NonceUponATimeInEpsteinAndAndyLand
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I just want Pogue to admit he finds very serious sexual assault allegations credible here and to back off that paragraph that made it sound like 'well what you can you do? Men, eh?' cause I don't think he realised how awful that sounded.
I personally find it unbelievable that a high profile prisoner like him was not being monitored frequently enough to stop a suicide attempt. It’s scandalous the fact it was able to happen under the assumption it was suicide. I just don’t see how a conspiracy like that would be able to be kept under wraps without the truth coming out imminently.
oh ok my bad.
But surely the rich and powerful angle inherently does make it a lot more shocking? We're not just talking about an individual manipulating younger, vulnerable people on a singular basis, we're talking about potential concerted efforts between groups of rich and powerful people, ranging from former Presidents to royalty etc. Generally speaking someone who's sleeping with someone under the age of consent (even before we consider the sheer extent to which the power imbalance would be extended further here) is going to be branded with all the terms you've used in your first paragraph.
Yeah, a lot of the language is sensationalist and over-the-top, but the fundamental allegations (that Epstein was at the centre of a group of rich and powerful people who exploited underage individuals) really doesn't seem to be all that far off the mark on the basis of a lot of the information that's been revealed so far.
I did a proper dirty giggle at the edit when I saw it I must admit
The internet never disappoints me with how quickly it moves.
The internet never disappoints me with how quickly it moves.
It's almost too obvious?
I mean...Epstein apparently already attempted suicide a few weeks ago. Who the feck decided to quit the suicide watch?
See, I don't find it unbelievable that someone who was previously on suicide watch could commit suicide. Obviously they were deemed to be inclined to do so given that they were on suicide watch in the first place and ultimately it's quite hard to intently monitor people 24/7, which is why suicides in custody happen and the concept of suicide watch in jail exists.
The reason I'd be more willing to be open to the idea of foul play in this instance (despite my centrist, anti-conspiracy instincts all screaming at me) is that it largely fits my biased concept of what a "real" conspiracy should look like. There's a relatively clear motive with at least some grounding in fact, it was a relatively manageable thing to accomplish, it required relatively few people to be involved, there's relatively little contradictory logic and, crucially, it's relatively messy. By which I mean it isn't so pristine a conspiracy that nobody ever finds out (bar a few internet warriors, obviously) and all evidence is eliminated before any official investigation can take place. He was already being investigated, links to other people were already being reported on and the idea that it could have been foul play has been immediately and widely noted, with calls for investigations following.
Look at it from the ‘accused’ point of view: there is zero wiggle room for them, the only guaranteed way to make this problem go away is for the witness to be nullified.
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Dude...really?
I personally believe that if you are sentenced to life imprisonment with no possibility of parole, you should be allowed to chomp down on a cyanide tablet if you so choose, because feck alladat
That's not how it works. We have to blame something unrelated they love and we have no connection with.
I blame private planes.
Really not that hard. You have to watch them 24/7, as you say. That is easily done in individual cases, however poor your prisons are used to treating people. Only way you lose anyone that you genuinely wished to live is intentionally or gross negligence and I don't buy that with a case this high profile that it is more likely that they just made a mistake. I think someone made a decision.
What? That's all perfectly rational. If it was impossibly hard for people to commit suicide in jail then they wouldn't need to have suicide watch. The very fact that it exists tells you that people are indeed be able to commit suicide in that situation.
As for his state of mind, he had just been on said suicide watch. Which suggests that the idea of him perhaps wanting to commit suicide isn't entirely implausible.
That post was me absolutely straining to be open towards the idea that he might have been killed so if that doesn't pass muster then I'm struggling.
Indeed, it's not hard to imagine why someone in Epstein's position would commit suicide but the people supposed to be watching him 24/7 not stopping it if it was genuine? Nah.
I know we're going into tinfoil hat territory but what if the original suicide watch/attempt wasn't that and it just set this up?What? That's all perfectly rational. If it was impossibly hard for people to commit suicide in jail then they wouldn't need to have suicide watch. The very fact that it exists tells you that people are indeed be able to commit suicide in that situation.
As for his state of mind, he had just been on said suicide watch. Which suggests that the idea of him perhaps wanting to commit suicide isn't entirely implausible.
That post was me absolutely straining to be open towards the idea that he might have been killed so if that doesn't pass muster then I'm struggling.
What do you think of the decision to put Epstein off of suicide watch despite his earlier attempt?What? That's all perfectly rational. If it was impossibly hard for people to commit suicide in jail then they wouldn't need to have suicide watch. The very fact that it exists tells you that people are indeed be able to commit suicide in that situation.
As for his state of mind, he had just been on said suicide watch. Which suggests that the idea of him perhaps wanting to commit suicide isn't entirely implausible.
That post was me absolutely straining to be open towards the idea that he might have been killed so if that doesn't pass muster then I'm struggling.
He was one of the most high profile inmates inside entire US prison system. I’d have expected him to be under VIP and suicide status with all the surveillance and due dillegence that goes with that.
I think you need to wipe clean your slate for a minute and think about things from a model of street gangs and drug cartels.
A lot of murders go unsolved in the ghetto despite the fact that the local community knows who did it and why. The streets know. There are no arrests because while the community knows, they won't talk to authorities out of fear because they know they or their family can be killed (see the Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in America for just one reference among a ton of criminal justice research). This is why there is so many unsolved murders - people are fecking afraid to talk.
So now take that very real, very established, very proven mentality and think about it if you were actually someone that knew something about Epstein or rich powerful people involved in banging girls that are victims of sex trafficking.
Would you really have the courage to risk your life and your friends and family livelihoods exposing these people? I love to sit back with a glass of Scotch and a joint and imagine myself some Pynchonesque post-modern hero that would bravely expose the elite's network of sex trafficking but the harsh reality is that I might be a fecking coward that simply pretends I saw nothing and tries my best to hide my family and friends from any retaliation from these very rich, very powerful, very immoral people.
Aye it is easily done in individual cases, presumably by placing them on suicide watch. Once you accept that suicide watch has that specific purpose though then you logically have to accept that those who aren't on suicide watch aren't monitored to that neccesary degree. If they were then there wouldn't be suicide watch, it would just be a given that people can't commit suicide in jail.
In this case he had been taken off suicide watch. So while I might be open to the idea that this was a deliberate and purposeful move, it doesn't make sense for me for someone to argue that he still shouldn't have been able to attempt suicide in that circumstance.
Money and influence can fix a little bit of 'missing time' in that surveillance if I've watched enough films, tv shows and read enough books to know what American prisons are like.
That's kinda the problem I'm having with this. It's exactly what happens in films, tv shows and books. It's so brazenly blatant.
Well given the evidence I'd have to say it was, at best, premature.
As I said above, I have much less issue with the idea that he might have been deliberately taken off suicide watch than the idea that even while off suicide watch he should still have been unable to commit suicide. The latter is one of those self-contradicting arguments I don't like.
He was taken off suicide watch. One of the most high profile prisoners in history. Days after we were told he attempted suicide.
Again, I don't buy this as just 'negligence'. A number of people had to be involved in that decision and the most senior of them was willing to make a decision that no one wanting him to live would make.
Just like the Khashogi murder.
And will have the same ending: swept under the carpet as an inconvenience for all those implicated.
some poor innocent prison guard will also likely lose his job and perhaps even be prosecuted, just to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.
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Rubio's gambling that Trumpism will go away if Trump loses the next election. It's his only hope and it's not a realistic one.
Ooer, that got a bit Freudian.
CNN had a former prison official on and he said that the housing unit that Epstein was in had guards checking in on the inmates every 30 minutes.
Considering who he was and what he reportedly had on so many insanely high up people 30 minutes is a long fecking time isn't it?
Similarly if he's on suicide watch for genuine suicide attempts then 30 minutes is an eternity for a man wanting to end his own life, trust me I know that much.
Don't know how this is currently being covered in America but the BBC website is currently going with "Jeffrey Epstein: Questions raised over disgraced financer's death" and justifying that with De Blasio's quote calling it "way too convenient".
They also mention "He was often seen socialising with the rich and powerful, including President Donald Trump, former President Bill Clinton and the UK's Prince Andrew."
That's not how the BBC generally covers conspiracy theories.
They also mention "He was often seen socialising with the rich and powerful, including President Donald Trump, former President Bill Clinton and the UK's Prince Andrew."
That's not how the BBC generally covers conspiracy theories.
commit suicide
Sorry randomly picked out a few posts (apart from Rubio!) but words really matter around the subject of suicide. You commit murder, homicide, manslaughter, fraud etc not suicide, suicide is not a crime. This case aside, it is normally linked to mental illness and language around mental health is very important.
You couldn't have chosen a worse thread to make this point in but you are right.
How convenient
When you mention conspiracy most people think faked moon landing, Area 51, 9/11; the wild tin foil stuff. Yet the powers that be have been proven to conspire continuously: Tuskegee, Niger uranium forgeries, Frogie and the FA, Watergate.
Maybe whoever organized this is based in USA. High up. I think they need to speak to the maintenance team and who organized it etc.
Anybody read that Vanity Vair article on Epstein from 2003 where they described his house in Manhattan? It's quite a long read but in hindsight there's just so many creepy stuff going on...
"This is no mere rich person’s home, but a high-walled, eclectic, imperious fantasy that seems to have no boundaries.The entrance hall is decorated not with paintings but with row upon row of individually framed eyeballs; these, the owner tells people with relish, were imported from England, where they were made for injured soldiers."
"Amid such splendor, there is one particularly startling oddity: a stuffed black poodle, standing atop the grand piano. “No decorator would ever tell you to do that,” Epstein brags to visitors. “But I want people to think what it means to stuff a dog.”"
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/03/jeffrey-epstein-200303
Couldn't make that shite up if you wanted to, or well, it would probably be considered way too much.
"This is no mere rich person’s home, but a high-walled, eclectic, imperious fantasy that seems to have no boundaries.The entrance hall is decorated not with paintings but with row upon row of individually framed eyeballs; these, the owner tells people with relish, were imported from England, where they were made for injured soldiers."
"Amid such splendor, there is one particularly startling oddity: a stuffed black poodle, standing atop the grand piano. “No decorator would ever tell you to do that,” Epstein brags to visitors. “But I want people to think what it means to stuff a dog.”"
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/03/jeffrey-epstein-200303
Couldn't make that shite up if you wanted to, or well, it would probably be considered way too much.
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Was it confirmed as a suicide attempt or an assault?