Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2020/21 Discussion

NZT-One

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
76
Location
Berlin
If we sign Van Dijk and Allison we might.

My point about him needing the players still stands. For all their good football that season, Liverpool still only managed to finish 4th. The football couldn't have been that good considering they dropped so many points.
There are quite a few threads right now suggesting that we should add 1st teamers on around 3-5 positions... So the idea of getting 2 starters in to challenge for a point record is very very optimistic, don't you think? I know you didn't meant it like that but if we start to consider all scenarios and their outcome then it would be an even more open door to invide speculations where we could have been with another manager.
How would a good CB help us by creating chances? The notion, that we could get away then easier without the need to play Fred and McTominay is... pretty simple, isn't it. Liverpool, while having VD and Allison employed three workhorses in midfield most of the time. With Fabinho even one who has his major strength in a DM role. They defend as a team, that obviously helps their CBs as well. Its not just sticking a good player in there and leave him to "do his job" while the rest of the team now "finally is able to focus on attack and play the great football they are meant to play". If we want to accept ManUnited to be, in contrast to a possession-based team, a transition-based team, we have to emphasize on that. Transitions btw work in both directions and I will be very curious to see us transition to defense when Bruno and Pogba get caught high up the field.
Let's see, how this seasons turns out until we talk about the 4th finish of Liverpool. What we know is, that last season while having the offense in way better conditions and form, it took us to the last matchday to reach that glorious 3rd place. A simple bad ref call, a deflected shot, an own goal. All that could have led to us getting 4th or even 5th (iirc). That's why the points total are relevant pretty much. The league position doesn't do more than telling you about your own accomplishments in relation to the other teams. It tells you if your results have been better than the results of another team, it doesn't tell you whether the results are "good".

It's funny to see that quite a few around here still follow the thought that good results = good football. There is no linear connection. Over a few seasons good football will mostly end in good results: probably yes. In one season... difficult but maybe debatable. In a single game surely not.
We seem to be close to a full circle, now debating how good of a job Tuchel has done by getting good results and showing improvements on a few major metrics, but criticizing the dull football, while in other threads around here people have to defend themselves against accusations of bad fanhood when it is pointed out that while having mostly good results, the performances lack for our own team.
 

OmarUnited4ever

Full Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
264
Location
Malaysia
They lost the guy that glued them all together. Another great player. Claude Makelele.
Yes, they lost Makelele and also didn't have a competent Manager as well.

Anyway, the point is for the team to succeed or have a continued success, you need a great manager (or at least a manager that can maximize the full potential of the squad) and great players.

As for Ole, eventhough I am on the fence regarding his managerial ability, I still think the squad still lacks 3-4 quality players (RW, ST, DM, CB).
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
3,006
.
Yes but our less possessive game was our best came and most controlled game. So it doesn’t prove what my actual point was. Chelsea controlled their games we didn’t. I mean come on. We are United fans we watched our matches. We wasn’t entertaining at all. The West Ham game was as bad as Palace.
No it wasn't as bad and I'm not sure how anyone watched that West ham game and didn't think Man United controlled it.

Anyway Chelseas Tuchel certainly weren't boring today.
 

Mainoldo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
17,513
.
No it wasn't as bad and I'm not sure how anyone watched that West ham game and didn't think Man United controlled it.

Anyway Chelseas Tuchel certainly weren't boring today.
Controlled? West Ham sat back and made us come on to them. Hoping we wouldn’t have a club how to break them down.

Yeah the Chelsea game was alright.. pretty much secures top 4 if we win tomorrow.
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
3,006
Controlled? West Ham sat back and made us come on to them. Hoping we wouldn’t have a club how to break them down.

Yeah the Chelsea game was alright.. pretty much secures top 4 if we win tomorrow.
Wasn't much different to the way West Ham played against Man City away at the end of February. Both Man United and City had over 60% possession and created more or less the same amount of goal scoring chances against Moyes side.
 

Mainoldo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
17,513
Wasn't much different to the way West Ham played against Man City away at the end of February. Both Man United and City had over 60% possession and created more or less the same amount of goal scoring chances against Moyes side.
Wasnt the same at all except for possession. You sure you watched the game or you just go and who scored the stats and decided to write about it?
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
3,006
Wasnt the same at all except for possession. You sure you watched the game or you just go and who scored the stats and decided to write about it?
Yes watched both matches live.

Simliar not the same as West ham scored against City and had a few other chances to score a 2nd goal. Both won by 1 goal margin but can make argument Man United was in more control at both ends of field against West Ham than City was.
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
273
When you write it like that it's almost as if the players you have available to you actually matters for results in football.

Maybe that can be applied to Manchester United as well?
Wijnaldum
Salah
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Andrew Robertson
Joel Matip

Really don’t get it. None of these signings were headline back pages signings, £120m for Sancho, type signings. Most didn’t even make the back pages, in fact paying £37m for Salah was ridiculed. On paper our signings have been much better than pools. So don’t twist it, if Liverpool didn’t win anything no one would have said Klopp signed world class players and flopped. As apart from Allison and VDD, who were signed after he proved himself at pool and showed a tangible need to spend big money on those two positions, all of those signings could easily have gone down as “let down by the board” at another club or even Liverpool if Klopp didn’t get a world class team out of those players.

Henderson was a meme player before Klopp arrived.
 

Olecurls99

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
266
Wijnaldum
Salah
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Andrew Robertson
Joel Matip

Really don’t get it. None of these signings were headline back pages signings, £120m for Sancho, type signings. Most didn’t even make the back pages, in fact paying £37m for Salah was ridiculed. On paper our signings have been much better than pools. So don’t twist it, if Liverpool didn’t win anything no one would have said Klopp signed world class players and flopped. As apart from Allison and VDD, who were signed after he proved himself at pool and showed a tangible need to spend big money on those two positions, all of those signings could easily have gone down as “let down by the board” at another club or even Liverpool if Klopp didn’t get a world class team out of those players.

Henderson was a meme player before Klopp arrived.
So I'm guessing from this you believe Ole needs to be backed by the board with 2 world class signings after proving himself thus far. Hopefully 2 top 4 finishes can be compared with Klopp's 2 4th places.
I know, I know the 4th placed football Klopp played was wondrous. They played amazing stuff on their way to not winning 17 league matches that year.

Add Sancho and Grealish to our squad and watch how the football becomes far more entertaining. Some will say it's because Ole has proven himself as an attacking coach on par with Pep and Klopp but common sense people will know.
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
273
So I'm guessing from this you believe Ole needs to be backed by the board with 2 world class signings after proving himself thus far. Hopefully 2 top 4 finishes can be compared with Klopp's 2 4th places.
I know, I know the 4th placed football Klopp played was wondrous. They played amazing stuff on their way to not winning 17 league matches that year.

Add Sancho and Grealish to our squad and watch how the football becomes far more entertaining. Some will say it's because Ole has proven himself as an attacking coach on par with Pep and Klopp but common sense people will know.
Didn’t the board back him with a world record £80m plus for a CB on Maguire? If with £80m plus, he can’t get a world class CB that’s not the boards fault.

What is becoming very annoying about Ole and the blind support for him is that everything is about 1) Signings and 2) quality signings have to cost £100m.
 

big rons sovereign

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
2,248
Didn’t the board back him with a world record £80m plus for a CB on Maguire? If with £80m plus, he can’t get a world class CB that’s not the boards fault.

What is becoming very annoying about Ole and the blind support for him is that everything is about 1) Signings and 2) quality signings have to cost £100m.
Are we still running with the narrative that the manager brokers the deals?
It's a ridiculous argument and completely baseless.
 

AneRu

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
1,592
Didn’t the board back him with a world record £80m plus for a CB on Maguire? If with £80m plus, he can’t get a world class CB that’s not the boards fault.

What is becoming very annoying about Ole and the blind support for him is that everything is about 1) Signings and 2) quality signings have to cost £100m.
I'd agree but the thing is we don't know who is pushing for which signing, we know Ole wanted Sancho but did he want VDB and Diallo? His use or non use of them says otherwise but those two set us back roughly £70m yet they have had zero impact on the first team.

I think Ole has done enough to show that when backed he can challenge but he has this worrying tendency of going into slumps of form at critical moments. My suggestion would be, give him what we can all see that he clearly needs on the pitch and assess over the next two seasons. If he holds on to top 4, this season, he certainly has earned it.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
1,874
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
Are we still running with the narrative that the manager brokers the deals?
It's a ridiculous argument and completely baseless.
Why is it completely baseless? Ole had to have known how much money the club were willing to give him on transfers. If he chose to spunk 130m on 2 defenders who don't really fit our system then that's on Ole. I'm not saying they're bad players but when you look at Leicester signing Peirera and Fofano for about the same price as AWB then surely questions have to be asked? Going the obvious route in signing £80-100m players may eventually win Ole trophies but how sustainable is that?
 

Jonno

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
8,314
Location
Preston, Lancashire
Why is it completely baseless? Ole had to have known how much money the club were willing to give him on transfers. If he chose to spunk 130m on 2 defenders who don't really fit our system then that's on Ole. I'm not saying they're bad players but when you look at Leicester signing Peirera and Fofano for about the same price as AWB then surely questions have to be asked? Going the obvious route in signing £80-100m players may eventually win Ole trophies but how sustainable is that?
Absolute nonsense. Ole has his say on a small shortlist of players he'd like to sign. There's no chance Ole is sat there with the cheque book saying "we will pay £80m for Maguire". That kind of football management existed decades ago. It's well documented that Woodward and Judge have been the two negotiators in transfer deals.

If you're a manager and you urgently need a very good CB you're going to want him if he costs £60m and if he wants £80m. Then there's the separate discussion the fact Maguire's transfer fee premium paid for itself, but that wouldn't fit your narrative. He's probably worth £50m in todays market, yet we paid £80m. Without Maguire last season we were not finishing top 4. He was the difference between us and Leicester in the top 4 race. So the extra prize money in finishing 3rd over 5th, covered his fee.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
22,286
Absolute nonsense. Ole has his say on a small shortlist of players he'd like to sign. There's no chance Ole is sat there with the cheque book saying "we will pay £80m for Maguire". That kind of football management existed decades ago. It's well documented that Woodward and Judge have been the two negotiators in transfer deals.

If you're a manager and you urgently need a very good CB you're going to want him if he costs £60m and if he wants £80m. Then there's the separate discussion the fact Maguire's transfer fee premium paid for itself, but that wouldn't fit your narrative. He's probably worth £50m in todays market, yet we paid £80m. Without Maguire last season we were not finishing top 4. He was the difference between us and Leicester in the top 4 race. So the extra prize money in finishing 3rd over 5th, covered his fee.
Yes but he would also set the priority and know the overall budget. He would have to sign off on the majority of the budget being spent on 2 defensive players, because he would have set his priority on what areas need strengthening. The manager doesn't just handover a list and then players show up for preseason.

So yes he wouldn't have signed off on the Maguire fee, but he would have had to sign off on not signing a Lukaku replacement (even though he said earlier in the summer it was a priority) due to the amount of money being spent on Maguire. He would have also had to have signed off on the only attacking player coming in being James (again even though he said earlier in the summer he needed more), again due to the amount of money that would be spent on Maguire.

We don't get 80m for finishing 2 places higher or even being in the UCL. People talk alot about the spending at City, but one thing they tend not to do is blow the whole budget on one player and accept substandard players in other positions (which we have done twice of late with Pogba and Maguire)
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
78,605
Location
india
Yes but he would also set the priority and know the overall budget. He would have to sign off on the majority of the budget being spent on 2 defensive players, because he would have set his priority on what areas need strengthening. The manager doesn't just handover a list and then players show up for preseason.

So yes he wouldn't have signed off on the Maguire fee, but he would have had to sign off on not signing a Lukaku replacement (even though he said earlier in the summer it was a priority) due to the amount of money being spent on Maguire. He would have also had to have signed off on the only attacking player coming in being James (again even though he said earlier in the summer he needed more), again due to the amount of money that would be spent on Maguire.

We don't get 80m for finishing 2 places higher or even being in the UCL. People talk alot about the spending at City, but one thing they tend not to do is blow the whole budget on one player and accept substandard players in other positions (which we have done twice of late with Pogba and Maguire)
You have to hold the manager accountable for his spending. It's pointless absolving them of the responsibilities. They don't negotiate but they decide the shortlists and give the green signal especially at clubs like United. We give SAF, Klopp, Mourinho credit and criticism for their signings so there's no point in now putting it all on Woodward in our case.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
22,286
You have to hold the manager accountable for his spending. It's pointless absolving them of the responsibilities. They don't negotiate but they decide the shortlists and give the green signal especially at clubs like United. We give SAF, Klopp, Mourinho credit and criticism for their signings so there's no point in now putting it all on Woodward in our case.
I think thats exactly what I am saying
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
273
Are we still running with the narrative that the manager brokers the deals?
It's a ridiculous argument and completely baseless.
It’s ridiculous to suggest that a manager has no idea how much a player he wants is going to cost or that board don’t keep the manager in the loop during negotiations.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
78,605
Location
india
It’s ridiculous to suggest that a manager has no idea how much a player he wants is going to cost or that board don’t keep the manager in the loop during negotiations.
Absolutely. Maybe Ole wants Maguire but at 80 million would rather sign a more reasonable CB and CM too. Maybe instead of going for Sancho for the asking price of 80 million he'd want to wait another summer and go for some cheap buys like we did, or would rather spend big this summer on alternate targets for fixing the attack. There's a lot of permutations and combinations. The manager has wiggle room. He doesn't just go target A and sit back till it's executed whatever the fee. Or that shouldn't the case at least.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
1,874
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
Absolute nonsense. Ole has his say on a small shortlist of players he'd like to sign. There's no chance Ole is sat there with the cheque book saying "we will pay £80m for Maguire". That kind of football management existed decades ago. It's well documented that Woodward and Judge have been the two negotiators in transfer deals.

If you're a manager and you urgently need a very good CB you're going to want him if he costs £60m and if he wants £80m. Then there's the separate discussion the fact Maguire's transfer fee premium paid for itself, but that wouldn't fit your narrative. He's probably worth £50m in todays market, yet we paid £80m. Without Maguire last season we were not finishing top 4. He was the difference between us and Leicester in the top 4 race. So the extra prize money in finishing 3rd over 5th, covered his fee.
Of course Ole has his say on his shortlist of players but when his shortlist consists of players like Sancho and Grealish for 200m then once again, how sustainable is this? Is he trying to build a team of galácticos? Can't we think outside the box like every other team?

I rate Maquire but if you think he was the reason we finished top 4 and not Bruno then there's little else to say
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
1,874
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
Absolutely. Maybe Ole wants Maguire but at 80 million would rather sign a more reasonable CB and CM too. Maybe instead of going for Sancho for the asking price of 80 million he'd want to wait another summer and go for some cheap buys like we did, or would rather spend big this summer on alternate targets for fixing the attack. There's a lot of permutations and combinations. The manager has wiggle room. He doesn't just go target A and sit back till it's executed whatever the fee. Or that shouldn't the case at least.
Worryingly I think that is the case. Last season Grealish put himself out of the running pretty early so then we spent the rest of the summer trying to get Sancho. When that went tits up we then had to scramble around and bring in someone like Cavani on the last day. Only having A list players as possible signings is a recipe for disaster. There's no problem going for them but the problem lies in not knowing when to back off and having a feasible plan B. Something we don't seem to be very good at.
 

Jonno

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
8,314
Location
Preston, Lancashire
Yes but he would also set the priority and know the overall budget. He would have to sign off on the majority of the budget being spent on 2 defensive players, because he would have set his priority on what areas need strengthening. The manager doesn't just handover a list and then players show up for preseason.
You're right, he doesn't just hand over a list and that's that. But he will have stated what areas he wanted investing in and the players he wanted. The transfer negotiating is done by Matt Judge and Ed Woodward. This view that Ole is deciding the fees which is what I was replying to initially, is ridiculous. Yes Ole will have been pushing to sign them, regardless of the fee. As any manager would. As Jose did the previous summer (Maguire). There is strong proof that United were right to overpay for Maguire and AWB. We went from shuffling through Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Bailly, Lindelof in CB, and shoving Darmian, Dalot, Young at RB every week, different backline every single match, to signing AWB and Maguire to be mainstays. It paid off as we went from 6th to 3rd and now we're 2nd. Wise investment that pays off year on year, not just that 1 specific season they sign.

So yes he wouldn't have signed off on the Maguire fee, but he would have had to sign off on not signing a Lukaku replacement (even though he said earlier in the summer it was a priority) due to the amount of money being spent on Maguire. He would have also had to have signed off on the only attacking player coming in being James (again even though he said earlier in the summer he needed more), again due to the amount of money that would be spent on Maguire.
Why would he have signed off on not replacing Lukaku just because we didn't sign somebody? Just because we didn't sign a replacement for Lukaku doesn't mean the manager didn't push for it - see Jose pushing for Maguire a year before we signed him. By your logic that means Jose didn't push for Maguire because we didn't sign him? Nonsense. Maybe Ole just doesn't publicly moan when he doesn't get what he wants and that leads you to believe that he's not privately pushing for transfers? Come on.

We don't get 80m for finishing 2 places higher or even being in the UCL. People talk alot about the spending at City, but one thing they tend not to do is blow the whole budget on one player and accept substandard players in other positions (which we have done twice of late with Pogba and Maguire)
Read my post again, I said the extra premium that we paid (IMO £20m-£30m as he's more likely value is £50m not £80m) was worth it, as we made that back and then some by qualifying for the CL and the subsequent prize and TV money. It's well documented we made well over £30m extra from that alone. Not to mention the fact we're comfortably 2nd place in the PL this season, again partly down to the improvements made in defence. This is the thing that annoys me. AWB and Maguire sign for a premium, and shock horror, our defence improves and we go from 6th to 3rd, then from 3rd to 2nd and people don't see the value. We'll likely make another £40m extra next season from once again qualifying for the CL. Maguire and AWB were good investments. But this point is now going away from the initial discussion, which was about Ole. Ole doesn't name the price, he's not a financial guy, he's a coach who want's as many signings as possible, as often as possible. It's been down to Judge and Woodward how much they spend, not Ole.
 

Jonno

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
8,314
Location
Preston, Lancashire
Of course Ole has his say on his shortlist of players but when his shortlist consists of players like Sancho and Grealish for 200m then once again, how sustainable is this? Is he trying to build a team of galácticos? Can't we think outside the box like every other team?

I rate Maquire but if you think he was the reason we finished top 4 and not Bruno then there's little else to say
Eh? Have you personally seen the shortlist have you or are you just going off what twitter says?

You do know he's also signed Cavani on a free, Ighalo on loan, Dan James, VDB, Telles for reasonable fees too, right?

I think Bruno and Maguire played an equal part in us getting top 4. If Maguire didn't sign we wouldn't have finished top 4. If Bruno didn't sign, we wouldn't have got top 4. If you can't see the contribution Maguire, alongside Bruno has given United since he signed, then there really is little else to say. See https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/man-utd-top-the-table-for-clean-sheets-in-all-competitions - that achievement was never going to happen shuffling Lindelof, Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Smalling.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
1,874
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
Eh? Have you personally seen the shortlist have you or are you just going off what twitter says?

You do know he's also signed Cavani on a free, Ighalo on loan, Dan James, VDB, Telles for reasonable fees too, right?

I think Bruno and Maguire played an equal part in us getting top 4. If Maguire didn't sign we wouldn't have finished top 4. If Bruno didn't sign, we wouldn't have got top 4. If you can't see the contribution Maguire, alongside Bruno has given United since he signed, then there really is little else to say. See https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/man-utd-top-the-table-for-clean-sheets-in-all-competitions - that achievement was never going to happen shuffling Lindelof, Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Smalling.
Why do I have to go off of what twitter says? We know we were in for Grealish last summer. We know we were in for Sancho last summer. We kept going for him until the last possible second which suggests we didn't have a plan B and yes I do know we signed Cavani on the last day technically on a free but add in signing on fees, wages and agents fees he wasn't exactly cheap. Was he a panic buy? We all have different thoughts on that. Ighalo has to be one of our strangest signings ever. Dan James was recommended by Giggs and for 15m he was worth a punt but personally I don't think he'll ever be good enough for United, VDB, according to many on here was a Woodward signing and I'll give you the Telles one mainly because it's put a rocket up Shaws arse.

Why do you say the clean sheets achievement would never have happened shuffling Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Bailly and Lindelof? Other than Moyes' disastrous spell and the season Mou decided to self destruct coupled with Oles free fall we're conceding more goals than under Mou and comparable to VG with the players you mentioned so statically it would of been possible for a top 4 spot without Maquire but what is 100% sure is we wouldn't have done it without Bruno.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
10,329
Not our best game, but it improved in the second half.

Ole late with subs again, but they worked fairly well in the end I think.
 

432JuanMata

Full Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
1,601
Location
Dublin
Top 4 guaranteed after 30 games
Still in the EL.
Most likely will finish 2nd.

He obviously will get a new contract and has done enough to deserve one. The question marks are can he close the gap and get us challenging next season I’m still unsure. Firstly he needs to be backed like Lampard was at Chelsea to make that challenge and see if he’s up too it. But overall he has met requirements
 

TheMitz

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
157
We have no defined style of play, which is down to the manager.

but it's a result business, so second in the table is good enough for him.

needs a trophy this season.
 

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
4,863
He’s doing something really good to pump up players in second halfs, equally something is off the way we start games so passively.

I dont know if its a coaching or motivation issue but its not sustainable on the long run.
 

Rossa

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
8,647
Location
Looking over my shoulder.
We have no defined style of play, which is down to the manager.

but it's a result business, so second in the table is good enough for him.

needs a trophy this season.
You do know that some managers see that as a strength as United under Ole is very difficult to plan against. Only City have scored more goals than United this season and only three teams have conceded less.

I think he’s doing very well all things considered!
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
2,576
Good performance I thought the game was lost at around the 50 min mark the team looked flat just moving the ball from left to right. Think Ole's success is both a basis of his management and the quality of the players. I still don't think Solskjaer bridges that gap to actually win anything but only time will tell.