Muslims and democracy

MikeUpNorth

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Do the people voted in, have the right to change their minds on policy, once in power? Is that democratic?

Example: Lib Dems and Uni fees
Yes, because a) the facts effecting their position might change, b) they may not have been aware of all the facts before, c) they may have to compromise with other elected representatives. Democracy is about compromise a lot of the time.

Just don't vote Lib Dem again would be my advice.
 

theimperialinn

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Eh? I've said myself that a pure democracy is impractical and impossible.

I was answering Mike's question about why people are saying there isn't 'real' democracy. Because in a 'real' democracy, in the pure sense, we would be having referendums on every big decision.

There is nothing wrong with the system now. But it isn't 'pure' democracy.
I've just re-read your point about the war in Iraq. It's funny because I remember when it started and don't recall any major opposition to it. Only with the benefit of hindsight are most people now appalled by it. So therefore I think your point about the referendum probably anywhere near what would have happened.
 

africanspur

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I imagine a lot of people won't. I thought it was political suicide at the time to u-turn so dramatically on perhaps the policy they were best known for. Backtrack on Europe, the economy, defence. Anything but the tuition fees.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Again, I'm not saying that its a bad system or that I would prefer a pure democracy. Just that we do not have democracy in its most literal sense.

And as Churchill said 'Democracy is the worst form of governing, except all the others'.
Do the people of the Muslim world not deserve democracy because it is not perfect? I don't see the relevance of what people were saying earlier in this thread - representative democracy is obviously hugely preferable to dictatorship or theocracy.
 

Sultan

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I've just re-read your point about the war in Iraq. It's funny because I remember when it started and don't recall any major opposition to it. Only with the benefit of hindsight are most people now appalled by it. So therefore I think your point about the referendum probably anywhere near what would have happened.
I seem remember one of the biggest march seen on British soil out in opposition to the war.
 

africanspur

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I've just re-read your point about the war in Iraq. It's funny because I remember when it started and don't recall any major opposition to it. Only with the benefit of hindsight are most people now appalled by it. So therefore I think your point about the referendum probably anywhere near what would have happened.
Oh right, you mean other than the million man march in London, other marches in English cities as well as Glasgow and Belfast in the British Isles? You mean other than the opposition from within his own cabinet, labour backbenches and labour members? Yep, Blair got that war right past us, no-one protested or was against it at all.
 

africanspur

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Do the people of the Muslim world not deserve democracy because it is not perfect? I don't see the relevance of what people were saying earlier in this thread - representative democracy is obviously hugely preferable to dictatorship or theocracy.
Who is saying that it isn't?
 

MikeUpNorth

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africanspur

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But neither of those state that theocracy and dictatorship are preferable to democracy, in whatever form. I'm not 100% sure on the purpose of bringing it up in the first place to be honest but it doesn't mean they're against democracy.
 

africanspur

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Finally found the site I was looking for:

Ipsos MORI | Comment & Analysis | Iraq, The Last Pre-War Polls

Do you support us going to war if...

The UN inspectors do not find proof that Iraq is trying to hide weapons of mass destruction, and the UN security council does not vote in favour of military action

Support: 26%
Oppose: 63%

The UN inspectors find proof that Iraq is trying to hide weapons of mass destruction, and the UN security council votes in favour of military action

Support: 74%
Oppose: 17%

The UN inspectors find proof that Iraq is trying to hide weapons of mass destruction, but the UN security council does not vote in favour of military action

Support: 48%
Oppose: 37%

The UN inspectors do not find proof that Iraq is trying to hide weapons of mass destruction, but the UN security council votes in favour of military action

Support: 46%
Oppose: 41%
 

MikeUpNorth

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Yeah, it depended on the wording of the question. Decisions of whether to go to war are rightly made by parliament though.
 

africanspur

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Generally I'd agree, regardless of how anti-war I usually am. The govt may have secret information we're not privy to blah blah.

It does rankle very much though when Blair and co flagrantly lie to push us into war and don't even have the common decency to at least wait for the UN to go about their business before rushing in there all guns blazing and fecking a country up.
 

MikeUpNorth

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The Americans dictated the timetable, not the British. In fact, it's well documented that the US administration didn't even want to bother seeking another UN resolution, it was only Blair that managed to persuade them to try, which delayed the war a while.
 

africanspur

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We didn't have to follow them in like little dogs.
 

MikeUpNorth

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We didn't have to follow them in like little dogs.
True, but when your closest ally is going to war, against a common enemy who you fought against in the first Gulf War, it gives you a tough decision.

Ultimately I think it was a mistake to join the Americans, though from a global political perspective it had its advantages that the US weren't seen to be going it alone. Obviously the Americans shouldn't have been going to war in the first place so the British government shouldn't have even had a decision to make.
 

VidaRed

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True, but when your closest ally is going to war, against a common enemy who you fought against in the first Gulf War, it gives you a tough decision.

Ultimately I think it was a mistake to join the Americans, though from a global political perspective it had its advantages that the US weren't seen to be going it alone. Obviously the Americans shouldn't have been going to war in the first place so the British government shouldn't have even had a decision to make.
You're not an ally though are you ? allies have an equal partnership...in this case usa orders you lot around and you obey them.

But you're right the blame falls on usa for the iraq war and not the uk because you were following them around like lapdogs.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Since when do allies have to have an equal partnership?
 

VidaRed

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A "master and servant" relationship isn't an alliance in its true sense.
 

Neutral

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http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/inline_images/FIW 2012 Booklet--Final.pdf

Is useless - not worth the paper it is printed on. Though it rightly praises Bangladesh, and says it is partly free(corruption being the real stickler) it is completely wrong with this....

Bangladesh received a downward trend arrow due to heightened political polarization and attempts by the government to improperly strengthen its hold on power, including through selective prosecutions of opposition politicians and increased harassment of nongovernmental organizations.


Selective prosecution of opposition politicians? WTF are they on about....the country has a War Crimes Tribunal going on to prosecute fecking Mullahs who sided with Pakistan during the independence war in 1971, in which they helped to rape and murder millions(hindu minorities as well as millions of fellow muslim 'brothers').

Genocide Bangladesh

These mullas(Jamaat E Islami) also happen to be religious bigots, so your damn right they are being prosecuted, as for being the opposition. Of course they're the opposition, they oppose everything positive the country and government tries to do...be friends with big neighbor, India, instead of getting into an adversarial relationship like Pakistan - they rant. Give free education for girls until year 12 - they rant. Make the study of science compulsory in the Madrassa system - they rant. Grant public holidays for significant Christian, Hindu and Buddhist religious occasions - they rant. Stop village mullahs from declaring bullshit fatwas that discriminate against women - they rant.
 

VidaRed

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Those jamaati wankers give a bad name to bangladesh. They get highlighted by the Indian media and people think most bangladeshies are like them. You should send them packing to pakistan if they like it so much that they'd defend a genocide against there own countrymen.

As far as democracy is concerned didn't the army try a coup just a couple of weeks ago ? I read that the Indian intelligence agency tipped your govt off and they acted quickly and arrested a few army men.
 

Neutral

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Those jamaati wankers give a bad name to bangladesh. They get highlighted by the Indian media and people think most bangladeshies are like them. You should send them packing to pakistan if they like it so much that they'd defend a genocide against there own countrymen.

As far as democracy is concerned didn't the army try a coup just a couple of weeks ago ? I read that the Indian intelligence agency tipped your govt off and they acted quickly and arrested a few army men.
A coup of sorts, Jamaati elements in the Army tried to start something, again so that the trials would end.

No chance of the Army trying to take power for good - they make an absolute fortune from the UN on peacekeeping missions, and have been told, any power grab would see the end of that.

So safe from a military takeover - but always worried about the Mullahs, what with all the financing they get from the middle east. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait threatened to send all guest workers home, if the trials weren't stopped. If it wasn't true, it would be a bad joke...

If the other main political party(BNP) didn't depend on the Mullahs, we could have wiped them out by now - but the bastards refuse to disavow them. :mad:
 

Sultan

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Those jamaati wankers give a bad name to bangladesh. They get highlighted by the Indian media and people think most bangladeshies are like them. You should send them packing to pakistan if they like it so much that they'd defend a genocide against there own countrymen.

As far as democracy is concerned didn't the army try a coup just a couple of weeks ago ? I read that the Indian intelligence agency tipped your govt off and they acted quickly and arrested a few army men.
You are aware the issues caused in Bangladesh is not the same (Tablighi Jamaat) which has it's headquarters in Nizamuddin? They are completely apolitical.

I'm sure Neutral is talking about Jamaat-e-Islami.
 

VidaRed

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You are aware the issues caused in Bangladesh is not the same (Tablighi Jamaat) which has it's headquarters in Nizamuddin? They are completely apolitical.

I'm sure Neutral is talking about Jamaat-e-Islami.
I know that.

Tablighi Jamaat hardly gets any screen time in the mainstream media in India while the jamaat e islami gets airtime whenever some India-Bangladesh issue is highlighted for there pro-pakistan stance. Both are different.
 

VidaRed

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A coup of sorts, Jamaati elements in the Army tried to start something, again so that the trials would end.

No chance of the Army trying to take power for good - they make an absolute fortune from the UN on peacekeeping missions, and have been told, any power grab would see the end of that.

So safe from a military takeover - but always worried about the Mullahs, what with all the financing they get from the middle east. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait threatened to send all guest workers home, if the trials weren't stopped. If it wasn't true, it would be a bad joke...

If the other main political party(BNP) didn't depend on the Mullahs, we could have wiped them out by now - but the bastards refuse to disavow them. :mad:
Bangladesh needs to wipe out any extremist from its establishment before you become another pakistan. Hopefully the present govt can win the elections again and come back to power. Throughout the subcontinent saudi money is making its way into mosques and they are thewing out the wahabi line. In India there is a power struggle going on between the majority sufis and wahabis but the media highlights the latter due to there extremist diktats.

Religion in the subcontinent is a very imp factor in elections and so its no surprise that politicians run to mullahs. Even in India politicians run to the religious "godmen" to get there approval. The shahi imam of delhi has endorsed the samajwadi party and "ordered" all muslims to vote for them. He must have gotten a fat envelop but muslims dont vote on his whims. Then in punjab some sikh religious man endorsed some other party. But compared to the 90's the elections in India are less focused on religion,caste and more on development, corruption etc

In general there is no hatred for bangladesh among Indians but illegal immigrants from bangladesh is used by right wing groups to bash bangladesh and try to sour the good relationship among the two countries.
 

africanspur

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I'm frankly distraught about the huge effect Saudi has on world Islam. Its disgusting the amount of disposable income they have, which they then use to finance books, madrasas and all other kinds of things worldwide, all teaching their extreme form of Islam.
 

VidaRed

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I'm frankly distraught about the huge effect Saudi has on world Islam. Its disgusting the amount of disposable income they have, which they then use to finance books, madrasas and all other kinds of things worldwide, all teaching their extreme form of Islam.
There reach is still limited in India but there presence is growing more in south India like kerela because people from here go in droves to work in the middle east. Only a small percentage of Indian muslims follow the wahabi doctrine and i believe once the petrodollars stop they'll get wiped out.

Hindu temple comes up in Bihar - with Muslim help

Sufism is in fashion. A 'Rockstar' can't pull in the crowds without riffing his guitar at the holiest of Sufi shrines; and any gathering of the swish set in big cities is not complete until someone whirls on their toes to the poems of Rumi.

In the real world - outside Bollywood's imagination and beyond sanitized zones of India's metros - it's a different story. The followers of Sufism and the visitors to the shrines of medieval saints have been feeling the pressure -of being cornered by extremist and narrow strains of Islam, which have been telling them that they are not "real Muslims" because they go to shrines or follow "un-Islamic" rituals.

Across the border, in Pakistan, Sufi shrines have been bombed and the devotees killed. Here in India, the attack has been only verbal. Fed up, Sufis are hitting back now, trying to reclaim the space that might have been ceded to the Wahabis - followers of puritan Islam who look down upon all other traditions.

The recently-formed All India Ulama and Mashaikh Board (AIUMB), which claims to represent Sunni Sufis - also called Barelwis - is now taking lead in this fight. At its well-attended meetings across UP recently, the AIUMB has been calling on its supporters to "resist the Wahabi interpretations of Islam" and accept the "tolerant, peace-loving" nature of Sufism as a counterpoint. The Barelwis claim to represent 80% of Indian

Muslims, with a large presence in Pakistan. But the question is, can they win this battle for the leadership of the community?

Incidentally, there is nothing new in this fight which has been going on for ages. "Divisions within the community are fairly old. Rise of Islamism and Saudi Arabia and the growing power of the ulemas in India contributed to such divisions," says Prof Imtiaz Ahmad, a sociologist.

But in present day India, the debate has taken a different turn. The Deobandis say Sufis are not "good" Muslims. And the Sufis accuse Deobandis of promoting Wahabism . "Deoband embodies the vestige of the Wahabi movement," says Prof Ahmad . But Darul Uloom Deoband rector, Maulana Abul Qasim Nomani, disagrees: "We have no connection with Wahabis."

Since the attacks of 9/11 and the wars that followed in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Muslims have been facing a question of identity. Now the debate has reached India , too, where Sufi roots are probably the deepest. AIUMB general secretary Maulana Syed Mohammad Ashraf Kichhouchhwi says Sufi khanquahs don't differentiate between "us" and "them" or Muslims and non-Muslims . Sufis or Barelwis are perceived as 'moderate' Muslims. "Besides admitting local culture and practices , they defend what existed as Islam in India," says Prof Ahmad.

Though the Deobandis consider visits to Sufi shrines or graves and seeking blessings bida or deviation from true Islam, for ordinary Muslims, especially in villages, such arguments make no sense. "They still find solace in the highly diversified eclectic Islam of India," says Ahmad.

Indian Muslims, according to scholars, are still rooted in their unique culture and there are no Wahabi-inspired hardliners in India. "At best you can call them mild fundamentalists. Muslims can't afford to be radical in India. About 95% of Indian Muslims have Hindu ancestors. So, Hindu culture dominates India, the basis of which is tolerance. For extremism to flourish , a Muslim majority country, like Pakistan , is needed," says Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan.

Even as the Sufi versus Wahabis debate rages in the subcontinent, there are many who believe that classifying Islam as moderate or hardline is a Western myth which has been propagated since 9/11. As the Taliban and fundamentalists professed Deobandi ideology, the US has used Sufi Islam as a counter force to terrorism. Since 2001, the US has helped Sufism by giving more than $1.5 million for the restoration and conservation of Sufi shrines in Pakistan , according to an article that appeared in the 'New York Times' in January 2011.

In India, the shrines don't need any external help. Their roots are quite deep. And now they are ready to fight for the protection of their tradition.

Times of India
 

Sultan

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Come on Vida!

Building shrines in honour of saints, prostrating in front of their graves, asking for their wishes to be granted is an un-Islamic deed.
 

VidaRed

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Come on Vida!

Building shrines in honour of saints, prostrating in front of their graves, asking for their wishes to be granted is an un-Islamic deed.
Only if the saints are being worshipped instead of God. I dont see anything wrong with paying respect to saints or for that matter anyone else. Though ive never been to a sufi shrine but half the people there are non-muslims. There are many traditions that Indian muslims follow that arabs dont like for example when a child is born a whole occasion is made out when his hair is cut but then saudi funded wahabi idiots issue diktats that it is unislamic. Far too often arab tradition is confused with Islam as a religion.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Only if the saints are being worshipped instead of God. I dont see anything wrong with paying respect to saints or for that matter anyone else. Though ive never been to a sufi shrine but half the people there are non-muslims. There are many traditions that Indian muslims follow that arabs dont like for example when a child is born a whole occasion is made out when his hair is cut but then saudi funded wahabi idiots issue diktats that it is unislamic. Far too often arab tradition is confused with Islam as a religion.
This is a fair point I think. There seems to be a lot of imposition by one brand of Islam on the others - surely it's up to each person how they want to practice their own religion? Even in this thread Sultan is branding things 'un-Islamic', but I don't see how someone can claim ownership of something so varied in practice and meaning. At best you can say things 'aren't my kind of Islam'. Ultimately, people can do as they please.
 

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I don't think the problem is with Islam as much as it with religion in general. No organised religion likes democracy and separation of church/mosque/temple and state much since it means people can't be told what to do.

Its just that organised religion is more powerful in the Islamic countries than in most others.
 

Relevated

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The problem doesnt lie with Islam, it lies with modern day muslims and their perception of Sharia law/Islam which is in most cases wrong.
 

devilish

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I come from a southern European country with a culture and a language similar to Arabic. Like most Muslim countries it had been colonized for many years, it had gained its democracy pretty recently (70 yrs or so) and like most Islamic countries its fiercely religious. The only difference is......its actually Catholic.

There were a time when the church used to dictate all that happened here and guess what, the people were ignorant and poor. My grandfather was criticized for his lifestyle. He had few children (6), he gave his children the best education possible (at a time when education was considered as the hidden hand of Satan) and he actually risked to be interdected (a form of excommunication) by the bishop for voting a secular party that risked of damaging the 2000 yr old hidden church rule which neither Napoleon Bonaparte himself was able to beat to submission. Guess what, people grew more educated and they started to put religion in its place. This year divorce was voted in referendum.

There's alot that the West can do to make sure that Islamic extremism doesn't take root in Africa. Investment, education and prosperity are some of them. Ignorance tend to breed superstition and desperation, which are the ideal breeding ground for extremism to make root and grow. I mean think about it. If you're unemployed, starving and with no future, and some 'merciful' man comes in and feed your family, wouldn't you do every type of 'sacrifice' to appease that person and make sure that he won't stop his charitable ways?
 

theimperialinn

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Oh right, you mean other than the million man march in London, other marches in English cities as well as Glasgow and Belfast in the British Isles? You mean other than the opposition from within his own cabinet, labour backbenches and labour members? Yep, Blair got that war right past us, no-one protested or was against it at all.
Claire Short, Robin Cook.

There's over 600 MPs in the houses of parliament.
 

theimperialinn

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Generally I'd agree, regardless of how anti-war I usually am. The govt may have secret information we're not privy to blah blah.

It does rankle very much though when Blair and co flagrantly lie to push us into war and don't even have the common decency to at least wait for the UN to go about their business before rushing in there all guns blazing and fecking a country up.
It's not that simple.

The UN were dragging their heels and Sadaam wasn't co-operating fully with the investigation.

If he didn't have WMDs he did a great job of making the west think he had.
 

anver

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Come on Vida!

Building shrines in honour of saints, prostrating in front of their graves, asking for their wishes to be granted is an un-Islamic deed.
Oh. Come on Sultan. You acting like the run of the mill Wahhabi?

We all know pretty well hardly anybody prostrates himself in front of the grave. Nobody worships the person in the grave. They do however, visit graves and offer a prayer.

That allegation of prostration and worship is old hat; something the Wahhabis use to convince gullible folk of the 'shirk' being committed by the visitors to a shrine.
 

Sultan

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Oh. Come on Sultan. You acting like the run of the mill Wahhabi?
Stop swearing :)


I've personally seen many people prostrating in front of graves. Shrines in such places like Ajmer, and Nizamuddin have become places where people go to fulfill the wishes. These places, and their guardians are just scamming innocent, and naive people.