Mou's the boss. Poch can do one.

[Bearded One]

Yeah course he would. Think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not criticising managers for spending money. If the funds were available they all would.

I'm just highlighting the difference in spend and how it's a little unfair to expect a Poch to compete.

The rest of your post is a hypothetical scenario of Poch not coping with the added pressure and responsiblty thwt comes with a big budget. I cant join in with that as it is purely hypothetical. Impossible to predict.

Find it a little odd you think I'm belittling what pressure can do to a manager. I haven't even broached the subject.

Neither have I said he will fail if handed a bigger budget. Point is he is unproven at that level. The best we can do now is guess that given his success levels at smaller profile clubs, he'll do even better with bigger resources but that's about it. We simply don't know yet.

For what it's worth I think a move to a bigger club will do his career a world of good and that's not to say he cannot win trophies with Spurs. Problem is its going to be a lot harder. But then let's not kid ourselves, success in the world of soccer has a lot to do with winning stuff and so people will always point you to Atletico under Simeone that almost conquered Europe and won La Liga whilst having arguably the two greatest clubs in history in their league, Klopp that managed to pip Bayern to BundlesLiga twice where you could have easily forgiven Bayern to think it was a fluke had it happened only once.

You see the argument is that Poch has not gotten people to stand and take notice. If I remember correctly, it was Jardim's Monaco and Leverkusen that knocked them out of UCL. Nobody would take notice of you that way.

I do believe that he'll eventually win stuff with the calibre of players he has signed for low fees and the ones he has developed. Players like Lloris, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Rose, Eriksen, Kane, Alli, etc are any manager's dream and he deserves full credit for this but he still has a lot to prove.

The point about pressure was just highlighting the fact that having money to spend a lot of times can be very 'banana-skin' like. When club owners, promoters, directors, etc dole out the money, their expectations go over the roof so it's not really an easy place to be in especially because value in the market is not very easy to come by given the levels of inflation.

The latest manager to bear the brunt in this manner is R. Koeman. Also when clubs know you have money to spend, either having sold a player for huge sums or by having increasing revenues and balances, they'll try to rinse you. Money helps you buy better players but also is a much faster way out of the door should things go awry and club owners usually aren't patient when money has been spent. I'm saying we cannot turn a blind eye to this reality when we evaluate managers of high profile clubs entrusted with relatively bigger budgets like ours.

 

[RedCurry]

Well Poch is doing well by Spurs' standards. Having a player like Kane helps though. None of the other top 6 sides are as dependent on their star man as they are.

 

[sammsky1]

Our win over Spurs, inspired by Mourinho's tactics, looks even more impressive.

As was said in the ECL match thread tonight, it seems as though Zidane did not watch how Mourinho set up against Spurs to make them almost lame, whilst creating enough chances to win without too much fuss.

 

[Foxbatt]

Our win over Spurs, inspired by Mourinho's tactics, looks even more impressive.

As was said in the ECL match thread tonight, it seems as though Zidane did not watch how Mourinho set up against Spurs to make them almost lame, whilst creating enough chances to win without too much scare.

I was amazed to see how Spurs could waltz thru their defence with ease. They never had that opportunity with us. Jose was spot on in his approach in playing against Spurs.

 

[sammsky1]

I was amazed to see how Spurs could waltz thru their defence with ease. They never had that opportunity with us. Jose was spot on in his approach in playing against Spurs.

And yet was vilified by some. I really don't get it.

 

[breakout67]

Our win over Spurs, inspired by Mourinho's tactics, looks even more impressive.

As was said in the ECL match thread tonight, it seems as though Zidane did not watch how Mourinho set up against Spurs to make them almost lame, whilst creating enough chances to win without too much scare.

Completely off the mark there mate, the actual response from our resident experts will be that we should have played like Spurs did against Madrid and spanked them. If Spurs can do it on a low budget then it is disgraceful that we don't etc. etc.

Any and every excuse will be made up to support an agenda.

Don't be surprised if the experts don't pop up until our next game where they can criticize again.

 

[edgar allan]

And yet was vilified by some. I really don't get it.

Great to watch a team playing such aggressive attacking football, we would never have taken Madrid on.

 

[edgar allan]

Completely off the mark there mate, the actual response from our resident experts will be that we should have played like Spurs did against Madrid and spanked them. If Spurs can do it on a low budget then it is disgraceful that we don't etc. etc.

Any and every excuse will be made up to support an agenda.

Don't be surprised if the experts don't pop up until our next game where they can criticize again.

Doesn't it show you what a positive manager and approach can do with a fraction of the resources?

 

[RedStarUnited]

Great to watch a team playing such aggressive attacking football, we would never have taken Madrid on.

Thats the the thing, they didnt take them on, they played great transitions. it was Madrid over committing, That's why Tottenham had so much space to attack. Madrid had 63% possession, 20 shots and 9 on target, all better numbers than Spurs.

I always say this, When a team can not transition well from defence to attack, it will always make a good defensive performance look like a horrible team performance. Harry Kane is better at holding up the ball compared to Lukaku, so when they clear up top it stays there, how many balls did Lukaku lose vs Liverpool that he really shouldnt have?

We play defensive and compound the issue by not being able to build any decent attacks. Spurs have the perfect balance right now.

 

[Foxbatt]

Doesn't it show you what a positive manager and approach can do with a fraction of the resources?

Spurs have been above us from the time SAF left us so it is not surprising that they play better football. It takes time and also new players to win and we have beaten Spurs 1-0 at home at least. If we had played an open game against Spurs we would have lost the match. That is the point of this. It was bad tactics from Madrid to be so open and they got thrashed.

 

[Foxbatt]

Thats the the thing, they didnt take them on, they played great transitions. it was Madrid over committing, That's why Tottenham had so much space to attack. Madrid had 63% possession, 20 shots and 9 on target, all better numbers than Spurs.

I always say this, When a team can not transition well from defence to attack, it will always make a good defensive performance look like a horrible team performance. Harry Kane is better at holding up the ball compared to Lukaku, so when they clear up top it stays there, how many balls did Lukaku lose vs Liverpool that he really shouldnt have?

We play defensive and compound the issue by not being able to build any decent attacks. Spurs have the perfect balance right now.

Spot on. This is why I was surprised when Jose bought Lukaku. He is not a Drogba who can hold the ball. Lukaku's first touch is horrible and he cannot hold the ball so he cannot play the lone striker role. To be honest neither is Zlatan's first touch that good. If we are to play with two wingers ala Martial and Rashford, we need a central striker who can hold the ball. Or change the system with two up front without the wingers.

 

[Sylar]

It was a really good time to play Madrid. But at the same time, you gotta admit, Jose would have gone to make the game as tight as possible. I dont see United winning 3-1 against madrid at home, even if Madrid are missing 3 of their normal back 5. Same as you cant see United destroying Liverpool the way Spurs did even though Liverpools defence is there to be had (home or away).
Im not saying one is right and one is wrong, its just the way it is.

You know what you get from each manager. Im not sure if having Pogba makes a difference in the approach for the big games.

Regardless, Spurs have done really well to win the game. Its a great result, and should see them top their group. (now expected Madrid to come second and draw United in the next round rofl).

 

[Foxbatt]

You are right. We would nick a 1-0 win. But the defending of Real was very poor. Maybe Zidane is not such a good coach as people make him out to be though he has won the CL. De Matteo also won the CL with Chelsea with the team of Villas-Boas.

 

[sammsky1]

Thats the the thing, they didnt take them on, they played great transitions. it was Madrid over committing, That's why Tottenham had so much space to attack. Madrid had 63% possession, 20 shots and 9 on target, all better numbers than Spurs.

I always say this, When a team can not transition well from defence to attack, it will always make a good defensive performance look like a horrible team performance. Harry Kane is better at holding up the ball compared to Lukaku, so when they clear up top it stays there, how many balls did Lukaku lose vs Liverpool that he really shouldn't have?

We play defensive and compound the issue by not being able to build any decent attacks. Spurs have the perfect balance right now.

You're right, Poch's tactics to capitalize on the counter-attack is what inspired the result. And defended with a back 8 whenever Madrid got the ball, even in their own half. Likewise, Zidane got his tactics totally wrong, that was clear from the first 15 minutes. And that's the point: you don't play that way to beat this Spurs team.

It should certainly be congratulated and Spurs deserved the win, but the scoreline wasn't a totally fair reflection on what actually happened.

 

[AdSpur]

It was a really good time to play Madrid. But at the same time, you gotta admit, Jose would have gone to make the game as tight as possible. I dont see United winning 3-1 against madrid at home, even if Madrid are missing 3 of their normal back 5. Same as you cant see United destroying Liverpool the way Spurs did even though Liverpools defence is there to be had (home or away).
Im not saying one is right and one is wrong, its just the way it is.

You know what you get from each manager. Im not sure if having Pogba makes a difference in the approach for the big games.

Regardless, Spurs have done really well to win the game. Its a great result, and should see them top their group. (now expected Madrid to come second and draw United in the next round rofl).

To be fair if united were to play Real now with them playing as they did against us, you would have a field day. Your Defence is as strong as ours, but you have pace in Rashford and Martial and with the space they leave open I dread to think what the outcome would of been. Great result for the boys and I'm still buzzing, but also kinda surprised with the difference between Real last season and what I just witnessed.

 

[prtk0811]

It was a really good time to play Madrid. But at the same time, you gotta admit, Jose would have gone to make the game as tight as possible. I dont see United winning 3-1 against madrid at home, even if Madrid are missing 3 of their normal back 5. Same as you cant see United destroying Liverpool the way Spurs did even though Liverpools defence is there to be had (home or away).
Im not saying one is right and one is wrong, its just the way it is.

You know what you get from each manager. Im not sure if having Pogba makes a difference in the approach for the big games.

Regardless, Spurs have done really well to win the game. Its a great result, and should see them top their group. (now expected Madrid to come second and draw United in the next round rofl).

Out way is different with pogba felani and ibrahimovic who will return. and that wouldbe effective against madrid mid and defense too while being tight at theback.

 

[Sylar]

To be fair if united were to play Real now with them playing as they did against us, you would have a field day. Your Defence is as strong as ours, but you have pace in Rashford and Martial and with the space they leave open I dread to think what the outcome would of been. Great result for the boys and I'm still buzzing, but also kinda surprised with the difference between Real last season and what I just witnessed.

Only reason I would disagree is because of how we set up against Liverpool despite them having no clean sheets in ages when we played them. We pretty much surrendered initiative and I think we do the same against Madrid or any of the big teams. eg I could never see United destroying Bayern like PSG did a month or so ago. I dont think Jose ever sets up like that despite the players available. It would be Martial or Rashford rather than Martial and Rashford.
Its hypothetical anyway until we get some big hitters back (mainly Pogba) but regardless, your team done well and deserve to be topping the group. (quite some turnaround compared to 12 months ago when you came third in a much weaker group).

 

[adexkola]

Spurs have been above us from the time SAF left us so it is not surprising that they play better football. It takes time and also new players to win and we have beaten Spurs 1-0 at home at least. If we had played an open game against Spurs we would have lost the match. That is the point of this. It was bad tactics from Madrid to be so open and they got thrashed.

If Madrid parked the bus or played "pragmatically" (it's such a useless word now), Spurs would have still defeated them.

 

[sammsky1]

Very pertinent observations by Ruud Gullit (from 5m 10 sec onwards) Thanks to @prtk0811 for finding the VDO.


Also


As the average position map used by Gullit in the VDO shows, Spurs always had 7 and most often 8 players behind the ball as soon as Madrid got on the ball. Basically, it shows that Mourinho set up vs Spurs, the way Spurs set up vs Madrid. It's as though Poch copies him!

When Mourinho does so with enormous success to beat Spurs, its criticised as defensive football. When Poch copies him a few days later to beat Madrid, he is hailed a tactical genius.

Likewise, as the heatmaps show, Zidane is an idiot for not using Mourinho's template to beat Spurs with. Huge credit to Spurs for pulling it off, but Madrid set themselves up to lose. Very compelling evidence that Mourinho was 100% on the money for taking on Spurs the way he did.

In summary, Mou is still the boss.

 

[Random Task]

Very pertinent observations by Ruud Gullit (from 5m 10 sec onwards) Thanks to @prtk0811 for fiding the VDO.


Also


As the average position map used by Gullit in the VDO shows, Spurs always had 7 and most often 8 players behind the ball as soon as Madrid got on the ball. Basically shows that Mourinho set up vs Spurs, like Spurs set up vs Madrid.

And yet when Mourinho does so with enormous success, its criticised as defensive football. When Poch copies him a few days later to beat Madrid, he is hailed a tactical genius.

Likewise, as the heatmaps show, Zidane is an idiot for not using Mourinho's template to beat Spurs with. Huge credit to Spurs for pulling it off, but Madrid set themselves up to lose. Very compelling evidence that Mourinho was 100% on the money for taking on Spurs the way he did.

In summary, Mou is still the boss.

Poch can do one.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Only reason I would disagree is because of how we set up against Liverpool despite them having no clean sheets in ages when we played them. We pretty much surrendered initiative and I think we do the same against Madrid or any of the big teams. eg I could never see United destroying Bayern like PSG did a month or so ago. I dont think Jose ever sets up like that despite the players available. It would be Martial or Rashford rather than Martial and Rashford.
Its hypothetical anyway until we get some big hitters back (mainly Pogba) but regardless, your team done well and deserve to be topping the group. (quite some turnaround compared to 12 months ago when you came third in a much weaker group).

Liverpool have a pretty good defensive record at home though, i think only 1 goal conceded. And they themselves didnt actually go for it, Klopp even said it;

"If we are silly, we create without protection and then maybe we could have one or two chances more, but it’s already 4-0 United before we are awake."

 

[edgar allan]

Thats the the thing, they didnt take them on, they played great transitions. it was Madrid over committing, That's why Tottenham had so much space to attack. Madrid had 63% possession, 20 shots and 9 on target, all better numbers than Spurs.

I always say this, When a team can not transition well from defence to attack, it will always make a good defensive performance look like a horrible team performance. Harry Kane is better at holding up the ball compared to Lukaku, so when they clear up top it stays there, how many balls did Lukaku lose vs Liverpool that he really shouldnt have?

We play defensive and compound the issue by not being able to build any decent attacks. Spurs have the perfect balance right now.

I think your point about transition is spot on and there is no doubt that Kane is better than Lukaku in lots of ways.
He doesn't hold the ball up anywhere near as well as we need but to be fair he has been left pretty isolated on occasions as we have been slow to get out of defence to support him. Some of the balls up him have been more hit and hope over the last few weeks which wouldn't have given Kane much of a chance either.

 

[edgar allan]

Very pertinent observations by Ruud Gullit (from 5m 10 sec onwards) Thanks to @prtk0811 for finding the VDO.


Also


As the average position map used by Gullit in the VDO shows, Spurs always had 7 and most often 8 players behind the ball as soon as Madrid got on the ball. Basically, it shows that Mourinho set up vs Spurs, the way Spurs set up vs Madrid. It's as though Poch copies him!

When Mourinho does so with enormous success, its criticised as defensive football. When Poch copies him a few days later to beat Madrid, he is hailed a tactical genius.

Likewise, as the heatmaps show, Zidane is an idiot for not using Mourinho's template to beat Spurs with. Huge credit to Spurs for pulling it off, but Madrid set themselves up to lose. Very compelling evidence that Mourinho was 100% on the money for taking on Spurs the way he did.

In summary, Mou is still the boss.

We had 10 and often 11 players behind the ball against Liverpool.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Doesn't anyone think that Poch made spurs do exactly what we did against them?

Looked identical in preventing too much danger while still creating.

 

[Sylar]

Liverpool have a pretty good defensive record at home though, i think only 1 goal conceded. And they themselves didnt actually go for it, Klopp even said it;

"If we are silly, we create without protection and then maybe we could have one or two chances more, but it’s already 4-0 United before we are awake."

True, and I did say at the time, that I think Klopp was cowardly but not called out on it (taking off his best players and replacing for inferior like for like, and not pushing to truly go for it.

As I said, im not saying one way is better than another. People set up differently, but need plan B/C on occasions.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Looking forward to the United-Real clash in the round of 16 then

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Looking forward to the United-Real clash in the round of 16 then

If you get City will you struggle over who to cheer for?

 

[GhastlyHun]

If you get City will you struggle over who to cheer for?

Nope.

 

[Blue always red]

The media is always fickle like this, whoever the current golden boy is will get the plaudits and as soon as he has a bad spell they'll crucify him. The ones who go on to greatness are those who overcome that hurdle. We'll have to see how Poch deals with it.

 

[sammsky1]

We had 10 and often 11 players behind the ball against Liverpool.

So what? Given the injuries in midfield Mourinho sensibly played the % game. I'm glad he did.

 

[sammsky1]

Doesn't anyone think that Poch made spurs do exactly what we did against them?

Looked identical in preventing too much danger while still creating.

See heat maps and VDO in my post above

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

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[prtk0811]

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Defense is not the problem, But We need to counter attack better and create better and care about ball possession also, which needs to be improved , you cant just give away the ball by playing direct in the air and not have the work rate and efficiency to win the second balls while being unbalanced on the wings.

Our team miss a lot of athletes with good workrate also which was not the case under fergie.

 

[prtk0811]

The media is always fickle like this, whoever the current golden boy is will get the plaudits and as soon as he has a bad spell they'll crucify him. The ones who go on to greatness are those who overcome that hurdle. We'll have to see how Poch deals with it.

Its good poch is getting attention, just makes Our job eaisier to focus on our job at hand and get over the line.

 

[moonunderthewater]

Very pertinent observations by Ruud Gullit (from 5m 10 sec onwards) Thanks to @prtk0811 for finding th



As the average position map used by Gullit in the VDO shows, Spurs always had 7 and most often 8 players behind the ball as soon as Madrid got on the ball. Basically, it shows that Mourinho set up vs Spurs, the way Spurs set up vs Madrid. It's as though Poch copies him!

When Mourinho does so with enormous success to beat Spurs, its criticised as defensive football. When Poch copies him a few days later to beat Madrid, he is hailed a tactical genius.

Likewise, as the heatmaps show, Zidane is an idiot for not using Mourinho's template to beat Spurs with. Huge credit to Spurs for pulling it off, but Madrid set themselves up to lose. Very compelling evidence that Mourinho was 100% on the money for taking on Spurs the way he did.

In summary, Mou is still the boss.

How long do you think Zidane would last if Real Madrid employed our defensive tactics

Our win over Spurs, inspired by Mourinho's tactics, looks even more impressive.

As was said in the ECL match thread tonight, it seems as though Zidane did not watch how Mourinho set up against Spurs to make them almost lame, whilst creating enough chances to win without too much fuss.

How long does anybody think Zidane would have a job with Real Madrid if he employed Mourinhos tactics?
The white hankies would be out quicker than you could say 'Pragmatic approach'.
Jose does his thing which wins stuff, we all get that.
But we gave him the job as what I think, was a last resort, due to the failings of his predecessors, and Liverpool and City getting big names.
The results are fantastic, no argument, but the tactics? Will that be enough for us in the long run? No.
He either has to come to the party, for he will be given the money, no doubt about that, or go.
He has us fans split and arguing which way is best.
Even Gary Neville has started to promote this tactic.
We are in the top 3 clubs in the world, people tune in to watch Real, Barca and us. We need to be playing attacking, foot forward football, end of.
If City or Spurs were playing at the same time as us, who would the neutral tune in to watch?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

See heat maps and VDO in my post above

Uncanny! Well Poch is a Mourinho Student after all

 

[EyeInTheSky]

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He sets up the team in a system where only individual errors from our players or pure brilliance from the oppo can get chances

Master tactician

 

[Jetrooooo]

How long do you think Zidane would last if Real Madrid employed our defensive tactics

How long does anybody think Zidane would have a job with Real Madrid if he employed Mourinhos tactics?
The white hankies would be out quicker than you could say 'Pragmatic approach'.
Jose does his thing which wins stuff, we all get that

He stayed longer at Madrid than the other 12 up until del bosque

 

[edgar allan]

Defense is not the problem, But We need to counter attack better and create better and care about ball possession also, which needs to be improved , you cant just give away the ball by playing direct in the air and not have the work rate and efficiency to win the second balls while being unbalanced on the wings.

Our team miss a lot of athletes with good workrate also which was not the case under fergie.

Workrate or athleticism is not the major issue. It is formation and ethos.

 

[edgar allan]

He sets up the team in a system where only individual errors from our players or pure brilliance from the oppo can get chances

Master tactician

And vice versa sadly.