OGS Attacking Football Myth

[passing-wind]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/talksp...-says-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-jose-mourinho/amp/

This is solely about the credentials of what Solskjaer is implementing as a manager of this team. If in a hypothetical instance Ole makes it to 2021 and has amassed a squad full of individuals that are his own etc. What does Ole give us tactically from a coaching perspective that allows us to close the gap between top six and top three (25 - 30 points) ?

The reason why this is more of a concern is because I'm mystified when I watch and hear comments from fans / media portraying that we play a good foundation of attacking football. Which consequently fans use as something to be validated in giving Solskjaer time. I think for the most part many are decieving themselves. For me Ole managerially (on the field) is a United cultured version of Mourinho. The ethos of our team is exactly the same, it's that we are looking to win games of football without use of the football. If Mourinho got criticism for it why doesn't Ole ? The only difference is that Jose defends deep in low blocks compressing spaces, Ole supposedly wants us to press higher to win the ball further up the pitch. Pressing high up the field is also counter productive under Solskjaer, we as a team are poor in possession it makes no sense leaving less spaces behind for the runners in a counter.

Heading into the new season what have we witnessed from pre season / training to address these footballing issues ? All the emphasis seemingly has been towards the fitness of players (should be a mandatory priority irrespective) It was apparent from our fixture against Kristiansund that our pre season preparations was questionnable, we played a team that sit deep and had no answers for 90 mins aside a penalty decision. Fast forward a few weeks and it's an exact replica with Palace and Wolves.

Ball retention, attacking shape, movement in / out of possession, creating spaces has absolutely nothing to do with players surnames and quality at ones disposal. These are coaching instructions that managers need to drill players which become instinctive measurements in performances. These are problems we had under Jose and they are the same problems we now have under Ole tactically. This is also why the Ole / Klopp comparisons are uneducated. Klopp has an attacking philosophy as his managerial imprint which he has proven competitively outside of Liverpool. When you appoint a Pep / Jürgen you can easily dissect the identity of their team in hindsight with time, so if they state "I will be successful here" you can estimate how their teams will back up that statement from coaching to the temperament they instill in the players. When Solskjaer claims he "will be a success here" there's a million questions behind what basis he transitions the definition of success on his team. My question is what do fans see in our team that can take us forward outside of a counter attacking transition.

To clarify this isn't about sacking the manager or coach X-Y-Z being better, this is about if Solskjaer gets his way in three seasons what does the team look like on the premises of what he's given us in glimpses.

 

[haram]

We just need a pre season.

 

[2 man midfield]

I think he's probably realised what his predecessors realised before him - if you try and play attacking football with these turnips, you're going to get stung quite badly. For all the shit Jose got about his overly defensive style, I could sort of see why we did it. The fact none of them did anything about it is another argument, so let's see if Ole can.

 

[FootyGirl88]

What I wanna know is why have we gone back to a 4231? It didn't work under Jose so why is Ole persisting with it. We need to go back to a 433 with Pogba playing further forward.

 

[TrimiPejes]

I’m afraid we don’t really have an attacking plan. That gets more obvious as soon as we get time on the ball.

We have a long way to go I’m afraid

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

What I wanna know is why have we gone back to a 4231? It didn't work under Jose so why is Ole persisting with it. We need to go back to a 433 with Pogba playing further forward.

I hate the 4231 and the double pivot.

Please end it soon.

Our best form under Ole came with a 3 man midfield. And yet we persist with a Pogba-McTominay double pivot. Just horrific.

 

[passing-wind]

We just need a pre season.

sums up the concensus behind last season

 

[haram]

What I wanna know is why have we gone back to a 4231? It didn't work under Jose so why is Ole persisting with it. We need to go back to a 433 with Pogba playing further forward.

He does not want to play Matic or Fred is my only explanation.

 

[VP89]

What I wanna know is why have we gone back to a 4231? It didn't work under Jose so why is Ole persisting with it. We need to go back to a 433 with Pogba playing further forward.

He probably thinks we are left too open with a 433.

 

[passing-wind]

What I wanna know is why have we gone back to a 4231? It didn't work under Jose so why is Ole persisting with it. We need to go back to a 433 with Pogba playing further forward.

Something I was going to touch on Pogba being the sole entity as to why Solskjaer got the job it makes zero sense to revert him to a double pivot midfield. It's one thing doing it with Kante / Matuidi and another with Mctomminay.

There's no use trying to balance the midfield it's a dire state, Pogba should be playing as an advanced no 8 in midfield to support "run into nowhere" Rashford. 4-3-3 with Scott replacing Herrera and holding onto Matic until January for a possible addition is hardly the worst alternative.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

One of the wierdest threads I've read here which sums up the hysteria of this place today. Strange suggestions that counter attacking can't work with a high press and another querying why we play 4.2.3.1 when a different manager with different players didn't win with it.. Maybe everyone just needs to get whatever nonsense is in their head out this evening so we can go back to making sense tomorrow

 

[haram]

Pogba - Matic - Scott

is better than

Pogba - Scott

You don't have to rate Matic but it's far more balanced.

If he is not playing Matic because he cannot get around as much, Ole needs to realise that he has to take that into account and bite that bullet so we can get more out of the midfield and Pogba and Scott. We have energy and legs for the sake of having energy and legs. It's not working.

 

[Bastian]

I agree that it's hard to discern much in way of attacking football bar counter attacks. Pre-season gave us a brief glimpse into the high pressing, and it actually looked good, but, alas, it was only pre-season. The pre-season game OP refers to is a great point, and in hindsight we should have lined up more games of that ilk (maybe better opposition) where counter attack is not really the main weapon, requiring us to break teams down.

Anyhow, we haven't played like that and we haven't recruited like that, so it's hard to understand if that really is the plan. We have looked fairly comfortable at times this season in games, stemming from having competency in possession at the back first and foremost.

The pros and cons have mostly been individual feats. The goals scored by James and the defensive mistakes by some of the back 5.

For me Ole managerially (on the field) is a United cultured version of Mourinho. The ethos of our team is exactly the same, it's that we are looking to win games of football without use of the football.

I think Mourinho had a plan, it was defensive no doubt, to stay solid and compact and attack at speed. He also wanted height and physicality giving us an edge defending and attacking set pieces. And of course, he wants experienced players. All this translates to on field too. Of course the same low level of quality in the squad as a whole means that both scenarios sees us struggling to play a higher level technical game. Jose is somewhat to blame for that, Ole a little, but mainly that's years of gross negligence.

It's hard to discern Ole's planning, what we are supposed to do in possession and what type of player he wants. One day Pereira is mentioned as a midfield player, the next as a #10 and now before Southampton as a winger. Mourinho was much more pro-active with changes in-game, personnel or formation, whereas Ole seems to dither longer (or have more patience, whichever you prefer).

Mourinho would have been absolutely slaughtered for this start to the season. No question. By everyone on here and all the pundits (especially the old United boys). Now we are talking about Ole inheriting Mourinho's mess and it's still Jose's fault that Ole isn't managing to get better performances. Pretty crazy IMV. At no point in time would people have even dared suggesting Mourinho would need 4-5 windows to compete. But that was the reality then and it's the reality now, problem being that again, different type of managers with different types of ideas (though we've yet to really see what ideas Ole wants to implement other than energy and counter attack).

The main problem, by far, is the ownership of the club and the way they run the club. Everything else is a consequence of that. But they seem to have found a new scapegoat who so far has been nothing but willing to put a positive spin on everything.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I think he's probably realised what his predecessors realised before him - if you try and play attacking football with these turnips, you're going to get stung quite badly. For all the shit Jose got about his overly defensive style, I could sort of see why we did it. The fact none of them did anything about it is another argument, so let's see if Ole can.

Or we can just hire a proven manager with a positive style of football?

 

[Steerpike]

"Looking to win games without the use of the football"...???

I thought we had dominated the possession in our last 3 games (58%, 71% and 66%). Only Chelsea have enjoyed the balance of possession against us - we had 46% - but that perhaps had more to do with their purposeless passing in non-dangerous areas.

Perhaps if we reallly are "loooking to win games without the use of the football", we should encourage our players to squander possession more often (in which case, Pogba was brilliant in the first half today).

 

[passing-wind]

One of the wierdest threads I've read here which sums up the hysteria of this place today. Strange suggestions that counter attacking can't work with a high press and another querying why we play 4.2.3.1 when a different manager with different players didn't win with it.. Maybe everyone just needs to get whatever nonsense is in their head out this evening so we can go back to making sense tomorrow

Cracking insight just lovely

If you win the ball further up the pitch, your not pressing for a counter your pressing for mistakes to gain possession. The opposition need to sit deeper to recover their spaces positionally along with defensive shape. That's already 40% of the available space retracted. Its tactically inept to play counter attacking football with a high press, when you consider how bad we are in possession it makes it even worse. The goals we scored against Chelsea in transition of defence to attack came from inside our own half.

 

[2 man midfield]

Or we can just hire a proven manager with a positive style of football?

Who though?

 

[Captain Paris]

Whether you think Ole has been given enough support by the board or not is irrelevant to what's happening on the pitch. I often read that that the quality of football is better thant under Jose which is false.

Th way we play is so uninspired, we lack everything going forward. I don't want to go back to the days of LVG's philosophy but I want to see a style of play. "Counter-attack" is not a style of play. The way we play you think he just tell the players get the ball and run fast. As we've seen since last season, this is not a tactic that works against deep blocks. In the last 3 games, he has been tactically exposed.

I believe that he made the switch to a 4231 because he wanted an additional attacking player but if that player is either Lingard, Pereira or Mata, don't bother.

I'll admit I've seen glimpses of good football but there are exceptions rather than the ordinary and the coaching staff has to take responsability.

 

[passing-wind]

"Looking to win games without the use of the football"...???

I thought we had dominated the possession in our last 3 games (58%, 71% and 66%). Only Chelsea have enjoyed the balance of possession against us - we had 46% - but that perhaps had more to do with their purposeless passing in non-dangerous areas.

Perhaps if we reallly are "loooking to win games without the use of the football", we should encourage our players to squander possession more often (in which case, Pogba was brilliant in the first half today).

Rewatch Mourinhos comments on sky sports also Solskjaer interview, Ole said against Wolves and Palace that despite possession we didn't control the game. Having possession of the ball doesn't quantify being competent with the ball, you can see in our phases of play the players often look clueless. It's even more concerning when watching live at grounds you can see how nullified individual players are receptive to creating spaces, dropping off, shaping patterns (triangles) etc.

What's more telling is that we struggle when we are required to dictate play and exceed when we are needless to possession, that's why we got the result against Chelsea.

If I'm a manager playing against Solskjaer I will give united the entirety of 75 mins to keep possession because as long as a team can sit deep we are unable to break them down. Wait for a counter, target one of Shaw or Lindlelof arieally and nick a goal. The end. This is the blueprint mid table clubs will use against us if we don't see more dynamics from the team.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

One of the wierdest threads I've read here which sums up the hysteria of this place today. Strange suggestions that counter attacking can't work with a high press and another querying why we play 4.2.3.1 when a different manager with different players didn't win with it.. Maybe everyone just needs to get whatever nonsense is in their head out this evening so we can go back to making sense tomorrow

Don't hold your breath.

Whether we play 433 or 4231, we're going to have issues because we haven't got the players for either.

Whatever it is though, I just wish we'd pass the ball quicker. We've got fast players (James, Rashford, Martial (when fit)) but man, we're so fecking slow and cautious in the centre of the pitch.

 

[Steerpike]

Rewatch Mourinhos comments on sky sports also Solskjaer interview, Ole said against Wolves and Palace that despite possession we didn't control the game. Having possession of the ball doesn't quantify being competent with the ball, you can see in our phases of play the players often look clueless. It's even more concerning when watching live at grounds you can see how nullified individual players are receptive to creating spaces, dropping off, shaping patterns (triangles) etc.

What's more telling is that we struggle when we are required to dictate play and exceed when we are needless to possession, that's why we got the result against Chelsea.

If I'm a manager playing against Solskjaer I will give united the entirety of 75 mins to keep possession because as long as a team can sit deep we are unable to break them down. Wait for a counter, target one of Shaw or Lindlelof arieally and nick a goal. The end. This is the blueprint mid table clubs will use against us if we don't see more dynamics from the team.

Against Wolves in the first half, we certainly did control the game. Had we made better use of the chances we created, we would have won it easily. Wolves enjoyed a spell of about 20 minutes where they were on top, and scored during that period. We were on top for about 70 minutes, but only scored once (and missed a penalty as well). We weren't incompetent with the ball, but we also weren't clinical with our chances (I worry that neither Martial nor Rashford are natural predators in front of goal).

The Palace and Southampton games were more worrying in that we didn't fashion the chances we should have done with the possession we had. In addition to the lack of a natural goalscorer with the instincts to consistently get into the right places, I think the quality of our crossing leaves a lot to be desired. Just put those things right, and we would be winning these games handsomely.

Ole isn't looking to win the game without the ball, he wants the team to dominate possession, but also to be quick on the counter attack when the opportunity arises. This is different to Jose who really did focus mainly on the counter attack and set pieces, and wasn't especially concerned with possession. Louis Van Gaal was of course at the other extreme - possession was everything, even if it often looked (and was) slow and purposeless.

 

[RedSky]

Ah yes Van Gaal saying its defensive football. I remember his terrific last season of attacking football which resulted in 46 goals, which was the lowest goals scored record for us in our PL history. He actually had the lowest and 4th lowest goal score total so I guess he's got a good idea of what shite attacking football really is.

46 goals | 15-16 - LvG
54 goals | 16-17 - Jose
58 goals | 04-05 - Sir Alex
60 goals | 14-15 - LvG
63 goals | 13-14 - Moyes

It also wouldn't surprise me if his 430 shots in 15-16 is a record either as all over seasons I looked at we had more than 500 in the season total.

 

[Foxbatt]

For LVG what is the conversion ratio on shots on goals?

 

[Sterling Archer]

Ah yes Van Gaal saying its defensive football. I remember his terrific last season of attacking football which resulted in 46 goals, which was the lowest goals scored record for us in our PL history. He actually had the lowest and 4th lowest goal score total so I guess he's got a good idea of what shite attacking football really is.

46 goals | 15-16 - LvG
54 goals | 16-17 - Jose
58 goals | 04-05 - Sir Alex
60 goals | 14-15 - LvG
63 goals | 13-14 - Moyes

It also wouldn't surprise me if his 430 shots in 15-16 is a record either as all over seasons I looked at we had more than 500 in the season total.

who the feck cares how LVG played? Thats irrelevant to him comparing Jose and Ole's style.

 

[eire-red]

Pogba - Matic - Scott

is better than

Pogba - Scott

You don't have to rate Matic but it's far more balanced.

If he is not playing Matic because he cannot get around as much, Ole needs to realise that he has to take that into account and bite that bullet so we can get more out of the midfield and Pogba and Scott. We have energy and legs for the sake of having energy and legs. It's not working.

Agree with this. 3 man midfield with McTominay - Matic - Pogba or Fred - Matic - Pogba seems much more balanced. As much as I hate to see Matic in there, he adds balance to the team and releases Pogba. Shackeling Pobga in a 2 man midfield and expecting him to put in the defensive work and also be our main creator is just not working at the moment. I don't want to absolve him of his poor performances, but why buy a Rolls Royce and only ever drive it in first gear?

Pogba looks like a player who feels like he has to create something every time he gets the ball, and his propensity to dwell on the ball means he's getting caught in tight positions all the time. He's a completely different player when running at defences with options ahead of him, instead of receiving the ball deep facing goal, and expected to turn and get us move up the pitch.

Getting Lingard out of the No. 10 position is also a big plus with the 4-3-3, he brings nothing to the team. Get Pogba and Martial as close together as possible in the final third, they seem to often be on the same wavelength. Rashford out left to make those out-to-in runs, also he has more space to utilise his pace. Or James on the left and Rashford/take your pick of Mata, Lingard, Greenwood or Chong on the right. Wouldn't even mind seeing Dalot playing RM, he can at least beat a man and cross, and has a good engine to get up and down the pitch.

What we are doing now really isn't working, something needs to change.

 

[Foxbatt]

Spot on Eire red. Dalot seems a good option to play on the right as he can cross, has good pace and can defend too. Play James on the left, Martial as CF and drop Rashford to the bench to see how it goes. Play Matic and Scott in midfield with Pogba pushed further forward.

 

[AshRK]

I don't think our football has been that bad like many are saying. We are just failing to make use of some of the good attacks which you will see teams like liverpool or city punish other teams. Lack.of quality is killing us.

 

[hobbers]

Ole and Mourinho similarities:

Low block
2 sitting midfielders
Pogba playing deep, high defensive responsibility
Wingers high defensive responsibility
Lack of creativity against defensive sides
Team only looks capable of scoring on the counter


Differences:

Higher press
Prefers forwards with more energy

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I would agree.

Remove the manager's names, the only real difference is we're a bit higher up the field when not in possession. We still rely too much on individualism.

Our pressing that was so evident in pre-season has slowly evaporated throughout the season(would love to see the PPDA stat for our games).

 

[tenpoless]

"Players aren't fit enough, need more time to work on their fitness level."

Yeah, They're all fecking ugly.

 

[fallengt]

Need to work on that fitness.
Can't blame our players. Poor them, they only get paid few millions a year. What the feck Woodward doing?

 

[el3mel]

People think just because we press up front a bit more it means we are attacking.

Any manager can tell his players to press upfront. It's not rocket science or something to wow about as some make it out to be.

Ole has no style at all. The team is just running and pressing a bit up front and that is about it. You can't point a single tactical thing being done on the pitch bar that, so of course we struggle against any well packed defense as we are clueless.

 

[Sky1981]

At least with jose we have a few tactical wins against Chelsea and ajax where our tactics is spot on for the course.

Ole seems to be scratching his head as what to instruct, what sort of phylosophy, and the finer details

It took more than "play fast, move the ball faster boys" to make one play a good football.

When i see players like henry analizing football as much as maybe it's all jsut bullshit but the depth of tactical nous is displayed there.

Where to pass, triangles, where to cut in, who to mark, who to cover, etc. Its all on the details that separates a great manager and a charlatan.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Van Gaal was correct. This is not attacking football. Telling the players who smile, press a bit and attack with speed is not really attacking football, when you're unable control the game, dominate the opposition and spend half the game playing with little cohesion and assertion over the opposition.

All I see from us is running, and a desire to hit teams with fast attacks. There's no great passing interplay, cohesive plan or domination of the opponent. All in all, we don't look a well managed attacking team. We look a team trying to put a few ideas together which are more attacking than other teams.

In the Chelsea game, they were more attacking than us. We countered if anything becuase we couldn't live with their possession play. Wolves and Palace love to sit back so we played on the front foot (and not too well). Against Southampton their football was more fluid than ours and it was an even game. Being a team with big resources we usually have more of the ball. But nothing about us screams out that we are a proper ATTACKING team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It took more than "play fast, move the ball faster boys" to make one play a good football.

.

Yes. That's it. Run fast. Play with intensity. United way.

That's all Ole is offering. There's no real tactical or managerial excellence. He wont succeed if this is the extent of his guidance and coaching.

 

[Sky1981]

Even football manager knows that possession doesnt work with counterattack.

If you choose one the other is disabled.

 

[In Rainbows]

Van Gaal was correct. This is not attacking football. Telling the players who smile, press a bit and attack with speed is not really attacking football, when you're unable control the game, dominate the opposition and spend half the game playing with little cohesion and assertion over the opposition.

All I see from us is running, and a desire to hit teams with fast attacks. There's no great passing interplay, cohesive plan or domination of the opponent. All in all, we don't look a well managed attacking team. We look a team trying to put a few ideas together which are more attacking than other teams.

In the Chelsea game, they were more attacking than us. We countered if anything becuase we couldn't live with their possession play. Wolves and Palace love to sit back so we played on the front foot (and not too well). Against Southampton their football was more fluid than ours and it was an even game. Being a team with big resources we usually have more of the ball. But nothing about us screams out that we are a proper ATTACKING team.

Well said.

Still, there are two holes in the team which is the two pivots to compliment our one good midfielder. If Ole doesn't show urgency in this area and doesn't have the confidence to try different players for these positions, we're going to suffer all season long. You have to try Garner, Gomes, Levitt, and Fred. Use all your players/chances to land 1 useful player. Can't keep rolling with players that are guaranteed to fail. Pereira was an option, but he's been tried and failed horrendously. He's out.

We have no other internal options.

 

[passing-wind]

The main problem, by far, is the ownership of the club and the way they run the club. Everything else is a consequence of that. But they seem to have found a new scapegoat who so far has been nothing but willing to put a positive spin on everything.

That's very true, there's definitely a correlation between the hierarchy and what we are seeing. Phelan was the only individual among the coaching team to be concerned about the pyramid scheme above his head.

 

[passing-wind]

People think just because we press up front a bit more it means we are attacking.

Any manager can tell his players to press upfront. It's not rocket science or something to wow about as some make it out to be.

Ole has no style at all. The team is just running and pressing a bit up front and that is about it. You can't point a single tactical thing being done on the pitch bar that, so of course we struggle against any well packed defense as we are clueless.

I don't want to be too brunt for the usual red tinted spectacle janitors who complain regarding any critical threads but this relays heavily with my perspective.

 

[passing-wind]

Even football manager knows that possession doesnt work with counterattack.

If you choose one the other is disabled.

Some common sense

Jenas is a rubbish biased pundit but his comments on MOTD are correct we are a half chances team. Last season we scored half chances and this season we are relying on the same thing. The reason is because we are poor in possession, there's a creativity issue with this team and it's not something that the players are totally liable for.