Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Kaos]

Do you think the recent Rodgers love-fest would be as strong as it is if, as United manager, he blew the same lead they had last season to miss out on top four (collapse)? Or lost 2-0 at home to Slavia Prague to go out of the Europa (bottlers)? Or lost to a really poor Villa team (that barely escaped relegation) over two legs last season in a semi-final (bottlers)?

Its not a fair comparison to make considering he's managing Leicester and not United. And even then if you were comparing bottle jobs this season alone then Ole would have quite the unfortunate collection.

For the record I don't actually want Rodgers as manager and find this supposed love-fest typically fickle, having said that I still think he's a better coach than Ole and would wager he'd do a better job than him with the same resources. Doesn't mean we should hire him, its more a damning indication of Ole's ceiling as our manager IMO.

 

[Siorac]

This really isn't that much like the Mourinho situation though. The reasons why have been done to death on here and people either see that and believe that or they don't.

I really do struggle to understand the level of dislike people have with this manager. It doesn't add up to me. Nobody thought we had a prayer of being 2nd after 30 games, but here we are. I get that the football is sloppy at times, I'm not blind, but I also see that we've played 32 times in 15.5 weeks, and haven't had a single midweek off all season. People just seem to completely discount that because......it doesn't fit what they want it to fit.

All we see on here is 'I don't think he's the guy to take us back to the top'. Its written constantly by all of the same people, often during posts where there's really no need to say it at all. You ask whether you can have that opinion? Of course you can. It doesn't mean that people who feel that way have to constantly just be a negative presence. It is possible to feel that way and still enjoy watching this club operate.

I don't dislike him at all. Loved him as a player, and he seems a likeable sort as a person though obviously I don't know him personally. But seems a decent enough bloke, someone I'd be happy to have a few beers with. I have no personal antipathy like I had towards Mourinho who really is a first class prick, regardless of how entertaining people might find him.

I just happen to think he's doing a mediocre job as a manager, a job that doesn't warrant an early contract extension with a significant payrise. He deserves some credit for signing Bruno Fernandes and for 'healing' the dressing room. Beyond that, there's not much. It feels like basically every other post-Fergie season apart from Mourinho's awful meltdown. And that's why I can't really enjoy watching the club operate: it feels like Groundhog Day. You just KNOW that next season and the season after that and the season after that we'll still hover around that 70-point mark, somewhere around 2nd to 6th.

We might finish second this season and sign 2-3 players but we'll lose Pogba and if Fernandes' productivity slows down even a little, we'll be out of the top 4 again. This is the problem: our football has a ceiling because it's disjointed, sloppy, and heavily reliant on star players conjuring something out of nothing. So in order to catch up we'd have to either be spot on with our recruitment for several years without losing anyone either to a transfer, decline, or injuries - or just spend 600-700m in a couple of summers. Neither will happen: players will leave, players will decline - see Martial's form this season after a very good 2019/20 -, new players will turn out to be underwhelming. We're treading water.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Do you think the recent Rodgers love-fest would be as strong as it is if, as United manager, he blew the same lead they had last season to miss out on top four (collapse)? Or lost 2-0 at home to Slavia Prague to go out of the Europa (bottlers)? Or lost to a really poor Villa team (that barely escaped relegation) over two legs last season in a semi-final (bottlers)?

Just to be a bit fair, didnt they have quite some injuries. It was a bottle-fest but I believe they had injuries, which is a lot more difficult for a club that has a much smaller squad on a lot smaller budget than United for example.

But yes, they have failed on bigger stages as well.

 

[Kaos]

I also find this whole rhetoric of him 'healing the dressing room' ridiculously overblown. It's not exactly a miracle when you're replacing one of the most toxic managers in world football. United could have made nice guy Juan Mata the manager and it would have likely also made the dressing room a much happier place. Doesn't mean its a benchmark for actual progress - ie winning trophies and launching genuine title challenges.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I also find this whole rhetoric of him 'healing the dressing room' ridiculously overblown. It's not exactly a miracle when you're replacing one of the most toxic managers in world football. United could have made nice guy Juan Mata the manager and it would have likely also made the dressing room a much happier place. Doesn't mean its a benchmark for actual progress - ie winning trophies and launching genuine title challenges.

You're describing success and not progress.

"Healing the dressing room" is indeed not something worthy of making him our permanent manager for.

Neither is signing Bruno. But when I consider all things, table position included I leaned towards giving him another year.

This 3 year or 2+1 contract decision is a bad business.

 

[Kaos]

You're describing success and not progress.

"Healing the dressing room" is indeed not something worthy of making him our permanent manager for.

Neither is signing Bruno. But when I consider all things, table position included I leaned towards giving him another year.

This 3 year or 2+1 contract decision is a bad business.

I'm happy to give him next season with some backing, I'm not suggesting we give him the chop now (though I wouldn't be too opposed to it if a better manager was immediately available). I just think if he comes out of next season with an empty trophy haul and not mounting a serious title challenge then that's an indication that no success nor progress has been made, hence we simply let the contract gracefully expire and thank him for his time.

I completely agree that the new contract at this time is a ludicrously bad decision.

 

[Red Star One]

Its not a fair comparison to make considering he's managing Leicester and not United. And even then if you were comparing bottle jobs this season alone then Ole would have quite the unfortunate collection.

For the record I don't actually want Rodgers as manager and find this supposed love-fest typically fickle, having said that I still think he's a better coach than Ole and would wager he'd do a better job than him with the same resources. Doesn't mean we should hire him, its more a damning indication of Ole's ceiling as our manager IMO.

Spot on

 

[Bilbo]

Its not a fair comparison to make considering he's managing Leicester and not United. And even then if you were comparing bottle jobs this season alone then Ole would have quite the unfortunate collection.

For the record I don't actually want Rodgers as manager and find this supposed love-fest typically fickle, having said that I still think he's a better coach than Ole and would wager he'd do a better job than him with the same resources. Doesn't mean we should hire him, its more a damning indication of Ole's ceiling as our manager IMO.

He didn't win anything with Liverpool either. Is that a fair comparison to make?

Its only a 'damning indication' in your own mind though. As is the position of most arguments made by the Outers. Its an enviously easy position to take, to just have to say "I think so and so would be better at X", because you never actually have to justify any of these positions. You think it, and so you write it, and so it is the truth, and nobody can ever dissuade you because it isn't actually reality. You never have to defend your opinion because it hasn't happened. You probably deep down believe that even you could do it better, if only you were given the opportunity.

The actual reality is that Ole's employers seem to think that he is doing a good enough to give him a new contract. The actual reality of our league position right now supports that. The truth is that we don't know what Ole's ceiling is yet because the likelihood is that this team is going to get better.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't dislike him at all. Loved him as a player, and he seems a likeable sort as a person though obviously I don't know him personally. But seems a decent enough bloke, someone I'd be happy to have a few beers with. I have no personal antipathy like I had towards Mourinho who really is a first class prick, regardless of how entertaining people might find him.

I just happen to think he's doing a mediocre job as a manager, a job that doesn't warrant an early contract extension with a significant payrise. He deserves some credit for signing Bruno Fernandes and for 'healing' the dressing room. Beyond that, there's not much. It feels like basically every other post-Fergie season apart from Mourinho's awful meltdown. And that's why I can't really enjoy watching the club operate: it feels like Groundhog Day. You just KNOW that next season and the season after that and the season after that we'll still hover around that 70-point mark, somewhere around 2nd to 6th.

We might finish second this season and sign 2-3 players but we'll lose Pogba and if Fernandes' productivity slows down even a little, we'll be out of the top 4 again. This is the problem: our football has a ceiling because it's disjointed, sloppy, and heavily reliant on star players conjuring something out of nothing. So in order to catch up we'd have to either be spot on with our recruitment for several years without losing anyone either to a transfer, decline, or injuries - or just spend 600-700m in a couple of summers. Neither will happen: players will leave, players will decline - see Martial's form this season after a very good 2019/20 -, new players will turn out to be underwhelming. We're treading water.

I don't know that. Not at all. You have a very glass half empty view of everything

 

[Cast5]

I also find this whole rhetoric of him 'healing the dressing room' ridiculously overblown. It's not exactly a miracle when you're replacing one of the most toxic managers in world football. United could have made nice guy Juan Mata the manager and it would have likely also made the dressing room a much happier place. Doesn't mean its a benchmark for actual progress - ie winning trophies and launching genuine title challenges.

Finishing top 4 consecutively is progress considering none of the “world class” managers before Ole could do it. Wonder how the PE teacher has done that.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

If this is true, it shows how much Woodward has learnt after 8 years of failure, absolutely nothing.

 

[Bilbo]

Just to be a bit fair, didnt they have quite some injuries. It was a bottle-fest but I believe they had injuries, which is a lot more difficult for a club that has a much smaller squad on a lot smaller budget than United for example.

But yes, they have failed on bigger stages as well.

Yes of course, they had some circumstances for their failures. I think he's doing a good job and has built a really nice squad there, and I don't believe they bottled anything just like I don't believe United have. My point is about our tendency as a fanbase (or really, this forum) to be oh so sympathetic to the position of other people that we like, and completely unsympathetic to the obstacles that Ole has had to overcome, and that he still has to overcome, because they don't like him. Very few people on here IMO are able to fair. Its way too agenda based to take seriously.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Finishing top 4 consecutively is progress considering none of the “world class” managers before Ole could do it. Wonder how the PE teacher has done that.

He has also managed to not win anything 2.5 years consecutively, which the other "World Class" managers were able to.

 

[anant]

He didn't win anything with Liverpool either. Is that a fair comparison to make?

Its only a 'damning indication' in your own mind though. As is the position of most arguments made by the Outers. Its an enviously easy position to take, to just have to say "I think so and so would be better at X", because you never actually have to justify any of these positions. You think it, and so you write it, and so it is the truth, and nobody can ever dissuade you because it isn't actually reality. You never have to defend your opinion because it hasn't happened. You probably deep down believe that even you could do it better, if only you were given the opportunity.

The actual reality is that Ole's employers seem to think that he is doing a good enough to give him a new contract. The actual reality of our league position right now supports that. The truth is that we don't know what Ole's ceiling is yet because the likelihood is that this team is going to get better.

Exactly. Rodgers is a good coach, but if we start using the same process to judge him that we do to judge Ole, Rodgers won't come across well. Obviously, one can always point to "But he's the Leicester manager" and "He's more experienced now and he'd do a good job". These are almost the same people who felt Mou was perfect for us, and everyone knows how that turned out.

Hell, in the last 3 months only, he's missed atleast 3 chances to go above us -i.e. games where we played before them and dropped points only for Leicester to not capitalize. Imagine the meltdown around that, or how about losing to Slavia? Or how about drawing to Burnley or losing to Leeds. There are a lot more instances this season, where the meltdown over here would have been worse than what we've had, but because we just look at stats to suit our agenda, let's just hype him up just like we were hyping up Hassenhuttl 4 months ago or any other manager an year ago.

 

[Leftback99]

Do you think the recent Rodgers love-fest would be as strong as it is if, as United manager, he blew the same lead they had last season to miss out on top four (collapse)? Or lost 2-0 at home to Slavia Prague to go out of the Europa (bottlers)? Or lost to a really poor Villa team (that barely escaped relegation) over two legs last season in a semi-final (bottlers)?

The Rodgers love fest is because people can't seem to process anything beyond the last game. Just like why this thread falls silent after wins.

 

[SAFMUTD]

A Lazy argument is not a good reason.

You don't always need a long reason, have you heard about the simplest answer is usually the correct one?

I could bring a bunch of statistics that prove that Pep is a better coach than Ole, but you know what? They're so far apart that you and I and almost everyone in the world besides probably Ole's mom agree. So there's no need for that.

 

[BorisManUtd]

He has also managed to not win anything 2.5 years consecutively, which the other "World Class" managers were able to.

I'm not sure if either of LvG or Mourinho would actually won any trophies if they had to play 2020/21 Pep's City in semi-finals of Fa/league cup, or Sevilla in Europa semis, as Jose lost to Sevilla just year and a half before and they dominated us that game (while we mostly dominated them in 2020). Trophies or no trophies, if the team doesn't progress then it's not enough. If we win some trophy under Ole but regress in terms of quality of football, position in the league, then those trophies won't be enough.

 

[UnitedSofa]

He has also managed to not win anything 2.5 years consecutively, which the other "World Class" managers were able to.

...and yet a large portion of this forum still wanted BOTH managers to go.

So no one can win with this fan base to be honest.

It's league title or nothing. Heck I'm not a massive fan of Mou but he won a EUROPEAN title, regardless if it's the ropey cup, it's still a huge European title that shouldn't really be sniffed at as much as it is. He also finished 2nd. That STILL wasn't enough for this forum.

I'd go as far as saying if Ole won the title next year, a large portion of this forum "won't still be convinced" and would say he only won it because the other teams fell off or he relied on Bruno too much.

Full of entitlement.

 

[Siorac]

I don't know that. Not at all. You have a very glass half empty view of everything

Not everything, it's mostly restricted to football. But at least it gives me the very dubious and highly unsatisfying 'pleasure' of being mostly right over the last eight years. I can't see any reason why anything would change in the foreseeable future.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The Rodgers love fest is because people can't seem to process anything beyond the last game. Just like why this thread falls silent after wins.

I mean, people are allowed to rate other managers. You can rate Ole and also rate other managers, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I always find it odd that the really pro-Ole posters love to downplay other managers abilities and seem to take exception with people rating them. Not everything is an attack on Ole - while some are oddly obsessive about Ole - not everyone is. Some can speak about other managers and not have some secret agenda.

I swear, Ole has driven some on here to the brink!

 

[Olecurls99]

Pathetic.

That’s no trophies for the next however many years then, whilst also playing excruciatingly bad football. Luckily getting top 4 is the holy grail for the fanbase now so all is good for Ole & the Glazers

If only we could win the league cup. Then we'd be back to where we were.

 

[Olecurls99]

The cult of Ole fanatics probably don’t realise that. Their delusion is pretty extreme.

Ive said this time & time again, other than a portion of the United fanbase (the ones blinded by sentiment & United DNA etc) nobody rates OGS as a manager. Our rivals fans want him to stay for a reason, because they know we are going nowhere under him. He is to us what Lampard was to Chelsea, and what Dalglish was to Liverpool 10 years ago. It’s all sentiment. We are just wasting our time right now.

6th - 4th - 2nd...

Yep the fans are just deluded. We're going nowhere. You'd have to be a fool to think the above is progress.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Pathetic.

That’s no trophies for the next however many years then, whilst also playing excruciatingly bad football. Luckily getting top 4 is the holy grail for the fanbase now so all is good for Ole & the Glazers

Every post of yours is negative. Literally.

 

[Olecurls99]

With Lampard you could at least make the case for him genuinely being a young manager with room to grow (whereas Ole has been managing for the best part of a decade in the mighty Norwegian league and with Cardiff FC) and Dalglish has actually won a handsome share of domestic titles with Liverpool as manager, even if it was eons ago. Put the sentimentality aside and then you realise how absurd it is to offer a long term contract to an ex Molde and Cardiff manager who's not come close to winning anything at United. I'm sure if you offer Brendan Rodgers the United role with the same resources he'd easily dwarf Ole's achievements at the club, but because the caf has memed him it's considered laughable.

Like you say, the only people happy with him being given a new contract outside of our delusional sentimental fans are - rival fans, and our ownership who are just happy to have a compliant lackey that achieves the bare minimum for us to remain being a profitable club for them to leech off. It really is quite depressing.

Yes, let's not offer what is probably our first manager to get champions league football 2 years in a row since Fergie, a new contract. Maybe he'll just do the job for free.

 

[Leftback99]

I mean, people are allowed to rate other managers. You can rate Ole and also rate other managers, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I always find it odd that the really pro-Ole posters love to downplay other managers abilities and seem to take exception with people rating other managers. Not everything is an attack on Ole - while some are oddly obsessive about Ole - not everyone is. Some can speak about other managers and not have some secret agenda.

I swear, Ole has driven some on here to the brink!

I'm not obsessive about Ole, you won't find a single post from me saying I think he's a great manager (or a bad manager). I just call out the double standards I see when people are so sure x or y are so much better.

If we had won on Sunday you wouldn't see any posts saying how great Rodgers is. Earlier in the season it's been Hassenhuttl, Ancelotti even Lampard. Last season it was Wilder. Decent managers no doubt, it's the 'there's no doubt we'd be better with them' I will argue against because it has no basis.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Every post of yours is negative. Literally.

Could someone start a thread where the anti Ole posts have to say something positive about him, and the pro Ole ones have to criticise him? Be an interesting experiment.

 

[Siorac]

Yes, let's not offer what is probably our first manager to get champions league football 2 years in a row since Fergie, a new contract.

Mourinho achieved that, too, he qualified for the CL in both 2017 and 2018.

Ole would be the first post-Fergie manager to finish in the top 4 in consecutive seasons.

 

[Olecurls99]

We didn't add a single starting 11 player despite holes at CB, RW and DM. VDB, Telles and Cavani(panic buy) were all back ups and Amad/Pellistri are signings for the future. Our holes at CB, RW and DM still remain and now we may have a problem in the ST position. Ole was not backed last summer.
In fact since he came he's only been given THREE starting 11 signings Maguire, Bruno and AWB

Good point. I never looked at it that way but he has only been given 3 nailed on starters since he's come in 3 years ago. I fear it'll be more of the same this summer. And he'll still be expected to win the league with an inferior squad to City, Liverpool and Chelsea(if were honest), by some on here.

 

[Bilbo]

Exactly. Rodgers is a good coach, but if we start using the same process to judge him that we do to judge Ole, Rodgers won't come across well. Obviously, one can always point to "But he's the Leicester manager" and "He's more experienced now and he'd do a good job". These are almost the same people who felt Mou was perfect for us, and everyone knows how that turned out.

Hell, in the last 3 months only, he's missed atleast 3 chances to go above us -i.e. games where we played before them and dropped points only for Leicester to not capitalize. Imagine the meltdown around that, or how about losing to Slavia? Or how about drawing to Burnley or losing to Leeds. There are a lot more instances this season, where the meltdown over here would have been worse than what we've had, but because we just look at stats to suit our agenda, let's just hype him up just like we were hyping up Hassenhuttl 4 months ago or any other manager an year ago.

It really sucks to have to tear apart other managers in order to defend our own, when we all know that every job is different. Some managers just don't work at certain clubs, and other times everything falls into place and a team performs well. Moyes is a great example. He's gone from a joke figure who is now suddenly being recognised again as 'not a bad manager'. What's changed? Has he suddenly leapt forward as a coach? Of course not. He has a group of players that respond to him and his signings have worked.

There is such a thing as right man at right place at right time, in all walks of life. Success at one club doesn't mean you can do it anywhere, likewise failure doesn't mean that you can't. Pep is IMO the best football tactician of all time, but would he have won a CL with Porto as Jose did? Could he get Scunthorpe promoted? Who knows, but its not guaranteed. Like anyone else, he needs the right tools and a good amount of luck to succeed.

 

[Cast5]

He has also managed to not win anything 2.5 years consecutively, which the other "World Class" managers were able to.

If Ole had won something and finished outside the top 4 would it be progress?

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm not obsessive about Ole, you won't find a single post from me saying I think he's a great manager (or a bad manager). I just call out the double standards I see when people are so sure x or y are so much better.

If we had won on Sunday you wouldn't see any posts saying how great Rodgers is. Earlier in the season it's been Hassenhuttl, Ancelotti even Lampard. Last season it was Wilder.

It's constant though, and quite frankly, it's really fecking irritating. You go into the Poch, Rose, Rodgers, Naglelsmann threads and it's all a shit show of posts about fecking Ole. There are posters on here who watch a-lot of European football and want to post detailed posts about other managers but the threads always get derailed into Ole crap. Some are honestly very insecure about him and think everything is a dig.

You call it double standards, but people expecting the Manchester United manager to be doing better than the Leicester, Leipzig managers etc. seems fair game to me.

 

[RkkMan]

Good point. I never looked at it that way but he has only been given 3 nailed on starters since he's come in 3 years ago. I fear it'll be more of the same this summer. And he'll still be expected to win the league with an inferior squad to City, Liverpool and Chelsea(if were honest), by some on here.

I think he'll get 2 starters this summer and one cheap back up if we're being very lucky.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I'm not sure if either of LvG or Mourinho would actually won any trophies if they had to play 2020/21 Pep's City in semi-finals of Fa/league cup, or Sevilla in Europa semis, as Jose lost to Sevilla just year and a half before and they dominated us that game (while we mostly dominated them in 2020). Trophies or no trophies, if the team doesn't progress then it's not enough. If we win some trophy under Ole but regress in terms of quality of football, position in the league, then those trophies won't be enough.

Agree, nor LVG nor Mourinho were good enough. But the fact that people think Ole is after having similar results than them and not winning a thing is weird.

 

[croadyman]

Well it's become pretty obvious that Ole inners generally seem to be happy with his coaching staff (utterly ridiculous but they are entitled to their own opinion) however surely there isn't a genuine belief that he will actually be properly backed this summer when you look at what has already been said about being careful in a COVID market.

 

[R'hllor]

Hope thats 30mil. per year, otherwise Ed is a genius.

 

[Devil may care]

There's no reason to give him a new contract until the season is complete, we could still end up with no trophy and outside the top 4, plus the football we are playing is getting steadily worse. No other club is going to try and "steal" Ole.

 

[Olecurls99]

I just don't understand the rush for a new contract, the end of the season is literally only a few months away. Why not just wait and see how we finish? It's really not far fetched to say we could end up finishing this season 3rd and trophyless, is that still grounds for a new contract?

Interesting fact - he averages 1.84 points a match with us since becoming permanent manager. He had an almost identical record at Molde with 1.84 and 1.85 in his two stints there. So it's fair to say that's so far consistently his level.

He really needs to show he is better than that because simply put, that's not going to be enough in the Prem with this quality of coaching. Couple that with the fact that our football isn't the most exciting to watch and you can see why some people want him out/wish he would look into refreshing his coaching staff.

I couldn't give two craps about his coaching staff. I'm 28 times more interested in the playing staff. What is people's fascination with our coaches all about? They put down the cones and organise a bit of 2 touch at this and every other club. Here's a question. Can you name city's coaches without googling please?

 

[Leftback99]

It's constant though, and quite frankly, it's really fecking irritating. You go into the Poch, Rose, Rodgers, Naglelsmann threads and it's all a shit show of posts about fecking Ole. There are posters on here who watch a-lot of European football and want to post detailed posts about other managers but the threads always get derailed into Ole crap. Some are honestly very insecure about him and think everything is a dig.

You call it double standards, but people expecting the Manchester United manager to be doing better than the Leicester, Leipzig managers etc. seems fair game to me.

It's not conclusive that he isn't doing better though that's the thing. There is equally as much nonsense in them threads with things like 'this is what a proper manager looks like' (baiting the Ole in crowd), before they follow it up with a poor result a few days later.

 

[Bilbo]

Not everything, it's mostly restricted to football. But at least it gives me the very dubious and highly unsatisfying 'pleasure' of being mostly right over the last eight years. I can't see any reason why anything would change in the foreseeable future.

The funny thing about all this is that over a long enough timeline almost every Outer will be able to claim that they are right. Unless he goes on a Ferguson level trophy rampage, there will always be juuuuust enough room there for everyone to say 'I told you so' and satisfy themselves that they got this one right, like anyone actually cares. Its why this thread goes on and on and why it gets bumped 20 minutes into a game if we aren't winning. Everyone is invested in this one that they are desperate to see him fail. They need that vindication.

One of my team bet me £100 the day Ole was appointed that he wouldn't see beyond his interim period. Then we double or nothing'ed the following season, and then this one. We're at £400 now and I'll go again if he decides to. The reason I mention that is because by many metrics Ole has already over-achieved. He wasn't and still isn't fancied at all by so many people and yet here he is, on the verge of getting a new contract, in 2nd position, in one of the toughest jobs in football.

 

[rotherham_red]

Just to be a bit fair, didnt they have quite some injuries. It was a bottle-fest but I believe they had injuries, which is a lot more difficult for a club that has a much smaller squad on a lot smaller budget than United for example.

But yes, they have failed on bigger stages as well.

We also had injuries but it didn't stop us beating West Ham and Milan in the space of 4 days.

Leicester was a bridge too far for a patched up squad and I honestly would have preferred going out to Milan and beating Leicester both before and after the facts, but injuries aren't really an excuse when we've had similar issues.