New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford

Would you rather a new stadium or rebuild Old Trafford?

  • New stadium

    Votes: 630 49.1%
  • Rebuild Old Trafford

    Votes: 653 50.9%

  • Total voters
    1,283

Coops73

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Exactly. I think Ed's point about how The Emirates and similar stadium designs are so soulless was a great one too. They have to get the design right.

It's also such a good opportunity for Manchester as a city. I've said it time and time again, there is a huge opportunity to link up the Quays with Old Trafford and the canal with the city. Manchester is famous for it's ship canal, and it's making nothing of it. You should be able to walk to Old Trafford and the Quays along the water from town.

This could be massive for Manchester and connecting up the boroughs. Andy Burnham should stop beating on about Everton's perceived injustice and throw everything at this. Stop dicking around living out fantasy's of being a DJ and help deliver a game changer for the city.
The opportunity to make something really special and iconic to Manchester United and the surrounding area must surely be really exciting to Jim Ratcliffe, Ineos, Manchester as a city and Andy Burnham, (who I like, not sure about this DJ thing) who has already made suggestive noises that something is already being discussed.
 

Redivy

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As long as it’s not a generic glass bowl then I’d be happy with a new ground. Theres no way we rebuild and don’t allow for 100,000 capacity. 25,000 extra seats would be filled in 95% of games. I’m from Australia, and everytime I come over it’s such a stress trying to get tickets for any games. There should also be an allocation given to local schools, and sports clubs for each game.

A few people have mentioned the distance to the pitch in a new stadium and I’d argue that should be one of the top priorities, we have Accor Stadium here in Sydney that is a beautiful stadium but horrible for match goers due to the distance the first row of seats are from the pitch.
 

diarm

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When the inspections were done for the Euro's in 2028
Wasn’t the decision not to include OT made between the organisers and United, based on the likelihood that it would be going through renovations or replacement by that time?
 

stevoc

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Very true. The work of maintaining a stadium never ends. But if built well, a stadium can go a very long time without needing expensive renovations.

An example is Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles. It was built almost 70 years ago — hard to believe, I know — but has needed only cosmetic updates over the decades and nothing like a major overhaul yet is still one of the most glorious stadiums in North America.
Well I still hope for a refurb of Old Trafford personally but if we do build a new stadium I hope they take the time to put thought into it and largely future proof it so the club isn't in the same position 30-40 years down the line.
 

stevoc

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Found it. I looked through your previous post -

I was interested so did a bit of digging into this, the lease is long indeed, it lasts until 2071. But interestingly it's seems like it's actually United that are leasing the land. If I'm reading the document below correctly then United don't even own the land. It's on page 55/56 of this document.

https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files/M/Manutd-IR/documents/2021-mu-plc-form-20-f.pdf

So if I'm right and the club are only leasing the land then I don’t think there'll be a multi billion pound stadium being built on part of it any time soon.


As you say, on Page 56 it says -
Manchester International Freight Terminal, Westinghouse Road Trafford Park, Manchester . . . . . Investment properties Leased (through March 2071) 107,000
Footnote - The above properties are owned or leased by Manchester United Football Club Limited, apart from Castlemore Retail Park and Manchester International Freight Terminal which are owned or leased by Alderley Urban Investments Limited.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03132053
Alderley Urban Investments Limited. Nature of business: 68100 - Buying and selling of own real estate
Directors - Glazers and others

From the quick look I had I took it that because Alderley were 'buyers and sellers of own real estate' that they actually owned the land, they hadn't leased it. I may well have jumped to conclusions using the little bit of knowledge principle though as it's not my area of expertise. (I do have one, honest.)
Nice digging, it's not my area either mate. I couldn't tell you for sure if the land is leased or owned in a roundabout way by another linked company for whatever reason.

Though hypothetically even if the land was owned by the Glazers and not the club itself with new part owners looking to actually invest in United. I wouldn't hold out much hope that the Parasites would give the club a great deal on that land if the club needed to own it to build a new stadium on it.
 

stevoc

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When the inspections were done for the Euro's in 2028
I don't think it was even inspected by UEFA, it probably never got to that stage. The club and the FA agreed that it wouldn't be considered as a host stadium for Euro 2028 before the process began.
 

Utd heap

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I'd be devastated if we left OT.

We already have a tourism problem, would make it 100x worse.
 

SouthMancRed

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Nice digging, it's not my area either mate. I couldn't tell you for sure if the land is leased or owned in a roundabout way by another linked company for whatever reason.

Though hypothetically even if the land was owned by the Glazers and not the club itself with new part owners looking to actually invest in United. I wouldn't hold out much hope that the Parasites would give the club a great deal on that land if the club needed to own it to build a new stadium on it.
That was exactly my train of thought too. IF that key area of land is actually owned by the Glazers in some way then it completely opens up the club owning enough land to build a new stadium beside the current ground. Given my cynicism about everything Glazer though, if they do basically own that bit then it'll be to benefit them first and not the club. What a sad state we're in when more or less your first thought is how much could the club's owners could fleece United even more than they have.
 

Hal9000

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But Lucas Oil is inspired by a specific type of American building.
It was just built to fit into the red brick/steel/glass look that lot of the sport's arena nearby have, and some of those are inspired by one Victorian warehouses.

We could model the exterior of some of the old warehouse. Like viccy warehouse just around the corner or the old Behrans building (considering we celebrated the old textiles industries a few years back)



 

neon_badger

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That was exactly my train of thought too. IF that key area of land is actually owned by the Glazers in some way then it completely opens up the club owning enough land to build a new stadium beside the current ground. Given my cynicism about everything Glazer though, if they do basically own that bit then it'll be to benefit them first and not the club. What a sad state we're in when more or less your first thought is how much could the club's owners could fleece United even more than they have.
I suspect it's a combination of putting a stake in the land in view of a potential site for a stadium but primarily to keep any one else from using the land in a way that could affect United
 

SouthMancRed

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I suspect it's a combination of putting a stake in the land in view of a potential site for a stadium but primarily to keep any one else from using the land in a way that could affect United
It could well be. My uninformed take is that, even if it is the Glazers, it's better for the club to have that land owned by an organisation that is likely to sell rather than some anonymous group of financial investors that would never sell, as appears to be the current take. Other than cost and unlikely covenants there's nothing to stop United using that ground for a new stadium if that's the way they go. I think that's crucial. Maybe it's why the Telegraph put the two stadia in the places they did in their graphic.
 

stevoc

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That was exactly my train of thought too. IF that key area of land is actually owned by the Glazers in some way then it completely opens up the club owning enough land to build a new stadium beside the current ground. Given my cynicism about everything Glazer though, if they do basically own that bit then it'll be to benefit them first and not the club. What a sad state we're in when more or less your first thought is how much could the club's owners could fleece United even more than they have.
But that's what 20 years of incompetence, neglect and the Glazer cnuts funneling the clubs profits into their pockets will do to a fan base mate.
 

daba

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Listen

Some good suggestions from Paddock. Love the idea of making the players walk through the clubs history.
Listened to this last night. It really converted me to the idea of starting fresh with a brand new build on the adjacent site.

Things I’d like to see if we do go down the new stadium project are:

1) Tight and as close to the pitch as possible, creating that all important atmosphere. You see with so many other stadiums where fans feel too far from the action and the atmosphere stinks as a result. We can’t have that.

2) As Ste suggests in the video an 18-23 section with cheaper tickets to encourage and enable a new cohort of fans to match days and rejuvenate the match day fan base with more energy.

3) Adapt the current stadium into a new Youth and Women’s ground. This would keep some of the heritage of the current Old Trafford whilst also sharing the investment with other teams at the club. If Youth or Women’s games were scheduled earlier on the same day on occasions, then assuming we keep that ground to 15-20k capacity with £5 tickets and an extra spend of let’s say £10 for those going, that could mean an extra £225-300k revenue alone, which would be game-changing. It would also get some fans more invested in Youth and Women’s football which can only be a positive for those teams too.

4) This part is pretty much guaranteed but better on site hospitality options to improve match day experience for different subsets of fans and maximise revenue whilst we’re at it. Spurs have done really well to create spaces for people to eat and drink pre and post match, I believe doubling average revenue per ticket holder on a match day. This is not only a big benefit to the club for revenue etc, but also us fans. As Ste mentions, having some different bar areas, including a big on site bar with a big capacity for fans to come to before and after games. Also improving bar systems or technology so people can get a drink at half-time easily. All these things will add up and pay off the cost of the stadium like Spurs are doing with theirs.

In terms of aesthetics, I’d like to keep the fortress look of Old Trafford. Something modern yes, but it would be cool to have the current sloping roofs and white cantilever things replicated in some respect in a modern way either within the structure or maybe as a pattern in the roof when the lights are on on a match day. Would also be cool to keep things Manchester with a touch of red brick in places. Basically I’d prefer us not to have a standard meaningless modern design with some resemblance of our current historic ground.


Hopefully the team running the project speak to fans for ideas and feedback on what we’d like to see in terms of amenities and ideas for creating this new match day campus.
 

astracrazy

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So you want to build a new stadium without losing the old stadium?
Not sure if you didn't read my post or just didn't understand it.

You can build a new stadium without losing the character of the old one.....
 

wolvored

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I would hope a new build would be at least 110k seats/stands, with 100k for the home fans and the other 10k for away fans. Imagine having the highest and noisiest crowd atmosphere in Europe every home game, not to mention the revenue and help with FFP.
 

astracrazy

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Respectfully disagree.
Fair play.

I just don't want a stadium that doesn't represent Old Trafford at all. I still think you can carry over the characteristics of Old Trafford in a new design. I don't want us to do an Arsenal for example, where a lot of their stadium history and characteristics was lost.

I think it can be done.
 

RedRocket08

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3) Adapt the current stadium into a new Youth and Women’s ground. This would keep some of the heritage of the current Old Trafford whilst also sharing the investment with other teams at the club. If Youth or Women’s games were scheduled earlier on the same day on occasions, then assuming we keep that ground to 15-20k capacity with £5 tickets and an extra spend of let’s say £10 for those going, that could mean an extra £225-300k revenue alone, which would be game-changing. It would also get some fans more invested in Youth and Women’s football which can only be a positive for those teams too.
In the same camp about this, if we go with a brand new stadium. While I don't watch the full games, with the emergence of Garna and Kobbie I've really enjoyed watching youth football highlights, and I watch some of our women's games too. Would love for United to play their U18 and U23 games as well as all Women's games at Old Trafford - It would be an homage to our youth focus, and a positive way of preserving our history while also further developing our youth and women's games. Capacity can be reduced but maybe we can convert some of those stands into other solid revenue earners - e.g. restaurants leased out?
 

RedIan

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Id love to see old trafford modernised. The south stand is the issue as there is no room to build it up higher due to the train lines. On google earth, there is no space to divert the train line due to housing. Im wondering if they can build over the train lines, maybe create a tunnel? Probably pie in the sky.
looking at the foot print of the ground it looks to big to rebuild on the the adjacent land, carp parks etc?
I suspect we will get a new separate stadium but its hard to loose the history and attachment to Old Trafford.
 

neon_badger

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In the same camp about this, if we go with a brand new stadium. While I don't watch the full games, with the emergence of Garna and Kobbie I've really enjoyed watching youth football highlights, and I watch some of our women's games too. Would love for United to play their U18 and U23 games as well as all Women's games at Old Trafford - It would be an homage to our youth focus, and a positive way of preserving our history while also further developing our youth and women's games. Capacity can be reduced but maybe we can convert some of those stands into other solid revenue earners - e.g. restaurants leased out?
I've got it all planned for them. Extend the Musuem all along the bottom of the north stand, turn the remainder of the north stand into a hotel, with pitch facing balconies using the exec boxes (including the east/west stand boxes that are already connected) and built more inbetween the existing levels currently occupied by corporate suites, and more rooms facing out towards the Quays above the Fergie statue. Preserve the South stand as a football academy, all the infrastructure is already there. Turn the East Stand into a modern media/broadcasting academy, again the infrastucture is already there, this links with opportunities in the new stadium/Salford Quays/City Centre. Turn the West Stand into an academy for building/construction maintenance type qualifications, electricians, plumbers etc this again this links with the new stadium and surrounding areas. In addition to this a catering academy working throughout all the stands, using the pre-existing infrastructure and working with the new stadium. This way we maintain/preserve as much of stadium as possible and support the community with jobs/education instead of the vague regeneration I keep hearing about which usually takes the form of gentrification, particularly in manchester.
 

BristolMick

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Surprised to see so many fans vote for a new stadium, maybe because of the continental fan base of the club less people have a connection with Old Trafford. I think we should be doing everything possible to stay at Old Trafford.

I would like to see a renovation of Old Trafford, in a similar vein to Anfield, the Nou Camp or the Bernabau. There is no need to knock it down. Renovate each stand, one at a time to avoid having to stage matches elsewhere. Build over the railway - even build a train station for the staidum.

This club has been slowly gutted by the Glazers over the last 15 years, with a little bit of its soul cut away every year. More and more it is becoming a soulless corporate franchise, which has hollowed out Matt Busby's club and is now masquerading around with its badge and its name churning a dividend and a ridiculous capital gain for its overlords whilst the football gets worse and the infrastructure is left to rot. When we start playing in the Manchester United-Ineos partnership community stadium sponsored by Huwawei, that process will be complete and we will rue the great thing we've lost.
 
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parmenio

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I would prefer a total revamp. However will all come down to £££££ and whatever offers us a better return for our money. Maybe this is a way for SJR to increase his shareholding. Ie underwrite a share offer to pay for redevelopment say £1.5-2bn.Better than more debt.
 

RedRocket08

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I've got it all planned for them. Extend the Musuem all along the bottom of the north stand, turn the remainder of the north stand into a hotel, with pitch facing balconies using the exec boxes (including the east/west stand boxes that are already connected) and built more inbetween the existing levels currently occupied by corporate suites, and more rooms facing out towards the Quays above the Fergie statue. Preserve the South stand as a football academy, all the infrastructure is already there. Turn the East Stand into a modern media/broadcasting academy, again the infrastucture is already there, this links with opportunities in the new stadium/Salford Quays/City Centre. Turn the West Stand into an academy for building/construction maintenance type qualifications, electricians, plumbers etc this again this links with the new stadium and surrounding areas. In addition to this a catering academy working throughout all the stands, using the pre-existing infrastructure and working with the new stadium. This way we maintain/preserve as much of stadium as possible and support the community with jobs/education instead of the vague regeneration I keep hearing about which usually takes the form of gentrification, particularly in manchester.
That's a true house of learning right there, I'm not quite sure if you're being sarcastic with me here though ;) If we do go the route of a new stadium, I'd still like Old Trafford to be a big part of United, maybe we build it quite close-by? - I've been lucky enough to visit both OT and the Bernabeu and I'm quite envious of their museum / trophy room for one. Would love for Old Trafford to have that kind of trophy room - While I like the one that we have at OT, I thought the RM one was just class and made you appreciate every trophy as you walked through it. I think the concept of that round (home) dressing room that City have is quite cool as well, although we've only recently renovated ours.

If we're rebuilding and we still want to be best in class, we have to factor in things like capacity expansion (At least to 115K?) via expansion of the south stand perhaps while increasing the comfort level of attendees across the whole stadium, maybe a retractable roof, retractable field pitch complete with underground greenhouse, additional hospitality areas, better gym / player facilities, underground parking maybe, conference areas, better media enclosures etc. - It cost Madrid around 1.2 Billion pounds at ~2% interest to add all of those to a stadium that's about 40 years younger than Old Trafford, so it will likely cost us more. It's difficult to say as a fan whether such an exercise will be worth it, and whether a rebuild can make Old Trafford one of the best in class for the next 30 or so years.
 

next_number_seven

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That's a true house of learning right there, I'm not quite sure if you're being sarcastic with me here though ;) If we do go the route of a new stadium, I'd still like Old Trafford to be a big part of United, maybe we build it quite close-by? - I've been lucky enough to visit both OT and the Bernabeu and I'm quite envious of their museum / trophy room for one. Would love for Old Trafford to have that kind of trophy room - While I like the one that we have at OT, I thought the RM one was just class and made you appreciate every trophy as you walked through it. I think the concept of that round (home) dressing room that City have is quite cool as well, although we've only recently renovated ours.

If we're rebuilding and we still want to be best in class, we have to factor in things like capacity expansion (At least to 115K?) via expansion of the south stand perhaps while increasing the comfort level of attendees across the whole stadium, maybe a retractable roof, retractable field pitch complete with underground greenhouse, additional hospitality areas, better gym / player facilities, underground parking maybe, conference areas, better media enclosures etc. - It cost Madrid around 1.2 Billion pounds at ~2% interest to add all of those to a stadium that's about 40 years younger than Old Trafford, so it will likely cost us more. It's difficult to say as a fan whether such an exercise will be worth it, and whether a rebuild can make Old Trafford one of the best in class for the next 30 or so years.
Labour and other construction costs much cheaper in Spain also.
 

neon_badger

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That's a true house of learning right there, I'm not quite sure if you're being sarcastic with me here though ;) If we do go the route of a new stadium, I'd still like Old Trafford to be a big part of United, maybe we build it quite close-by? - I've been lucky enough to visit both OT and the Bernabeu and I'm quite envious of their museum / trophy room for one. Would love for Old Trafford to have that kind of trophy room - While I like the one that we have at OT, I thought the RM one was just class and made you appreciate every trophy as you walked through it. I think the concept of that round (home) dressing room that City have is quite cool as well, although we've only recently renovated ours.

If we're rebuilding and we still want to be best in class, we have to factor in things like capacity expansion (At least to 115K?) via expansion of the south stand perhaps while increasing the comfort level of attendees across the whole stadium, maybe a retractable roof, retractable field pitch complete with underground greenhouse, additional hospitality areas, better gym / player facilities, underground parking maybe, conference areas, better media enclosures etc. - It cost Madrid around 1.2 Billion pounds at ~2% interest to add all of those to a stadium that's about 40 years younger than Old Trafford, so it will likely cost us more. It's difficult to say as a fan whether such an exercise will be worth it, and whether a rebuild can make Old Trafford one of the best in class for the next 30 or so years.
I'm very serious, I'm not exactly sold on a new stadium, but I feel its inevitable, if so I want the original stadium to remain, Manchester is sprawling with swanky apartments and I'd hate to see another historic landmark sold to investors andvtorn down, the community needs better progressive investment that leads to jobs and opportunities
 

RedRocket08

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I'm very serious, I'm not exactly sold on a new stadium, but I feel its inevitable, if so I want the original stadium to remain, Manchester is sprawling with swanky apartments and I'd hate to see another historic landmark sold to investors andvtorn down, the community needs better progressive investment that leads to jobs and opportunities
Sorry for not being sure, your ideas are radical but I quite like them! It's definitely putting the Manchester back in Manchester as Jim wanted, with regards to creating jobs for the area. Agree about the inevitability of a new stadium, I fear we'd just be kicking that can down the road (with a lot of money spent), and not that far down the road either with a refurb.
 

Melville Red

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Perhaps we should get Phil and Kirsty on the job, Love it or List It? Personally I think it should go, to quote the king “it’s a carbuncle of a building”.
If you are spending nigh on £1billion then you have to plan for the future not today, the architects could easily place the objects that make OT special within the new stadium, ie the Munich Clock and memorial plaque, statues etc.

Don't let sentiment spoil a great opportunity move with the times, and build something that future generations will be proud of with the new museum showing great pictures and models of the current stadium in all its guises going back to when it was first built, showing all the history of this proud club.
My only proviso would be that the new stadium is built on site, very close to the present stadium.
 

Utd heap

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Surprised to see so many fans vote for a new stadium, maybe because of the continental fan base of the club less people have a connection with Old Trafford. I think we should be doing everything possible to stay at Old Trafford.

I would like to see a renovation of Old Trafford, in a similar vein to Anfield, the Nou Camp or the Bernabau. There is no need to knock it down. Renovate each stand, one at a time to avoid having to stage matches elsewhere. Build over the railway - even build a train station for the staidum.

This club has been slowly gutted by the Glazers over the last 15 years, with a little bit of its soul cut away every year. More and more it is becoming a soulless corporate franchise, which has hollowed out Matt Busby's club and is now masquerading around with its badge and its name churning a dividend and a ridiculous capital gain for its overlords whilst the football gets worse and the infrastructure is left to rot. When we start playing in the Manchester United-Ineos partnership community stadium sponsored by Huwawei, that process will be complete and we will rue the great thing we've lost.
Spot on.
 

WouterWeghorst

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Any estimates of how much loss of revenue it'd be for United to revamp the current stadium? Will take years of 10's of thousands of seats not to be filled, costing huge amounts I would expect. This cost will be counted into the 'costs' analyses by the people who will make the decision in the end and might influence stuff like FFP/how much you can spend on players for a prolonged time..

I'd love for United to stay at OT as it's such an iconic place that gave us so much, but in the end it'll probably be a 'business decision' by the people in charge.
 

diarm

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What if we built a load of plush VIP boxes and cool standing / viewing / entertainment areas above and behind the Sir Bobby stand, to reach up to the height of the other stands. You'd have to think there is enough room to build a facility like that and it would allow us to do a number of things:
  • We could move all the high end boxes and seating to that unit, giving more space in the other 3 stands to use for public areas, create more room for normal seating etc.
  • It allows us to replace the sloped and two part roof with a modern, symmetrical roof that covers everywhere the same and improves views and visuals.
  • We could fill in the quadrants right up to tier 3, creating thousands more seats.
Imagine something like this, but higher and with the rest of the stands wrapped around to meet it and then one all enclosed roof.

 

Big Andy

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The issue I see is that if we rebuild OT it's going to mean a couple of years at least away from the ground. The infrastructure works alone will take years and then you have to basically knock down and rebuild what's there anyway, right back to the structure. The roof would have to come off, the steelwork taken down, and then redesigned and retrofitted with a new roof, and all the associated electrical, mechanical and other services that you'd need to not only upgrade but also future proof while you're doing it.

The only way I can see it being acceptable is if they build a brand new state of the art stadium in the confines of OT (like Spurs did with their new ground) and play at OT until its ready if there is room. But I wouldn't want a bog standard bowl stadium, i'd want something unique and in keeping with the industrial style of Old Trafford.
 

Adebisi's Hat

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who do you feckin think ?
What's the chances of Jassim coming back in on this ? If a new stadium is built , which given the acreage available to club , it would be a sin not to, it will need to be the best in the world with no close rivals. I'm all for nostalgia but what happened all the dudes that moaned about leaving Newton Heath.
 

Don_Johan14

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Yeah for sure + inflation + also the fact that we won't get such favourable loan terms like Madrid (Although I think they got it through their govt. connections) did at this point in time.
Barcelona obtained a decent interest rate for the context at the time (5.5% on average).
The big news is that a Turkish company was aiming to enter the Latin American market, and that made their offer brutally good. It would be negligent for Barcelona not to accept it.

Maybe some company wants to make a big offer in order to have the cache of having done the remodeling of Old Trafford.