Interesting opinion. Couldn't disagree with it more but certainly interesting to hear that point of view. Thought it was pretty much accepted DDG's time is up.
No.1 for next season - De Gea or Henderson?
- Thread starter saivet
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Whilst this is interesting, these stats can be very dependent on the team and/or manager the keeper plays for.
Worth noting in regards to whether we want a keeper who is neither De Gea nor Henderson, I think.
Over the last few years one of the criticisms of De Gea has been that he isn't a "modern" keeper in terms of sweeping or distribution. If that's the type of goalkeeper you want then Henderson isn't the answer either. He is better than De Gea in certain regards (most obviously in claiming open play crosses, I think) but he is still fundamentally a shot-stopper.
Your closed mindedness is embarrassing.
I think de gea is better than henderson. I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. I think strawberries are nicer than apples. Do you see where I am coming from?
You seem to struggle to accept the fact that everyone has opinions, some differing to your own.
Have a good evening.
True. In Henderson's case it's particularly difficult as we're largely judging him off his performances for Sheffield United in one season. Still, we can only judge by what he's shown really.
Fair enough but at the end of the day he is under contract until 2023 and may well stay beyond that. Who knows what will happen in the future.
I'll have the ticket if he doesn't want it, cheers.
I don't want to repeat myself but with so many thread about same stuff, you sometimes must i guess.
First of all stats. Fans love to throw stats. But stats don't give clear picture lots of times. Of course that gk from smaller team will have better stats than many gks because he is 90 minutes of every game under fire.
Also most important thing by far is saving shots. "Commanding gk", "sweeper gk" and things like that are nice and all but saving shots is gk's prime job. And Man Utd gk must pull saves which average gk will not. Big club gk must save 100% chances. Save points for his team. DDG is (i think) is still great in it. And as i said, he is 30y old so he is far from being in decline.
Henderson is a gk who saves what he must. You can say reliable gk. But he will not bring us points on his own. He will not save "unsavable" shot. Because he is not that quality. Especially in one on one situations. He is bloody awful in that.
So yes, i think that DDG is still good. Without being fanboy or something. I don't ever judge our players by the fact are they from academy, nationality, legend status or something. I care only about their abilities at that moment. Club comes first. Rooney is my favourite United player of all time but when he declined, i accepted that it was time to move. I don't think that DDG is in decline and i don't see anything about Hendo by which he deserves to be no1 in Man Utd. As some people said here; he reminds me on Pickford and between those two, i think that Pickford is better gk. Which tells a lot about Hendo.
So why does De Gea have 67.5% of shots stopped, which is in the bottom 5 worst for GKs in the PL, whereas Henderson has 86.4%?
Last season, De Gea had 73.6%, whereas Henderson - 75.2%. So 2 seasons in a row, Henderson is outperforming De Gea.
Scrap that, the season after World Cup 2018, DDG finished with 71.6% shots stopped, while Dean was at 73.5%. So for the last 3 seasons, Henderson has been better at the one aspect you say you value the most in a top class GK for a big club.
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Yeah, as i said; that throwing of stats is ridiculous and gives false picture about gks. Henderson had 10-15 saves vs Chelsea and City. Do you remember any clear (100%) chance by them in that game?
How do these stats give a false picture, when I've also been watching every single one of our games and I think De Gea has been one of our worst players this season? Just because it doesn't fit into someone's agenda, doesn't mean factual evidence is not true.
I have no personal issue with DDG, I appreciate everything he has done for the club, but he has been shite for 3 seasons in a row, and I feel he cost us a title challenge this season with his amateurish performances.
I shared my stats source, you can check the other even more in-depth data available, that also takes into account the quality of shots faced and their expectancy to result in a goal. Henderson is clearly superior in that department as well, which I've already concluded by watching the 2 goalies this season.
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It is not everything about agenda or personal feelings. I don't care who is who in this comparism. As you (and i guess all fans) i watch every game too. And i see that DDG saves tough shots. Henderson doesn't. Look at all goals which he conceded. It is easy to say "Oh, not his fault". Yeah, it is not his fault but lets be honest; are you sure that most of that shots were unsavable? No they were not. Basically every goal can be saved but it depends how good gk is. How well he is positioned before the shot, how good are his reflexes, how good he reads situation, etc..
Ok, you don't rate DDG anymore and i don't rate Hendo. Case closed.
De Gea has the worst save percentage of starting GKs in the top 10 of a shocking 64%. For a GK who's best attribute is shot stopping that's a VERY bad stat considering he doesn't come out his line, isn't a sweeper GK and isn't commanding tell me why such a GK is worth persisting with? Those attributes don't just magically appear when they never existed for 10 years it's you either have it or you don't and De Gea doesn't.
You are being intentionally forgetful if you think De Gea hasn't made any errors over the last 3 years there's loads of comps with them. If it was just a year or a few months you'd excuse it but 3 years worth of mistakes is not a blip.
De Gea may be the better GK now(IMO he isn't) but his graph is going down from here Henderson's is going up and he's shown more in his all round game to give a proper chance to. Letting him thrice elsewhere while De Gea continues to be error prone on his wages is NOT a good picture for us there is no sugarcoating
Can't see either of them as a long term solution, but since we have other priorities I would sell De Gea if possible and back Henderson next season as I trust him a bit more atm.
Have a feeling we will be in the market for a keeper in a year or two no matter which one we choose as our number 1.
Have a feeling we will be in the market for a keeper in a year or two no matter which one we choose as our number 1.
I can agree that you can rate one player and I might rate another. What I will never agree to is projecting "feelings" and "hunches" as better measurement about performances, rather than rely on the numerous factual and statistical evidence, which a lot of the time relies on very professional analysis and compiling all sorts of data to make it more sensible and more genuine.
Henderson is the guy who suddenly believes he is at the same level as De Gea just because he happens to play for the same club. DDG was a world class player who has gone down a few notches but is still one of my the best around. Hendo has a lot to prove to be able to fill his boots.
I am not into stats as you but didn't Smalling and Jones had amazing stats while they played under Mourinho? And whole defence in general. Defence Valencia, Mike, Phil and Young. What that tells you?
It tells me we played under one of the most defensive managers in the world, whose main strategy was parking the bus and praying on De Gea's unbelievable shot-stopping ability at the time.
We play totally different now and by applying context, I judge the GKs differently. But what's funny to me is that not only do I believe Henderson is a better and more rounded keeper currently, I think he is better in the one department that De Gea used to be god-like at - shot-stopping. So I don't see any way for people to objectively defend DDG and claim he should still be number 1. You can go on emotions and belief, but I prefer to look at the cold facts and to see what the trend is with both players, rather than just hope De Gea will somehow regain his 2017/2018 form.
De Gea hasn't been "one of the best around" since 2018. And Hendo definitely needs time to prove himself, which he should get by becoming our number 1 for the rest of the season. Then Solskjaer can evaluate the situation in the summer and decide if he can be trusted for the future, or if we need to look for a world class GK.
1) So stats don't apply there? How is that? Stats don't lie. How you can be subjective about something while having pure stats which say something else?
2) We don't play different now. We play exactly like we played then but it is other topic
3) Hendo is better one on one? Well, that is just bs. Hendo is awful in one on one. He doesn't even close attacker on those situations.
Scrap this last part. I thought you said one on one. My bad
You are probably misunderstanding my post on purpose. I don't mind, I backed my stance extensively and gave enough evidence so I'm not going to repeat myself. Nobody, you included, has provided any data to support their claims, whilst I have.1) So stats don't apply there? How is that? Stats don't lie. How you can be subjective about something while having pure stats which say something else?
2) We don't play different now. We play exactly like we played then but it is other topic
3) Hendo is better one on one? Well, that is just bs. Hendo is awful in one on one. He doesn't even close attacker on those situations.
Scrap this last part. I thought you said one on one. My bad
Another poster had the stats about 1v1s, although he stopped replying when I asked him what exactly qualifies as 1v1s, but he showed that this has been the biggest drop off in De Gea's abilities in the last 3 season, from like 66% to 33% (I'm not claiming these are the exact numbers, I'm going by memory).
Perhaps. But we know for sure that he's counting down the days till the summer!
Yup, that was me.
Couldn't find the definition the guy who posted the stats used for what constitutes a 1-on-1 but from the examples they seemed to be 1-on-1s as we'd know them.
You're right about the drop off but it was specifically in terms of what he classified as close-range 1-on-1s (which I think he measured at 13.5 yard mark as that's the point his stats suggested the optimum way of dealing with 1 v 1s shifted).
De Gea went from saving 61% of those close range 1 v 1s in 17/18 to 33% in 18/19 and finally 30% in 19/20 (with the average being around 50%). Whereas he remained one of the best at long range 1v1s (saving approx 70% of those he faced in 19/20, as I remember it).
The gist of the analysis was that De Gea is very good at not committing early but rather waiting on the striker to make a decision and trusting his reflexes to make the save, which is statistically the best approach for longer range 1 v 1s. But that isn't the case on closer range 1 v 1s, where engaging the striker is the better approach. And that's where De Gea has struggled, either by shying from the challenge (as we saw in the Leipzig and Everton games, for example) or through technical faults in his block attempts (not being close enough when he drops into the block, not timing the block accurately, etc.).
So yep you're right, De Gea's general shot-stopping game has definitely declined and that's likely a big part of why. Then add in the more obvious handling errors where shots have slipped through his hands too.....
Though what's interesting about that analysis (I think) is that it suggests that technical inaccuracies and concentration are the issue rather than (as some believe) De Gea's reflexes slowing with age. I'd love to see some stats on his shot stopping in other situations (specifically more reflex-dependent ones) to see if his reflexes are holding up in that regard. Because if they are then I wouldn't be surprised if a change of scenery (new country, new club, new goalkeeping coaches, new challenge) saw a revitalisation in form on his part. It's just harder to see it happening here if it hasn't already.
It would also be interesting in terms of the Henderson comparison as it could mean that in certain situations (particularly when reflex saved are called for) De Gea is still better than Henderson at shot stopping, which explains why so many people subjectively percieve that to be the case when watching us play. But when we broaden our idea of shot stopping out beyond reflex saves then Henderson gains the upper hand, which gets reflected in the stats.
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Too soon to tell. Not totally convinced about either at the moment. De Gea clearly has it in him if he can regain his best form and wants to stay. Henderson has yet to show that ability and would need to take a significant step up to be a long-term United keeper.
I feel like it's more the other way around, i.e. a lot of people desperately quick to hype Henderson even though there is very little evidence of him having what it takes to be a great United goalkeeper.
I can only assume that factors like his nationality and him coming from the academy play a huge part.
Yup, United fans are desperate for academy players to become part of first squad. If player is from academy, he is new Rio, Rooney, Evra......
Just to refresh memory to people who deny this.
Williams. After few games there was a thread how he is a better than Shaw.
Tuanzebe was a long term first choice defender despite not playing single game for us.
Gomes. "Best young player in a while."
Garner. New Scholes.
Wilson. New Ruud.
Pereira. At one time first few pages of match thread were "Where is Pereira. feck you Mourinho"
McNair. What to say about him? Some thought that he can be first choice rb ffs.
Chong. I admit i was in his train too.
McT. New captain.
Sure, DDG is better at the moment but do people think it's big difference? Their wages is definitely big difference but their current ability as a keeper is not so far apart for the team. DDG is no longer as great as he used to be and his current performance/ability doesn't reflect to the amount of money we pay for him weekly.
The risk to trust Dean is massive since he's still unproven unlike DDG but given DDG's current salary, I'm not going to lie it's too much and I'm the guy who wants the club to fix the wages structure. We could use his wages for two very good regular players (200k p/w & 175k p/w).
The risk to trust Dean is massive since he's still unproven unlike DDG but given DDG's current salary, I'm not going to lie it's too much and I'm the guy who wants the club to fix the wages structure. We could use his wages for two very good regular players (200k p/w & 175k p/w).
Want to check how the players like Darmian, Rojo, Depay, Schneiderlin, Bailly, Lindelof, Diallo, Pellistri, Fred, Dalot, Mkhitaryan were rated when we just signed them?
The wage argument I just don't get. Do you honestly think this board will reinvest to money we save by selling De Gea well? This club does everything on the cheap.
It matters a lot. When you have players are not performing world class anymore getting 375k p/w means it disturbs the wages structure and the club itself because other players/agents who are not even world class will look at it and have reasons to ask the same silly amount or ridiculous amount. We can't have this! This only allows players/agents to take advantage for example Martial. We don't need players who are here for money. We need more Bruno type, player who wants to come here to play, come here for new challenge to play in big club, basically someone with ambition not because wages.
how do we pay such high fees and high wages when we always do everything on the cheap. That doesn’t make any sense.
I don't think nationality or coming from the academy has anything to do with it.
It's more likely that people are hopeful that a prospect we have on our books, who had a great season on loan, could be the answer to our DDG problem that we've had for 2-3 years
World class. I know. We overrate every player. No doubt about it. But at least they were overrated based on something. With academy players it is another level. And i am starting with me here. I was in hype train of some of them.
Chong was the one and Laird and Mejbri are two now.
Well that's true for your every club. Young players will always be hyped and it will be at every club too. They will always be future xyz player.
Agree. But you must draw a line somewhere. You don't need to watch player whole season to realise how good he is or how big his potential is. With Greenwood we all saw it after few games. With Rooney. With Giggs and Becks.
Henderson with 24y and after 3 senior seasons will not raise his game by two levels. Same as McT or James will never become techically gifted players, Hendo will not upgrade his reflexes on another level. Some stuff you can learn, some you can't
Henderson doesn't have to raise his game by 2 levels, his overall keeping is better than this De Gea. De Gea at his best was easily better, but this version of De Gea isn't better.
Also I don't agree with your points that players won't improve after x number of season. Also in most cases, they don't have to improve their technical level, it's all tactical adjustments and also the coach they work with. Even just going with McTominay as example, he is much better player than he was in 2019 and he was 23 in 2019.
Saying that, I don't expect James to be some awesome player, he is too poor to rely on him to improve very much.
Also disagree with "You don't need to watch player whole season to realize how good he is or how big his potential is". Even the best of scouts who are paid shit loads of money assess player after watching them for years/many games. Forget young players, people were laughing their asses off when we were linked with Mane (not just on caf btw) and we all know how that one ended.
Henderson has made plenty of great saves, I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s some steady goalkeeper that only makes easy saves. If anything, he’s closer to being a De Gea type of goalkeeper than a Van Der Sar.
Disagree with some mentions in here I feel De Gea is not even close to being among the best keepers in the league. De Gea is paid as if he's the best in world football but he's a considerable level below this standard. He's cost the team goals / points on countless occasion within the last 36 months. Perhaps the most dramatic decline of a top player within such few years despite being young in his position. The club should and likely will move him on sooner rather than later.
Inclined to agree with this but the problem is everyone can see what we see and that being the case it is tough to imagine us being able to move him on. The combination of a COVID impacted transfer window, his massive wages and clearly declining form make him next to impossible to sell. I tend to think the most likely outcome is we punt on the decision for 12 months and maybe loan Dean out to a big club and hope that DDG has a comeback season for us in order to generate a market for his service in 2022.
But the reports coming out are he wants to be the No1 and doesn't want a delay on the decision it's a now or never time for him. If he's not given assurances he's the No1 he'll seek to leave permanently
Don't you think it's likely we send De Gea out on loan instead paying part of his wages for a season or so till someone is ready to buy him permanently? If Ole keeps his faith with Deano till the end of the season I simply don't see a scenario where he does a 180 and puts DDG back in next season