Nordic Ghost Yeti | Haaland at City

[Andrade]

I don’t think that’s true, you can enjoy watching Haaland at his craft and equally enjoy a Hazard or a Ronaldinho. Some people are determined to undermine Haaland at every opportunity also and diminish goals. There’s more to football than goals but also goals matter.

If Messi wasn’t a goalscorer then you could make the argument about Muller to prove your contrived point but Messi is as good a goalscorer while being better at assisting and dribbling too.

His point I think is that in the past, the person who scored the most goals was not necessarily seen as the best player. E.g. Cruyff and Beckenbauer being considered the best footballers around at that time (and also Best before he fell off) and not Muller. If a person who did score the most goals was seen as the best player, it's because they did a lot of other stuff as well, and there was a high proportion of their goals that were brilliant or beautiful, like Pele or Puskas or DiStefano. Pure poachers were not put on that kind of level.

Now there is a much greater obsession with stats. Football is a spectator sport after all; whilst it is enjoyable to see a player scoring a simple goal, it's much more enjoyable to see players exhibiting great skill that we couldn't do ourselves. That's supposed to be the point of watching the sport, no?. Anyone can tap a ball in from 2 yards out. Obviously most of us (and most players) do not have the energy to keep making the runs that lead to easy goals or the IQ to read the game and continuously get into positions where they can score easy and frequent goals but that doesn't change the fact that it is not as stirring to the spectator as what the great geniuses of the game can do.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

His point I think is that in the past, the person who scored the most goals was not necessarily seen as the best player. E.g. Cruyff and Beckenbauer being considered the best footballers around at that time (and also Best before he fell off) and not Muller. If a person who did score the most goals was seen as the best player, it's because they did a lot of other stuff as well, and there was a high proportion of their goals that were brilliant or beautiful, like Pele or Puskas or DiStefano. Pure poachers were not put on that kind of level.

Now there is a much greater obsession with stats. Football is a spectator sport after all; whilst it is enjoyable to see a player scoring a simple goal, it's much more enjoyable to see players exhibiting great skill that we couldn't do ourselves. That's supposed to be the point of watching the sport, no?. Anyone can tap a ball in from 2 yards out. Obviously most of us (and most players) do not have the energy to keep making the runs that lead to easy goals or the IQ to read the game and continuously get into positions where they can score easy and frequent goals but that doesn't change the fact that it is not as stirring to the spectator as what the great geniuses of the game can do.

I agree on the Beckenbauer/Cruyff bit but also Gerd Muller:

Won the Ballon d’Or, finished 2nd, finished 3rd twice
Voted the best player in Bundesliga history
Twice footballer of the year
8 time World soccer of the year
World Cup and European Championships team of the tournament

So it’s not like he wasn’t considered one of the best of his generation, in fact I’d say he was clearly 3rd and top 15 of all time no matter what way you look at it. And if he hadn’t been competing with Beckenbauer and Cruyff and was 5 years younger, he may have won 3-4 Ballon d’Ors in the late 70s/early 80s.

That’s disrespectful to Muller and Haaland that anyone can do what they do, in fact almost nobody in history can, hence their records.

 

[troylocker]

Just for clarity and context here: there was no Série A for most of Pelé's domestic career. The "top tier" league wasn't formed until 1970. Pelé only played in this league at the age of 30+.

There was national play-offs from 1959, which numbers I put in that bracket, together with C libertadores and Club WC. 89 of those 173 matches on the top tier on domestic level were played before he turned 30 (1959-70). The play-offs were between 5 and 17 games each season before the League were formed.
The point was that he scored most of his goals against cannon fodder in the Paulista and produced more human numbers when he met better teams more regularly. Santos saw double digits in the Paulista every other year and had multible 7+ wins every season. The Paulista cannot be compared to the best leagues in the world today, even though two-three of the best teams in the world at the time played there. It's like having a 16-20 team League with only teams from the London region.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There was national play-offs from 1959, which numbers I put in that bracket, together with C libertadores and Club WC. 89 of those 173 matches on the top tier on domestic level were played before he turned 30 (1959-70). The play-offs were between 5 and 17 games each season before the League were formed.
The point was that he scored most of his goals against cannon fodder in the Paulista and produced more human numbers when he met better teams more regularly. Santos saw double digits in the Paulista every other year and had multible 7+ wins every season. The Paulista cannot be compared to the best leagues in the world today, even though two-three of the best teams in the world at the time played there. It's like having a 16-20 team League with only teams from the London region.

I pointed it out (in that way) because a casual reader might get the impression there was a national ("top tier") league in Brazil (in which Pelé played, in addition to playing in a regional one) before 1970.

 

[Andrade]

I agree on the Beckenbauer/Cruyff bit but also Gerd Muller:

Won the Ballon d’Or, finished 2nd, finished 3rd twice
Voted the best player in Bundesliga history
Twice footballer of the year
8 time World soccer of the year
World Cup and European Championships team of the tournament

So it’s not like he wasn’t considered one of the best of his generation, in fact I’d say he was clearly 3rd and top 15 of all time no matter what way you look at it. And if he hadn’t been competing with Beckenbauer and Cruyff and was 5 years younger, he may have won 3-4 Ballon d’Ors in the late 70s/early 80s.

That’s disrespectful to Muller and Haaland that anyone can do what they do, in fact almost nobody in history can, hence their records.

Please read what I said again. There's nothing disrespectful there.

 

[colombianmancunian]

Majin Buu would havre broken the most goals in a CL match record, if baldy wasn’t protecting the midget’s record. Insufferable!

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Majin Buu would havre broken the most goals in a CL match record, if baldy wasn’t protecting the midget’s record. Insufferable!

Well at least we now know that Pep is team Kid Buu>Super Buu ! This is one he is protecting the midget against Haaland!

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Haaland vs Mbappe feels like Ruud vs Henry. We all knew that Henry was the better player, but would never admit it.

Haaland is outrageous and will score dickloads of goals until his body fecks out. But he’s miles away from the likes of Ronaldo, Messi and Cristiano as footballers.

Mbappe might get to that level. Probably not. But maybe.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Haaland vs Mbappe feels like Ruud vs Henry. We all knew that Henry was the better player, but would never admit it.

Haaland is outrageous and will score dickloads of goals until his body fecks out. But he’s miles away from the likes of Ronaldo, Messi and Cristiano as footballers.

Mbappe might get to that level. Probably not. But maybe.

But RvN wasnt outscoring Henry whereas Haaland does outscore Mbappe while playing in a much stronger league.

 

[Moby]

Haaland vs Mbappe feels like Ruud vs Henry. We all knew that Henry was the better player, but would never admit it.

Haaland is outrageous and will score dickloads of goals until his body fecks out. But he’s miles away from the likes of Ronaldo, Messi and Cristiano as footballers.

Mbappe might get to that level. Probably not. But maybe.

If Haaland scores 100 goals in a season no one will give a shit about who can dribble better or whatever. He is a genetic freak and should look to create history like no one has done before and change the game forever. For the next 50 years whenever someone starts scoring loads of goals people should say "yeah he's good but he's never getting close to Erling Haaland". Erase the notion of a hat trick from the game because once he's done you'd need to score a minimum of 5 in a match to call it an achievement. Become the Usain Bolt of football.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

If Haaland scores 100 goals in a season no one will give a shit about who can dribble better or whatever. He is a genetic freak and should look to create history like no one has done before and change the game forever. For the next 50 years whenever someone starts scoring loads of goals people should say "yeah he's good but he's never getting close to Erling Haaland". Erase the notion of a hat trick from the game because once he's done you'd need to score a minimum of 5 in a match to call it an achievement. Become the Usain Bolt of football.

Yeah, that’s why everyone talks about Gerd Muller as the greatest player of all time. /s

 

[Moby]

Yeah, that’s why everyone talks about Gerd Muller as the greatest player of all time. /s

Because at that time there was another guy who had famously scored 1000 goals in his career and was heralded as the greatest player the game has seen. Haaland needs to take that to a level no one has imagined to be done at the top level and it's game over.

 

[kouroux]

If Haaland scores 100 goals in a season no one will give a shit about who can dribble better or whatever. He is a genetic freak and should look to create history like no one has done before and change the game forever. For the next 50 years whenever someone starts scoring loads of goals people should say "yeah he's good but he's never getting close to Erling Haaland". Erase the notion of a hat trick from the game because once he's done you'd need to score a minimum of 5 in a match to call it an achievement. Become the Usain Bolt of football.

He could score 200 goals in a season that the appreciation or lack thereof for the type of player he is will never change for me. I will never let that affect how highly I'd rate him but I would always go for other players ahead of him if a choice is to be made. As far as I'm concerned, football is more than just numbers, the aesthetics of it are also important, the creativity etc etc... That's why I never truly rated Ronaldo above Messi (even if in particular seasons, he clearly outshone him) overall. One player is just simply more enjoyable to watch than another

 

[Moby]

He could score 200 goals in a season that the appreciation or lack thereof for the type of player he is will never change for me. I will never let that affect how highly I'd rate him but I would always go for other players ahead of him if a choice is to be made. As far as I'm concerned, football is more than just numbers, the aesthetics of it are also important, the creativity etc etc... That's why I never truly rated Ronaldo above Messi (even if in particular seasons, he clearly outshone him) overall. One player is just simply more enjoyable to watch than another

Unfortunately for you the majority doesn't see the game that way. Messi and Ronaldo made scoring 50 goals a season regularly the norm and now that's the bare minimum you need to be called a top player. I think in the next few decades we will really realise what those two have actually done and that is replace artistry with absolute machine like output and utterly fascinating numbers at the highest level. It's already clear the legacy of the likes of Maradona is quickly diminishing because they simply never got anywhere close to getting those many number and that's what is remembered in future. If you talk to people about players from 1920s or whatever you get to see history books with number of goals and mainly top goalscorers (and of course trophies) and remembered. And that is what Haaland needs to aim at. Play for fecking 20 years and not have any limit to how many he can score. Just fecking blow everyone out of the water with sheer dominance as a scorer and set every record in the world.

 

[Moby]

Oh and if he or anyone scores 200 goals in the premier league the whole world will fecking suck their dick till that record gets beaten. It's a joke to say it won't matter.

 

[In Rainbows]

Nobody said it won't matter. But you're lying if you think that is where the debate starts and ends. People don't forget who is the superior all around player. Especially in a day and age where even dribbling stats, chances created, etc.. are easily accessible.

 

[Moby]

Nobody said it won't matter. But you're lying if you think that is where the debate starts and ends. People don't forget who is the superior all around player. Especially in a day and age where even dribbling stats, chances created, etc.. are easily accessible.

Let's be real here. The thing that will keep Messi's name alive 50 years from now is the number of goals he scored and the trophies he won. Which is why winning the WC was such a big deal even though he had established himself as one of the greatest ever long ago. Everything else is anecdotal and wears off with time. Nobody apart from a tiny bunch of nerds is gonna be sat checking Fbref records of what his "expected non penalty goal involvement per 90 mins" or anything was. You care about aesthetic side of the game only when you are watching them day in day out, not when it's someone who you've only heard about from your grandpa.

 

[kouroux]

Unfortunately for you the majority doesn't see the game that way. Messi and Ronaldo made scoring 50 goals a season regularly the norm and now that's the bare minimum you need to be called a top player. I think in the next few decades we will really realise what those two have actually done and that is replace artistry with absolute machine like output and utterly fascinating numbers at the highest level. It's already clear the legacy of the likes of Maradona is quickly diminishing because they simply never got anywhere close to getting those many number and that's what is remembered in future. If you talk to people about players from 1920s or whatever you get to see history books with number of goals and mainly top goalscorers (and of course trophies) and remembered. And that is what Haaland needs to aim at. Play for fecking 20 years and not have any limit to how many he can score. Just fecking blow everyone out of the water with sheer dominance as a scorer and set every record in the world.

There is nothing is unfortunate, I don't care about the perception of others, never have, never will. We all have our own appreciation, just wanted to react to you generalizing in the initial post I quoted. Even if it's a minority, there are still people who don't like watching Haaland ( I make a clear difference between rating and appreciating the player just to be precise). The sort of footballer he is does nothing to me even if I would love to have a similar player in our team.

 

[Moby]

There is nothing is unfortunate, I don't care about the perception of others, never have, never will. We all have our own appreciation, just wanted to react to you generalizing in the initial post I quoted. Even if it's a minority, there are still people who don't like watching Haaland ( I make a clear difference between rating and appreciating the player just to be precise). The sort of footballer he is does nothing to me even if I would love to have a similar player in our team.

Good for you bruh, I was talking about the legacy of the player for the general public. There'll always be hipsters in everything.

 

[Brwned]

Unfortunately for you the majority doesn't see the game that way. Messi and Ronaldo made scoring 50 goals a season regularly the norm and now that's the bare minimum you need to be called a top player. I think in the next few decades we will really realise what those two have actually done and that is replace artistry with absolute machine like output and utterly fascinating numbers at the highest level. It's already clear the legacy of the likes of Maradona is quickly diminishing because they simply never got anywhere close to getting those many number and that's what is remembered in future. If you talk to people about players from 1920s or whatever you get to see history books with number of goals and mainly top goalscorers (and of course trophies) and remembered. And that is what Haaland needs to aim at. Play for fecking 20 years and not have any limit to how many he can score. Just fecking blow everyone out of the water with sheer dominance as a scorer and set every record in the world.

One of the best known players from the 1920s was Giuseppe Meazza. He had a stadium named after him. He finished as top scorer twice in the 30s so was no slouch, but he wasn’t like Gunnar Nordahl who was a real goal machine: the top scorer in 5 of the 6 seasons from 1939-1945. Both playing in the same city.

It’s patently not true that history best remembers the best goal scorers. Maradona just had a stadium named after him this decade. The idea that his star’s waning following the goal exploits of Ronaldo is just a story you’re telling yourself.

Sport has always had people that admire the artistry and others that admire the efficiency. And they’ve always thought that finally the world is coming around to their way of viewing things. In reality it’s just sport obsessives getting even more deeply invested in their own bubbles and reinforcing their own beliefs, rather than any real change in public perceptions.

It’s not something to be right about. It’s just something to waste your time arguing about.

 

[Moby]

One of the best known players from the 1920s was Giuseppe Meazza. He had a stadium named after him. He finished as top scorer twice in the 30s so was no slouch, but he wasn’t like Gunnar Nordahl who was a real goal machine: the top scorer in 5 of the 6 seasons from 1939-1945. Both playing in the same city.

It’s patently not true that history best remembers the best goal scorers. Maradona just had a stadium named after him this decade. The idea that his star’s waning following the goal exploits of Ronaldo is just a story you’re telling yourself.

Sport has always had people that admire the artistry and others that admire the efficiency. And they’ve always thought that finally the world is coming around to their way of viewing things. In reality it’s just sport obsessives getting even more deeply invested in their own bubbles and reinforcing their own beliefs, rather than any real change in public perceptions.

It’s not something to be right about. It’s just something to waste your time arguing about.

Sorry but in no world is stadiums being named on someone equates to their popularity and legacy with the modern day fan. Heck naming stadiums is something that often has massive political elements attached to it and are barely an objective metric of a player's merit. In fact I would go on to say Meazza is remembered more because a stadium is named after him (and literally no one calls it Guiseppe Meazza stadium, it's the fecking San Siro) than actually knowing anything he ever did. He played at a time when the game was barely professional, it's like talking about English cricketers from the late 1800s and I'm sure you will find their names scribbled on stadiums, stands or museums. No one gives a feck.

As far as Maradona and Ronaldo goes you can take another example of Luis Ronaldo. For me he was easily more talented than C Ronaldo but please do a public poll now asking who is the greater one of those two. Maradona's WC exploits will keep him up for now but the more such machines keep turning up who put up such insane volume of output through incredible longevity the easier it will become to ignore the guys from 60s 80s etc who are mainly remembered for "peaks".

 

[Bebestation]

If he wins the CL or title with City then he is already on path to being legend.

If not then his stats don’t really mean much to me.

 

[troylocker]

There is nothing is unfortunate, I don't care about the perception of others, never have, never will. We all have our own appreciation, just wanted to react to you generalizing in the initial post I quoted. Even if it's a minority, there are still people who don't like watching Haaland (I make a clear difference between rating and appreciating the player just to be precise). The sort of footballer he is does nothing to me even if I would love to have a similar player in our team.

Watching strikers bullying defenders and smashing it into the back of the net does nothing for you? Or perfect runs, movement, late karatekick finishes to win CL matches etc.?
He plays for the wrong club obviously, but it's very hard not to be fascinated by what he's doing. I'm 6'3'' and was a striker my entire career myself, have been watching football for 40+ years and I can tell you his movement, physique, spacial awareness, finishing and instinct is the best I have ever seen. City are not playing to his strengths at all and he still breaks every record along the way. It's madness.
He is a freak of nature making the hardest thing in football look too easy.

 

[Fortitude]

Guy scores some goals against Burnley; thread goes insane.

This is off the back of a period where he was falling back into the pack for rate of PL goals.

<insert Opta quip>

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

There's a fine balance in this, I've spent hours arguing that football is more than stats and goalscoring is overrated etc.

But you can't just set your stall up like some people have here and decide that a 22 year old who has done almost everything right so far will never be one of the greats simply because he doesn't dribble enough, or you don't like his style or that he won't be the best in the world for that reason.

Goalscoring isn't everything, but also it matters and you have to judge it in the context like you would any other player. That's where the stats can mask the overall feeling of a player. But everything about Haaland so far suggests he will be decisive when it matters and change games through his play. That's the difference, game changing. Poaching is a fine skill but Choupo-Moting can get on the end of Bayern dominance etc, doesn't make him a great striker.

You can change the course of a game in many ways and Haaland does that way more than some average poacher

1) Strength
2) Shooting
3) Pace
4) Movement

Particularly pace and strength, we've rarely ever seen such a wrecking ball striker before that can actually play as well. It's like Ibrahimovic with a sprinter's pace. It's devastating. To compare to another sport, sometimes it's like watching Jonah Lomu play.

 

[In Rainbows]

Let's be real here. The thing that will keep Messi's name alive 50 years from now is the number of goals he scored and the trophies he won. Which is why winning the WC was such a big deal even though he had established himself as one of the greatest ever long ago. Everything else is anecdotal and wears off with time. Nobody apart from a tiny bunch of nerds is gonna be sat checking Fbref records of what his "expected non penalty goal involvement per 90 mins" or anything was. You care about aesthetic side of the game only when you are watching them day in day out, not when it's someone who you've only heard about from your grandpa.

I don't agree with the last part. People will likely care about the aesthetic side because youtube compilations of past players is something people do first. If anything is consistent, it's the fact that people of the present will want to compare past players to their era. And if they see a completely different game to what they're seeing, they will downplay that legend regardless of goals. You know this to be true because you see it happen all the time with Pele do you not? What will save Messi from becoming another Pele is the insane aesthetic things he did on the pitch so that his goal scoring records do not get discredited by younger generations.

Personally, I believe it's this shared idea of who the best footballers of all time are, that matters most. That being Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Yet that argument will not be about goal scoring stats, but about being the best talents at the time with a World Cup to their name. How their name came to be associated with the best of all time is through previous generations watching them in their prime, who do take into account goals, but also flair, assists, dribbling, etc... basically what goes into making a dominant footballer of his era.

Maradona last played in 1998. It's about to be 25 years since then. Are you betting on the idea that Maradona will only be known for his goal scoring record in 25 more years or that he won't be remembered? That's insane. It's an argument only being put forward because it makes the "goalscoring record only matters" look sound. Reality says it's not true. His name still hangs around because his name is now stuck with the label of greatest of all time due to his generation's opinion of him (which didn't take into account only his goals), plus his World Cup feats.

I think there are two separate lists with Greatest of All time associations. The Messi, Maradona, and Pele list. And the Messi vs Ronaldo list. I rarely see Ronaldo included with the other two names. I think the former list with the World Cup Winners will stick because it is currently done by people of all ages more often where as the Ronaldo one is usually only in younger generations', and specifically with Ronaldo fans only. When there are more younger generations who have no affinity for Ronaldo like the current young generation does, the Ronaldo list will be put to bed.

 

[kouroux]

Good for you bruh, I was talking about the legacy of the player for the general public. There'll always be hipsters in everything.

Disagreeing with the mass doesn't make one a hipster. You might wanna look up the term

 

[kouroux]

Watching strikers bullying defenders and smashing it into the back of the net does nothing for you? Or perfect runs, movement, late karatekick finishes to win CL matches etc.?
He plays for the wrong club obviously, but it's very hard not to be fascinated by what he's doing. I'm 6'3'' and was a striker my entire career myself, have been watching football for 40+ years and I can tell you his movement, physique, spacial awareness, finishing and instinct is the best I have ever seen. City are not playing to his strengths at all and he still breaks every record along the way. It's madness.
He is a freak of nature making the thing in football look too easy.

Certain of his game are exceptional and can be appreciated but overall as a player ? He's not my cup of tea. He isn't a player I would pay to watch for instance. I don't think it's an outrageous take

 

[Moby]

Disagreeing with the mass doesn't make one a hipster. You might wanna look up the term

Of course it does. The term literally refers to those who disagree with mainstream opinion.

 

[kouroux]

Of course it does. The term literally refers to those who disagree with mainstream opinion.

It really does , my mistake.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Different strokes, etc. I think he's probably the most exciting player in the world right now.

 

[Brwned]

Sorry but in no world is stadiums being named on someone equates to their popularity and legacy with the modern day fan. Heck naming stadiums is something that often has massive political elements attached to it and are barely an objective metric of a player's merit. In fact I would go on to say Meazza is remembered more because a stadium is named after him (and literally no one calls it Guiseppe Meazza stadium, it's the fecking San Siro) than actually knowing anything he ever did. He played at a time when the game was barely professional, it's like talking about English cricketers from the late 1800s and I'm sure you will find their names scribbled on stadiums, stands or museums. No one gives a feck.

As far as Maradona and Ronaldo goes you can take another example of Luis Ronaldo. For me he was easily more talented than C Ronaldo but please do a public poll now asking who is the greater one of those two. Maradona's WC exploits will keep him up for now but the more such machines keep turning up who put up such insane volume of output through incredible longevity the easier it will become to ignore the guys from 60s 80s etc who are mainly remembered for "peaks".

I think you've lost me here. I agree most modern football fans wouldn't care about any player from the '20s. But you're the one that talked about players from the '20s.

Unfortunately for you the majority doesn't see the game that way. Messi and Ronaldo made scoring 50 goals a season regularly the norm and now that's the bare minimum you need to be called a top player. I think in the next few decades we will really realise what those two have actually done and that is replace artistry with absolute machine like output and utterly fascinating numbers at the highest level. It's already clear the legacy of the likes of Maradona is quickly diminishing because they simply never got anywhere close to getting those many number and that's what is remembered in future. If you talk to people about players from 1920s or whatever you get to see history books with number of goals and mainly top goalscorers (and of course trophies) and remembered. And that is what Haaland needs to aim at. Play for fecking 20 years and not have any limit to how many he can score. Just fecking blow everyone out of the water with sheer dominance as a scorer and set every record in the world.

I'm sure most people don't know who Giuseppe Meazza is. But of those who know anything about players from that era, Meazza would be one of the first ones that come to mind, and more for his artistry than his goalscoring.

Who are these goalscorers from the '20s that football fans know about, that somehow proves the only thing that guarantees a long-lasting legacy is goals?

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Let's be real here. The thing that will keep Messi's name alive 50 years from now is the number of goals he scored and the trophies he won. Which is why winning the WC was such a big deal even though he had established himself as one of the greatest ever long ago. Everything else is anecdotal and wears off with time. Nobody apart from a tiny bunch of nerds is gonna be sat checking Fbref records of what his "expected non penalty goal involvement per 90 mins" or anything was. You care about aesthetic side of the game only when you are watching them day in day out, not when it's someone who you've only heard about from your grandpa.

Absolutely. In the end it is the world cup, the number of trophies, the number of ballon d'or and the number of goals that matter. Haaland is like a less skillful Ibra with much faster pace and great positioning in the box.

 

[Zehner]

Let's be real here. The thing that will keep Messi's name alive 50 years from now is the number of goals he scored and the trophies he won. Which is why winning the WC was such a big deal even though he had established himself as one of the greatest ever long ago. Everything else is anecdotal and wears off with time. Nobody apart from a tiny bunch of nerds is gonna be sat checking Fbref records of what his "expected non penalty goal involvement per 90 mins" or anything was. You care about aesthetic side of the game only when you are watching them day in day out, not when it's someone who you've only heard about from your grandpa.

I knew Pelé as the best player ever way before I could tell you how many goals he scored or how many trophies he won. Same goes for Maradona who hasn't even elite scoring stats. In the end, the way you play is much more important to your legacy than anything else. Messi will remain in memory for decades because of his out of this world ability.

Trophies might be a "door opener" since players without big trophies are indeed underrated but once you have won a significant one, it doesn't really matter how many.

 

[Moby]

I think you've lost me here. I agree most modern football fans wouldn't care about any player from the '20s. But you're the one that talked about players from the '20s.



I'm sure most people don't know who Giuseppe Meazza is. But of those who know anything about players from that era, Meazza would be one of the first ones that come to mind, and more for his artistry than his goalscoring.

Who are these goalscorers from the '20s that football fans know about, that somehow proves the only thing that guarantees a long-lasting legacy is goals?

It was a random example referring to a past era, not specifically the 20s itself. But obviously you can go through multiple past decades and the ones that are still considered as the greatest attackers would usually have either goalscoring stats or trophy counts keeping them relevant. And anyway even the likes of Pele, Di Stefano, Eusebio, Cruyff etc are not really relevant for an average modern fan right now, it's more for those who are particularly interested in the history of the game which is a very minor section, outside of their countrymen and even for them, in cases of Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, France etc have modern names that would generally be held in greater regard. Maradona is actually still pretty recent and therefore you have a generation not that old who watched him live. He's won one WC, two league titles of any relevance, no Ballon D'ors even if he wasn't eligible, it won't show up and nothing in europe. None of that stands out in history books and it's basically gonna be his wikipedia page going 'he was considered as one of the greatest players ever' and Netflix documentaries being any evidence of him being great, which all gets very anecdotal. There's literally no way that career is gonna stand against anyone who has won all of those things, plus scored at a ridiculous rate for a long duration of his career and actually has far more to show for his talent - basically Messi as of now.

Maybe it's not clear but we are talking about pretty huge timeframes here. Rules, equipment, pitches everything has changed from the past and will change in the future. You could have WC happening every single year in future and someone ends up winning 5-6 WCs and at that point Pele having won 3 or Diego having won 1 will not even qualify for discussion. So yeah, being top of the metrics is the only way to stand the test of time, once you are not there, you are forgotten and no one has any sort of immortal standing in the game.

 

[Moby]

Absolutely. In the end it is the world cup, the number of trophies, the number of ballon d'or and the number of goals that matter. Haaland is like a less skillful Ibra with much faster pace and great positioning in the box.

Yeah, and he probably won't win the WC but if he goes crazy in other tournaments and puts up record breaking stats in top leagues all this talk of all round play is gonna be irrelevant.

 

[Moby]

I knew Pelé as the best player ever way before I could tell you how many goals he scored or how many trophies he won. Same goes for Maradona who hasn't even elite scoring stats. In the end, the way you play is much more important to your legacy than anything else. Messi will remain in memory for decades because of his out of this world ability.

Trophies might be a "door opener" since players without big trophies are indeed underrated but once you have won a significant one, it doesn't really matter how many.

You are a massive nerd sat on a football forum the whole day arguing about Messi v Ronaldo, we are talking about normal people here.

 

[HisNameIsEarl]

Many of this discussions hypotheses about stats and lasting fame might be verified or falsified with Just Fontaine and this other guy, don't know his name.

 

[Zehner]

You are a massive nerd sat on a football forum the whole day arguing about Messi v Ronaldo, we are talking about normal people here.

Nothing wrong with being a nerd. But if I'm a massive one, what are you, considering you're at 48k posts? That makes for 11 posts a day over a period of 12 years. Considering how likeable you are, you probably sent more posts than WhatsApp messages since you've signed up on here. Obviously not nerdy at all to spend so much time on a football forum. I'm sure the ladies can't get enough of you when they see your RedCafe account.

Explains why you're so tribal, though. Everybody would need something to identify with in your situation I guess

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Yeah, and he probably won't win the WC but if he goes crazy in other tournaments and puts up record breaking stats in top leagues all this talk of all round play is gonna be irrelevant.

CR7 didn't win the world cup but it doesn't stop him to be considered as one of the all time great consider his achievements, records, trophies and personal honors he won in the industry. However world cup is still very important and that's why it means so much to Messi.