Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2020/21 Discussion

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It wasn't great the whole way through, but at times, we played some decent quick stuff through a compact defence. Hardly anything I would bet my house on, but it was a welcomed change over the consistent slow, lethargic football we play

Granted, I didn't catch the first half, I tuned in towards the end of the first half, so can't comment on that.
That's interesting.

The first half was quite poor and we were very shaky at the back at times. I think it's coloured our perception of the whole game.

The performance was definitely better second half and there was only ever going to be one winner, barring an absolute howler.

I've seen posters claim Newcastle dominated us or were 'in control' which is nonsense.
 

simmee

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I really really wanted him to succeed here but I just don't see it. We defend as individuals and attack as individuals. We concede the same goals as we've always done under Ole and we struggle against the same kind of opposition. Pay top money for the players but put newly graduates in the management positions, who runs a business likes that?
 

MattofManchester

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I'm beginning to have serious doubts over how far he can take us from this point.

It seems like we've hit a bit of a wall.
 

Cast5

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Won 3-1 last night and look at the last 4 posts, incredible really. Win, lose or draw, It doesn’t matter to them anymore, talk about “tedious”
 

united_99

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Difficult congested season, playing in several competitions, hardly any time on the training pitch, playing against a rested team just 3 days after an European away game, without McT, Pogba and Cavani (I am not including VdB as he hardly plays anyway), but again it seems people believe United exist in a vacuum where the current difficult situation shouldn’t affect us.

It was a professional performance yesterday, we got the job done. Nothing more, nothing less. Liverpool, Arsenal, Leicester, PSG, Barca, Milan, us all struggled in their leagues at the weekend after playing in Europe. We are one of the few teams who at least got the job done.
 

anant

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The interesting thing here is that in our "poor form" run starting post Burnley game, we've the 2nd best xG, and the 3rd/4th best xGA.

You can say that some of these wins have been unconvincing, but the point is that relative to our competitors we're doing quite well.
 

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I'm beginning to have serious doubts over how far he can take us from this point.

It seems like we've hit a bit of a wall.
Is it a question of how far Ole can take us, or a question of how far this current squad can take us? Lets not forget we were missing 4 key players last night in Cavani, Pogba, McTomminay and Bailly. At least we won. Christ, Liverpool cry from the roof tops when they have half their team out, at least we have a bigger squad, and can grind out wins.

Lets see where we are when we have better players. It's no coincidence City are better when Dias is in their line up, Liverpool when VVD is in their line up.

Lets not forget, last summer we only really strengthened in 1 key area on the pitch and that was at CF. The other signings were backups. We're due a big summer in the transfer market, that similar to when we brought in AWB, Maguire & James.

So lets see where we are when we have better players. Foolish to question how far a manager can take us when we have an inferior squad to the only team higher in the league. Its as clear as day that we need a top CB to partner Maguire, we could do with a world class DM. Add that to the top scoring team in the PL, and we're well on course to bridge the gap.
 

Mickson

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Did we score any goals last night whilst on the counter?

I can't imagine how it feels to be disappointed every time we score and win games.
We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
 

Matt851

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Is it a question of how far Ole can take us, or a question of how far this current squad can take us? Lets not forget we were missing 4 key players last night in Cavani, Pogba, McTomminay and Bailly. At least we won. Christ, Liverpool cry from the roof tops when they have half their team out, at least we have a bigger squad, and can grind out wins.

Lets see where we are when we have better players. It's no coincidence City are better when Dias is in their line up, Liverpool when VVD is in their line up.

Lets not forget, last summer we only really strengthened in 1 key area on the pitch and that was at CF. The other signings were backups. We're due a big summer in the transfer market, that similar to when we brought in AWB, Maguire & James.

So lets see where we are when we have better players. Foolish to question how far a manager can take us when we have an inferior squad to the only team higher in the league. Its as clear as day that we need a top CB to partner Maguire, we could do with a world class DM. Add that to the top scoring team in the PL, and we're well on course to bridge the gap.
He isn't even playing the best players at his disposal and we don't appear to coached at all. We have now struggled against all the relegation candidates and obviously didnt win against shef utd and west brom

You say we are due a big summer in the transfer market but indications point to a restricted budget this summer so I don't think thats going to happen

I can see how buying new players would improve us but replacing ole with a better coach would be the single most impactful thing we could do
 

Zlatan 7

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Thank god we have the individual brilliance of Dan James. Lucky there
 

crossy1686

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Can you please list teams that scores goals based on a pattern of play and that don't rely on the individual ability of certain players?
 

Zen86

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I really really wanted him to succeed here but I just don't see it. We defend as individuals and attack as individuals. We concede the same goals as we've always done under Ole and we struggle against the same kind of opposition. Pay top money for the players but put newly graduates in the management positions, who runs a business likes that?
Our attack has been a bit flat for some time on and off, and our backline is a big issue at the moment, but we're 2nd in the league so it obviously isn't that bad.
 

anant

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
The issue with the "individual brilliance" logic is that nearly goal can be attributed to that.

Ole's winner vs Bayern - Individual brilliance as he was at the right place at the right time
Bruno's goal vs BHA last season for 3-1 - Matic's brilliance with that pass
Any tap-in goal - striker's brilliance in losing the marker/ making a smart run
ASM goal yesterday - individual brilliance for reacting first and slotting it perfectly at the top corner despite ball bouncing a second before he hit it
 

Zlatan 7

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Can you please list teams that scores goals based on a pattern of play and that don't rely on the individual ability of certain players?
I’d also like to see the pattern of play before the goal explained. If people are so obsessed that our goals comes without patterns of play show me these patterns other teams use before goals and you actually understand them. Can imagine this being quite funny.

Apart from Man City’s get to the byline and cut it back or Liverpool’s get it to the full back and play a diagonal I wonder what people are going to present
 

jackal&hyde

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Been hearing this for a year yet we score the most goals in the league. We must have the reincarnation of Messi and Ronaldo in the team to only do that on individual brilliance.
 

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Seriously this is funny at this stage. You basically think luck has a team (almost in March!) as top scorers in the league, in the most competitive league in Europe, in which two of the best managers on earth are competing.

If you think us outscoring the great Pep and Klopp has nothing whatsoever to do with coaching and 'patterns of play' that so many bang on about then you will never be happy with a manager.
 
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simmee

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Our attack has been a bit flat for some time on and off, and our backline is a big issue at the moment, but we're 2nd in the league so it obviously isn't that bad.
I agree of course and it has been an OK season overall (factoring in both PL and CL). But something just feels off. We haven't really developed anything about our play, we've just improved our squad. We still look extremely lost trying to build up from the back and same when we reach the offensive third to be honest, don't you think?
 

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Seriously this is funny at this stage. You basically think luck has a team (almost in March!) as top scorers in the league, in the most competitive league in Europe.

If you think us outscoring the great Pep and Klopp has nothing whatsoever to do with coaching and 'patterns of play' that so many bang on about then you will never be happy with a manager.
Of course not. We have one of the best squads in the league, and we win games because we have better players than almost every team. It's not rocket science. However, some teams don't rely on individual performances and have a pattern of play. The most significant examples: Man City, Liverpool, Leeds, Brighton, and Southampton. You can see how the managers there have changed their style and how they build up to create a system. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ole didn't succeed at Cardiff, because he seems to build his teams around players rather than philosophy, and when you have a worse squad than everybody, you are going to lose most games. Brighton completely outplayed ut, because they had a clear system and an idea. United still managed to win in the end, because of margins and because we have better individuals that can win you games. If Potter had managed United and Ole Brighton, then United would have won that game 5-0. Some people here seem to think it's just something out of the blue, that experts are saying that United doesn't have patterns and that one of the biggest thread starts is the one that is named "We are an awfully coached team". Like we have an agenda. People don't seem to think that... maybe Ole isn't very good at just that? I have nothing against Ole, I judge him as I judge everyone else. I just don't think he is doing that good regarding how we actually play.
 
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rotherham_red

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So how long is he expected to wait then
Well, if Bailly could stay fit he'd be there every week. The club and management know that Lindelof isn't the one in the long-term or even the short-term, but we really don't have much choice because the other two options we have in that position are just so unreliable. Just look at Bailly's last injury ffs! Who else gets injured in the act of literally driving himself to training? The one time this season that Bailly kept himself fit, he had a run in the side. It's not a coincidence.
 

rotherham_red

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I agree of course and it has been an OK season overall (factoring in both PL and CL). But something just feels off. We haven't really developed anything about our play, we've just improved our squad. We still look extremely lost trying to build up from the back and same when we reach the offensive third to be honest, don't you think?
Most teams who are in European competition haven't done that though. We don't really have that time to work on the training ground when we're playing a game every 2, 3, or 4 days. I think the only time we had a week off was in January (and even that might be wrong), otherwise it's been a solid two games per week every week. City and Pep have looked a million bucks ever since they got their 10 day rest because of Covid, and it's not exactly a coincidence to me at least why that was the case.

On the latter emboldened, I think you're letting recency bias colour your perceptions. We displayed both of those facets in our play at numerous points in the run we had from November up to Sheffield Utd at home. Look at Cavani's goal in the League Cup v Everton, or Bruno's against Leicester in the league where the moves started off with a line splitting pass from a CB. We're also the league's highest scorers, so it seems we're doing something right in the offensive third too.
 

RUCK4444

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Of course not. We have one of the best squads in the league, and we win games because we have better players than almost every team. It's not rocket science. However, some teams don't rely on individual performances and have a pattern of play. The most significant examples: Man City, Liverpool, Leeds, Brighton, and Southampton. You can see how the managers there have changed their style and how they build up to create a system. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ole didn't succeed at Cardiff, because he seems to build his teams around players rather than philosophy, and when you have a worse squad than everybody, you are going to lose most games. Brighton completely outplayed ut, because they had a clear system and an idea. United still managed to win in the end, because of margins and because we have better individuals that can win you games. If Potter had managed United and Ole Brighton, then United would have won that game 5-0.
Sorry totally disagree. If you do not have any 'style' or any type of philosophy then you simply do not compete at the top of this league, you simply do not score the amount we have already (that's not allowing for the absurd amount of missed chances in almost every game we play with our forwards being off form this season.)

Without any philosophy or implementation of A) how we structure our attacks B) how we setup when out of possession C) how we press teams - then you simply don't score as many as we have and you don't create as many chances as we do.

Look at Liverpool right now. Their attack ripped this league apart last season now they can barely score or create, this league does not allow you to score through having quality players alone. You have to be exceptionally well drilled and have the confidence instilled by the manager to express yourselves in order to be top scorers in this league at this stage.

Also the 'one of the best squads in the league' argument isn't really valid here. We are talking about a season where Martial has scored 2 goals all season and has been feckin woeful. We still have no right winger. Greenwood has scored a paltry amount. To overcome that and share the goals throughout the team takes coaching especially and is testament to that.
 

Skåre Willoch

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
We won 3-1 and had 70% possession. We dominated the ball for large parts of the game, and in the end a win for us was the only realistic outcome.
Even though we didn't create enough to call it a confident win, we still won deservedly.
Newcastle threatened us, and our defense was shambles at times, but we weren't extremely poor. The first half was bad, the second half was good. That doesn't add up to extremely poor at all.
Not as good as we hoped for, but not as bad as some paint it. 3-1 in a congested part of the season with key players missing. I'll take that!

And this is not about "defending Ole". This is about trying to analyze the game in a relatively neutral and objective way, without either defending or attacking Ole. You should try to do the same! :)

Also, why isn't setting up players to create moments of magic concidered a pattern of play?!
I mean, it happens a lot, due to specific instructions, runs, passes and movement, in almost every game we play.
It's not like it's just the players thinking "Bah, since we're so poorly coached, I'm just going to try and win this on my own"?!
Luke and Marcus have been doing this since the start of the season, with Shaw underlapping (?) to create space and attracting defenders for Marcus to be able to create something for himself or others in the box.
This way we also manage retain possession of the ball for extended periods of time in the opposition box, which is largely the reason for us getting as many penalties as we do. ,
It's not accidental, it's a strategy.

If people stopped just getting on the buzz word train to criticize both the coaching and the players (now it's "patterns of play" and "individual brilliance"), and start actually trying to analyze our style of play instead, they would be quite surprised by how consistent some of our patterns actually are.
 

simmee

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Most teams who are in European competition haven't done that though. We don't really have that time to work on the training ground when we're playing a game every 2, 3, or 4 days. I think the only time we had a week off was in January (and even that might be wrong), otherwise it's been a solid two games per week every week. City and Pep have looked a million bucks ever since they got their 10 day rest because of Covid, and it's not exactly a coincidence to me at least why that was the case.

On the latter emboldened, I think you're letting recency bias colour your perceptions. We displayed both of those facets in our play at numerous points in the run we had from November up to Sheffield Utd at home. Look at Cavani's goal in the League Cup v Everton, or Bruno's against Leicester in the league where the moves started off with a line splitting pass from a CB. We're also the league's highest scorers, so it seems we're doing something right in the offensive third too.
Fair point regarding time to work on the training ground. A bit first level thinking from me not taking that in to account.

I agree that we've seen some signs of development but not really enough IMO. But I guess that can be tied to amount of time on the training ground as well of course.
 

Listar

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
We are the top goal scorer in the league this season and all of them are from individual brilliance. Imagine If we have a legendary striker as our manager instead of Ole and we will have more goals than the whole league combined.
 

crossy1686

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Of course not. We have one of the best squads in the league, and we win games because we have better players than almost every team. It's not rocket science. However, some teams don't rely on individual performances and have a pattern of play. The most significant examples: Man City, Liverpool, Leeds, Brighton, and Southampton. You can see how the managers there have changed their style and how they build up to create a system. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ole didn't succeed at Cardiff, because he seems to build his teams around players rather than philosophy, and when you have a worse squad than everybody, you are going to lose most games. Brighton completely outplayed ut, because they had a clear system and an idea. United still managed to win in the end, because of margins and because we have better individuals that can win you games. If Potter had managed United and Ole Brighton, then United would have won that game 5-0.
We actually have the 3rd or 2nd best team in the league and look where we are in said league? Even in saying that, we have serious issues in some departments, like CF and CB, maybe even DM and RW. Are you suggesting a change in the style of play would fix these issues? Or are you suggesting new players being brought in to play those roles would help us develop a more coherent style of play?

Take De Byrne out of City, TAA and Robertson out of Liverpool, Phillips out of Leeds and Ings out of Southampton and we'll see how well their philosophy holds up. Brighton are languishing at the bottom end of the table, Leeds regularly get hammered and Southampton haven't won a game in months due to missing first team players so how well does your style of play argument hold up there? Do you think the teams mentioned don't want better players or do you think they're content with what they have? Would they turn down Bruno and Rashford in the name of 'philosophy'?

The reality is there's only one winner in football and it's the team that has the best players 9 times out of 10.

Your argument doesn't stack up. It's a lazy way of saying "I'm spoiled and I want us to play pretty football all the time so no one can criticise my team".
 

Jonno

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We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Are you regarding Dan James as brilliance? Are we relying on world class Dan James to see us through games? Or are there patterns of play there? You know... like Matic and Maguire starting attacks from the back, with long, decisive passing, Shaw overlapping, our wingers getting on the ball as much as possible to cause problems, surely that's "patterns of play". I see our wingers causing problems, specifically our left hand side, most games. They're being coached to do that on a daily basis. Literally the definition of "patterns of play".

Doesn't every team score goals based on individual brilliance, or luck? We were sh!te last night, but we were clinical and won the game comfortably in the end. Cancel Rooneys overhead kick against City. It doesn't count, why? Because Scholes and Rooney were lucky to string the passes together before Nani's cross which was deflected into Rooneys pass. Individual brilliance rather than "patterns of play"..... Give your head a wobble.

Your dislike for Solskjaer is blinding your ability to watch football for what it is.
 

90 + 5min

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I really really wanted him to succeed here but I just don't see it. We defend as individuals and attack as individuals. We concede the same goals as we've always done under Ole and we struggle against the same kind of opposition. Pay top money for the players but put newly graduates in the management positions, who runs a business likes that?
You don't need to see. Just follow us who knows what we are doing.

I'm beginning to have serious doubts over how far he can take us from this point.

It seems like we've hit a bit of a wall.
You are writing this after a new win and being 2nd in table?

A genuine question, as I can't see it right now. What are we good at except counter-attacking?
Tell me ratio of counter attacking goals versus other goals.

We scored goals thanks to individual brilliance, there was no particular pattern of play that led to that. It was just Rashford pulling something out of the hat. We barely created anything during the whole game and yet again we overproduced. It will however end, as we have seen lately too. We are relying on fine margins rather than dominating. We were extremely poor yesterday and deep inside everyone knows that even though some just need to defend Ole.
Sorry but that is nonsense. This obsession of patterns. Tell me patterns of other teams? I'm willing to hear.

Let me explain. Yesterday, ManCity scored early goal. Mahrez beat his guy and put a nice floating cross where a short player, Sterling, outjumps everybody and scores goal. Is this individuall brilliance or is this a team goal? Every goal that is scored have some brilliance to it. Does this mean that Guardiola is not responsible for this and it is only down to Sterlings jump?

Let me take another example. Is every "big" team in every country just brilliant teams that don't rely on top players that show moment of brilliance. Is Juventus same with or without Ronaldo, Barcelona with Messi, Bayern with Lewandowski, PSG with Mbappe?
 

kode

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Ole choices are at times baffling and i wonder how do the players see it? Bailly /Lindeloef DDG/Henderson, what is the point of playing well if you wont be first choice
 

Skåre Willoch

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Ole choices are at times baffling and i wonder how do the players see it? Bailly /Lindeloef DDG/Henderson, what is the point of playing well if you wont be first choice
What? :lol: You think the players should think "I won't be first choice, so why bother playing well"?
Bailly is perma crocked and plays well at times. He's as mistake prone as any player we've ever had, even though his ceiling is higher than Lindelöfs.
DDG needs dropping, I agree, but do you rememeber the last time Hendo played in the PL? It didn't do him any favors. But who knows, maybe he just though "why bother, I won't cement my place anyway."
 

bondsname

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He should tell the players to do everything to avoid clearing the ball for a corner, and keep tactical fouls to a minimum. We can’t defend set pieces.

Also tell Fred he should never use his right-foot again.
 

Delano

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He should tell the players to do everything to avoid clearing the ball for a corner, and keep tactical fouls to a minimum. We can’t defend set pieces.

Also tell Fred he should never use his right-foot again.
And never shoot again.
 

SirAF

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I'm beginning to have serious doubts over how far he can take us from this point.

It seems like we've hit a bit of a wall.
My biggest fear with OGS is that he's potentially good enough to keep United in the top 4, thus keeping his job, but not good enough to win trophies on a regular basis.

Time will tell though. He's been very good with player logistics.
 

Zen86

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I agree of course and it has been an OK season overall (factoring in both PL and CL). But something just feels off. We haven't really developed anything about our play, we've just improved our squad. We still look extremely lost trying to build up from the back and same when we reach the offensive third to be honest, don't you think?
I actually think our general play has developed; we're a completely different team to what we were last year and we generally assert more control in games than we have done previously. However, this has been offset by an out of form frontline and a defence which is habitually shipping simple goals.

A lot of the points we've dropped recently can be attributed to stupid mistakes at the back, the Maguire-Lindelof-De Gea dynamic just isn't working. Even though the attack hasn't been firing, they've done enough to win these games and conceding daft goals is what has let us down.