Does that make sense? I am, infact, agreeing with you when you said the rot probably set in much before Moyes was appointed.

What are you on about? All I said in my first post was that some players don't get it what it means to play for United. The only reason I brought Moyes and LVG into the discussion was to illustrate how they didn't inspire the players enough and/or changed too many things. We finally have a manager who is NOT a mid table level manager, NOT retiring in 3 years, and NOT playing dull football. We finally have a manager who we know can build some character around the team and win things and therefore he needs to be given time. You don't have to agree with this opinion but your post was just basically saying how we cannot compare Moyes and Mourinho but then you went on to do the same when in fact I never even compared them in the first post. All I am saying is Mourinho's job is harder than it looks, even for a manager of his caliber and for a manager who has spent as much as he has.

woodhouseparkred said:
Elite European teams apart, you currently cited Luke Shaw as a player that should be shipped out (after recent performances according to you), yet I have just looked at the player ratings who were voted by those on the forum and it seem that there are only two who are better; Eric Bailly (6.6), Antonio Valencia (6.4) and Luke Shaw (6.1) As far as I'm concerned, those who voted have clearly voted with their brains and given a rating with regards to performances i.e. if a player is terrible, then a bad rating, if a player is good, a good rating. You cite the likes of Young, Schneiderlein or Jones (first game in 11 months was against Swansea last week so, a little bit of flexibility is needed here.)

Furthermore, you don't even cite the names Rojo (I guess he is the sort of player that would get into an "elite European team") yet his rating with regards to those who voted (supporters on redcafe whose opinions I respect) are a complete and utter shambles. Rojo has an average rating of 5.0 compared to 5.4 for Fellaini. Blind is held up in high-esteem too, yet his rating is lower than Shaws too. Not bad from a player who has tried to come back from a double fracture of the Tibia and Fibula and try to make a fist of it.
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Missed Rojo entirely, he's not good enough at all. You're being tedious.

Blind is class, I'm truly sorry if this forum and/or you cannot see that. Besides using the ratings on the Cafe to judge who is a better player? Really? The underlined part in your post is enough to tell you what the ratings really stand for - their performances, not their quality. I don't have the data right now but I'm pretty sure di Maria was given a poor rating throughout his time with us. That doesn't make him a bad player similarly how high ratings don't make a player world class.

Shaw didn't play well enough against City (in the league), against Fenerbahce away, did he? Even at his best, I honestly didn't think he was the best full back in the league by a mile. Even then, I admit, he needs to be given a chance because he's young, just coming from an injury and, we don't have a proper left back.
 
lysglimt said:
We will always have an overpaid squad because we are the richest club - the problem is that we aren't good enough, not that we are paying them too much money compared to other players. I don't think the the fact that Depay earns £150.000 instead of £100.000 affects his performances (I just picked some random numbers) - he wouldn't be a better player if he earned less. He would simply cost us slightly less.

To blame Shaw's attitude after his serious injury is just stupid. He might have a mental block - or a mental problem - but that is not the same as saying he has an attitude problem because he earns a lot of money.
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Spot on. We obviously expect full commitment from our players but at the end of the day no physio can tell a player how an injury is feeling. That injury Luke suffered while showing that commitment to us was an injury that ended careers in the not too distant past. He is 21, he'll be hoping to have a career for another 15 years I'm sure, he has to do what's best for him too, if that means avoiding getting pressured into taking pain killing injections to hide an injury then I can accept that.

If I was a betting man I'd say Luke will be with us a lot longer than José will, so it's in the clubs best interests that he protects himself too. The press are awful for trying to portray a player as having an attitude problem if he chooses to voice his injury concerns, remember Sterling in that England camp, got slated.
 
AXVnee7 said:
No chance are we overrated/overhyped. Our squad depth is not very good, but our strongest XI on paper is actually a fantastic team. It's definitely a top 2 team in the PL.
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I disagree. We used to have a team sheet with some of the best names in the world. Now when I look at the lineups I think it's no wonder we aren't top 4. We have a few like that scattered in amongst mediocrity. It should be closer to the other way around.
 
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If my memory served me right, Shaw is just good for his pace and 1 dribble every 2-3 games. Even Rojo can cross and assist from the left.
 
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