Newcastle Sex Grooming Network

[Classical Mechanic]

Surprised that the 'Google diversity memo' generates so much debate on here whilst this case isn't being talked about.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/09/newcastle-sex-grooming-network-operation-shelter

There are many debating points of interest

1. The police paying a convicted pedo to help them gather information, possibly endangering children.
2. Political correctness actually going very mad which allowed these grooming networks to operate unchecked for years.
3. The question of a racist component in the crime, Muslim men that see white girls as inferior and fair game to abuse.
4. Broader questions about misogyny and rape in the UK.

 

[Zarlak]

I read about this the other day and the main outrage seemed to be that this guy had been paid £10,000 for his work. I can understand the outrage from the victims of this XY being used by the police but at the end of the day if he's served his time and he's considered as someone who has paid his debt to society (not sure if he has, haven't seen it reported anywhere but you'd assume he has since he's not in jail) then he's entitled to earn a living.

Whilst this may feel uncomfortable, the police have essentially said that the ends justify the means and that without this persons help they would not have been able to bring down some of the people that they have.

Putting personal feelings aside, that is objectively a good thing and will stop many more people from becoming victims. For all the outrage of him earning £10,300, he's just as free to go and get a job that pays him £16,000 if he wanted to. There seems to be a culture of people wanting somebody to continue to suffer long past the point where they've paid their debt to society. The police use informants all the time, it's uncomfortable but sometimes necessary.

 

[Ian Reus]

Every single one of those cnuts should be deported. Whether their home country is too dangerous or not.
They tar the name of the good people who come to the UK for a new life.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Every single one of those cnuts should be deported. Whether their home country is too dangerous or not.
They tar the name of the good people who come to the UK for a new life.

Think a lot of them are probably born in the UK.

 

[jojojo]

I think one reason it's not had its own thread is because there's a horrible feeling, "another one." Where none of us feels like we have much new to say. But I'll throw in one point. My own instincts are that this is less about the police trying to be PC than it is about them holding the girls who fall victim in contempt.

Some of the girls will be known to the police in various ways, falling down drunk, causing a disturbance, drug abusers, runaways, truants. Girls who are trying to report abuse, are distrusted. The person listening may not say, "You asked for it, what did you expect getting in that state, with those blokes," but it's there, and instead of seeing under age kids they see feral teenagers.

That's if the girls dare to report it. Fear of the abusers is one element but there's also fear of being disbelieved or ridiculed, or of their parents, or their teachers finding out. Even the fear of being driven home in a police car and what story that tells the neighbours.

It's no wonder that some victims actually start to claim that it's their own choice, and they're enjoying the perks and don't care about the sex. But there's a reason why concepts like age of concept are important, there are some choices no kid should have to make.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think one reason it's not had its own thread is because there's a horrible feeling, "another one." Where none of us feels like we have much new to say. But I'll throw in one point. My own instincts are that this is less about the police trying to be PC than it is about them holding the girls who fall victim in contempt.

Some of the girls will be known to the police in various ways, falling down drunk, causing a disturbance, drug abusers, runaways, truants. Girls who are trying to report abuse, are distrusted. The person listening may not say, "You asked for it, what did you expect getting in that state, with those blokes," but it's there, and instead of seeing under age kids they see feral teenagers.

That's if the girls dare to report it. Fear of the abusers is one element but there's also fear of being disbelieved or ridiculed, or of their parents, or their teachers finding out. Even the fear of being driven home in a police car and what story that tells the neighbours.

It's no wonder that some victims actually start to claim that it's their own choice, and they're enjoying the perks and don't care about the sex. But there's a reason why concepts like age of concept are important, there are some choices no kid should have to make.

So you believe the authorities are trying to pass the buck?

 

[MJJ]

Is this culturally acceptable too @Pogue Mahone?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Is this culturally acceptable too @Pogue Mahone?

I heard a Muslim woman on a Radio debate playing down the racist component by stating that Muslim girls are abused too but they are unheard. Does this imply that there is a conspiracy of silence in some Muslim communities around this type of crime?

 

[MJJ]

I heard a Muslim woman on a Radio debate playing down the racist component by stating that Muslim girls are abused too but they are unheard. Does this imply that there is a conspiracy of silence in some Muslim communities around this type of crime?

There might be as a muslim girl is less likely to advertise the fact that she was abused or raped due to the society generally being conservative and the parents maybe not being as supportive.

 

[Rado_N]

Is this culturally acceptable too @Pogue Mahone?

Why do you repeatedly ignore the central point to his argument in that thread? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is this culturally acceptable too @Pogue Mahone?

I dunno. I'm no expert. What do you think?

It's definitely a worry that this seems to be associated with a specific type of perpetrator. It certainly won't help with the challenge of building a properly integrated society in the context of mass immigration from the middle east. This all adds fuel to the flames.

 

[Randall Flagg]

A lot of these rings that are being uncovered appear to be majority muslim, not sure what is going on or are these the only ones we hear about

 

[Randall Flagg]

Is this culturally acceptable too @Pogue Mahone?

What is this in relation to?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

A lot of these rings that are being uncovered appear to be majority muslim, not sure what is going on or are these the only ones we hear about

I think there's a lot we don't hear about, a friend of mine works in victim services and apparently the amount of abuse is quite shocking. This is also the country that let Jimmy Saville and his own rings get away with it for years.

 

[villain]

A lot of these rings that are being uncovered appear to be majority muslim, not sure what is going on or are these the only ones we hear about

I'm not sure you can make such a bold blanket statement, or even if the demographics of those involved matter.
The Jimmy Saville ring seemingly involved lots of rich old white men over decades.

 

[Rado_N]

What is this in relation to?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pakistan-village-council-orders-revenge-rape-of-girl.431101/

 

[Zarlak]

I think there's a lot we don't hear about, a friend of mine works in victim services and apparently the amount of abuse is quite shocking. This is also the country that let Jimmy Saville and his own rings get away with it for years.

This. Jimmy Saville, Rolph Harris, Stuart Hall, Fred Talbot, Ray Teret, Max Clifford, Gary Glitter, Dave Lee Travis, the Catholic church, the covered up rings in government and at the BBC but you hear of a couple of Muslim paedophile rings and all of a sudden 'the majority of these are muslim'.

 

[Randall Flagg]

I'm not sure you can make such a bold blanket statement, or even if the demographics of those involved matter.
The Jimmy Saville ring seemingly involved lots of rich old white men over decades.

It wasnt a statement at all, more just what I see more of generally being reported, which is why I asked if these are the ones we hear about mostly

I have no idea if its the case or not

 

[Randall Flagg]

This. Jimmy Saville, Rolph Harris, Stuart Hall, Fred Talbot, Ray Teret, Max Clifford, Gary Glitter, Dave Lee Travis, the Catholic church, the covered up rings in government and at the BBC but you hear of a couple of Muslim paedophile rings and all of a sudden 'the majority of these are muslim'.

very true and in fairness these all got massive coverage as well

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think these type of networks are mostly Muslim, that is not to say that Muslim's are over represented in rape cases generally, however.

 

[MJJ]

Why do you repeatedly ignore the central point to his argument in that thread? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Because there is no central point given the statistics.

 

[MJJ]

I dunno. I'm no expert. What do you think?

It's definitely a worry that this seems to be associated with a specific type of perpetrator. It certainly won't help with the challenge of building a properly integrated society in the context of mass immigration from the middle east. This all adds fuel to the flames.

And yet you were pretty definitive in your statements previously, guess you were an expert then.

 

[Randall Flagg]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pakistan-village-council-orders-revenge-rape-of-girl.431101/

would the story in this thread not go against @MJJ s argument?

 

[villain]

It wasnt a statement at all, more just what I see more of generally being reported, which is why I asked if these are the ones we hear about mostly

I have no idea if its the case or not

Ah okay, fair play.

I don't really think it matters what these people look like, the problem isn't restricted to culture or race imo.

 

[MJJ]

What is this in relation to?

Pogue inferring that rape is somehow culturally acceptable in Pak,India and African countries.

 

[MJJ]

would the story in this thread not go against @MJJ s argument?

Not really, unless you think that british asians have the same culture as the ones in villages of Pak,India,Africa.

 

[jojojo]

So you believe the authorities are trying to pass the buck?

I think they know that multiple failures are at work. I just think it's too easy to say that the authorities would have acted better if it had been a group of white guys. Historically, the evidence is that white guys have got away with similar crimes and for similar reasons of not seeing the victims as victims.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Ah okay, fair play.

I don't really think it matters what these people look like, the problem isn't restricted to culture or race imo.

If the social theory that rape is a consequence of misogyny is correct then wouldn't that mean that more misogynistic cultures have a greater problem?

 

[Rado_N]

Because there is no central point given the statistics.

His point was specifically in relation to the examples such as that in the other thread when it's used as some fecked up method of 'justice', as was made perfectly clear, yet you continuously ignore that for some reason.

 

[JPRouve]

Pogue inferring that rape is somehow culturally acceptable in Pak,India and African countries.

I have a great-uncle that leaves in India and apparently rape is very common but it's a taboo, so people don't talk about it and victims are afraid to be ostracized.

 

[MJJ]

His point was specifically in relation to the examples such as that in the other thread when it's used as some fecked up method of 'justice', as was made perfectly clear, yet you continuously ignore that for some reason.

Like it routinely happens in western prisons?

 

[villain]

If the social theory that rape is a consequence of misogyny is correct then wouldn't that mean that more misogynistic cultures have a greater problem?

Not necessarily, no. Rape culture in this country and others like it, is terrible also.

edit;

But i'd argue that this country and others like it are also very misogynistic.

 

[Rado_N]

Like it routinely happens in western prisons?

By order of local authority figures? Come on, you know full well that's a silly comparison.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And yet you were pretty definitive in your statements previously, guess you were an expert then.

Are you being thick or deliberately disingenous here?

I was referring to a specific incident where a council of elders had issued orders to rape a young girl. It was clearly culturally acceptable in that specific circumstance because the villagers went ahead and complied with their decision. How hard is it for you to get your head round this?

Moving back on topic, do you really not see any kind of a common theme between these two threads? It it really just a complete coincidence that we keep hearing about misognyist atrocities being associated with people from a specific cultural background? I don't want to jump to any conclusions here, as I hate the way stuff like this is used by the far right to endorse racism and islamophobia but there's an elephant in the room here and pretending it doesn't exist helps nobody.

 

[MJJ]

By order of local authority figures? Come on, you know full well that's a silly comparison.

The local authority figures arent elected, they are chosen by the villagers and hold no "real" authority under the government. How is that different from a prisoners authority?

 

[Jippy]

Pogue inferring that rape is somehow culturally acceptable in Pak,India and African countries.

It doesn't tend to be incorporated into the punishment systems here, but let's not derail the thread.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Ah okay, fair play.

I don't really think it matters what these people look like, the problem isn't restricted to culture or race imo.

I agree to the extent that there are paedophiles and sex criminals from every religion, race and walk of life and that demonising a particular group or set of groups is wrong. However we need to be clear that in this case and in others such as Rochdale we are talking about men of Pakistani/Bangladeshi origin grooming and abusing young white girls, and that the problem specifically in these cases comes from those communities.

So while it is of course true to say that 'the problem [of organised paedophilia] is not restricted to culture or race' we have to be honest and say that actually, in this and other very specific cases, it is restricted to (certain, obviously not all) men from these groups. The 'what about Jimmy Savile/'70s BBC?'-type comments don't get us any nearer to tackling this specific case and cases like it.

 

[Rado_N]

The local authority figures arent elected, they are chosen by the villagers and hold no "real" authority under the government. How is that different from a prisoners authority?

You think prisoners get together periodically and chose who will be put into a position of authority amongst the inmates and those people then hear trials and hand out sentences?

This is why trying to have discussions with you is pointless. Don't bother replying, I'm out.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The local authority figures arent elected, they are chosen by the villagers and hold no "real" authority under the government. How is that different from a prisoners authority?

Because the village isn't made up of a bunch of people - all of the same gender - who have been locked up for rape and murder, for starters.

The gender point being key. I struggle to comprehend how that incident in the village could have been allowed to happen if the women in that village had any kind of voice or authority. Which brings us back, again, to misogyny and the inferior role that women have in some societies.

 

[MJJ]

Are you being thick or deliberately disingenous here?

I was referring to a specific incident where a council of elders had issued orders to rape a young girl. It was clearly culturally acceptable in that circumstance because the villagers went ahead and complied with their decision. How hard is it for you to get your head round this?

Moving back on topic, do you really not see any kind of a theme here? It it really just a complete coincidence that we keep hearing about misognyist atrocities being associated with people from a specific cultural background?

There seems to be some sort of deep, endemic misogyny. Specific religions often get the blame for this but it sometimes seems as much regional as anything to do with religuous texts.

What is it with gang rapes and mob "justice" in India/Pakistan? Is it just a function of poverty/lack of education? Or something else, unique to the locality? Does the same stuff happen in poverty-stricken regions of Africa or the Americas? Asking because I don't know the answer.

This was your original and follow up post. I really do not see the disclaimers that you have later thrown in and to infer anything about the culture of a whole region based on the actions of a small village is a bit laughable if I am being kind.

How is the culture of asians raised in britain similar to those raised in small villages?

I was reading this earlier.

"I’m so focused on my business. I gotta be honest with you,” Ross continued. "She's lookin' good, I'm spending so much money on her photo shoots — I gotta f--k a couple times.”

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity...comments-about-signing-female-rappers-w494325


There are numerous misogynist actions and statements attributed to the pop culture in america, so where is the theme? Unless you believe they have asian blood too.