Because we hired one more washed up manager.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Think it is best if we end it here.
I agree, Woodward is as much to blame as anyone for our current situation but no one is defending him in this thread.
People are still prepared to defend Jose, however, even though he is equally to blame.
Do you disagree that manager picks the player whom we sign? I mean we don't get every target but hard to think of any player signed without manager's approval.
OK, so Jose must have always bought duds in his previous clubs as with LVG.
Yes, but whether they are high up on his list or whether he trusts the scouts and people identifying the players is another thing. He seemed to distinguish the Lindelof and Dalot signings because they were from Portugal and he has his own network there.
The manager needs significant help. They cannot expect him to juggle everything, he is bound to make mistakes with all that pressure.
If your a qualified and knowledgeable coach are you in a massive hurry to sign either all factors considered (form, fitness issues, wages etc)?
The only idiot rushing to sign them was Jose.
Not ideal but again it frees up money in turn to ensure we can invest next summer. I've a feeling Jadon Sancho has agreed to sign next summer myself, but only time will tell.
I don't see any other top clubs sniffing around Sancho so there's something going on there.
Of course LVG has his share of blame, but reality is that Jose refused to sell Darmian on more than one occasion. Darmian and his agent were both quoted as saying they wanted a return to Italy 2 years back but Jose refused to sell.
I recall at the time no one having issues with Falcao or Schweini, in fact I recall us mocking Liverpool for their apparent sub par transfer window and we signed Falcao and ADM minus CL football.
Transfers are hit n miss, but attaching hindsight to it now is a weak argument.
Yeah, however shall we replace those whopping 5 goals in 18 months. Sure James has 2 already, give the head a wobble there.
Did the other managers oversee a 46% increase in wage structure? Nope.
Of course the manager would be involved in part with transfers, its short sighted and daft to believe the manager isn't made aware of how signing X player impacts the financials in building their team.
He did far more wrong, than right.
What about our woeful player fitness levels?
What about player power?
What about his own unprofessional, embarrassing, child like tantrums?
They say a team mirrors their managers attitude, is it any fecking wonder we had our players openly mock the club through social media throughout his tenure and the day he walked into the club?
What about his demands to keep sub par players like Darmian and Fellaini? The latter of whom who conducted an interview saying "Jose made it easy for me to demand what I did"?
I'd gladly give up 2nd place finishes (19 pts adrift BTW, the largest 2nd place finish in PL history) and our two B Cups if it meant some professionalism, structure and long term identity.
Actually you can.
The manager would obviously be made aware of the financial impact it would have on transfer budget. Jose clearly demanded Pogba throughout his debut summer transfer window and the club delivered him. Likewise with Sanchez and he knew well the financial impact that would have going forward.
Similarly, look at all the public quotes from Jose regarding his demands that Fellaini be kept.
If Jose is demanding Fellaini be kept and the board show support and deliver on that, who is to blame?
A) The manager demanding X player be signed / resigned
B) The board simply showing support to the manager
I asked this time and time again in the Woodward thread and most avoid answering it cause they know well its very much on the manager as well.
I'd agree it is solely wrong to blame a single person, yet you and many others thought it perfectly acceptable to single out Woodward on his thread, didn't you?
Just to note, the manager does indeed influence transfer spend and wage structure.
Gave a perfectly fine example above how a manager is involved and influences it.
The board have to be seen to be supporting their manager, so if a manager demands an expensive addition, then surely that's on the manager as much if not more so than the board who are simply delivering the target?
We should probably be looking for Maddison like talent in Championship anyway. That's why I like James signing so much, we finally started shopping in the lower league where there's a lot of very good talent to be bought.
We put too much on the relationship between managers and transfer policy. All of our managers have bought a variety of duds and good players over the years.
Since 09/10:
Under Sir Alex
Good
Antonio Valencia
Chris Smalling
Javier Hernandez
De Gea
Ashley Young
Van Persie
Shit
Mame Biram Diouf
Michael Owen
Gabriel Obertan
Bebe
Phil Jones
Shinji Kagawa
Wilfried Zaha
Angelo Henriquez
Alex Buttner
Nick Powell
Meh, not counting
Anders Lindegaard
--
Under Moyes
Good
Juan Mata
Shit
Fellaini
--
Under LVG
Good
Luke Shaw
Daley Blind
Tony Martial
Romero
Shit
Di Maria
Falcao
Schweinsteiger
Marcus Rojo
Schneiderlein
Darmian
Depay
--
Under Mourinho
Good
Paul Pogba
Ibrahimovic
Matic
Lindelof
Shit
Mkhitaryan
Bailly
Lukaku (good first season though)
Alexis 'has a dog' Sanchez
Fred
Meh, not counting
Dalot
Lee Grant
Since 09/10:
Under Sir Alex
Good
Antonio Valencia
Chris Smalling
Javier Hernandez
De Gea
Ashley Young
Van Persie
Shit
Mame Biram Diouf
Michael Owen
Gabriel Obertan
Bebe
Phil Jones
Shinji Kagawa
Wilfried Zaha
Angelo Henriquez
Alex Buttner
Nick Powell
Meh, not counting
Anders Lindegaard
--
Under Moyes
Good
Juan Mata
Shit
Fellaini
--
Under LVG
Good
Luke Shaw
Daley Blind
Tony Martial
Romero
Shit
Di Maria
Falcao
Schweinsteiger
Marcus Rojo
Schneiderlein
Darmian
Depay
--
Under Mourinho
Good
Paul Pogba
Ibrahimovic
Matic
Lindelof
Shit
Mkhitaryan
Bailly
Lukaku (good first season though)
Alexis 'has a dog' Sanchez
Fred
Meh, not counting
Dalot
Lee Grant
I think he pretty much guaranteed that he won't be in the plans for next season without replacement in mind. All I'm saying is he could've handled it better if we are to bring no replacement in his place.
Maybe he could have handled it better yeah, shouldn't have been so ruthless in trying to shape the squad the way he wants because he could have known Ed would fail him as he has failed all our managers before.
As I've said it depends of what the board has promised him previously. Mourinho is known for his style long before he was brought in here. Whether he's not or is very good depending on his methods is debatable, however his trophy haul speaks for itself.
Pep is known to be one of the best managers in the world and spend 200m on top of having better team than Jose to start with.
In the third window he definitely wasn't backed because we had some targets that we needed to get. I'm not going to justify him being 11 points behind Chelsea as he shouldn't be even with that team and he rightfully was sacked.
He won 2 cups in the first season and got CL qualification. That was the best season we had post Fergie. Not calling it progress is disingenuous mate.
I'm talking on results as Jose was a short term solution and was brought in as one. He's not a manager that would be here for a decade and is pretty different than Klopp.
I think some other poster already has shown figures that our raise in the wage structure was no different from LvG during Jose. Natural progression of more money in football.
Pep demanded Sanchez and also Maguire, but the club still stopped him because they didn't agree with the wage structure or transfer fee. And it's not like Pep has been shy on the transfer market.
As I've said either you fault all the managers so far for the transfer business or the board. Someone has the last word and since the board haven't changed after Fergie it's safe to say the stance on that would not change.
You are talking as Jose demanding Pogba is actually a bad thing. Pogba for what is worth is valued more than what he was brought in for and he is our best player who looks remotely world class. This is not a stick I'd beat Jose with.
For Sanchez much has been said, but I doubt many thought he would turn out to be a disaster. As many didn't think Veron would be a dud either. Happens to every manager - you can't get them all right.
Now Smalling to Roma on loan, have to say, although it will take a year or two, I am loving Ole's working getting rid of the shit, about god dam time!! So many managers have been "ah we will give you another chance, you might come good".
Finally a manager who has realised, nope you are shit, out!
Sanchez, Smalling, Lukaku, Valencia all gone, Jones, Darmian, Rojo nowhere near a match day squad, Young, Matic obviously been told no longer starting 11 and I would think will be gone next summer.
Yes we are relying on kids at the moment, yes our squad is wafer thin, yes this season may well be a struggle but I love the fact that Ole has the balls to say, these need going, in 2/3 transfer windows we are going to have a squad with young hungry talented players who want to be at the club, hopefully playing high paced, fast, pressing, attacking football.
Reminds me of Pep when he went in at City, bombed off Hart and 12+ other players because they did not fit his style and took time assembling a squad to get there where they are now.
No more quick fixes, it seems that Ole has a plan and it will take time to execute it but feck me finally a bit of a structure seems to be in place.
Rome was not built in a day!
Ole out? Do me a favour!
Finally a manager who has realised, nope you are shit, out!
Sanchez, Smalling, Lukaku, Valencia all gone, Jones, Darmian, Rojo nowhere near a match day squad, Young, Matic obviously been told no longer starting 11 and I would think will be gone next summer.
Yes we are relying on kids at the moment, yes our squad is wafer thin, yes this season may well be a struggle but I love the fact that Ole has the balls to say, these need going, in 2/3 transfer windows we are going to have a squad with young hungry talented players who want to be at the club, hopefully playing high paced, fast, pressing, attacking football.
Reminds me of Pep when he went in at City, bombed off Hart and 12+ other players because they did not fit his style and took time assembling a squad to get there where they are now.
No more quick fixes, it seems that Ole has a plan and it will take time to execute it but feck me finally a bit of a structure seems to be in place.
Rome was not built in a day!
Ole out? Do me a favour!
And he delivered a 2nd place finish remember.
Thank you! Finally a post that doesn't make me want to jump out a window!
The one thing you can't say is that he doesn't have a vision.
He is getting rid of players he does want or refusing to play them no matter the cost to the season.
I have said all along I am willing to accept being out of the top four if
He is getting rid of players he does want or refusing to play them no matter the cost to the season.
I have said all along I am willing to accept being out of the top four if
- The young players get as my h game time as possible.
- He has a clear tactical aggressive playing strategy
- He gets rid or refuses to play the proven duds.
Welcome to the Caf mate, they spend all season saying how dreadful players are how we want rid, then when a manager has the balls to actually do it, guess what.
They kick off haha Twitter is the same, some of our fanbase make me cringe mate.
I think that he got some good ideas but he will never be a good enough manager.
Yes we improved in certain areas but where is the directness and the creativity? The players run a bit more and do the pressing thing but ultimately the outcome against teams sitting back is frustrating. It is like if the players had not been given clear enough instructions in case they got the majority of the ball.
Also I am not sure about this „all British“ approach. Overall I think there would have been better value in the market for the money we spent on Maguire, AWB and James.
It is only 3 games but so far I am not convinced that our defense is fixed.
Yes we improved in certain areas but where is the directness and the creativity? The players run a bit more and do the pressing thing but ultimately the outcome against teams sitting back is frustrating. It is like if the players had not been given clear enough instructions in case they got the majority of the ball.
Also I am not sure about this „all British“ approach. Overall I think there would have been better value in the market for the money we spent on Maguire, AWB and James.
It is only 3 games but so far I am not convinced that our defense is fixed.
Pep spent ton of money to replace those 12+ players mate.
I'd be happy to get rid of the duds but only if we bring in replacements.
You have to have better squad all the time, or at least aim at that. Missing couple of years of CL would mean no top player will come to us unless we stuff him with money - and this is what we're trying to avoid.
Next year if we finish outside top 4, no one out of Sancho or Dybala or the likes will care that we're cleaning the deadwood. They will see only a team that is seriously off the pace in the most competitive league in the world with a rookie manager where the most compelling part is money and wages..
What we're doing has nothing to do with what Pep did. He spent nearly a billion to bring in probably 30 players during his reign, we have brought in 3 so far.
Under Olé Gunnar Solskjær, Manchester United's xG/game is the highest it has been in 5 years
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/cwy6td/under_olé_gunnar_solskjær_manchester_uniteds/
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/cwy6td/under_olé_gunnar_solskjær_manchester_uniteds/
Yeah I agree. We should be looking at these players before they make the jump to midtable clubs. Also with how the transfer fee have increased, won't be surprised if more top clubs starts to take punts on lower league players.
The one problem I see this year is mentality.
I think this team is very fragile and weak mentally.
The reason I think that is, other than the PSG result, as soon as we get pegged back to 1 - 1 or go a goal down we struggle to turn the game around in our favour.
Does anyone know why this might be?
I think this team is very fragile and weak mentally.
The reason I think that is, other than the PSG result, as soon as we get pegged back to 1 - 1 or go a goal down we struggle to turn the game around in our favour.
Does anyone know why this might be?
Cantwell from Norwich looks good, if he does well we should be looking at him. He wouldn't be too expensive.
That second place under Mourinho was a fluke, with us being the 6th team with more shots in the league and 7th in less shots conceded. We were a fairly mediocre team with De Gea doing wonders regularly and the players being specially clinical. The following season our production came back to more natural levels and our results became more realistic based on numbers and performances.
If that second place had been something solid he could have replicated similar results next season, as Pochettino did with no signings at all. That team was going nowhere and adding the likes of Willian and Perisic would have meant nothing, but some more deadwood needing to be shifted out with the only exception of Maguire.
Under Mourinho we were mediocre at playing the ball, tactically it was plain simple and we parked the bus more often than not, and the players weren't well prepared physically as it was shown later with Ole, when they were asked to press and run more after being one of the teams with less distance covered for years. It's simply unadmissible to have a team in such conditions and keep demanding expensive veterans to fill the holes, something that would have created bigger problems for us now.
Consdering the poor displays against Sevilla both home and away and the garbage he spout after that game, his toxic, miserable attitude almost from the very first day, and that he rarely improves his teams after the second season, I think there were enough reasons to sack him and we would have done the man a favour too. It's obvious that for one reason or another he just wasn't in the right state of mind to carry a club of this size on his shoulders.
But with that said we can't blame Mourinho for being Mourinho. The biggest mistake here was signing him in the first place, a short term patch in desperation instead of working on a proper plan. Mourinho was a panic choice, probably once we saw City getting Guardiola and Liverpool getting Klopp, so they thought we needed an immediate impact to remain at the surface at any cost. It was amateurish as I said back then.
As it was expected they've been building a proper system while we just grabbed results by the quickest route in the most miserable way. So that cost have been expensive and now we have to pay the bills, and that's on the board 100 %.
Now let's see how much belief they have on this current long term plan, the attacking football, the youngsters and the brittish core, something that we'll discover if at some point everything becomes a mess this season. I've seen people suggesting Allegri and I can see them being tempted too at some point. I mean, not only the same boring crap of the last 6 years, but another twist in terms of approach and style, it would be laughable to be honest.
All these years we've been missing football men at charge of key decisions and a proper strategy, and now I feel it's Solskjaer, Phelan and the staff adviced by the big boss giving us that vision for the future to work on, but if nobody else appears at the club to solidify those beliefs, then I think everything is just pending on a thread. Our problem is structural, essentially a bunch of football inepts pressing buttons randomly without having any clue.
If that second place had been something solid he could have replicated similar results next season, as Pochettino did with no signings at all. That team was going nowhere and adding the likes of Willian and Perisic would have meant nothing, but some more deadwood needing to be shifted out with the only exception of Maguire.
Under Mourinho we were mediocre at playing the ball, tactically it was plain simple and we parked the bus more often than not, and the players weren't well prepared physically as it was shown later with Ole, when they were asked to press and run more after being one of the teams with less distance covered for years. It's simply unadmissible to have a team in such conditions and keep demanding expensive veterans to fill the holes, something that would have created bigger problems for us now.
Consdering the poor displays against Sevilla both home and away and the garbage he spout after that game, his toxic, miserable attitude almost from the very first day, and that he rarely improves his teams after the second season, I think there were enough reasons to sack him and we would have done the man a favour too. It's obvious that for one reason or another he just wasn't in the right state of mind to carry a club of this size on his shoulders.
But with that said we can't blame Mourinho for being Mourinho. The biggest mistake here was signing him in the first place, a short term patch in desperation instead of working on a proper plan. Mourinho was a panic choice, probably once we saw City getting Guardiola and Liverpool getting Klopp, so they thought we needed an immediate impact to remain at the surface at any cost. It was amateurish as I said back then.
As it was expected they've been building a proper system while we just grabbed results by the quickest route in the most miserable way. So that cost have been expensive and now we have to pay the bills, and that's on the board 100 %.
Now let's see how much belief they have on this current long term plan, the attacking football, the youngsters and the brittish core, something that we'll discover if at some point everything becomes a mess this season. I've seen people suggesting Allegri and I can see them being tempted too at some point. I mean, not only the same boring crap of the last 6 years, but another twist in terms of approach and style, it would be laughable to be honest.
All these years we've been missing football men at charge of key decisions and a proper strategy, and now I feel it's Solskjaer, Phelan and the staff adviced by the big boss giving us that vision for the future to work on, but if nobody else appears at the club to solidify those beliefs, then I think everything is just pending on a thread. Our problem is structural, essentially a bunch of football inepts pressing buttons randomly without having any clue.
Very true, all the games we've won recently, we've scored first. Rarely do we turn it around these days after conceding first or if the opposition equalise. That definitely needs to be addressed!
I take Crystal Palace and Wolves for example, generally what you'd expect is we take the lead or in any case the opponent hits back, we go up a gear.
We played well against both, but after the goals it didn't look like we had belief to go and win the game.
Ole needs to sort this out quickly because teams will know stay in the game till 60-70 minute and this United team gets very nervy.
Him and the board, yes. The only common denominator during these years. And we were talking mostly about the structural and decision making problems that obviously exist.
I might add that managers have done pretty shit job at identifying targets and actual coaching since they basically didn't manage to increase the value of a single player during their reign which is a good indication of their work with the team. Hope Ole can change that and I like some of the things he has done btw.
Do feel that people who think there is some grand plan behind this summer exit could be in for a suprise when Ed takes the easy route and pulls the trigger on Ole if we find ourselves a bit behind.
We miss you in that thread btw.
Thank you! I predicted increase in XG during preseason, after seeing our set up. Your stat shows that OGS managed to increase it immediately when he took the job as interim. I didn’t realize that the margin was that big. We went from 1,6 to 1,8 in just half season (this is taking in account JM time at the club!). We became more aggressive but were let down by our shaky defense. In preseason:
1. He fixes defense.
2. Relies on fast players in attack.
3. Clears the deadwood.
We have to buy very expensive reinforcement in mid/attack next summer. We cannot do without optimizing our wage structure which is a burden and eats up transfer money at the end of the day.
Getting rid of Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling is great. Another great thing is actually getting decent money for them. Well, In case of Sanchez it’s saving a LOT of money.
Herrera wanted too much. I will not be surprised if we will not sign a contract with De Gea. After the WC, his quality has dropped.
More importantly, he’s not a GK for a dominating team. Both City and Liverpool invested in GK position, because a GK is 11th field player in their tactics. We have to change the keeper.
Yeah I know mate, I'm saying it reminds me of Pep's first summer when he gutted the squad, he went out and paid fortunes for full backs, we spent 130M on two defenders to sort out the backline, and I would imagine further investment on a left back next summer.
We have managed to buy Maguire & AWB with no UCL, which personally I think are two of our best signings post Fergie. James for 15M looks an absolute steal right now, much prefer our scouting network to actually do some work rather than using UCL to think were playing footy manager going after 5 star players all the time.
Don't forget as well that we have the Europa as another avenue into the UCL this year, with probably Arsenal as the strongest side in the competition bar ourselves, few average sides from Italy/Spain/Germany who we should hopefully get past.
Personal opinion, but I would be more than happy to go after players who actually want to play for the shirt rather than players who come for a paycheck and the fact they can play UCL, if players have no interest unless those two boxes are ticked then, thanks and see you later.
If we can nab top 4 or a Europa League win this season, go into next season with a LB, CM, No 10 and Sancho purchased with Tuanzebe, Gomes, Greenwood, Garner & Chong having gained valuable game time/experience this season.
Then I am all for it, call me positive but I am just happy we are moving away from giving Di Maria/Sanchez 350k a week to mope around hating life and offering feck all.
Give me Dan James on 70k a week going crazy every time he scores over Alexis moping around being a toxic bellend on 500k a week any day of the week my friend.
Obviously confidence. When they come up against any sort of adversity, the team lack the belief that they can overcome it. This has been a problem for some time, of course, and not something that's specific to Ole and this team. But it's an issue that isn't going to be fixed easily.
Even during Ole's great run, we beat teams by scoring first. Under Jose, we came back from a goal down a few time.
Fantastic post, and the boldened is a particularly enlightening read.
Ole has been hamstrung by an incompetent board but he's shown true conviction and has fully backed up his words on the squad. My respect for him will never dim. What a guy.
If any of the bed wetters still think Gomes et al won't get a shot, then quite frankly nothing will ever be good enough for them.
younger = less tolerance to frustration. In our case is visible. Ole needs to pay more attention to psychological coaching. Klopp, Poch, and Guardiola especially good at mentality building. Seriously good.
Hope OGS takes that into account. A good run of games will also help.
I know we have a young squad but they are experienced.
Rashford, Lindelof, Martial, Pogba all have good experience.
He needs to get someone in to help with this because against the bigger teams and the way we play, teams will score goals. We might need a game where we do a crazy come back and confidence increases.
The Palace game would have been ideal, 1-0 at home score penalty and 85th min winner.
Going through old Jose threads for entertainment I realized that I got married on the day of his signature at United. And still am. Me 1 - Jose 0 
Yeah, some of the things he has done imply he is more ruthless then people think and has a clear vision in terms where he wants to take this team. And I like the aggresive approuch in our game as you say.
He deserves more patience and time imo. We won't turn this mess overnight.
As long as you don't have a meltdown, you'll be fine.Going through old Jose threads for entertainment I realized that I got married on the day of his signature at United. And still am. Me 1 - Jose 0
I don’t think it’s because we are always trying to get the best players,I think all the top clubs in England are trying to get the best players.Its because 1)Our Scouting department is nowhere close to the other big clubs in the country.2)Not having a DOF and a proper structure around the managers means that we are jumping from one extreme to the other every couple of years...Over the last 5 years we”ve gone from possesion based football with technical,physically small players to big strong players who can counterattack to young British talent with speed in the final third...
There’s no long term plan about how we want to play football,and we have no clue about the profile of players who can play that style of football.We are just jumping from one extreme to the other right now,and that’s why we are in this almighty mess...
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