Nostalgia Draft - QF: Physiocrat vs harms

With all players in their 3 year peaks, which team would win this game?


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Synco

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Team Physio_______________________________________Team harms (after tactical change)


Team harms - original formation before tactical change (made 7 hours before final whistle)

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Team Physio

Tactics – Attacking

Formation - 4222

Defensive Line Balanced

Marking – Zonal

Inspired by the Brazilian sides of the 1990s. Vieri (64 goals in 75 games in Serie A ) will be the focal point of the attack who will bully harms' CBs in the absence of Vidic. This allows Shevchenko his best role were he can drop deep and roam left and right. Rivaldo and Silva will also be positionally fluid. This get the best out of Rivaldo: he has licence to roam score and create as well as utilise his crossing ability to find Vieri's monstrous head (he is the all-time scorer of headed goals in Serie-A history). Rivaldo will also be a threat from set pieces and now has Rijkaard to find as well as Vieri in the air. David Silva reprises his Spain role as a hardworking wide playmaker.

Albertini will run the midfield as the DLP, utilising his excellent long-passing Mascherano will screen the back four and will drop into the CB position when needed. Both Albertini and Mascherano will be positionally reserved to allow Jorginho and Bennarivo to push high up and offer a lot in attack. Rijkaard and Thuram are excellent defenders and athletes who will be comfortable pushing wider when needed when harms plays on the counter.

In goal we have the all-time great Buffon as the last man in defence.

Motto - score more than the opposition.

Gianluigi Buffon (03-06)

Jorghino - (92-95)
Antonio Benarrivo - (92-95)

Lilian Thuram - (97-00)
Frank Rijkaard - (92-95)

Demetrio Albertini - (92-95)
Javier Mascherano (08-11)

David Silva (09-12)

Rivaldo - (97-00)
Christian Vieri - (00-03)

Andriy Shevchenko - (03-06)

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Team harms

The actual formation is a bit lopsided to adjust to my player's strengths and weaknesses. In fact, it's a hybrid formation between a 3-5-2 and a lopsided 4-4-2 with Evra moving back and Beckham and Iniesta moving to wide midfield roles.

Defense

On the left Evra will be more conservative (for a wing-back), and you'll notice that he is paired with a more attacking midfielder in Iniesta, while on the right Beckham has more freedom to push forward with Mendieta providing more cover to those wide areas. My team would defend aggressively & proactively this time though, making the most of Koeman's and Rio's ability to sniff out the danger — I don't think that sitting back suits this side at all.

All three of my centre backs have their own tasks. Before you'll even ask — of course Tassotti played as a centre back, but in this case his role won't be too different from your usual man-marking right back from the 80's/early 90's. He will focus his attention on Rivaldo — not that he'd follow him around even when the latter goes to the bathroom, but most of the time when it doesn't hurt structural integrity. Rio's main focus would be on Sheva, with Koeman having relative freedom to participate in attacking build-up.

Introduction of Jari Litmanen

It would be an easy decision to start with Carlos Tevez — an all-rounded hard-working striker who has a proven partnership with Cristiano, but I wanted to partner Litmanen with the latter for quite some time now. Litmanen is one of the smartest players that I've seen and his role at Ajax suits Cristiano perfectly — especially before Kluivert fully established himself as a starter, Jari played this 9,5 role up front, scoring almost a goal per game (36 goals in 39 games during his break-through season) and constantly providing his partners with goalscoring opportunities. That Ajax side was a thing of beauty because it had so many possible goalscorers — Litmanen, de Boers, George, Overmars, Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Rijkaard, Blind... and Litmanen's movement and smart interplay made him the perfect conductor for this free-flowing attacking football.

Set pieces advantage

I have 2 of the greatest set-piece takers of all-time in David Beckham and Ronald Koeman, as well as peak Cristiano who had scored 6-7 free kick goals per season before completely losing that ability for whatever mystery reason. Corners, direct free kicks, long-distance bullet-esque shots & curled beauties, I have it all — and set pieces often end up becoming a match-winning advantage in close games.

Big game players & variety of goalscoring options

Andrés Iniesta has arguably the greatest big game resume of all-time with his insane MotM collection. Cristiano, Litmanen, Mendieta, Koeman, Beckham also has a history of match-winning performances in late stages of CL & international competitions. Even Čech has provided one insane performance after another in different CL seasons, most notably keeping Messi quiet for 10 actual hours — before finally conceding, already while wearing an Arsenal shirt.

Maximizing Cristiano's influence

We all know how demanding Cristiano is of his partners — and this team provides him every type of service available. Smart interplay, one-twos and through-balls from Iniesta, Litmanen & Evra, long passes from deeper areas from Koeman, Beckham, Dunga and Mendieta, Beckham's impeccable crossing...

Petr Čech (2004-2007)

Simply incredible goalkeeper. Not the flashiest one, but his control of the box was simply unparalleled. Schmeichel will always be my choice if only for a sentimental value, but Čech has a very strong claim on being the greatest PL goalkeeper ever if we combine the level of his performances with his incredible longevity.
  • Most clean sheets in a season for Chelsea: 28 clean sheets in 2004–05.
  • Most consecutive clean sheets for Chelsea in all competitions: 7 in 2005–06 (shared record)
  • Most Premier League clean sheets in a season: 24 in 2004–05.
  • Best European Goalkeeper: 2005, 2007
  • UEFA Club Football Awards Best Goalkeeper: 2005, 2007
  • UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
  • Premier League Golden Glove: 2004–05
  • PL record of 1,025 minutes without letting in a goal (later beaten by VDS)
Ronald Koeman (1992-1995)

Such a marvelous player. He had scored 41 goals over those three seasons even becoming CL top-scorer in 1993/94. He had scored the winning goal in the 1992 CL final, reached another in 1993/94 as well as winning a bunch of other titles with Cruyff's Dream Team.

Rio Ferdinand (2006-2009)

Rolls-Royce of a defender, he really had it all — pace, power, composure & leadership ability. Sometimes it felt simply unfair to the opposition when Rio would gracefully and visibly effortlessly break their attack & stride forward with the ball at his feet.

Mauro Tassotti (1992-1995)

Tassotti was a part of the greatest club defense that ever were — Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta & Tassotti. He was an excellent defender with decent attacking contribution (something that is often overlooked when people talk about him). During this period he had reached three consecutive Champions League finals, captaining his team in the famous 4:0 demolition of Barca’s Dream Team (with Stoichkov & Romario) — where he and Maldini had to compensate for the absence of both Baresi & Costacurta. That 1993/94 season was outstanding in many ways — in the league Tassotti’s Milan won the league by scoring just 36 goals in 34 games, all because of their defense that conceded mere 15 goals throughout the entire season!

Patrice Evra (2008-2011)

The integral part of our best ever defensive unit and all-round nice guy. After 2011 he started getting a bit dodgy in defense but before that he was absolutely brilliant — Neville appropriately named him the best fullback in the world between two boxes. You can find a more productive player in the final third, you can find a sturdier defender, but you'd find it hard to find a player that influence the overall play more than Uncle Pat.

Dunga (1992-1995)

A player that got a whole era named after him! «Dunga Era» was a bit of a misrepresentation of him to be honest, he was not just a thug, but a very technically refined player with an outstanding passing range — even with an outside of his boot. Still, I can’t ask for a better player to patrol the zone in front of my defense. Scarily consistent, physical, with methodically accurate passing — with his performance in the World Cup final of 1994 being the highlight of that era.


Gaizka Mendieta (1998-2001)

Becoming UEFA Club Midfielder of the Season is no mean feat — let alone doing it twice in a row while competing with peak Redondo, Keane and Davids. Before his inexplicable failure at Lazio Mendieta was on his way to becoming a modern version of Johan Neeskens — starting out as a right back he developed in a fantastic all-rounded midfielder with endless energy, great passing range & dribbling and, of course, a special knack for scoring all sorts of goals. His performances from that peak period were borderline genius — winning multiple trophies with Valencia & leading them to two consecutive Champions League finals. Maybe I’ll do a gif of a moment from the game against Real Madrid that explains him the best — first he makes a last-ditch tackle on Raúl, who is already getting ready to shoot & a minute later he finds himself on the other side of the pitch, scoring the first goal of the game. Mendieta in a nutshell.

David Beckham (1998-2001)

The man could run for days, created chance after chance with incredible consistency and scored some crucial goals — both from free kicks and from an open play. Cristiano would've loved playing with him :devil:

season-------------games-----------goals---------assists----------gpg-------------apg----------


Andrés Iniesta (2009-2012)

Don Andrès is football. He doesn’t pull rabbits out of his hat, he pulls out big, beautiful peacocks.

Cristiano Ronaldo (2009-2012)

Weirdly enough, it’s somehow easy to forget just how good he was during his first years in Madrid, especially when you look at him now. He still had that flair & creativity, he was able to beat players for fun & even scored free kicks on a regular basis — all while scoring 50-60 goals per season. Best player in the draft.

Jari Litmanen (1993-1996)
He was the crown jewel of the last great pre-Bosman team and truly one of the stand out players of the 90's — before the injuries subdued his career he was so influential and decisive that Ajax were actually happy to let Bergkamp go. They had a better alternative. “Jari had great vision. He was always free. You could always give him a pass. Not so fast but always right on time. He could also defend, Bergkamp didn’t defend. I think for Ajax it was perfect that Dennis left and Jari came,” says Van Gaal.

85 goals in 122 games for Ajax, 2 CL finals, Eredivisie & CL top scorer, Player of the Year in Netherlands — I can go on and on, but those who watched football in the 90's don't need me to hype him up.
 
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harms

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It's a nice 4-4-2, but I think my set up is going to help me dominate the midfield (and I mean really dominate — Mascherano & Albertini are simply worse players than any of my midfielder without even counting the additional help from the likes of Litmanen, Beckham & Koeman) — and I can't say that I'm a fan of this use of Rivaldo, but people may disagree with me on that.
 

Šjor Bepo

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It's a nice 4-4-2, but I think my set up is going to help me dominate the midfield (and I mean really dominate — Mascherano & Albertini are simply worse players than any of my midfielder without even counting the additional help from the likes of Litmanen, Beckham & Koeman) — and I can't say that I'm a fan of this use of Rivaldo, but people may disagree with me on that.
Dont rate pretty boy at all and already said my opinion on Mascherano so the midfield really settles my vote for you, saying that, whats wrong with Rivaldo? Thought him and Silva have a very good balance, has Benarrivo overlapping, Sheva should be a nice fit, is it Vieri?
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Harms has more quality for sure, but it's hard to visualize how that tactic would play in real life. I can see it either flowing well together or coming off disjointed.
 

harms

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Dont rate pretty boy at all and already said my opinion on Mascherano so the midfield really settles my vote for you, saying that, whats wrong with Rivaldo? Thought him and Silva have a very good balance, has Benarrivo overlapping, Sheva should be a nice fit, is it Vieri?
Generally I'd rather have him as a number 10 or as a left forward in a three, I don't see even a relatively free role on the wing in 4-4-2 as the best role for him. You also can't have Bennarivo pushing forward all the time — Albertini isn't going to cover for him like someone of Davids/Lerby's profile would and there's a double threat of Mendieta & Beckham on the right.

By the way, I've made a great compilation of Mendieta playing against Rivaldo's Barcelona as a right midfielder in a 4-4-2, but it got blocked, so I'm currently waiting on the appeal. There was certainly a trend there, as Mendieta himself noted:
In my day it was Valencia who, somehow, had the measure of Barcelona, when we used to face them in the Champions League, La Liga and the Copa
With Mendieta usually providing insane individual performances (Rivaldo wasn't too shabby either, especially with that hat-trick) — despite Barca having a squad filled with absolute superstars like Rivaldo, Figo, Guardiola, Kluivert etc. I don't think that they've ever faced each other directly, as it was usually right back's/centre back's responsibility to cover Rivaldo, but with Rivaldo playing in that inside left channel & Mendieta occupying that central/right midfield role the latter often had to help his defense out against the Brazilian.


I have to say, I really like the potential chemistry between him and Beckham — Mendieta often played on the right of a midfield 4 and a midfield 3, but his interpretation was very different from Beckham's (most notably he usually cut inside as he was a left-footer, while Becks preferred to stuck out wide and make a cross). Both were so talented, unique and potentially complimentary...
 

antohan

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So is this what the 4-4-2 vs 5-3-2 was all about?

That pair @Physiocrat is very much the sort of pair that would both get pulled all over the place and be pretty ineffective at it. More so if Mascherano is meant to drop into a CB role :confused:

I actually don't like @harms as much as in the last game. There's a lot going on which I'm not sure how it plays out.

Putting it differently, I look at these games as international games. You don't have the luxury of a club side drilled for an entire season or longer, just cobble something together with a bunch of disparate players following specific instructions. Sink or swim stuff.

I can see that midfield three from the last game still having a handle of this game regardless. See the point re: Litmanen. Not at all clear how that backline would work though and Vieri/Shevchenko isn't a pair to be pissing about.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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So is this what the 4-4-2 vs 5-3-2 was all about?

That pair @Physiocrat is very much the sort of pair that would both get pulled all over the place and be pretty ineffective at it. More so if Mascherano is meant to drop into a CB role :confused:

I actually don't like @harms as much as in the last game. There's a lot going on which I'm not sure how it plays out.

Putting it differently, I look at these games as international games. You don't have the luxury of a club side drilled for an entire season or longer, just cobble something together with a bunch of disparate players following specific instructions. Sink or swim stuff.

I can see that midfield three from the last game still having a handle of this game regardless. See the point re: Litmanen. Not at all clear how that backline would work though and Vieri/Shevchenko isn't a pair to be pissing about.
That's a great way of putting it. I can imagine Harms side playing a wide variety of outcomes from dominating to just looking really off and especially the back 3 combined with Beckham-Tassoti is hard to get an impression of how it would handle different sequences with Rivaldo. nAlso not convinced Cristiano would get the service he wants with Litmanen and Iniesta - it could either work great or frustrate him imo.
 

harms

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I actually don't like @harms as much as in the last game. There's a lot going on which I'm not sure how it plays out.
I wouldn’t lie and say that this was my preferred formation without any injuries — but I felt like Koeman would need some additional protection especially with the physicality of Sheva/Vieri.


Also not convinced Cristiano would get the service he wants with Litmanen and Iniesta - it could either work great or frustrate him imo.
Litmanen was amazing at bringing others into play (he was one of the main reasons why that Ajax side had so many viable goalscoring options) and I see him very much as a Benzema-like figure for Cristiano here. There’s a stylistic difference between that Ajax or Barca & the sides that Cristiano played for, but I can’t see how two of the smartest footballers of all-time (his mind is the aspect that I rate in Litmanen the most) wouldn’t be able to tweak their game to fit the needs of Cristiano. Certainly not at the point that it would frustrate him — a tiki-taka Spain of 2010 would’ve frustrated him, but this has nothing to do with my side & my midfielders all of whom are very much ideal for a direct & attacking football.
 

Physiocrat

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@antohan

I actually didn't really think harms would go with a back three here at all although it clearly dovetails with that thread.

On Mascherano, he will not drop into CB if Rijkaard or Thuram are pulled wide and both Bennarivo and Jorginho are high up. At that point Silva will drop into CM. It is a temporary setup to deal with transitions.

That said I think the only guy who will be an issue in transition is Ronaldo although it certainly does seem an odd setup for him given it isn't the later striker version. I don't know who Koeman will pass too here, his skillset is seriously under utilised here. He is also going to have a huge problem with Vieri, it is a serious mismatch

On Rivaldo, he can cut inside, score goals, create (but isn't required to be the sole playmaker) and also cross to Vieri and Shevchenko.

On the two vs everyone in harms team in midfield is hyperbole. Rivaldo and Silva can make it narrow when they need to and Shevchenko works very hard. Further when I am in possession, unless the wing backs press up high Iniesta and Mendieta are going to be pulled from side to side all game and will give me a pretty easy time in possession.

One thing that needs emphasising is that I have three extremely good goal scorers on the pitch and harms has one. Further Thuram is the best player possibly in football history to deal with Ronaldo.
 

Physiocrat

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Thanks for setting up @Synco

Another point, Becks is not optimal at RWB. He relied on an early cross and also (not in a bad way) on a full-back overlapping to provide space for a cross from the edge of the box when he didn't cross early. He isn't optimised as an RWB.
 

harms

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One thing that needs emphasising is that I have three extremely good goal scorers on the pitch and harms has one. Further Thuram is the best player possibly in football history to deal with Ronaldo.
Wtf :lol:

In the chosen peak years:
Sheva - 29, 26, 28
Vieri - 19, 25, 27
Rivaldo - 28, 28, 23

Cristiano - 33, 53, 60
Litmanen - 36 (more than any of your extremely good goalscorers btw), 26, 23

Not to mention average duds like
Koeman - 19, 12, 17 & Mendieta - 12, 19, 14
 

harms

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Another point, Becks is not optimal at RWB. He relied on an early cross and also (not in a bad way) on a full-back overlapping to provide space for a cross from the edge of the box when he didn't cross early. He isn't optimised as an RWB.
Here's an example of Beckham as a right wing back.

And it's a fluid formation that changes to a 4-4-2, which is specified in an OP, so he has perfectly enough cover & overlapping action.

Cristiano - Litmanen
Iniesta - Dunga - Mendieta - Beckham
Evra - Rio - Koeman - Tassotti
Cech
Further when I am in possession, unless the wing backs press up high Iniesta and Mendieta are going to be pulled from side to side all game and will give me a pretty easy time in possession.
That is genuinely something that I can't imagine at all.

I don't know who Koeman will pass too here, his skillset is seriously under utilised here.
There's one very obvious target and it's one of the clearest routes to goal. But I think that there's certainly some truth to that, ideally I'd have two wide forwards on either side for Koeman to ping those long balls to.
 

Enigma_87

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@harms side definitely looks worse than the previous round. I don't like Koeman/Rio pairing in the middle and I don't really rate Koeman that much. Especially in a matchup against Vieri he's really bad fit.

Having said that @Physiocrat CM looks really light and I can't see Rivaldo putting a good shift. Silva is a good fit on the right and generally it's not about stylistic fit considering Benarrivo and Jorginho are pretty good on the overlap, but it does lack bodies in the center.

All in all giving it to harms as things stand.
 

harms

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@harms side definitely looks worse than the previous round. I don't like Koeman/Rio pairing in the middle and I don't really rate Koeman that much. Especially in a matchup against Vieri he's really bad fit.
I'd probably say that Sheva is a worse fit for him than Vieri even, I'm less worried about the latter, especially with Čech (whose control over the air was arguably his most impressive feature & I'd have him as one of, if not the best keepers of all-time in that aspect — somewhere alongside Schmeichel & Dasayev). Strength wasn't as huge of an issue for Koeman as the lack of agility was. Hence why he's protected from all sides.

The only way to keep Koeman relatively safe is by going proactive, and I really don't see how Physio's midfield, even including his wide men, are going to stop mine from completely and utterly dominating the middle, limiting those encounters for Koeman & allowing him to do what he does best — create, score and prevent dangerous attacks with his interceptions & positioning rather than by stopping forward in a duel.
 

harms

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From 1:47 he explains how he deals with crosses & aerial balls. Someone should show this to De Gea :(
 

Physiocrat

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Here's an example of Beckham as a right wing back.

And it's a fluid formation that changes to a 4-4-2, which is specified in an OP, so he has perfectly enough cover & overlapping action.

Cristiano - Litmanen
Iniesta - Dunga - Mendieta - Beckham
Evra - Rio - Koeman - Tassotti
Cech
I saw that and Becks did a decent job there but it is hardly his optimal position for reasons I already outlined. Even as a 442 Tassotti behind him sticks out as a bad fit

That is genuinely something that I can't imagine at all.
You are making out as if Rivaldo and Silva will just leave Mascherano and Albertini on their own. They will drift in and give them options. Also if I have the ball and switch the ball from flank to flank on a regular basis which I clearly can given the passing ability of the 3 of the midfield four, your three in midfield will constantly be being pulled outside which I can exploit. The obvious thing for you to do would be to go 442 in the defensive phase but then your 3 vs 2 argument will clearly not hold

There's one very obvious target and it's one of the clearest routes to goal. But I think that there's certainly some truth to that, ideally I'd have two wide forwards on either side for Koeman to ping those long balls to.
 

Physiocrat

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@Enigma_87

Rivaldo can certainly put a shift in. This was remarked by many watchers of the Dead Drafters match between Brazil and Denmark in 1998 in which Rivaldo played in a very similar role in a very similar system
 

harms

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@Enigma_87

Rivaldo can certainly put a shift in. This was remarked by many watchers of the Dead Drafters match between Brazil and Denmark in 1998 in which Rivaldo played in a very similar role in a very similar system
After just watching 2 Barca vs Valencia games in a row I wouldn't be so sure on that myself. He could put a shift in, but he often didn't for whatever reason.
 

harms

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By the way — if we're nitpicking, I have to mention Thuram - Rijkaard as a CB pairing. Thuram of that era played as a right back in a 4 for France & as a right centre back in a 3 for Parma. Rijkaard played as a midfielder for AC Milan and as a central/defensive midfielder who occasionally dropped deeper for Ajax.

Add a left centre back to that and suddenly it becomes perfect (attacking fullbacks on either side aren't looking as dangerous as well). But there is no left centre back there.
 

antohan

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@Physiocrat I can't really see this thing with Iniesta and Mendieta getting pulled all over the place. Looks like you watched a pair of Hungarian midfielders being all over the shop and now somehow project that everywhere.

@harms it's pretty clear to me you should have just gone 4-4-2 and not done all this retrofitting to protect Koeman. I agree agility was a bigger issue than physicality, but you've wound up making the performance of 4 players suboptimal to hide the weaknesses of 1. Doesn't seem like a good deal to me at all and it's the sort of thing that gets you going into a game on the backfoot with players either mentally broken or second-guessing themselves at every turn.

I'm more the sort that would always go for everyone (inc. Koeman) playing to their strengths and that them doing so will be enough. Maybe have a word with Rio that he needs to have a monster game and that's pretty much it.

Did you ever see SAF completely switch tactics to hide he had to play JOS instead of Vidic? Not that I can remember.
 

harms

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@harms it's pretty clear to me you should have just gone 4-4-2 and not done all this retrofitting to protect Koeman. I agree agility was a bigger issue than physicality, but you've wound up making the performance of 4 players suboptimal to hide the weaknesses of 1. Doesn't seem like a good deal to me at all and it's the sort of thing that gets you going into a game on the backfoot with players either mentally broken or second-guessing themselves at every turn.

I'm more the sort that would always go for everyone (inc. Koeman) playing to their strengths and that them doing so will be enough. Maybe have a word with Rio that he needs to have a monster game and that's pretty much it.

Did you ever see SAF completely switch tactics to hide he had to play JOS instead of Vidic? Not that I can remember.
That's a fair criticism. But Koeman is not an utility player (and in hindsight picking him for a bench was an oversight, he's something who is worthy building a side around, but he's hardly the best substitution) — and the second thing is that I'm not only limiting his weaknesses but also trying to maximise his strengths, because he genuinely is one of the best players on the pitch.

Still, as it is specified in the OP, 4-4-2 is also a part of the game plan & Evra and Beckham have a distinctly different role. 3-5-2 is selected as it's my team's shape in a defensive stage, but in attack and in transitions something closer to a loop-sided 4-4-2 is to be expected.
 

Physiocrat

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@antohan

It wasn't just the Hungarian players. The LCM and RCM constantly have to shuttle outwide in the organised defensive phase. The only way around this is to keep the wing backs high which just leaves a lot of space in behind for the two strikers to peel wide especially Shevchenko

To me it is a huge tactical mistake to default to a 352 in the defensive phase. It seems to be have chosen just to protect Koeman. 442 out of possession and 352 in possession makes a lot more sense to me for harms' setup.

@harms

Rijkaard can clearly play CB to a very high level with his physical and tactical traits in his declared peak. Thuram could well end up drifting wide to cover the gaps behind Jorginho when he bombs forward so his RCB experience at Parma fits perfectly.
 

antohan

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That's a fair criticism. But Koeman is not an utility player (and in hindsight picking him for a bench was an oversight, he's something who is worthy building a side around, but he's hardly the best substitution) — and the second thing is that I'm not only limiting his weaknesses but also trying to maximise his strengths, because he genuinely is one of the best players on the pitch.

Still, as it is specified in the OP, 4-4-2 is also a part of the game plan & Evra and Beckham have a distinctly different role. 3-5-2 is selected as it's my team's shape in a defensive stage, but in attack and in transitions something closer to a loop-sided 4-4-2 is to be expected.
Yeah, I gathered that. Just think it would be far better to present a 4-4-2 and point out Beckham's defensive workrate and Tassotti tucking in as and when than present it that way.

Fact is in possession Koeman would come forth (else what would be the bloody point?) and Tassotti would tuck into a pair with Rio. Your pitch and formation should reflect you taking the game to the oppo and dominating that midfield, not look all wonky to protect him.

Agree it was a bad pick when bound to fill in for Vidic or Rio, not the best partner for either and in a side that frankly doesn't get much of the upside of having him.

Have drafted him before and know well enough how his shortcomings get torn into while his contribution is overlooked. The guy won the Euros and two European Cups so must have been doing something right and not been the total liability he is regarded as :lol:
 

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Rijkaard can clearly play CB to a very high level with his physical and tactical traits in his declared peak. Thuram could well end up drifting wide to cover the gaps behind Jorginho when he bombs forward so his RCB experience at Parma fits perfectly.
A high level not being his peak, that's what I was talking about. Neither of them are weak or unable to play there — but then you're the one trying to sell Beckham as someone who won't be as effective in his current role.
 

Physiocrat

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A high level not being his peak, that's what I was talking about. Neither of them are weak or unable to play there — but then you're the one trying to sell Beckham as someone who won't be as effective in his current role.
Beckham without an RB to overlap him is inferior to Rijkaard or Thuram at CB in their declared peaks, that's all my claim is.
 

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Beckham without an RB to overlap him is inferior to Rijkaard or Thuram at CB in their declared peaks, that's all my claim is.
In fairness, I think this is a fair point and the reason I'm more intrigued at how Becks would fare as RCM in a trio or diamond.
 

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In fairness, I think this is a fair point and the reason I'm more intrigued at how Becks would fare as RCM in a trio or diamond.
would be much better as a wingback IMO
 

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I'd probably say that Sheva is a worse fit for him than Vieri even, I'm less worried about the latter, especially with Čech (whose control over the air was arguably his most impressive feature & I'd have him as one of, if not the best keepers of all-time in that aspect — somewhere alongside Schmeichel & Dasayev). Strength wasn't as huge of an issue for Koeman as the lack of agility was. Hence why he's protected from all sides.
Vieri wasn't just a brute. At his peak he had a very good turn and was pretty aggressive and mobile in his approach. He won't just be a targetman to knock balls down. I remember one particular goal when he did the Macheda turn and turned (I think Thuram) inside out. Coupled with a great shot even outside the box he can buy space off Koeman and be very dangerous on the turn. I'd definitely have a more stopper-ish figure next to Rio to handle him, whilst Sheva / Rio seems like a good even battle. Vieri was more agile than often given credit for.
The only way to keep Koeman relatively safe is by going proactive, and I really don't see how Physio's midfield, even including his wide men, are going to stop mine from completely and utterly dominating the middle, limiting those encounters for Koeman & allowing him to do what he does best — create, score and prevent dangerous attacks with his interceptions & positioning rather than by stopping forward in a duel.
That one I buy. If you control proceedings and take both Sheva / Vieri outside your half and your box it limits the opportunities that striking duo would get.
 

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@Enigma_87

Rivaldo can certainly put a shift in. This was remarked by many watchers of the Dead Drafters match between Brazil and Denmark in 1998 in which Rivaldo played in a very similar role in a very similar system
Don't recall that game in particular, watched it long time ago, but from memory Brazil didn't play with someone like Albertini in that role. I'd much rather have a holder/DM in that position and move Silva as AM/ playmaker role which will shore up the midfield.

Didn't follow the reinforcement process, but surely you have a CB / DM as a sub? Moving Rijkaard at DM/B2B next to Masch and playing a proper 4-3-3 with Silva at the top would helped your midfield a lot and blow for blow could even tilt the midfield battle in your favor.
 

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would be much better as a wingback IMO
I kept mulling over it and couldn't quite make up my mind.

As RCM he would get the overlapping fullback which we are more used to seeing him play with. That said, I also felt he would end up too narrow and I would want him wider. For RWB he has the engine but not the pace.

All in all, right midfielder if I ever saw one :lol:
 

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Smells like 1998. Physio's narrow 442 looks like Brazil's system with Rivaldo in the same role. Meanwhile, Harms looks like the 352 England set-up with that alternating Anderton/Beckham side of the midfield. My recollection is Rivaldo worked harder in these slightly deeper roles where he didn't have the full freedom in the 10 or 9.5 position. Beckham has a lot of the tools for a RWB, but his lack of pace didn't serve him well there when Keegan tried him in that role for England in 1999 (think the Scottish left-winger Neil McCann got in behind him a few times in the play-off). A lot would depend on the compactness and support from the likes of Mendieta and Tassotti though, but I feel Rivaldo's directness would be well placed to make an impact in that area.

Rijkaard can clearly play CB to a very high level with his physical and tactical traits in his declared peak. Thuram could well end up drifting wide to cover the gaps behind Jorginho when he bombs forward so his RCB experience at Parma fits perfectly.
Researched Rijkaard a lot before we picked him. It was as everyone knows that hybrid role for Ajax where it was basically CB against quality opposition or when under pressure and then DM when they were on top (which they usually were to be fair).

For example, this was a 17/18 year old Ronaldo against Ajax, where Rijkaard is basically playing a stopper role.


(As an aside, just how good is Ronaldo here for his age :drool: )

The problem is that was such a unique set-up, so it's difficult to replicate the exact same gig for Rijkaard. But in terms of his toolkit at the time, he' looks fine as a CB. We now already how good he was as a pure CB at Euro '88, and I think he showed enough central defensive work during the time period to prove his quality in that area of the park.
 

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Vieri wasn't just a brute. At his peak he had a very good turn and was pretty aggressive and mobile in his approach. He won't just be a targetman to knock balls down. I remember one particular goal when he did the Macheda turn and turned (I think Thuram) inside out. Coupled with a great shot even outside the box he can buy space off Koeman and be very dangerous on the turn. I'd definitely have a more stopper-ish figure next to Rio to handle him, whilst Sheva / Rio seems like a good even battle. Vieri was more agile than often given credit for.
Absolutely surprisingly nimble for a guy his size. And yes, I know exactly which goal that is, it was vs Parma with Thuram alongside Cannavaro. Pretty sure Buffon was already in nets.
 

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I have to say, I really like the potential chemistry between him and Beckham — Mendieta often played on the right of a midfield 4 and a midfield 3, but his interpretation was very different from Beckham's (most notably he usually cut inside as he was a left-footer, while Becks preferred to stuck out wide and make a cross). Both were so talented, unique and potentially complimentary...
Doesn't really matter as the point stands, but Mendieta was right-footed, with a decent left peg.

/anal draft nerd
 

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Doesn't really matter as the point stands, but Mendieta was right-footed, with a decent left peg.

/anal draft nerd
Thanks for that! Thinking back on it, you're right — it even irked me a bit when I've posted it but then I've tried to remember his most notable goals and they all were with his left! Yet, he certainly took penalties with his right foot.

A general point about the playing style still stands though, he had very different priorities compared to Beckham, even though both often played technically in the same position.
 

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Is Rio a good fit at LCB @harms ?
I wasn't wanting to push this hard but he was always on the right of a back four from my memory and always alongside the more defensive full-back. This isn't to say he couldn't play there although I don't remember him defending too much outwide, although I could be wrong on that point.

Onto the goal scoring stats that harms mentioned earlier. I calculated the goals per game ratios in the players respective leagues on the declared peaks.

Ronaldo 1.11
Litmanen 0.69

Vieri 0.85
Shevchenko 0.67
Rivaldo 0.54

I did underestimate Litmanen's peak goal scoring although it must be noted that Litmanen scored those goals in the Erderversie which although much better than it is now, was not of as high quality especially defensive of Serie A in the early 2000s when Nesta, Cannavaro etc were pretty much at their peak. Also Rivaldo scored in a generally more competitive La Liga than Ronaldo. Rivaldo's peak is 97-00 and between 98/99 and 01/02 La Liga had four different winners in four seasons which only ever previously happened between 1970-74 and 1942-46
 

harms

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I wasn't wanting to push this hard but he was always on the right of a back four from my memory and always alongside the more defensive full-back. This isn't to say he couldn't play there although I don't remember him defending too much outwide, although I could be wrong on that point.

Onto the goal scoring stats that harms mentioned earlier. I calculated the goals per game ratios in the players respective leagues on the declared peaks.

Ronaldo 1.11
Litmanen 0.69

Vieri 0.85
Shevchenko 0.67
Rivaldo 0.54

I did underestimate Litmanen's peak goal scoring although it must be noted that Litmanen scored those goals in the Erderversie which although much better than it is now, was not of as high quality especially defensive of Serie A in the early 2000s when Nesta, Cannavaro etc were pretty much at their peak. Also Rivaldo scored in a generally more competitive La Liga than Ronaldo. Rivaldo's peak is 97-00 and between 98/99 and 01/02 La Liga had four different winners in four seasons which only ever previously happened between 1970-74 and 1942-46
You’re also quite conveniently ignoring Koeman & Mendieta — secondary goal threats that you don’t have any real alternative to. And, competitive or not (Serie A is obviously a notch above, but La Liga wasn’t too tough to score in), Cristiano is not in the same tier as your strikers, he’s clearly in a tier above.

The likes of Koeman and Litmanen also proved anything that they needed to prove in CL, both becoming top scorers in the competition.
 

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The main issue is still midfield battle, despite how Physio tries to paint my team as a team that lacks goalscoring options ( :lol: ) or a team with sub-par uses of my players (with a couple of his stars playing in the same "sub-par", although I think that both look very much alright, roles).

This is Mendieta eliminating Rivaldo's Barcelona on the way to the CL final.

This is Iniesta, for me (it may sound controversial, but I don't care), the second best player on the pitch, slightly ahead of Rivaldo & Sheva with an impeccable big game record.

This is Dunga, dominating the World Cup final


Their counterparts are Albertini (weird player that wasn't truly a world-class playmaker, despite his passing being his stand out feature, and wasn't really a dominant DM, jack of all trades, master of none) and Mascherano — before that ass-tearing performance against Germany by the way.
 

harms

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Is Rio a good fit at LCB @harms ?
I wasn't wanting to push this hard but he was always on the right of a back four from my memory and always alongside the more defensive full-back. This isn't to say he couldn't play there although I don't remember him defending too much outwide, although I could be wrong on that point.
That's not true. Rio sometimes played on the left and if I'm not misremembering things, the partnership originally was mirrored before Fergie decided to swap their roles (and the most iconic version of that defense was certainly Evra-Vidic-Rio-RB). Those are formations from zonalmarking — I'm a bit surprised as I was sure that 2006/07 was the season where they've made this switch final.

vs Roma


vs Chelsea



And on some occasion Fergie used to swap them in order to better fit the opposition: "The manager decided to play me on the right and Rio on the left," Vidic said — from Sunderland game from 2011.