MPFG Draft - Final: Pat_Mustard vs General_Elegancia/Invictus

With players at their peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Pat_Mustard



General_Elegancia/Invictus



Pat_Mustard Tactics



“We want to press, we want to press all day and play proactive football. Sometimes we can do that high but if not possible, we have to read it as a team and drop lower. But we want to press and that has to be the intention all day.” Erik ten Hag

Formation: Lobanovsky-inspired 4-1-3-2

We've dropped our lines back a few yards on the teamsheet, simply to reflect the reality that we're not likely to be able to play as much of this match in the opponent's half of the pitch as we'd like - that Krol/VVD/Di Stefano/Schuster central axis is clearly going to impose their own periods of territorial dominance on us, and we have to be prepared to mix bouts of intense high pressing with a pragmatic willingness to drop back and defend against their spells of pressure. That will open up opportunities for us as well - while the opposition looks solid through the centre, De Bruyne and Rummenigge attacking their left flank and Nedved surging at or behind Carvajal look like highly profitable avenues for the counter-attack.

The New Signings:

We limited our spending in the previous reinforcement round in the hope of splashing the cash for the final, and we've landed our dream target in Pavel Nedved. Two-footed with a Swiss Army knife of a skillset, his ability to play all across midfield and his inexhaustible capacity for hard graft mark him out as an ideal final piece of the jigsaw for a Lobanovsky-inspired team.

The second signing is German goliath Hans-Peter Briegel. Frankly, I'm not convinced that he's necessarily a better player than the man he replaces, but he might just be a better fit for this team and this match. Firstly, we're likely to be forced deeper in this match at times than we'd like, and Briegel's skill set and experience as a centre back probably lends itself better to those phases than persevering with Robertson. Secondly, Briegel chimes particularly well with the Lobanovsky ideal of universality: he made Kicker Magazine's Bundesliga Team of the Season four times in a row from 1979-80, alternating between LB and CB each season , before moving to Verona and playing mainly in midfield throughout their improbable Scudetto-winning campaign in the 1984-85 season.

Nedved and Briegel complete a team that has been built to press hard and and play direct, full-throttle football. No undue emphasis on possession here, just wave after wave of swift attacks with plenty of players pouring forward, whether we win the ball back high up the pitch or further back. The tireless Ian Rush sets the tone as the CF-cum-first defender who will run himself into the ground out-of-possession.

  • Uli Stein was one of a long line of slightly insane German goalkeepers and, usefully for a high-line defence, he was quite happy to come off his line. Kicker magazine describes him as "one of Germany’s all-time greatest goalkeepers who enjoyed an outstanding career in the Bundesliga despite inciting several scandals. Uli Stein must be rated as a truly complete goalkeeper, very strong in all aspects of goalkeeping, terrific on the line and at leaving his goal, in one-on-one situations, a very charismatic figure, a dominant person with an aggressive mentality."
  • Stam and Mozer were monsters athletically and both have experience in high line defences - there's few better pairings to defend those big spaces behind them, and deal with 1v1s when we're facing the counter attack. Equally, both were dominant in the air, and look ideal in that regard for mitigating against the aerial threat of Seeler.
  • The relentlessly competitive German Uli Stielike plays the Konkov role at the base of midfield. Kicker sums him up neatly as "a highly-talented, hard-running and hard-working defensive midfielder with a penchant for adamant tackling. As a midfielder, Stielike was a destroyer and a creator at the same time, with an emphasis on destroying...One of the reasons why Stielike was so revered in Spain was because he was so consistent. It looked almost like Stielike could not play badly at all."
  • With Stielike as the reference point as the holding player, the other three midfielders have freedom to interchange and surge forward in search of goals. Breitner, the sumptiously gifted dynamo who would pop up all over the pitch, seems ideal for this system. Kevin De Bruyne has established himself as one of the greatest chance-creation machines in modern football, as well as being a ceaseless runner and team-player. The turbo-charged Nedved completes the attacking midfield line.
  • Double Ballon d'Or winner, thoroughbred athlete, excellent technician and a proper team player: Rummenigge is a potential matchwinner in any company. Factor in that he hit his peak after moving off the flanks into a two-man frontline, and that he's reunited here with his most-celebrated partner in crime Paul Breitner, and his threat is ratcheted up even more.
  • It was noted in the Dead Drafters thread regarding Lobanovsky's 70s Dynamo team that they really lacked a ruthless CF to convert their dominance into goals. Ian Rush looks a quality remedy - prolific, extremely fast, and tidy in the build up, he was also an incredible grafter.

General_Elegancia/Invictus Tactics

  • Formation: fairly straight-forward and vertically oriented 4—3—3, with Alfredo Di Stéfano as the box-to-box “architect” of the team.
  • Style: Relentless and proactive from start to finish, lots of pressing and also interplay given the personnel at hand, and a near-constant emphasis on the attacking side of the game.
  • How the role suits the GOAT: healthy combination of industry and technical prowess around him, well-timed runs and movement in and out of possession, the freedom to influence the proceedings and proverbially be at the heart of the game at almost all times, the absence of some megalomaniac twerp who will challenge his authority in vain, capable deputies to lend a helping hand, and also the chance to regularly explore the inside-left or central segment of the pitch...
  • How the Peaches suit the GOAT (and the philosophy at large):

DEFENSE

Andoni Zubizarreta:
as the goalkeeper of the Dream Team at Cruyff's Barcelona, Zubizarreta was technically accomplished, a forward-thinking organizer, adept at rushing off his zone and playing with high defensive lines, had a keen positional sense, was stylish yet efficient as a distributor of the ball, and also a noteworthy shot-stopper. Good fit for the approach, and possesses the skill set to consistently and directly feed the ball to Di Stéfano.



David Alaba: part of several aggressive teams that employed high lines over the years with Bayern (from Heynckes' Champions League winners to Flick's Champions League winners), one of the best ball-playing defenders of his generation (with the 3rd most assists from a fullback in the Champions League era after Dani Alves and Marcelo), an intelligent presser and counter-presser, proficient at effortlessly transitioning from defense to attack, could shunt up and down the flank but also tuck in if need be. Good fit for the approach; and wrt. Di Stéfano, Alaba could stretch the field on the left, provide industry and movement and guile, and also link up at the edge of the inside-left zone of midfield.

Ruud Krol: the greatest Dutch defender of all time, the quintessential totaalvoetballer, utterly complete in a myriad aspects. Intuitive strategist and very active off the ball, very smooth on the ball, above-average recovery speed and speed in general, comfortable in wider areas, and possessed a sixth-sense for danger. Good fit for the approach, matches the totaalvoetballing principles of the GOAT (who was arguably the most complete footballer of them all) and can also use his passing range to bring Di Stéfano into the game.

To get a sense for how good he was as a central defender, Krol won the Guerin d'Oro for Player of the Year, had a more impressive performance index than the likes of Scirea and was rated as the best foreign player in Serie A from 1980 to 1982...



Virgil van Dijk:

“He’s special. The combination of skills is absolutely special. His mindset on top of that is really special. We knew when we signed him that we would get a really good player, but the package is so special. We had no idea (quite how good he would be), and that makes it really, really exciting.
Jürgen Klopp
The complete package, so to speak — one of the landmarks of defending at the peak of his powers. van Dijk is peculiar in the sense that he has next to no discernable weaknesses — simultaneously a rugged, immovable rock from a purely defensive standpoint and a cultured ball-player for possession oriented teams, excellent at anticipating and diagnosing situations before they develop but also possessing the explosiveness to make split-second interventions if he has to, wins the vast majority of aerial duels but also imperious on the ground, spectacular at manning islands of spaces on his own (centrally or through half spaces) but effective when asked to defend compactly in numbers, and rarely caught out position because of his footballing IQ. One of the most influential players for his side during set-pieces to boot (aided by athleticism and massive 6'5" frame), and has an keen sense for resorting to tactical fouls when his team is under tremendous pressure. Perfect central defender for this scheme, in our opinion; and his defensive nous, passing ability and mentality will be appreciated by a savant in Di Stéfano.

Dani Carvajal: A contemporary great at the fullback position, Carvajal was a consistent and indispensable presence for Real Madrid teams that won 5 European Cups while assisting as many goals in the competition as Luís Figo! Capable in all phases of the game; a tenacious fullback who boasted good technical skills, pace in offensive and defensive transitions, stamina to motor up-and-down as a genuine flank-dominator and present himself as an option for the ball, and the discipline to always mind his positional duties. Good fit for the approach, should offer himself as a a receiving option out wide (when Di Stéfano targets that part of the pitch) and could also ping the ball to the main man from advantageous positions.



MIDFIELD

Wim Jansen:
a no-nonsense, energetic, selfless, combative and versatile player who could operate as a defensive midfielder, defensive box-to-box midfielder, fullback or even central defender on occasion. Good fit for the approach because the famous organization and press of the Dutch national team was predicated on his characteristics as a tackler and stabilizer in midfield, along with his tactical intelligence and nose for covering spaces; and well suited to an archetypal water-carrier role in service of the leading light, Di Stéfano.



Bernd Schuster: a spielmacher with a wide range of stand-out qualities. Exquisite dribbler, innovative passer in short, medium and long ranges, dynamic in and out of possession, aggressive in the tackle, scored a multitude of goals over the course of his career, and athletically a force of nature who could powerfully traverse vast spaces. Good fit for the approach; and also, he forged a short-lived but wonderful alliance with Maradona at Barcelona, which should suit Di Stéfano — with Schuster being his trusted partner, buzzing in the vicinity...sometimes alongside and sometimes behind or ahead (the Blonde Engel to go with the Blond Arrow).



ATTACK

Zoltán Czibor:
One of the greatest wide attackers of all time, and arguably the best possible pick for this role. A complete and modern player even though he played back in the day, Czibor was gifted with blistering pace, an inventive passer, ranged freely to pose a substantial goalscoring and creative threat, linked up wonderfully with other forwards (most notably the likes of Puskás, Kocsis, Hidegkuti, Kubala, Budai), excelled at delivering precise high or low crosses, and was a consummate team player who was active off the ball and willingly tracked the movement of opposition runners. His primordial-totaalvoetbal background with Honvéd and Gusztáv Sebes's legendary Mighty Magyars makes him an ideal fit for the approach, and his skill set and application will be deeply appreciated by Di Stéfano.



Jupp Heynckes: in his footballing days (most notably at Borussia Mönchengladbach and with the European Championship winning West German team in 1972), Heynckes struck a telepathic understand with the fabled controller, Günter Netzer. A wing forward by nature, he made significant contributions during the build-up stages, was a willing and active runner both on and off the ball, possessed an excellent turn of pace and clockwork rhythm and was a threat in the air, and had a memorable 3 year peak where he plundered 129 goals in 139 matches at club level for a goals-per-game ratio of 0.93. Good fit for the approach, and also a smashing fit with Di Stéfano given his movement, grafting nature, tactical foresight and eye for goal.

As a player, Heynckes was a ruthless goalscorer who helped drive Gladbach to their most successful era. On the field, his once wavy hair danced as part of a deceptively powerful body that bagged roughly 0.7 goals per match over the course of 308 games. It’s a phenomenal record split between two spells from 1963 to 1978.
Uwe Seeler: In the center forward position is Uns Uwe, three times Footballer of the Year for Germany. The greatest striker the nation has ever produced behind Gerd Müller, he possessed the unique ability to form a telepathic understanding with his co-attackers and involve himself in the deeper or wider game to a point where he was almost a dual striker-winger or forward; all while establishing himself as one of the best examples you'll ever see of aerial prowess at the position, working hard on and off the ball and being an extraordinary natural goalscorer — to date, boasting the second highest goal tally of a German footballer with 575 scored in competitive matches. Good fit for the approach, and a terrific companion for Di Stéfano — given his tactical intellect, goalscoring prowess, penchant for making clever dummy runs, linking up the other forwards and offering cut-back passes.



And finally, a bit on our lord and savior...
"Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time. He was, simultaneously, the anchor in defence, the playmaker in midfield, and the most dangerous marksman in attack."
Helenio Herrera
"I can say that Maradona could be worse than Pelé. But I emphasize Di Stéfano was better."
Diego Maradona
"Di Stéfano. My hero. For me, he was the most complete footballer in history. That’s my opinion."
Eusébio
"The greatness of Di Stéfano was that, with him in your side, you had two players in every position."
Miguel Muñoz
No other player so effectively combined individual expertise with an all-embracing ability to organize a team to play to his command. He was "total soccer" personified before the term had been invented. Di Stéfano remains to many of us the Greatest Footballer of All Time."
Keir Radnedg
Ronaldo is playing extremely well at the moment, but it will be years before he reaches the level of a Pelé or Di Stéfano."
Johan Cruyff

Why we should win
  • Countering the opposition's foremost strengths (i.e., collectivism and dynamism). They are built to press hard and play full-throttle football with athletic players. Our team is just as hard-working and battle-ready, and every channel of the pitch and every blade of grass will be covered. From the high-octane totaalvoetbaling defensive tandem of Krol and van Dijk (both of whom finished in the Ballon Do'Or Top 3) to the explosive livewires up front who will work their socks off; and there are zero slackers anywhere on the pitch (in or out of possession). To a man, they gave their best and were mindful of their individual duties within the overarching framework.
  • Incredible goalscoring expertise, with upwards of 1600 goals for the Front 4. With approximately 200 goals for club and country, Czibor is the weakest goal-scorer from that lot. Heynckes scored 328 goals (with a 3 year peak of 130+ goals, and a Bundesliga ratio that trails only G. Müller and Lewandowski), Seeler plundered 582 goals over the course of his glittering career, and Di Stéfano scored 515 goals (with his Madrid record standing for 45 years and his European Cup record standing for a similar amount of time).
  • Constantly chipping away at the opposition's wide configuration. Heynckes and Czibor were supreme menaces off the ball and considerable threats on it — their presence will definitely limit Amoros and Briegel's forward forays (on top of putting them through the wringer defensively, of course). Further back, Alaba and Carvajal (relatively free on certain occasions and comfortable in inside-channel zones) will double up to press and tackle De Bruyne and Nedvěd to disrupt their rhythm during routine reconnaissance missions.
  • Di Stéfano's near-unparalleled ability to organize the game to his advantage, and a team that is built to accentuate his qualities. Only a select few strategists, like Cruyff or Beckenbauer, can compare with him...
"Who is this man? He takes the ball from the goalkeeper; he tells the defenders what they have to do. Wherever he is on the field, he is in a position to get the ball. It is his influence on everything that he happens to see. I’ve never seen such a complete footballer. It was as if he had his own command center set up in the heart of the football game. He was as strong as he was subtle. The combination of his qualities was fascinating. He totally controlled the game. You looked at him and asked yourself: ‘how can I possibly stop him?"
Bobby Charlton
His overpowering, magisterial aura as a field-general gives the team a favorable edge. With industrious, tactically smart, technically accomplished and selfless players like Czibor, Heynckes, Schuster and Seeler around him, a dogged water-carrier in Jansen clearing up some of the clutter and Alaba offering himself as an option from tucked-in fullback positions — as well as a central defense that will quickly transition the ball, he should be in his elements as the coordinator-in-chief and have relatively unfettered access to forward positions too.
 

Himannv

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I'm not overly impressed with GE/I's fullbacks and Jansen and I don't know how Heynckes goes on the right. Having said that, Mustard's team relies a lot on Stielike since Schuster and Di Stefano both could operate in the space on either side of him.

How do both teams see the game playing out?
 

General_Elegancia

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I'm not overly impressed with GE/I's fullbacks and Jansen
Well, they are two of the most accomplished full-backs in the 2010s. Both are balance fullbacks who could do well in both attacking and defending phases. Carvajal has experience playing under an attacking and adaptable team in Madrid for many years, and Alaba also has experience playing for the attacking team in Bayern Munchen for many years too. Both are also modern players who I believe will be very effective in pressing set-up( due to their real-life experiences).



Rummenigge's quote
“With David, I regret his departure. He was the boss of the defense and played an incredible year under Hansi Flick with the Champions League victory in Lisbon. You can see that this part, Alaba is already missing at Bayern Munich."
 
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Invictus

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Will let the gaffer handle this match, but just wanted to address this bit...
I don't know how Heynckes goes on the right
Heynckes was quite a handful on either flank, and was even selected to the 1972 European Championship Team of the Tournament (where West Germany produced what is arguably the most spectacular and dominant string of displays in national team history). Here's him with a Man of the Match caliber performance in the Final vs. USSR, playing a direct role in all 3 of his team's goals...





Not to mention, the front trio of Czibor, Seeler and Heynckes is effortlessly dynamic; both wide players are quite comfortable on either side, and Seeler also liked to buzz around the forward lines — in all likelihood, they will all combine and pop up everywhere (to exploit any momentary spatial weaknesses and also keep the opposition guessing)! :)
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Tough to vote when the debate so far is about formations not being visible. Will vote tomorrow as it's too close to call
 

General_Elegancia

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' I don't know how Heynckes goes on the right.
He would be super fine in the right-wing forward position. He was a very versatile player on his own, could play both left/right wing forwards or target striker. Like @Invictus said, Heynckes was also a very dynamic player too. 70s Borussia's tactics constantly interchange positions during the game due to their flexible forward line in Jensen, Heynckes and Simonsen.

Our front line is very dynamic, and fluid, and could interchange positions all the time to make Pat's defenders look curious and confused. All of them ( Seeler, Czibor and Heynckes) were effortlessly comfortable in wide areas, which can be one of our advantages.


You could see he constantly switched to the right side. Like I said before, 70s Borussia's front line was very fluid front-line.



Another example of Heynckes's performance
 

General_Elegancia

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Good luck @General_Elegancia and @Invictus . Lovely team, and as far as the less-celebrated players go I particularly like Heynckes and Wim Jansen.
Good luck to you too

I don't have any criticism of your team. Since I think it is an almost perfect team for Lobanovsky's theme in 650-730 budgets( quarter-final- final). It's the first time that I've seen Uli Stein in this draft and probably the final round too. He's a very underrated goalkeeper, almost complete at every facet of his game. His biggest weakness may be his temperament and behavior( he was very lucky not to play in this era).
 
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TheReligion

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Currently voted for Team Pat as my concerns with the back four of GE/Invictus haven’t been addressed. I’d also include Zubizarretta in that too. Just feel it’s too weak as this stage of the competition and the upgrades should have been more balanced (sorry @General_Elegancia !)

I also can’t see past Nedved-Breitner-KdB.

Scrumptious.

Let’s see how the discussion unfolds.
 

Šjor Bepo

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both teams are boring as feck, great but didnt moved an inch from the R1 in terms of tactics

still have no idea why mustard downgraded from Robertson to Briegel, specially as the former was ideal fit with his insane engine and constant bombarding down the left flank. Not buying the defensive angle he and his midget are trying to sell though votes vise it makes sense so i understand it, a bit.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I'm not overly impressed with GE/I's fullbacks and Jansen and I don't know how Heynckes goes on the right. Having said that, Mustard's team relies a lot on Stielike since Schuster and Di Stefano both could operate in the space on either side of him.

How do both teams see the game playing out?
I'm not too concerned about Stielike getting isolated here. Firstly, the team will be compact with not much space between the lines when we're high up the pitch in a possession period or pressing high out of possession, as Mozer and Stam are so comfortable pushing the defensive line up high. Secondly, all three of Breitner/Nedved/De Bruyne are highly dynamic and will work their bollocks off to support Stielike. Lastly, as outlined in the OP I think it's unrealistic to think we'll constantly be on the front foot against an oppoent of this style and calibre, and in their more protracted periods of territorial dominance this will more likely be better represented as a more classic two banks of four shape. As Lobanovsky guru Harms said of the Lobanovsky team shape

I guess this is on me, but you don, seem to get his role. Lobanovsky’s system is too versatile to capture it with one formation, so I went with the one that I think suits him best, but it can be easily represented as a flat 4-4-2 with the midfield unit of Lerby-Breitner-Voronin-De Bruyne. Kolotov was a box-to-box midfielder, not an attacking one, albeit a good goalscorer; Breitner is the same... but better.
As far as the overall flow of the match:

  • If anything the opposition are slightly better suited to keeping hold of the ball than our very direct side so we won't be able to exercise the stranglehold on territorial dominance that we'd ideally want. Not an easy or ideal opponent for us in that sense.
  • I think our bunch look even better suited to implementing an aggressive and effective press, whether high up the pitch or further back. Rush was a terrier in that regard and at this point the whole team is abnormal in terms of energy levels, aggression and athleticism.
  • As said in the OP, Nedved running directly at or behind Carvajal looks like one of the most promising routes to goal here. Not that anyone should need reminding of what Nedved was all about, but I made this brief-ish compilation of him vs Netherlands in that great Euro 2004 match:
https://sendvid.com/4mcyrhf7 Dodgy Snowden link dedicated to @Šjor Bepo :drool:
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
both teams are boring as feck, great but didnt moved an inch from the R1 in terms of tactics

still have no idea why mustard downgraded from Robertson to Briegel, specially as the former was ideal fit with his insane engine and constant bombarding down the left flank. Not buying the defensive angle he and his midget are trying to sell though votes vise it makes sense so i understand it, a bit.
I'm not massively enamoured with the Robertson to Briegel swap myself, but having made only one change in the last round (bringing in Stielike), I felt I had to frsehen things up a bit and the divisive Robertson was an obvious one to drop. As said in OP I do like Briegel as a nod to Lobanovsky's love of universality - Bessonov was his most celebrated FB who could play anywhere, but the RB Troshkin from the 70s team was apparently a midfielder by trade.

It was rather strange team schematically: Rudakov between the goalposts; Matvienko left full-back, and the duo of Fomenko – Reshko in the centre of defense. The right full-back was ‘fluid’ – the defensive midfileder Troshkin played most often, providing vigor on the right flank, but also he was too good to be left on the bench and this was the only available position. However, when real defense was needed Damin or Zuev (less often) were fielded...It was the arrival of Konkov which made difficulty for Troshkin – Konkov played strongly and his position was defensive midfielder, with broader operational range than Troshkin, who preferred the right side of the pitch.

As regards the stagnant tactics, I liked what I'd built originally anyway and was happy just to refine it, and it was too hard to change course anyway. Best I could have done was shift to some generic/balanced approach.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Good luck to you too

I don't have any criticism of your team. Since I think it is an almost perfect team for Lobanovsky's theme in 650-730 budgets( quarter-final- final). It's the first time that I've seen Uli Stein in this draft and probably the final round too. He's a very underrated goalkeeper, almost complete at every facet of his game. His biggest weakness may be his temperament and behavior( he was very lucky not to play in this era).
I don't know what you're talking about. The man was an angel!


Your team is superb, but while we're on the topic of goalkeepers the only part of your OP that I'd raise questions about is the depiction of Zubizarreta as being a good distributor of the ball. Anto posted about his tribulations after the introduction of the back-pass rule here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nostalgia-draft-qf-antohan-vs-isotope.463736/#post-27431940

and Zubi himself spoke out against the introduction of the rule to El Pais in 1992 . Not that I've found anything to suggest that Stein was any great trailblazer in that regard either, but I think it's fair to say that both teams could ideally use a better distributor in order to fully modernise their use of the high line.
 

General_Elegancia

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I don't know what you're talking about. The man was an angel!


Your team is superb, but while we're on the topic of goalkeepers the only part of your OP that I'd raise questions about is the depiction of Zubizarreta as being a good distributor of the ball. Anto posted about his tribulations after the introduction of the back-pass rule here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nostalgia-draft-qf-antohan-vs-isotope.463736/#post-27431940

and Zubi himself spoke out against the introduction of the rule to El Pais in 1992 . Not that I've found anything to suggest that Stein was any great trailblazer in that regard either, but I think it's fair to say that both teams could ideally use a better distributor in order to fully modernise their use of the high line.
Zubizarreta himself was never great at ball distribution, it's not his strength in his game and I couldn't disagree with him in that department.

However, he's a great fit for our team for sure. He's a person who always came out off the line, wasn't a traditional gk who always stay on-the-line, great at reading the game and the most important one he's great on shot-stopping ability which is necessary for this game against excellent long shot takers like Nedved, KDB and Breitner.

In terms of ball distribution from the back, I think all of our defenders are great in this regard. So, I wouldn't concern that much. Especially, at least, Zubizaretta was a gk who always came off the line and wasn't a pure traditional gk who always stayed on the line.

On the other hand, Uli Stein didn't have mediocre ball-distribution skills but I would say it wasn't his strength too.

 
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General_Elegancia

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Introduce my new player: Uwe Seeler

Franz Beckenbauer
“Uwe Seeler was one of the best strikers of the history, with a great sense of position and above all he was a player who always put the team first” (Franz Beckenbauer about Uwe Seeler)

He was one of the best strikers of all time and probably one of the best players who never won Ballon'Dor. A complete striker in every sense, great at scoring both inside the penalty box or outside of it, a very selfless person, could work and run for the team, excellent at all kinds of heading techniques( diving, acrobatic, straight) and acrobatics scoring like an overhead kick or scissor kick. His goal-scoring stats also show that he scored 551 goals in all competitions, which is considered to be number 16th on the list. His selflessness and selfishness will make him so effective in this game. He will show a great link-up with Di Stefano and can provide a lot of chances for the goal. He had experience doing something like this in World Cup 1966( made young Franz shine) and World Cup 1970( played alongside peak Muller).



In this game, he will support by Czibor's crosses( both high and low), Di Stefano's passes and Schuster's unpredictable passes, which are considered better than anything that Seeler would get.
 

General_Elegancia

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Zolton Czibor


Well, this guy could act as both wing-forward or a true winger on the left side of the pitch. He's a real wide threat in this game which we find from the last game and he will fulfill our team to be better and more unpredictable in terms of goal-scoring methods. He's rated by fellows as Hungary's greatest wingers. He had a lot of varieties in his games, could do all kinds of crosses( low, medium and high), had great dribbling ability, had powerful shots and was a skillful player too.

Club[edit]
Ferencváros TC

Honvéd

CF Barcelona

International[edit]
Hungary


 

General_Elegancia

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I will post this again before I'm going to work, the reasons why our team should win.

Why we should win
  • Countering the opposition's foremost strengths (i.e., collectivism and dynamism). They are built to press hard and play full-throttle football with athletic players. Our team is just as hard-working and battle-ready, and every channel of the pitch and every blade of grass will be covered. From the high-octane totaalvoetbaling defensive tandem of Krol and van Dijk (both of whom finished in the Ballon Do'Or Top 3) to the explosive livewires up front who will work their socks off; and there are zero slackers anywhere on the pitch (in or out of possession). To a man, they gave their best and were mindful of their individual duties within the overarching framework.
  • Incredible goalscoring expertise, with upwards of 1600 goals for the Front 4. With approximately 200 goals for club and country, Czibor is the weakest goal-scorer from that lot. Heynckes scored 328 goals (with a 3 year peak of 130+ goals, and a Bundesliga ratio that trails only G. Müller and Lewandowski), Seeler plundered 582 goals over the course of his glittering career, and Di Stéfano scored 515 goals (with his Madrid record standing for 45 years and his European Cup record standing for a similar amount of time).
  • Constantly chipping away at the opposition's wide configuration. Heynckes and Czibor were supreme menaces off the ball and considerable threats on it — their presence will definitely limit Amoros and Briegel's forward forays (on top of putting them through the wringer defensively, of course). Further back, Alaba and Carvajal (relatively free on certain occasions and comfortable in inside-channel zones) will double up to press and tackle De Bruyne and Nedvěd to disrupt their rhythm during routine reconnaissance missions.
  • Di Stéfano's near-unparalleled ability to organize the game to his advantage, and a team that is built to accentuate his qualities. Only a select few strategists, like Cruyff or Beckenbauer, can compare with him...
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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As much as I am a fan of themed teams, I simply can't see how Pat's team can contain that left hand side of Di Stefano/Czibor/Alaba.

Maybe I don't understand the system enough but I see clear flaws in dealing with teams with excellent wings. Did Lobanovsky's team play against a lot of narrow teams or were teams with good wing play in the mix too?

Some of these ideas were created keeping the prevalent ideas of the time in mind. For example, Van Gaal's Ajax 3-4-3 was created by him because most of his league opponents played narrow formations with 2 forwards, so 3 at the back seemed sensible to him.

For now voted for GE, but am open to changing my vote.
 

Himannv

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Maybe I don't understand the system enough but I see clear flaws in dealing with teams with excellent wings. Did Lobanovsky's team play against a lot of narrow teams or were teams with good wing play in the mix too?
It's basically 4-4-2 in defence from the looks of it:

Firstly, the team will be compact with not much space between the lines when we're high up the pitch in a possession period or pressing high out of possession, as Mozer and Stam are so comfortable pushing the defensive line up high. Secondly, all three of Breitner/Nedved/De Bruyne are highly dynamic and will work their bollocks off to support Stielike. Lastly, as outlined in the OP I think it's unrealistic to think we'll constantly be on the front foot against an oppoent of this style and calibre, and in their more protracted periods of territorial dominance this will more likely be better represented as a more classic two banks of four shape.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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It's basically 4-4-2 in defence from the looks of it:
Yea, I assumed so. But that is an even bigger concern for me. If it's a 4-4-2 off the ball, Stielike-Breitner stand no chance against the 3 man midfield featuring Schuster-Alfredo (and Jansen who was no nut on the ball) . Don't think Rush-Kalle will offer much to the midfield battle. If there was a Denis Law there, sure.

Which is why I feel the setup mostly works against narrow teams. I might be completely wrong though, will wait for thoughts from @Pat_Mustard or @harms and reconsider my vote before the deadline.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I don't rate Carvajal/Alaba that high in an all time context defensively as I have mentioned in previous rounds as well but one can't question their capabilities going forward.

This isn't just a team with 2 great wide men, it's one with 4 great wide ball carriers. They might have been liabilities this far a bit but in his game, I think they are aces. Especially considering neither Nedved nor De Bruyne are playing a proper wide role to constantly threaten them.

Am sorry, am almost sounding really biased here, but for me this is a tactical mistake w.r.t choice of formation against the opponent in question. I will stop posting now.
 

General_Elegancia

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It's basically 4-4-2 in defense from the looks of it:
It would look like this for sure. In the defensive phase, Pat's team must drop into the 4-4-2 phase, KDB and Nedved will be two fellas who must defend in wide areas against my flanks( both sides left and right). I think we have an advantage in this since the 4-1-3-2 formation will have a large gap between full-backs and left/right midfielders. Plus, the 4-1-3-2 formation isn't a great formation to defend in the counterattack, it could be a bit easily exposed in counter-attacking situations. I trust the quality of my forwards and the flanks to give Pat's team trouble.

The best way to beat this formation is to have great wide players with great acceleration and speed, pressing them and using both flanks to gain advantages. I think in our team, we have everything necessary to fight against 4-1-3-2.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
As much as I am a fan of themed teams, I simply can't see how Pat's team can contain that left hand side of Di Stefano/Czibor/Alaba.

Maybe I don't understand the system enough but I see clear flaws in dealing with teams with excellent wings. Did Lobanovsky's team play against a lot of narrow teams or were teams with good wing play in the mix too?

Some of these ideas were created keeping the prevalent ideas of the time in mind. For example, Van Gaal's Ajax 3-4-3 was created by him because most of his league opponents played narrow formations with 2 forwards, so 3 at the back seemed sensible to him.

For now voted for GE, but am open to changing my vote.
With a managerial career as long as Lobanovsky's (1968-2002) he'll have faced the full gamut of formations and systems. As regards a specific match where they coped with menacing wings, Dynamo's 4-0 trouncing of Barcelona in 1997 is a good example, as Barca fielded Sergi and Ferrer at FB and Rivaldo and Figo as the wide attackers.

I'm fairly satisfied with my defensive coverage on that wing. Amoros is the best FB on the pitch, De Bruyne is a tireless partner ahead of him who won't allow Alaba to run off him too regularly, and the steely Stielike will be sliding across and patrolling that side of the pitch as necessary. Not to mention that as far as dealing with crosses goes (not the only problem that trio will pose of course), Mozer and Stam are as good as gets aerially.

IMO, the left wing that's most likely to decide the match is Nedved tearing into Carvajal, who might struggle to cope with his powerful ball-carrying and ability to conjure some magic off either foot.
 

General_Elegancia

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IMO, the left wing that's most likely to decide the match is Nedved tearing into Carvajal, who might struggle to cope with his powerful ball-carrying and ability to conjure some magic off either foot.
Schuster will help Carvajal in this scenario and I think Nedved's main opponent in this game will be Schuster first since he operates at lam/lm( Schuster more as a right central midfielder) and he must do his midfield battle job. Schuster was a person who always helped and tracked back in a wide area ( look at Euro 1980).
 

Synco

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Most important thing for me about this final is that two offensive teams face each other, playing on the front foot. Pressing & fast transitions from both sides, top notch attacking units. Agree with Mustard that GE/Invi will probably be better at keeping possession (great backline for it), with Mustard going more for pressing and directness. Probably lots of goals in this.

So the question for me is which team can manage the opposition assault better.

Not a fan of sheep logic generally, but I do see Carvajal as a weak point defensively, all the more so as he's up against Nedved. But then, GE/Invi's ADS-led front four is so damn good that it can cause similar problems without any clear weakness on the other side.
 

Synco

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Don't think Rush-Kalle will offer much to the midfield battle.
I mostly watched Rummenigge pre-peak, playing for Bayern on the wings. He showed very good defensive workrate there, comparable to Müller and Hoeneß. Which included tracking back to midfield or down the wing, even as far back as defensive third, mostly when following an oppo defender pushing up.

No idea if this can also be said for peak Rummenigge, who is going to be played here. (But then, what of it would be changed tactics/role, what of it "the player as such"?) @Pat_Mustard @harms

But in such a collective, pressing-oriented setup I'd imagine Rummenigge to work very well to help shielding the midfield/defense.
 

antohan

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Voted @General_Elegancia / @Invictus

I've mentioned before Zubi playing for Cruyff doesn't make him some sort of sweeper keeper. Nothing further from the truth and in that clip Unzué himself explains the role of the keeper then was nothing like post-Pep. Great keeper at his peak, but so was De Gea playing under LVG. Means nothing stylistically.

Anyhow, the premise in this was "you'll have a lot of peaches but only one GOAT" and I can see that with Di Stéfano while I see no GOAT in Pat's team.
 

TheReligion

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Most important thing for me about this final is that two offensive teams face each other, playing on the front foot. Pressing & fast transitions from both sides, top notch attacking units. Agree with Mustard that GE/Invi will probably be better at keeping possession (great backline for it), with Mustard going more for pressing and directness. Probably lots of goals in this.

So the question for me is which team can manage the opposition assault better.

Not a fan of sheep logic generally, but I do see Carvajal as a weak point defensively, all the more so as he's up against Nedved. But then, GE/Invi's ADS-led front four is so damn good that it can cause similar problems without any clear weakness on the other side.
This was my thinking and why I voted @Pat_Mustard

His defensive unit is better in my opinion although I know some here overrate VVD.

The Carvajal-VVD side of the defence should have been reinforced at some point and I don’t think Zubizarretta is that great personally.
 

Physiocrat

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With a managerial career as long as Lobanovsky's (1968-2002) he'll have faced the full gamut of formations and systems. As regards a specific match where they coped with menacing wings, Dynamo's 4-0 trouncing of Barcelona in 1997 is a good example, as Barca fielded Sergi and Ferrer at FB and Rivaldo and Figo as the wide attackers.

I'm fairly satisfied with my defensive coverage on that wing. Amoros is the best FB on the pitch, De Bruyne is a tireless partner ahead of him who won't allow Alaba to run off him too regularly, and the steely Stielike will be sliding across and patrolling that side of the pitch as necessary. Not to mention that as far as dealing with crosses goes (not the only problem that trio will pose of course), Mozer and Stam are as good as gets aerially.

IMO, the left wing that's most likely to decide the match is Nedved tearing into Carvajal, who might struggle to cope with his powerful ball-carrying and ability to conjure some magic off either foot.
How much do you think Kalle will offer in the defensive phase? Will he offer his body to be an extra man in midfield?
 

General_Elegancia

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Most important thing for me about this final is that two offensive teams face each other, playing on the front foot. Pressing & fast transitions from both sides, top notch attacking units. Agree with Mustard that GE/Invi will probably be better at keeping possession (great backline for it), with Mustard going more for pressing and directness. Probably lots of goals in this.

So the question for me is which team can manage the opposition assault better.

Not a fan of sheep logic generally, but I do see Carvajal as a weak point defensively, all the more so as he's up against Nedved. But then, GE/Invi's ADS-led front four is so damn good that it can cause similar problems without any clear weakness on the other side.
Another point

Not a big point in this game but not that small details too

-Di Stefano and Schuster, two of them are not only hardworking players, but they're also incredible press-resistant players. Both have great short-passing skills, dribbling abilities in tight space( especially Di Stefano). So I think both of them could beat the opposition's collective pressing and if they beat I think what will happen next(not necessary to describe long about the spaces or the gaps behind). Plus Jansen is no mug on the ball too.

-My defenders(all of them) have great ability on the ball. They can beat the press in a lot of ways like dribbling, long passing, short passing, or anything else. All of the have very high quality, when they have the ball and all of them are fine passers too.

On Pat's side, I think all of his midfielders and defenders are no mugs on the ball too, so I will not criticize in this department. I just want to tell everyone that our side players are great on the ball and have the ability to beat the press at the highest level.
 

General_Elegancia

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My question @General_Elegancia is with no James Milner on the pitch who is going to give Virgil a bollocking for standing around with his arms behind his back during defensive phases? ;)
If he does in this match, I’m sure Di Stefano would kick his big ass. :lol:


Di Stefano wasn’t the type of person that ignore silly mistakes.

( I don’t think he will do that, if he do it Di Stefano will kick him off the team).
 

TheReligion

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If he does in this match, I’m sure Di Stefano would kick his big ass. :lol:


Di Stefano wasn’t the type of person that ignore silly mistakes.
:lol: I’m only teasing

You’ve got a lovely team. I would have liked to vote your way if you’d upgraded the defence but fair play for going all out with the forwards.

In the words of the famous LvG; We go for it!
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
How much do you think Kalle will offer in the defensive phase? Will he offer his body to be an extra man in midfield?
I would have thought so, for sure. @harms will have paid much closer attention to him in his CF days when he made that batch of videos of him, but my impression was that he was still a willing worker, certainly comparable to Czibor and Heynckes on the opponent's team.