[MadDogg]

The thing that bothers me the most is when we have possession in defence he completely vacates midfield and stands in the LB position.

I know people will say “it’s to cover for shaw pushing forwards” but it’s a complete waste. Instead of giving us a proper out ball into midfield, he leaves his midfield partner alone. They then receive the ball and we immediately get pressed and forced to lump it.

Yep, it's pissed me off for years. The main defensive midfielder absolutely should be slotting into the defence when the time is right, but Matic does it FAR too often and it results in us basically playing with one player in midfield by themselves. I always remember that photo from a couple of seasons ago where Pogba was in midfield by himself and there were literally seven (might have even been more but it was at least seven) opposition players closer to him than a single Utd player while Matic was sitting in the defence for absolutely no reason. It makes it so difficult for that midfield player by himself, and makes it so incredibly easy for the opposition to press him when they can so easily cut off any kind of passing angle other than straight back into the defence.

There was also one moment last night that really stood out to me. McTominay had the ball, passed it to Ronaldo and then burst forward. It was obvious that the right play was for Ronaldo to slip it inside to Matic who should then pass it forward to McTominay. A nice little bit of interplay to get behind the oppositions midfield and into a good position. It was obvious to me, and it was obvious to Ronaldo because that's exactly what he tried to do. Unfortunately Matic decided to randomly leave his midfield position and run back towards the defence, so Ronaldo's inside ball went into open space and Burnley broke into a somewhat dangerous position.

 

[NZT-One]

I understand your opinion and would agree, IF all there was to football was what meets the eye. Passing, shooting, dribbling, running. They are the easy things to pick up on. McT managed these things very well yesterday and is therefor praised by the majority (simply because its easy to spot).

BUT (arguable) the most important position is the holding midfielder. The player who can be there a whole game and people scratch their heads after the game wondering what he’s done all game. He has simply held the team together with 100% positioning. Matic managed it against Burnley.Would maybe not manage it against city. But take away this position and it all collapses.

I would also suggest this is exactly whats happened on and off the past 6-18 months.

So the submessage here is that "some" just are incapable to see what really matters. With you coincidentally being the exception? ^^

At the end of the day, it isn't 2014 anymore. Individual positions tend to mean less and less because managers tend to have systems where roles change within a single game. Matic is a dinosaur - it is great that he is able to "hold himself" against Burnley when they don't intend to press, when they concede the first goal after 8 minutes and are 3 down after 35 minutes. Matic still managed to look bad in a couple of situations in the 2nd half, I get it, nobody is perfect but some of the praise seems pretty hollow. I have no issues to accept that he is the best for the DM role we have, but that tells you way more about us as a team in terms of squad planning than it tells you anything about Matic. Even if there might be games, where I think we should make use of him, it should only be as a sub, never as a starter. His time is gone. His non-existent pace will prevent us from any meaningful pressing systems and his undenied tidyness is by far not enough to outweigh the negatives.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I understand your opinion and would agree, IF all there was to football was what meets the eye. Passing, shooting, dribbling, running. They are the easy things to pick up on. McT managed these things very well yesterday and is therefor praised by the majority (simply because its easy to spot).

BUT (arguable) the most important position is the holding midfielder. The player who can be there a whole game and people scratch their heads after the game wondering what he’s done all game. He has simply held the team together with 100% positioning. Matic managed it against Burnley.Would maybe not manage it against city. But take away this position and it all collapses.

I would also suggest this is exactly whats happened on and off the past 6-18 months.

Mctominay was praised because he played well, Matic is being criticised because he was dogshit.

If he was such a positional master why did they manage to get in behind him so many times?

Why did he fail to do his 1 main job and stop attacks through the centre of the pitch? he could have stopped Lennon but chose to leave Maguire alone.

Maybe you’re a specialist in silent domination like Gary Neville

 

[TSE123]

Mctominay was praised because he played well, Matic is being criticised because he was dogshit.

If he was such a positional master why did they manage to get in behind him so many times?

Why did he fail to do his 1 main job and stop attacks through the centre of the pitch? he could have stopped Lennon but chose to leave Maguire alone.

Maybe you’re a specialist in silent domination like Gary Neville

I would not say that I am a specialist, only very experienced and well informed no, im simply saying what I saw and have seen many games.

Based on reading the posts in this thread i would say majority saw what i saw and your opinion is therefore supported by a minority. Your two initial statements could thereforestart “Adam-utd thinks…”

i havent said Matic was perfect, BUT for structure and positioning he was key and in this role did very well. Wether you believe this to be of great importance or not is maybe the point where we disagree. I think it is essential and I back this up with a negative statement - when its not there the united midfield is like a black hole for opposition to run into.

I have also written that it was against Burnley and against this opposition Matic managed to do his job well. I think Matic could, being faster and fitter, do the same against better opposition.

 

[NZT-One]

I would not say that I am a specialist, only very experienced and well informed no, im simply saying what I saw and have seen many games.

Based on reading the posts in this thread i would say majority saw what i saw and your opinion is therefore supported by a minority. Your two initial statements could thereforestart “Adam-utd thinks…”

i havent said Matic was perfect, BUT for structure and positioning he was key and in this role did very well. Wether you believe this to be of great importance or not is maybe the point where we disagree. I think it is essential and I back this up with a negative statement - when its not there the united midfield is like a black hole for opposition to run into.

I have also written that it was against Burnley and against this opposition Matic managed to do his job well. I think Matic could, being faster and fitter, do the same against better opposition.

Majorities and minorities change quickly, so they are not an absolute indicator of "truth". Apart from that, we had a younger and fitter version of Matic. He still didn't really impress, his very first season was good but from then on, it was only a couple of spells that I would label as convincing.

He is done physically, I don't think, he can manage one full intensive game anymore. Therefor he shouldn't be in consideration for any thoughts regarding the starting eleven. He sure can be useful as a sub to bring more control and calmness into midfield. But it should be added to existing combatitiveness. Not in exchange for it. We have seen it - as soon, as he gets pressed, he will wander off deeper and deeper. And having Maguire around deeper means something. Maybe we can make use of him as a CB.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I would not say that I am a specialist, only very experienced and well informed no, im simply saying what I saw and have seen many games.

Based on reading the posts in this thread i would say majority saw what i saw and your opinion is therefore supported by a minority. Your two initial statements could thereforestart “Adam-utd thinks…”

i havent said Matic was perfect, BUT for structure and positioning he was key and in this role did very well. Wether you believe this to be of great importance or not is maybe the point where we disagree. I think it is essential and I back this up with a negative statement - when its not there the united midfield is like a black hole for opposition to run into.

I have also written that it was against Burnley and against this opposition Matic managed to do his job well. I think Matic could, being faster and fitter, do the same against better opposition.

you’ll soon learn that being in the majority on redcafe isn’t actually a good thing.

if 100 lemmings decide to jump off a cliff and 1 stays behind, who’s right or wrong?

anyway, you’re welcome to your opinion. You’ve made it clear that just standing in the right area is enough to impress you.

 

[TSE123]

Majorities and minorities change quickly, so they are not an absolute indicator of "truth". Apart from that, we had a younger and fitter version of Matic. He still didn't really impress, his very first season was good but from then on, it was only a couple of spells that I would label as convincing.

He is done physically, I don't think, he can manage one full intensive game anymore. Therefor he shouldn't be in consideration for any thoughts regarding the starting eleven. He sure can be useful as a sub to bring more control and calmness into midfield. But it should be added to existing combatitiveness. Not in exchange for it. We have seen it - as soon, as he gets pressed, he will wander off deeper and deeper. And having Maguire around deeper means something. Maybe we can make use of him as a CB.

Majorities and minorities in regard to a past event should hopefully not change too much. Apart from that i dont necessarily disagree with you. But still think he, or someone with his qualities, is key for a structured united.

you’ll soon learn that being in the majority on redcafe isn’t actually a good thing.

if 100 lemmings decide to jump off a cliff and 1 stays behind, who’s right or wrong?

anyway, you’re welcome to your opinion. You’ve made it clear that just standing in the right area is enough to impress you.

Im sure you have watched a fair bit of football and therefore you should know that “just standing in the right place” is quite a skill that not all strikers, midfielders or defenders (Hello Harry) manage. Its called positioning. Some strikers go through a whole career pretty much only ever scoring tap ins, and its hard to explain how they manage to always “just stand there”. so making it out as being a simple task anyone can manage it silly. Happy new year!

 

[NZT-One]

Im sure you have watched a fair bit of football and therefore you should know that “just standing in the right place” is quite a skill that not all strikers, midfielders or defenders (Hello Harry) manage. Its called positioning. Some strikers go through a whole career pretty much only ever scoring tap ins, and its hard to explain how they manage to always “just stand there”. so making it out as being a simple task anyone can manage it silly. Happy new year!

A broken watch shows you the right time two times a day Add to the effect of recognition bias's and you will find people who are perfect at spotting every little misstep from one player but are seemingly always on the toilet when another player makes a mistake.

I think, Opinions can change forever. Just look at Maguire, when he was added to the squad and played the first 10 games, he was lauded as one of the best CB in the country and Ole was named a genius for bringing him in. Look how that changed these days. Give it another half a year and an upspike in his form and we will have something new.

If RR thinks, Fred isn't the way to go, I am fine with it. But I hope we go out and get a few midfielders in January and not rely on Matic.

 

[jesperjaap]

He looked finished a couple of years ago and he looks old now. His chasing the ball down has gone and positionally he seems to be getting deeper and deeper for fear of his legs, even when we do have the ball.

I think he has been a decent success here, did better than I expece in all honesty the first couple of years. But the big thing for me seeign Matic now for us, is just how much it highlights what a huge failure it was by us not signing a central midfielder this summer. For when Matic does play he does show he is literally the only midfielder we have who can give himself time on the ball and cycle it proactively bar Pogba, but without the sloppyness of Pogba, he is also the only midfielder who can actually read the game defensively though his legs dont follow...despite him being past it really, he does still give us an all round consistency for his time on the field even wth the obvious weaknesses that simply isnt there from the quality of our other midfielders......something that should hav ebeen addressed in a better way than VDB as our only midfield signing in a while

 

[stw2022]

Just lumbers around like a giraffe with in inner ear imbalance. Complete liability against any midfield not willing to let him have all the time in the world on ball

 

[Van Piorsing]

Such a typical United player in the new era.

Great in Chelsea, dinosaur in United. Same goes to Ronnie, Cavani, Ighalo and tons of other players.

 

[mewnew11]

Sick of watching Matic play. He comes into the defence and leaves mctominay alone.

Sancho ronaldo Cavani and greenwood are all forward . Now it becomes simple for any team to mark our mctominay and cut out passing lines.
This is purely on matic as any half brained footballer would understand what's happening and step between the attack and defence to help.

But not matic consistently goes between defenders and then passes sideways. Just sell him in Jan rather play mejbri

 

[AltiUn]

Dunno how anyone could see his performance on Thursday and go "yeah more of that please".

 

[DickDastardly]

Slow. Cowardly. Shit game.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Do we have any youngsters who can play CDM? We must have someone we can try surely.

 

[Superunknown]

Needs upgrading.

(I'm being polite)

 

[NZT-One]

Who would have expected that...

 

[Litch]

Needs to play more they said, upgrade for Fred they said.....

 

[Conor]

He should be in China or the MLS.

 

[lex talionis]

His legs are gone, but we've known that for a long time now. Still, Matic is the best of the lot we have in midfield. Strange that no one within the club going back to the beginning of the Ole era gave a moment's thought to upgrading our midfield.

 

[TheMitz]

Thought he was on a par with Sancho tonight.

A cup player these days

 

[LingiBW]

How he always vacates the midfield area and forms an extra CB leaving his midfield partner alone, i'll never understand. It's happening under 2 managers now and the simple answer I can try come up with is its his way of hiding from responsibility.

He rarely does anything noteworthy when he 'fetches' the ball from defence, so for an experienced player, it shows a lack of higher thinking capacity to know that doing so creates more problems than it solves.

 

[SER19]

Not sure how he fits in with a high intensity pressing coach

 

[VanDeBank]

@NZT-One
The thing that bothers me the most is when we have possession in defence he completely vacates midfield and stands in the LB position.

How he always vacates the midfield area and forms an extra CB leaving his midfield partner alone, i'll never understand. It's happening under 2 managers now and the simple answer I can try come up with is its his way of hiding from responsibility.

He rarely does anything noteworthy when he 'fetches' the ball from defence, so for an experienced player, it shows a lack of higher thinking capacity to know that doing so creates more problems than it solves.

It's a tactic in the build up. It's common as dirt.

 

[DutchCruijff]

It's a tactic in the build up. It's common as dirt.

It's an incredibly silly tactic.

It leaves us with one man in midfield with a huge disconnect with the CFs.

It's useless, Wolves then just overload the central midfield and pin the half wingers back, especially when the full backs aren't overlapping.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It's a tactic in the build up. It's common as dirt.

Why don’t I see anybody else doing it then? please show me proof of a top side having their DM stand like that.

I know some CDMs drop between the centre backs to get the ball, but this is very different.

 

[Ali Dia]

Did any of you see the sky graphic of how we vacated the midfield in the first half? They put a big red box where there was no United players. It’s depressing. Matic is like playing with 10. We need players who’ll seize control and scrap it out and assert dominance and turn the screw. It’s just backwards and sidewards passes and hanging out in the back line. I hate watching him. He’s my least favourite player over the last few years. Just pointless.

 

[Jacky Quacky]

Surely DVB can do better than him? Surely??

 

[FrankDrebin]

Amazed he's still here.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It's a tactic in the build up. It's common as dirt.

You're honestly telling me this is a good thing? why can't Varane be doing exactly what Matic is doing, and Matic get his ass back into midfield so we can play through the lines.

This is just crazy, no wonder we are struggling so much.

 

[Beachryan]

He's literally been decent in one half against Everton - I believe in preseason - in 3 years now. Every single time he plays we're incoherent in midfield, and give up a ton of shots. He is doing more damage to the team than Ronaldo, or Sancho or even Rashford.

At least Ole seem to have clocked that, and basically never played him unless forced last season.

He seems like a nice guy etc etc but he is absolutely not a footballer at this level, and it scares the crap out of me that Ragnick sees something worthwhile and sends him out there a few games in a row.

 

[VanDeBank]

You're honestly telling me this is a good thing?

I said nothing of the sort. Learn to read.

 

[Red the Bear]

Very decent to have as backup, but unfortunately no more than that , his legs are gone so we shouldn't be looking at him as a starter week in and out.

Shame because at his prime he was a sight to behold, I got vey excited when we manged to get him from Chelsea but it seems they cashed in at the right time

 

[RUCK4444]

Amazed he's still here.

He shouldn't kick a ball again for us, has been terrible, not his fault his legs have gone but he also constantly roams forward out of position, abandoning what we need most in a DM (a solid base to screen the defence and start attacks.)

Too slow and the opposition play it around him like a lamp post, same with McTominay. IMO Fred is lightyears ahead of these two as far as who should be starting in our midfield, he's better at both the base of midfield and further up, whichever way you look at it, he needs to start in this current line up.

 

[RUCK4444]

Very decent to have as backup, but unfortunately no more than that , his legs are gone so we shouldn't be looking at him as a starter week in and out.

Shame because at his prime he was a sight to behold, I got vey excited when we manged to get him from Chelsea but it seems they cashed in at the right time

This is the thing, he WAS a very very good player. I've said for ages that a Matic who is 6 years younger would be the perfect player for us. But that's not the player we've had unfortunately.

This train of thought also tricked Ole into thinking we had top players in midfield imo, with him not realising he was past it.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I said nothing of the sort. Learn to read.

I'm asking if you think it's a good idea, you understand what a question is? as it's 'common as dirt' I assume you agree.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Not sure how he fits in with a high intensity pressing coach

my guess is - we had fred and mctom in to try high press, it was going very badly as ralf realised we would probably have all the ball every game vs the bottom of the league teams, as ole lvg and jose all found out. so we brought in matic who at least can use the ball better than fred and abandoned the press as the main tactical focus of the team. we were arguably worse vs wolves with this approach, but also must remember wolves are much better than the previous opposition.

 

[Red the Bear]

This is the thing, he WAS a very very good player. I've said for ages that a Matic who is 6 years younger would be the perfect player for us. But that's not the player we've had unfortunately.

This train of thought also tricked Ole into thinking we had top players in midfield imo, with him not realising he was past it.

Ole realized that about magic though basically resorting to never playing him at all.

But yeah your absolutely right prime matic would go a long way to amend our midfield problems, that's why I feel we might as well go looking for a matic archetype in the transfer window

 

[Ali Dia]

Fred is miles better. Think about how much Fred divides the fan base. He’s in a different league to old slow Matic and has been for years. The fact we have to keep going back to Matic and VDB can’t get a game just shows how scattergun and poor our recruitment has been. I’d do a better job myself but I would insist on taking hits and selling these kinds of players for whatever clubs offer. On the cheap if needs be. Just get them off the wage bill. I wonder which players whose deals are up and not contributing will we give improved terms to? It’s backwards. Imagine getting rid of about 10 players and bringing in 3 and having a better squad by the end? It’s obscene.

 

[VanDeBank]

I'm asking if you think it's a good idea, you understand what a question is? as it's 'common as dirt' I assume you agree.

You were asking a rhetorical question, and implying I thought it was a good idea:

You're honestly telling me this is a good thing?

Common as dirt means that something is common, not that it's desirable. Like people not reading properly.