Nordic Ghost Yeti (Scandi Carroll) | Haaland at City

kouroux

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He let Haaland shoot because there was more space, and timed his challenge perfectly to throw him off balance right as he was taking the shot

VVD is an historically great 1vs1 defender, maybe only Ronaldo pre-injury and Messi could be expected to get the better of him in those scenarios
I don't agree
 

Mike Smalling

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Easily much better defending in the Holland clip
Clearly. It's a slightly more difficult situation for Mbappe than it was for Haaland, but also much better defended.

I also don't understand why VVD was praised so much in that situation. It seems it's more down to the eventual outcome than the actual defending. You wouldn't put it past Haaland to finish much better in that situation, even slightly off balance.
 

kouroux

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Clearly. It's a slightly more difficult situation for Mbappe than it was for Haaland, but also much better defended.

I also don't understand why VVD was praised so much in that situation. It seems it's more down to the eventual outcome than the actual defending. You wouldn't put it past Haaland to finish much better in that situation, even slightly off balance.
I also think that Haaland losing his balance there wasn't the result of anything VVD did. He basically invited him to take a shot
 

Mike Smalling

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I also think that Haaland losing his balance there wasn't the result of anything VVD did. He basically invited him to take a shot
Yes, he barely touches him. Haaland is already leaning that way and going down, when VVD gets an arm on him.

Also, Haaland isn't actually a strong dribbler. That's not his game.
 

troylocker

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Not ”teams” but City specifically. Just like Zlatan made prime Barca worse but would have been great for almost any other team. And Zlatan had much better link up play than Haaland.

Having such a one dimensional player on top just happens to be an exceptionally bad fit for the free flowing machine City used to be. They used to unravel teams with ease and score 5 for fun with 5 different goalscorers.

Now they struggle to beat relegation threatened teams 1-0 and they've actually been lucky to have as many points as they do according to the xPoints table.
Well this is just wrong. Between the top 3 teams the xPts vs. points table looks like this:

Arsenal xPts : 60 - actual points 64
City xPts: 60 - actual points 63
Liverpool xPts: 55 actual points 64

Since this metric was introduced (2014/15 season) every PL winner has overperformed their xPts. City has underperformed it a couple of times in seasons they haven't won the league though, but usually overperforms a bit.
Lets take us this season as a reference:

Man United xPts: 36 - actual points 47
Then you can talk about being lucky to have as many points as we have.

Then you can say that all of City's losses have come in matches where they missed Rodri who is absolutely essential for them in controlling games and breaking down oppo transitions. Their most creative player (KDB) has missed 20 games.
I can't say that I've seen them struggle to beat relegation teams though, well unless it's that one match against Bournemouth you're referring to.
I would say having such one dimensional attacking style is more hindering than anything else. If City didn't insist on letting teams thoroughly park the bus every time they attacked they would probably create a lot more chances. Haaland is better with space in front of him than in a crowded box and the only way he's been hindering City this season is by not finishing his chances as efficiently as he's used to the last 4 seasons. That has admittedly cost City some points this season (Especially against Chelsea).
 
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giorno

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Clearly. It's a slightly more difficult situation for Mbappe than it was for Haaland, but also much better defended.

I also don't understand why VVD was praised so much in that situation. It seems it's more down to the eventual outcome than the actual defending. You wouldn't put it past Haaland to finish much better in that situation, even slightly off balance.
He's 1vs1 with half the pitch to defend. If he fouls, it's a red card. If he lets him get into the box he risks giving away a penalty. The best outcome you can realistically expect to get is to force the striker into a mistake - like, say, taking a hurried shot from the edge of the box, while off balance...

Should Haaland have done better? Maybe, but he's no dribbler. Against most other defenders it probably doesn't matter. VVD just happens to be the one guy Haaland knows he can't beat through pace or strenght. So he rushed into a shot before VVD can challenge him. The latter times his challenge to throw him off balance and it works. - more accurately, he times the challenge to force the shot at that moment, from that position, and off balance. Regardless of whether Van Dijk bumped Haaland off balance through contact or simply by rushing him to avoid the challenge
 
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Mike Smalling

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He's 1vs1 with half the pitch to defend. If he fouls, it's a red card. If he lets him get into the box he risks giving away a penalty. The best outcome you can realistically expect to get is to force the striker into a mistake - like, say, taking a hurried shot from the edge of the box, while off balance...
Yes, the best outcome definitely was allowing one of the best finishers in the world a shot with his strongest foot.
 

giorno

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Yes, the best outcome definitely was allowing one of the best finishers in the world a shot with his strongest foot.
Off balance from 20 yards out. Yes, that was indeed the best realistic outcome. Which was proved by the fact the shot was tame and straight at the gk
 

heraklion

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City, who haven’t yet gone out of a major competition in the 19 months since he joined.
City, who had to bail out his sorry ass in tons of games in the last 19 months since he joined, last example being the Liverpool game which he finished with 10 touches as usual & worst ratings.
 

troylocker

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1)
And, so?
Yet, Haaland never touched a top-5 league title or a double or a treble before City.
Yet, Haaland was never a top contender for Ballon D'or, UEFA Best, FIFA Best, Golden Shoe before City
Yet, Haaland couldn't even lead a top-5 league in goalscoring before City

Yet, Haaland has 0 g&a in 7 semis & finals "even with City"


2)
Yes, I am sure.
talks about top awards, then mentions "player of the year, Austria", imagine hyping up Ballon D'or "no.10-11" as "top contender" :lol:
Any Golden Shoe contender?
Any FIFA Best top-contender, Any UEFA Player of the Year top-contender like top-2, like top-3, like top-5, should I go on?


3)
Aren't you the guy declaring him better than R9, Van Basten, Messi, CR7 etc?
Aren't you the guy saying "but but City never won the treble before Haaland"?

Why are you so accepting of lower standards for Haaland "before City"? At the end of the day, "in your own words", he brought the treble for City, and he's better than almost all other top goalscorers :lol:

Dortmund was on the verge of winning Bundesliga right after Haaland left, they're in the UCL QFs this year.
Surely Haaland could at least win a Bundesliga title with them with "his superpowers"? At the end of the day, he was the "treble-maker" for City..


4)
Your football knowledge is more like sub-zero.
Hahaha!

1) He needs to step it up in the final stages of tournaments for City. Agreed.

2) How many players can you name who's played for a non Bayern team in Germany who's been voted top 10 in the Ballon d'ors through history? Since their CL win in 97 there's been 1 for Dortmund: Haaland
He did win the Golden shoe in: Nations League, Champions League and U20 WC before he joined City. He was fastest to score 50 goals in the bundesliga history. He was in FIFA world 11 both in 2021 and 2022, Player of the year in Germany 2021 and of course the Golden Boy award 2020 as I mentioned among many other honors, but you chose to focus on the "embarressing" "Player of the year Austria" he won based on half a season there as a 19 year old.

3) I have been posting statistics showing that he is scoring goals and contributing goals at a higher ratio than all other forwards in Europe for his age post WW2, yes. That's just facts. He's been doing it for Norway and for all his clubs since going to Salzburg.
The "City never won the treble before Haaland" is just to show how ridiculous the claim City are worse with him is.
Football is a team sport. You need a squad to win titles. Dortmund was not good enough to win the league or run really deep in the CL. City is and that's because they have WC players in all the key positions. Rodri, KDB and Haaland as the main guys, but with 12-15 other players in the squad to chip in when needed. City would not collapse if you removed one of them, but you could see how important Rodri was for them during his suspension. Worst case would be that it took some games to adapt to playing without a key player. In 2023 no player can carry a team on his own, and a striker will not be visible in tough games where the team doesn't create chances. I've never compared his dribbling, close control, playmaking etc. to any of the greats, because he has obvious flaws there. He doesn't have many flaws when it comes to movement, anticipation, physique, goalscoring instinct, positional awareness, reactions and explosiveness for instance. In those appartments he's second to none. I guess you'll need "sub zero" football knowledge to see and appreciate those treats....

4) Thanks! I allways hoped that I learned a thing or two from playing football for 40 years (striker on senior level for 25 seasons) and watching football all my life, so hopefully I'm closing in on zero knowledge soon ;)
I'll leave the country of origin unknown....

Good luck on the hate, man!
 
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TheArse

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He's a freak.

No denying it.

However I feel without Kvb he's lacking and the prem teams have figured it out. He has weaknesses like every other world class player, and it's amplified by the league he is in.

No slight against him. Obviously the best stiker in the world but I would be lying if I didn't expect more. City fans should be extremely happy he is there but there is something left to be desired when you're not demolishing the league with such a player.

City can be beat, and he was the Cherry player.

Great time for the prem though. Best managers, unbelievable players, huge rivalry.
 

troylocker

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City, who had to bail out his sorry ass in tons of games in the last 19 months since he joined, last example being the Liverpool game which he finished with 10 touches as usual & worst ratings.
I just have to bite again....pfff.
Where do you have your stats and ratings from? You're not just making them up are you?

Here's the data from whoscored.com:

Haaland against Liverpool:
1 shot (discussed thoroughly above) 1 on target
3 key passes (passes that directly lead to a shot)
22 touches
15 passes (80% accuracy)
1 successful dribble
1 successful tackle
1 clearance

Ratings both teams:

Ederson: 5,6
Ake: 7,1
Akanji: 6,7
Walker: 7,2
Rodri: 6,7
Stones: 7,6
Foden: 6,5
KDB: 7,2
Silva: 6,6
Alvarez: 6,0
Haaland: 6,9

Subs:
Doku: 6,6
Kovacic: 6,3
Ortega: 7,3

Kelleher: 7,2
Bradley: 6,8
VVD: 7,6
Quansah: 6,6
Gomez: 6,5
MacA: 7,4
Szobo: 6,3
Endo: 7,0
Elliot: 6,5
Nunez: 6,8
Diaz: 7,2

Subs:
Salah: 6,3
Gakpo: 5,9
Robbo: 6,7

Now, get angry with the matrix.....:houllier:

He didn't have a great match against Liverpool, but it's no point in painting everything black or white.
City have more than one important player and you can argue Haaland hasn't been City's best player this season. Last season he was. Not in every match, but over the season.
 

Alpha 1

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Hahaha!

1) He needs to step it up in the final stages of tournaments for City. Agreed.

2) How many players can you name who's played for a non Bayern team in Germany who's been voted top 10 in the Ballon d'ors through history? Since their CL win in 97 there's been 1: Haaland
He did win the Golden shoe in: Nations League, Champions League and U20 WC before he joined City. He was fastest to score 50 goals in the bundesliga history. He was in FIFA world 11 both in 2021 and 2022, Player of the year in Germany 2021 and of course the Golden Boy award 2020 as I mentioned among many other honors, but you chose to focus on the "embarressing" "Player of the year Austria" he won based on half a season there as a 19 year old.

3) I have been posting statistics showing that he is scoring goals and contributing goals at a higher ratio than all other forwards in Europe for his age post WW2, yes. That's just facts. He's been doing it for Norway and for all his clubs since going to Salzburg.
The "City never won the treble before Haaland" is just to show how ridiculous the claim City are worse with him is.
Football is a team sport. You need a squad to win titles. Dortmund was not good enough to win the league or run really deep in the CL. City is and that's because they have WC players in all the key positions. Rodri, KDB and Haaland as the main guys, but with 12-15 other players in the squad to chip in when needed. City would not collapse if you removed one of them, but you could see how important Rodri was for them during his suspension. Worst case would be that it took some games to adapt to playing without a key player. In 2023 no player can carry a team on his own, and a striker will not be visible in tough games where the team doesn't create chances. I've never compared his dribbling, close control, playmaking etc. to any of the greats, because he has obvious flaws there. He doesn't have many flaws when it comes to movement, anticipation, physique, goalscoring instinct, positional awareness, reactions and explosiveness for instance. In those appartments he's second to none. I guess you'll need "sub zero" football knowledge to see and appreciate those treats....

4) Thanks! I allways hoped that I learned a thing or two from playing football for 40 years (striker on senior level for 25 seasons) and watching football all my life, so hopefully I'm closing in on zero knowledge soon ;)
I'll leave the country of origin unknown....

Good luck on the hate, man!
Country of origin = Norway
 

heraklion

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Haaland hasn't been City's best player this season. Last season he was.
sure, he was, probably in your village in Norway.. the only place on Planet Earth where he is also better than Messi, Van Basten, R9, Gerd Muller, Pele etc. in goal-scoring:lol:
 

Saffron

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Obviously the best stiker in the world but I would be lying if I didn't expect more.

Sorry? Mbappe is clear and it's not close.

Then there's Haaland and a few other tier 2 strikers (considering their current age and abilities).
 

KeanoMagicHat

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City, who had to bail out his sorry ass in tons of games in the last 19 months since he joined, last example being the Liverpool game which he finished with 10 touches as usual & worst ratings.
"Bailing him out" haha, he's a net positive to their team and has been since he joined.

Guardiola is notorious for not trusting or particularly liking strikers compared to all-round players. Why then does he play Haaland in every single game he's available? Why does he completely trust him if he has to bail him out all the time like you said. Guardiola has no time for passengers. He simply wouldn't play Haaland if he was as detrimental as you said.
 

heraklion

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"Bailing him out" haha
Haaland in semi finals & finals for City, mind you "this is supposedly the greatest striker on earth today" "by some in this thread"

• 7 games
• 0 goals
• 0 assists
• 7 big chances missed

Such an amazing & consistent performance from the "greatest striker on earth today", no way City would win treble without those unique ghosting skills..

This season, he's already on the verge of breaking PL records of most big chances misses, the previous record also belongs to him. The guy is not even finishing that well this season, his one & only world-class attribute.. The bad news for City is we're getting close to that "peak ghosting" period, the season end where his teammates have to bail him out again working overtime doing his job so that he can be a top Ballon D'or contender..
 
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chomsky89

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The guy is not even finishing that well this season, his one & only world-class attribute..
His movement/positioning is a world-class attribute and the main reason why he gets so many chances wherever he plays. And the reason why he could go 60 Champions League games without scoring and still have a better CL-goal-to-game ratio than R9. Not saying Haaland is better, but saying Haaland only has finishing to bring to the table vs other great nr9s is laughable.
 
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Alpha 1

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I'm wondering what is so complicated here. Haaland is a great goalscorer possibly one of the greatest pure goalscorers to have played the game. That's it. His game is otherwise average and sometimes even poor. He doesn't pretend to be anything else.

Does he improve or worsen City? I'd say he doesn't worsen them, but he doesn't improve them either. He actually doesn't really even fit into their style of play as he lacks the technical gifts associated with Guardiola's players. City posted very similar stats with and without Haaland.
 

heraklion

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he could go 60 Champions League games without scoring and still have a better CL-goal-to-game ratio than R9.
He could go 500 games more than R9 scoring 500 more tap-ins, still would not be half the player R9 was.. a poor man's Gerd Muller..
 

chomsky89

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500 more tap-ins, still would not be half the player R9 was..
Do you think every player has the same ability to maximize the tap-in opportunities?
Do you think a tap-in goal counts as less than 1,0 goals?
Do you think movement/positioning does not add anything to a striker's value?
Do you think any sober manager in a top 5 league would say no to 30 tap-in goals guaranteed from a player/season in all comps?

When Haaland had 5 goal involvements vs United, Pep was not worried that city would be given 2,4 points because Haaland's goals came from first-touch finishes at 10 meters and closer.
This is football, not Ski jumping.
 

chomsky89

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Kane over Haaland too.
For me it's about the same, Kane does not have Haaland's movement and will get fewer chances in the same teams, but he is a better finisher, especially when thinking headers.
30 goals for Tottenham sure were impressive, but considering Haaland played 6 hours less last season and scored 6 more It's hard to tell who did better goal-wise under the circumstances.

I seriously doubt Kane could have anywhere near a goal every 85 minutes for Norway, but how much does that matter when he will always have better teammates? Does that alone tell much? I Don't know.
 

Remember the geese

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For me it's about the same, Kane does not have Haaland's movement and will get fewer chances in the same teams, but he is a better finisher, especially when thinking headers.
30 goals for Tottenham sure were impressive, but considering Haaland played 6 hours less last season and scored 6 more It's hard to tell who did better goal-wise under the circumstances.

I seriously doubt Kane could have anywhere near a goal every 85 minutes for Norway, but how much does that matter when he will always have better teammates? Does that alone tell much? I Don't know.
It's not just goals. Kane is just a far better footballer. The majority of the best strikers over the last 20-30 years have been far better footballers than Haaland.
 

chomsky89

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It's not just goals. Kane is just a far better footballer. The majority of the best strikers over the last 20-30 years have been far better footballers than Haaland.
Sure, but it's not necessarily that easy to estimate the value of 3-4 very different elite strikers, especially when the "least good footballer overall" is the one that has the best goal-to-game ratio in the 70-year history of the Champions League/European Cup. Goals are how you get those 3 points.

If Pep was given the option of a Haaland-bot preprogrammed to be slightly worse at ball control, passing, and dribbling, but score 2 in every game he would of course accept it. Because goals are so important.
 
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devaneios

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Goals is how you get those 3 points.
True, but goals aren't resumed to the final touch. Maybe someone like Firmino has contributed to as much goals proportionally , although his individual stats don't show that. There were many situations where he created the outlet to goals with his first touch, ball retention skills and smart link up movements. If you watched Liverpool goals compilations of 17-20, you could verify that. The same thing with Benzema in CR7 era; he was extremely important in gelling Real Madrid offensive creation; you can find his vital influence in tons of Real Madrid goals between 11-18, although his goal record wasn't particularly special compared to other 9s in big clubs.

I can't see any reason to held someone like Haaland higher than this other kind of player and I believe that's the reason why some people are calling him overrated here. What he's good at is overhyped, probably because it's easier to evaluate. He's basically a counterpart to Firmino: one is very good at gelling plays and opening spaces with his technique, but a poor finisher; the other is very good at putting himself in goalscoring positions and opening space with his movement, but terrible at everything else.

Also, Muller comparison is poor. The German maybe looks "simple" compared to the likes of Pelé, Cruyff, Van Basten, Romário, etc, but he was way better than Haaland on the ball, not even close. You can find all touches of him on youtube where he looks like a 10(or even as a DM in others). He had a very good touch and link up skills; his shooting skills from outside of the box were much better too. Haaland is basically a version of Inzaghi on steroids in a much more offensive era of the game(Italy in late 90s/early 00s wasn't a paradise for strikers).
 
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Saffron

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The obscene glorification of tap-ins as the be-all end-all measure of a striker only came along so that CR7 fanboys could claim he was somehow comparable to Messi. Because that was the only area where he was. The CR7 crowd badly needed to clutch that straw to proffer that the pure goal stats somehow made CR7 at least as good as Messi – even though Messi smokes him in every other area.

Now that the curse is slowly starting to lift we may return to a sane football discourse once again. A football discourse where a Hugo Sanchez is not considered better than Maradona just because he scored more goals. A football discourse where a Haaland is not a Ballon d'Or player just because he has Müller like stats.

You don't need to re-use the same tired talking points the CR7 fanboys introduced. I promise. The spell has been broken. He's gone.
 
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Lexicon Red Devil

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His movement/positioning is a world-class attribute and the main reason why he gets so many chances wherever he plays. And the reason why he could go 60 Champions League games without scoring and still have a better CL-goal-to-game ratio than R9. Not saying Haaland is better, but saying Haaland only has finishing to bring to the table vs other great nr9s is laughable.
Ronaldo would have ridiculous stats in the CL today. It just gets easier every year for players in top teams to stat pad in the group stage as the difference between leagues gets wider. Anyone with eyes could see the likes of Batistuta, Ruud, Del Piero, Henry, Eto'o, Shevchenko, Baggio and Romario were every bit as good as(probably better than) the likes of Haaland, Lewa and Benzema, but their CL stats make them look like journeymen in comparison.

I guarantee that Haaland wouldn't have been able to replicate Ronaldo's performances in Serie A in the 90s with his lack of technique and with space at a premium. The Ronaldo comparison doesn't do him any favours at all and people should actually try watching the players rather than basing their opinions on pure numbers.
 

giorno

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He was losing balance, Haaland wasn't that comfortable running with the ball IMHO.
Think it came down to the fact the defender was Van Dijk personally. Anyone else and he goes right at them instead of trying to go away from them
 

goatmeister

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Yes, the best outcome definitely was allowing one of the best finishers in the world a shot with his strongest foot.
I suspect you never actually played football.
I played mostly as CB/FB and occasionally CF because of my shooting power (not technique/accuracy).
If I was marking Haaland in that position, the most meaningful way I could have defended is forcing him to shoot off balance.
I don't have to actually body/shoulder him, just make him feel "now or he will have chance to block", e.g. by extending my arm.
Virgil is over 190cm and rapid, it's very easy for him to exert this kind of pressure.

Conversely if I'm the one shooting, I'd rather assume stable stance eventhough I have to shoot from further distance.
As long as I get the technique right, my shooting power will take care of it.
If I can't score, the goalie will have to parry and there might be 2nd ball to contest.
 
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Mike Smalling

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I suspect you never actually played football.
I played mostly as CB/FB and occasionally CF because of my shooting power (not technique/accuracy).
If I was marking Haaland in that position, the most meaningful way I could have defended is forcing him to shoot off balance.
I don't have to actually body/shoulder him, just make him feel "now or he will have chance to block", e.g. by extending my arm.
Virgil is over 190cm and rapid, it's very easy for him to exert this kind of pressure.

Conversely if I'm the one shooting, I'd rather assume stable stance eventhough I have to shoot from further distance.
As long as I get the technique right, my shooting power will take care of it.
If I can't score, the goalie will have to parry and there might be 2nd ball to contest.
Incredibly enlightening.
 

Saffron

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Yet another masterclass by The Best Striker In The World™.

Comfortably the worst City player on the pitch according to Opta. He got a 6.5, closest to him was 7.0.