Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Question is what happened to the first few games under Ole? I mean, how can a honeymoon period, alone, result in 12 goals in 3 games? I don't buy it. We actually played some delightful football across 270 minutes and played some decent stuff sporadically until March. I don't see any of it in recent (footballing) months.

Seems more and more obvious it was McKenna and Carrick's influence for those first few games.

Ole said prior to the Cardiff game, they'd have more of an influence tactically initially since they'd been working with the team.

 

[SteveW]

Again, it's been 10 months... 10!... that's not an unreasonable amount of time to expect to see some notable improvements. You bring up Pep's lack of success in his inaugural season, when much like Klopp, it obfuscates the reality that everyone could see the noticeable change in City's play, and how their defeats that seasons were largely due to their inability (specifically defensively) to adapt to his demands instantly... Much like how Liverpool's first 10 months under Klopp saw them lose or draw a number of games by virtue of their newly high intensive attacking ethos leaving them naively open at the back... If we were dropping points because of things like this, it'd be entirely understandable, and significantly fewer people would have issue with Ole... But we're not. We're dropping points because we dont seem to have any attacking plan, and create incredibly few chances.

And you're misinterpreting my point about Fergie having "no discernable style"... All of his successful teams very much did have a style, and they largely stuck to it - the occasional cluth match or Euro away aside - but they were noticeably different from the styles of his earlier sides, is what I mean... Because unlike Pep or Klopp (who have very entrenched ideologies, that they'll likely never lose) Fergie was happy to adapt his outlook to suit the era he was competing in... And if he was still in charge now, he'd likely try and find a way of either adapting to, or ingeniously defeating, the current prevailing trend of high pressing possession play... And he certainly wouldn't try and counter it by reverting to an earlier, slightly outdated style he was once successful with decades earlier... because that would go against pretty much everything he'd build his legacy on!

Which is precisely why I worry about Ole's unwavering belief in the inevitable success of this type of football, being uncomfortably close to the kind of Mike Bassett-esque 4-4-2 mentality.... Thought obviously, I hope I'm spectacularly wrong!

I'm not saying Fergie didn't have a style. I'm saying the "United way" is not about a particular style. Ole isn't trying to copy any of SAFs teams from a style perspective. He's just trying to instill that mentality into the players. We've turned into Liverpool from a few years ago. He wants the players to understand what playing for United means. So he uses the SAF era as an example to follow.

I think the football will improve over time but I don't agree with your expectations for a sudden stylistic shift. He only got them fit enough to run for 90 minutes about 6 games ago. We have a shit midfield and most of our attackers are either very young or not very good. I don't see us playing flowing attacking football any time soon but I don't see any reason why we can't improve as the season goes on. Klopp ripped everything up and finished 8th. Do you really think that's the remit Ole's been given? He needs to get top 4.

He needs to focus on improving the squad, developing the young players, becoming harder to beat and better at creating chances. Then he needs to continue to make good signings. It will be a gradual process and I expect to see improvements as the season goes on. If they are still playing the same football by the end of the season I'll be unhappy but I think it's too early to complain especially when a couple missed penalties and refereeing decisions are all that's stopped us from being a few points above City.

The bolded part is incredibly reductive.

 

[Red Dreams]

Good post @SteveW

 

[Bastian]

Imagine expecting scintillating attacking football from 3 youth players in the forward line, backed up by Rojo at full back and Matic in centre midfield.

You people must look at average PL lineups and expect prime Barcelona every weekend.

I thought both Matic and Rojo had decent games. Probably the best I've seen Rojo at full back. And Matic looked a lot better than in his last game. Tuanzebe just a bit better (motm for me).

3-0 wouldn't have flattered us, even if we were fielding a side with no match sharpness. Near total domination but failing to finish off the chances. And their keeper made some great saves too.

Nice to see some decent corner delivery in that first half too.

It was a ballsy move by Ole to give them all a run out. Maybe would have been better to field two core players in the spine of the team, but these lot all have a game under their belts now and Mason broke his duck so no complaints here really.

 

[Mockney]

@SteveW you keep saying things like “Klopp finished 8th!” and “Pep didn’t succeed straight away” whilst completely ignoring my (frequently made) point about their noticeable and relatively instant impact on the playing styles and attacking verve of Liverpool and City... Not to mention in Klopps case the fact he reached 3 European finals in 4 years...Whilst playing really well... the kind of thing that tides over fan concerns about finishing 8th.... we are doing literally none of those things, and don’t look remotely close to doing so.

Again, I dearly hope I’m wrong.. but people can’t keep using Klopp and Pep as examples of keeping the faith, because they only prove the complete opposite, progression wise.

 

[sport2793]

I'm not saying Fergie didn't have a style. I'm saying the "United way" is not about a particular style. Ole isn't trying to copy any of SAFs teams from a style perspective. He's just trying to instill that mentality into the players. We've turned into Liverpool from a few years ago. He wants the players to understand what playing for United means. So he uses the SAF era as an example to follow.

I think the football will improve over time but I don't agree with your expectations for a sudden stylistic shift. He only got them fit enough to run for 90 minutes about 6 games ago. We have a shit midfield and most of our attackers are either very young or not very good. I don't see us playing flowing attacking football any time soon but I don't see any reason why we can't improve as the season goes on. Klopp ripped everything up and finished 8th. Do you really think that's the remit Ole's been given? He needs to get top 4.

He needs to focus on improving the squad, developing the young players, becoming harder to beat and better at creating chances. Then he needs to continue to make good signings. It will be a gradual process and I expect to see improvements as the season goes on. If they are still playing the same football by the end of the season I'll be unhappy but I think it's too early to complain especially when a couple missed penalties and refereeing decisions are all that's stopped us from being a few points above City.

The bolded part is incredibly reductive.

Excellent post. I think the first thing anyone has to look at with a young manager is if they can organize a team to defend as it is always more sustainable to win 2-0 than 4-2. I think Ole and his setup of coaches have achieved that much so far in their tenure. I don't think Lampard has demonstrated this yet and if left unaddressed will ultimately be his downfall, no matter how pretty their attacking play looks at times. The second thing that we have to look for is the attacking patterns of play that a manager and his team have to instill into a side at a top club. This is clearly a work in progress but I think this is something that we should evaluate early next year rather than obsess over now. I would definitely hope though that we have a better pattern of attack towards the end of this season than we do currently, it just seems that the players lack ideas to unlock a low block.

 

[el3mel]

Again, it's been 10 months... 10!... that's not an unreasonable amount of time to expect to see some notable improvements. You bring up Pep's lack of success in his inaugural season, when much like Klopp, it obfuscates the reality that everyone could see the noticeable change in City's play, and how their defeats that seasons were largely due to their inability (specifically defensively) to adapt to his demands instantly... Much like how Liverpool's first 10 months under Klopp saw them lose or draw a number of games by virtue of their newly high intensive attacking ethos leaving them naively open at the back... If we were dropping points because of things like this, it'd be entirely understandable, and significantly fewer people would have issue with Ole... But we're not. We're dropping points because we dont seem to have any attacking plan, and create incredibly few chances.

And you're misinterpreting my point about Fergie having "no discernable style"... All of his successful teams very much did have a style, and they largely stuck to it - the occasional cluth match or Euro away aside - but they were noticeably different from the styles of his earlier sides, is what I mean... Because unlike Pep or Klopp (who have very entrenched ideologies, that they'll likely never lose) Fergie was happy to adapt his outlook to suit the era he was competing in... And if he was still in charge now, he'd likely try and find a way of either adapting to, or ingeniously defeating, the current prevailing trend of high pressing possession play... And he certainly wouldn't try and counter it by reverting to an earlier, slightly outdated style he was once successful with decades earlier... because that would go against pretty much everything he'd build his legacy on!

Which is precisely why I worry about Ole's unwavering belief in the inevitable success of this type of football, being uncomfortably close to the kind of Mike Bassett-esque 4-4-2 mentality.... Thought obviously, I hope I'm spectacularly wrong!

Great post. People don't get the idea of "patience". There's no problem on being patient on a manager if the results aren't good if you are seeing a real work in progress on the pitch, a style change, and new ideas implanted but some (not all) players failing to meet these demands. For us, I really can't see it with Ole. Nothing has changed so far apart from some pressing up front and not even in every game. We are still disjointed in the attack, and look clueless with possession. You can't look at us currently then look at the previous 5 seasons and think "yeah there's a big difference now". Klopp and Pep implanted their style quickly, and the problem was some players couldn't adapt to it, especially in defense, which costed them many games earlier, but there was a clear work that needed additions, thus patience is normal.

I appreciate if some think they are seeing progress and want to be patient with it but they need to realize many of us really don't see it at all.

Patience is fine, as long as it's not patience just for the sake of it. Of course he will get a full season but if we are still like that come December, the same clueless attacking and winning match by extreme difficulty, we can't keep talking about being patient. Patience isn't always the answer. It's only an answer when there is real work in progress and apparent style change on the pitch. I need to see proper coaching before deciding to be patient, which is fair I guess.

Today we just throw a mix of youngsters upfront in a non existent system and depended on individual brilliance and crossing to try to win the game. For the youngsters to perform well when thrown together I guess they will need first a good system set to enable them to show their talent not making a disjointed lineup and that's it.

 

[Grande]

Precisely! There'd be significantly less grumbling over our dropped points had they genuinely been the product of a noticeably out of shape, well meaning but incohesive attacking unit, still trying to get used to complicated new tactics, such as - as you say - Pepe and Klopps early sides quite clearly were... But the fact there's been absolutely no discernible improvement in style, plan, cohesion, attitude, focus, risk taking, chance creation or motivation (the worst thing about the Wolves and Soton games was how pathetically we ended them, in an almost lazy defeatist acceptance of a point) is not simply some blase reactionary attitude.. It's a legitimate concern IMO.

Legitimate concern how we are variable, yes. But to me you seem to forget or ignore the good parts. We have had many periods of good play so far this season. The first thirty minutes today was wonderful to me. A junior United attacking side who played the ball fast, switched from side to side, and produced three big chances while conceding next to nothing. If you didn’t enjoy the first minutes, I don’t know what you expect. Normally under whoever, when we’ve changed 80% of the starting line up, we’ve played slow, erratic football, which is quite normal. We started the second half good also, and again a period after getting on Mata and Lingard.

Last game against Leicester, we played well the first third of the game too, and the last part after the changes.

Apart from Chelsea game, where they took us by surprise by getting quicker out of the starting blocks, I’d say if there is a pattern, it is that we generally play pretty coherently and patterned for a while, but the players seem to get out of it for various reasons. Often Solskjær makes changes that influence the game, at least for a while.

That is what you’d expect in a learning phase, especially with younger and less experienced players. I watched our cup game vs Port Vale again recently, when Paul Scholes and co were breaking through. The best and the most parts of the football we showed today was much more exciting, and more planned by the looks of it.

 

[Mockney]

Legitimate concern how we are variable, yes. But to me you seem to forget or ignore the good parts. We have had many periods of good play so far this season. The first thirty minutes today was wonderful to me. A junior United attacking side who played the ball fast, switched from side to side, and produced three big chances while conceding next to nothing. If you didn’t enjoy the first minutes, I don’t know what you expect. Normally under whoever, when we’ve changed 80% of the starting line up, we’ve played slow, erratic football, which is quite normal. We started the second half good also, and again a period after getting on Mata and Lingard.

Last game against Leicester, we played well the first third of the game too, and the last part after the changes.

Apart from Chelsea game, where they took us by surprise by getting quicker out of the starting blocks, I’d say if there is a pattern, it is that we generally play pretty coherently and patterned for a while, but the players seem to get out of it for various reasons. Often Solskjær makes changes that influence the game, at least for a while.

That is what you’d expect in a learning phase, especially with younger and less experienced players. I watched our cup game vs Port Vale again recently, when Paul Scholes and co were breaking through. The best and the most parts of the football we showed today was much more exciting, and more planned by the looks of it.

I’d love to share your optimism, and I get where you’re coming from, but I just don’t consider 10 months a learning period anymore... 10 months is basically a whole season (including pre-season) and it’s not like we’ve changed anything up dramatically staff wise either... we’ve bought literally one new attacking player! (whose been damningly by far our best performer) and yet still haven’t managed to formulate any kind of discernible approach to increasing our chance creation....

And sure, the early period today was fun... but we were playing a side 3rd in the fecking Kazakstani league FFS! We should be beating them 4-0 at a canter.... at least! Creating a couple of chances early on is the lowest imaginable bar for even a weak Man Utd side at Old Trafford.

Yes @sport2793 we have improved our defence, but not through coaching... merely by buying some much better defenders. Which is great, don’t get me wrong, but it has little to no effect on how toothless and uninspiring we’ve been attacking wise since March. I think Ole has been genuinely good recruitment wise ... but from a coaching perspective, I just don’t see anything there at all, I’m afraid.

And once again, id love nothing more than having these posts quoted back at me mockingly in a couple years time. I really hope they are....I just, don’t see it yet!

 

[SteveW]

@SteveW you keep saying things like “Klopp finished 8th!” and “Pep didn’t succeed straight away” whilst completely ignoring my (frequently made) point about their noticeable and relatively instant impact on the playing styles of Liverpool and City... Not to mention in Klopps case the fact he reached 3 European finals in 4 years...Whilst playing really well... the kind of thing that tides over fan concerns about finishing 8th.... we are doing literally none of those things, and don’t look remotely close to doing so.

Again, I dearly hope I’m wrong.. but people can’t keep using Klopp and Pep as examples of keeping the faith, because they only prove the complete opposite, progression wise.

I'm not ignoring it. I just don't agree that that's what we should be expecting. As you said Klopp and Pep have their own specific styles of football that they will always try to impart regardless of what team they inherit. There will always be an obvious change in style pretty much straight away because of that.

I just don't think this is a prerequisite for doing a good job. It's a fashionable idea but many successful managers take a less drastic approach by building and refining what's already there and doing what the players can actually do instead of just throwing it out and starting again. I don't think Ole has the players or the leeway to try and change everything overnight. The owners haven't backed him in the transfer market enough to do it successfully and I'd imagine he'll lose his job if he finishes outside top 4.

So he's working on the players and improving them bit by bit. The bulk of our more talented players are still very young. Young players rarely become world beaters overnight. I expect the playing style to improve gradually. The defense already looks better and the attack was looking decent until Martial got injured.
Let's give him some time instead of throwing toys about because we didn't get an instant Pep or Klopp revolution.

 

[Red Dreams]

What I remember Ole saying I believe after the Chelsea match is "We have a lot of work to do yet".

Think it is far too early. It was so disappointing that we did not add at least one quality midfielder. That may come back to haunt us this season.

But we need to see how we have performed at the end of the season.

 

[haram]

The defence looks better because we paid for two of the best defenders in the league in their respective positions.

 

[Cheesy]

@SteveW you keep saying things like “Klopp finished 8th!” and “Pep didn’t succeed straight away” whilst completely ignoring my (frequently made) point about their noticeable and relatively instant impact on the playing styles and attacking verve of Liverpool and City... Not to mention in Klopps case the fact he reached 3 European finals in 4 years...Whilst playing really well... the kind of thing that tides over fan concerns about finishing 8th.... we are doing literally none of those things, and don’t look remotely close to doing so.

Again, I dearly hope I’m wrong.. but people can’t keep using Klopp and Pep as examples of keeping the faith, because they only prove the complete opposite, progression wise.

It also ignores the fact that Klopp and Pep were already top level, established managers when they went to Liverpool and City respectively. They warranted being given time to make things work. There are a lot of questions as to whether Ole's really even worthy of that, or if we're wasting our time with someone who just fundamentally isn't a particularly good manager.

 

[Mockney]

I'm not ignoring it. I just don't agree that that's what we should be expecting. As you said Klopp and Pep have their own specific styles of football that they will always try to impart regardless of what team they inherit. There will always be an obvious change in style pretty much straight away because of that.

I just don't think this is a prerequisite for doing a good job. It's a fashionable idea but many successful managers take a less drastic approach by building and refining what's already there and doing what the players can actually do instead of just throwing it out and starting again. I don't think Ole has the players or the leeway to try and change everything overnight. The owners haven't backed him in the transfer market enough to do it successfully and I'd imagine he'll lose his job if he finishes outside top 4.

So he's working on the players and improving them bit by bit. The bulk of our more talented players are still very young. Young players rarely become world beaters overnight. I expect the playing style to improve gradually. The defense already looks better and the attack was looking decent until Martial got injured.
Let's give him some time instead of throwing toys about because we didn't get an instant Pep or Klopp revolution.

That’s all eminently reasonable.... but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair to consider reasonable concern at the lack of any noticeable improvement after 10 months as “throwing toys out of the pram”.... Literally everyone wants him to succeed. There has likely never been less of an agenda against a manager. But there surely has to be point where criticism becomes valid?

 

[SteveW]

It also ignores the fact that Klopp and Pep were already top level, established managers when they went to Liverpool and City respectively. They warranted being given time to make things work. There are a lot of questions as to whether Ole's really even worthy of that, or if we're wasting our time with someone who just fundamentally isn't a particularly good manager.

Exactly. He would never be given that leeway. We saw that with the paltry net spend this summer.

 

[Foxbatt]

Moves need to be practiced on the training pitch. It seems we play off the cuff now. That's why the play in the final third is so bad.
Players without the ball move and player with the ball does not pass. Or we try fancy one touch passing in a crowded box. Players inside the box need to create space by moving away from the goal in the first instance. We don't do that.
Ole actually doesn't seem to have any idea how to get them to play at a top level.

 

[SteveW]

That’s all eminently reasonable.... but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair to consider reasonable concern at the lack of any noticeable improvement after 10 months as “throwing toys out of the pram”.... Literally everyone wants him to succeed. There has likely never been less of an agenda against a manager. But there surely has to be point where criticism becomes valid?

That's the problem though. There has been some improvement. There results haven't all gone our way but there's a stat that literally measures the quality of chances created/conceded and we are second in the league in it. We weren't last season. That's despite losing one of our only decent midfielders and selling our 80 million centre forward and not replacing either of them.

What's that down to?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Moves need to be practiced on the training pitch. It seems we play off the cuff now. That's why the play in the final third is so bad.
Players without the ball move and player with the ball does not pass. Or we try fancy one touch passing in a crowded box. Players inside the box need to create space by moving away from the goal in the first instance. We don't do that.
Ole actually doesn't seem to have any idea how to get them to play at a top level.

All of the same problems still persist.

He's had plenty of time to put his imprint on the team.

And his imprint is just kind of disheartening a bit to be honest.

We move the ball slow and don't move without the ball enough.

The only thing I'll say he's improved is our pressing/fitness.

 

[Mockney]

...there's a stat that literally measures the quality of chances created/conceded and we are second in the league in it. We weren't last season. That's despite losing one of our only decent midfielders and selling our 80 million centre forward and not replacing either of them.

What's that down to?

This one?

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_created?se=274

 

[Aouer-United]

This is the moment where I realized Ole has a long way to be top coaches, he failed to identify the obvious sign that we get in behind their fullback many time where we should aim for low cross or cutback passes, that is just easy stuff. So he didn't identify the sign and keeps instructing fullback to cross over the penalty box when we're very poor in ariel and it won't work like that.

Hopefully Ole can learn from this.

There were many moment like this all games so far in PL but they all went for a shot which could be easily saved rather than passing square or cutback pass in the penalty box. An example of Mata against Leicester, he was in the penalty box after nice play with Periera and others that allowed Mata to get in behind. Mata had an option to pass it to Rashford to finish chance with one touch but no, he went for a shot. There were many moments like this, it's just wasted opportunity.

Look like Ole has system issues, he can't figure out our creativity problem and where we can supply goal from.

 

[Greck]

Moves need to be practiced on the training pitch. It seems we play off the cuff now. That's why the play in the final third is so bad.
Players without the ball move and player with the ball does not pass. Or we try fancy one touch passing in a crowded box. Players inside the box need to create space by moving away from the goal in the first instance. We don't do that.
Ole actually doesn't seem to have any idea how to get them to play at a top level.

This is it for me. People will say if we scored more of our chances and the other team didn't we'd win the match. Well duh! Any team would do well under that condition. 6 games in its easy to ignore some of these issues but if January rolls by and we still look like this we would have to have our heads buried in sand to think all is well and there is progress

 

[croadyman]

Aside from Rashfords two misses, what other big chances did we have (I think I might have forgotten any others)? Most were long shots from distance. We've, for a long time now, struggled to actually put in place a system that induces clear goal scoring opportunities. Today was just another example of our inability to break down an opposition. Even our goal required a moment of magic from a kid starting his first(?) competitive game.

This will sound daft but I am actually more worried about facing Brighton/Villa at home than Arsenal/Liverpool because at least those two will come out and play.

Packed defences are definitely our achilles heel whether it be europa or premier league.

 

[croadyman]

That's exactly the point though. I believe when Ole speaks about the United way he's not talking about a style of play but a mentality and a ethos. It's about working hard and respecting the traditions of the club. It's about building continuity through buying young players that can play here for a long time instead of chasing quick fixes. And it's about bringing good characters who will play for the shirt.

Everyone is moaning that we don't have this singular identifiable style of football yet but I don't think that's what Ole is trying to do at all. He wants us to be flexible. Other than want them to play at a high tempo and attack I see no effort to lock us into any default system. He's trying to improve how we play in all phases of the game and not just be reliant on one style. He wants us to be able to counter attack and break down teams that sit. And he wants us to be able to defend and stop conceding so many goals.

So far, the defense is better. We are also pretty good at counter attacking. Both of those things are a reflection on the types of players we have. As is the fact that we need work against teams that sit back. Ole recognises this too, hence his attempts to sign Dybala and Erikseen this summer. But they didn't sign and we have to make do with what we have for now. At least we managed to remove a lot of the problem characters that were holding back the squad.

Right now we have a very poor group of midfielders. We need a right sided attacker. Most of our attackers are very young with a lot to learn. My expectation would be to see gradual improvements in these players and our patterns and style of play as the season goes on. I think we will get decent results and finish top 4. I'd consider that a successful season. If we can improve the crop of young players we have and get them playing some consistent football we'd be in a great position to build with 3-4 more well thought out signings.

Add a deep lying midfielder with a good range of passing and say a couple of players like Maddison and Sancho and we'd have the makings of a terrific side imo. Maybe with patience the attackers are already here even? Martial, with James, Gomes and Greenwood behind might look very tasty in another year. I certainly like the sound of that. I believe Ole is being forced to work on a small budget but has a very clear plan on what the next couple of season should look like. Going on the 3 very shrewd and well thought out signings he's made so far he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt in that regard.

We are definitely in need of a deep lying playmaker,just hope Ole isn't obsessed with that guy being british because there are options on the continent like Tonali.

 

[SteveW]

This one?

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_created?se=274

Xg. It's a more complete metric than big chances. Calculated based on likelihood to score/concede from various chances in game.

https://understat.com/league/EPL

 

[SteveW]

We are definitely in need of a deep lying playmaker,just hope Ole isn't obsessed with that guy being british because there are options on the continent like Tonali.

Agreed.

 

[Madzik_92]

Some people don’t want to come along for the ride. "Wake me up when we’ve arrived", they say.

If it were up to me, we’d leave a whole bunch of our fanbase at the next petrol station.

I am now done running the metaphor into the ground.

Yeah man, say thay when we'll finished 6-7th again under Ole every season then you look back at your comment haha. Yes it is true Ole ia rebuilding but is his pattern style of play? Don't tell than we'll need 500M to beat Astana haha. The team is clueless when we attack. Really need young manager with attacking mentality. We have enough player to cement us top 4. But under ole i don't trust him.

 

[Madzik_92]

I'm not saying Fergie didn't have a style. I'm saying the "United way" is not about a particular style. Ole isn't trying to copy any of SAFs teams from a style perspective. He's just trying to instill that mentality into the players. We've turned into Liverpool from a few years ago. He wants the players to understand what playing for United means. So he uses the SAF era as an example to follow.

I think the football will improve over time but I don't agree with your expectations for a sudden stylistic shift. He only got them fit enough to run for 90 minutes about 6 games ago. We have a shit midfield and most of our attackers are either very young or not very good. I don't see us playing flowing attacking football any time soon but I don't see any reason why we can't improve as the season goes on. Klopp ripped everything up and finished 8th. Do you really think that's the remit Ole's been given? He needs to get top 4.

He needs to focus on improving the squad, developing the young players, becoming harder to beat and better at creating chances. Then he needs to continue to make good signings. It will be a gradual process and I expect to see improvements as the season goes on. If they are still playing the same football by the end of the season I'll be unhappy but I think it's too early to complain especially when a couple missed penalties and refereeing decisions are all that's stopped us from being a few points above City.

The bolded part is incredibly reductive.

Don't blame the penalties and ref decisions. We should beat the team without even getting penalties and bother by the ref. Are we lower club that only counting on penalties to win? Haha. Trust me Ole don't have pattern style of play and we won't win anything under him.

 

[passing-wind]

There's far too much emphasis on stats in these threads. Attend games and see for yourself when teams sit back and absorb pressure how clueless we look in possession. You can galvanise the level of frustration from all the tuts / groans and complaints when much of our play leads to nothing. It's a completely different atmosphere compared to a team who are peppering the opposition goal posts throughout 90 mins. Many fans have a big misconception about what creating clear chances is.

The television pans to follow the play from the directive of where the ball is so the visibility of our attacking shape / movement is limited when watching via broadcast. But if you look at our attacking players from the stands in the final third, they seem lost and devoid of ideas often standing still when the ball is a stone throw away from them (infuriating). Contrast it to how Liverpool and City players are always in a continual phase of movement irrespective in the final third, it's got nothing to do with the quality of the players it's the foundation they are given in a system to generate space. There is however acknowledgment that we have been wasteful with individual chances and missing penalties but that sways results rather than swaying the assessment in our teams balance of play. We have already tried the don't play well and win route with Mourinho, eventually the luck will run out.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

What a shame you missed that goal then.

It's only the Europa league. Relax.

Imagine watching a team full of reserve kids and expecting champagne football...

Some people just don’t understand process.

I wasn’t purely basing it on this game, simple fact is we’ve been terrible for a very long time now under Ole barring 1 or 2 games like PSG away or Chelsea in the opening day.

You’re saying I shouldn’t expect champagne football but the only way I look at that statement is it shows just how much our fan base and the club in general have let our standards and expectations slip. I mean kids or not the fact that our fans are actually happy winning 1-0 over some nothing team from Kazakhstan I just don’t get.

 

[lysglimt]

If I'm right, the average age then was about 25 compared to almost 24 today. Not a lot of difference, still many inexperienced players in both our teams.

The only difference was we hit 5 against FC Farmers that day and struggled against FC Miners today.

You really don't see the difference do you ?

Today our experienced players were Rojo, Matic, Jones and Fred - at least 3 of these players will be gone in 12 months, maybe Fred will survive. These are players who everyone rates as not good enough. In addition to not being good enough, they have played a total of maybe 100 minutes of competitive football this season.

When we played Midt-Jylland we played Michael Carrick, Daley Blind, Ander Herrera, Juan Mata, Morgan Schneiderlin and Memphis Depay - who were more or less regulars - they all played more than 25 League games that season.

So against Astana we played 6 players with the average of 20 where only Rashford was a regular + 4 experienced players who arent good enough

Against Midt-Jylland we played 5 players with an average of 21 where Lingard and Memphis were regulars + 5 players who were part of the core of the first-team and who were playing regularly.

There is a huge difference

 

[Andycoleno9]

I am not bothered with Astana game. We played with B team against solid side. Don't underestimate clubs who play in group phases. Those are not shit teams.
But West Ham game will tell a lot. We will be nearly with best 11 and it will say a lot how we stand now. If we sit back and wait for counter against midtable squad like West Ham, we should be worried. At this moment i am not obsessed with wins but i want to see us playing good football and progress in game style. So far we don't have any of those because to set team to sit back and wait for counter can do any manager after couple of weaks in club. So no more excuses against WH.

 

[Bobcat]

Precisely! There'd be significantly less grumbling over our dropped points had they genuinely been the product of a noticeably out of shape, well meaning but incohesive attacking unit, still trying to get used to complicated new tactics, such as - as you say - Pepe and Klopps early sides quite clearly were... But the fact there's been absolutely no discernible improvement in style, plan, cohesion, attitude, focus, risk taking, chance creation or motivation (the worst thing about the Wolves and Soton games was how pathetically we ended them, in an almost lazy defeatist acceptance of a point) is not simply some blase reactionary attitude.. It's a legitimate concern IMO.

Think we need a bit more patience before we can start to see huge differences in our play. Dont get me wrong, struggling to see us break down defensive sides and hardly score in open play is a legitimate concern, but considering our circumstances i think Ole (or any other manager) need more time and transfers before we start looking like a top European side again.

Imo, the root of our problems is not actually the attack, its our MF and how completely dysfunctional it has looked in creating good openings and getting the ball forward to our attackers in good positions. Part of the problem is Pogba playing that deep, which means either Lingaard or Mata has most of the creative responsibility in the middle and they have both been well bellow par this season. Maybe moving Pogba a bit up and letting Fred/McTom be the CM pairing would fix this, but i doubt it would fix everything. Imo, having a prime Carrick or Scholes in this side would make us look 10x more dangerous

Secondly we lack a proper RW player and has done for years. Rashford is a decent counterattacking player, but is often super innefective vs parked buses, which is what we mostly have been facing so far this season. And both of our fullbacks, while great defensively, need to work on their crossing.

Third, we SUCK at set pieces and have done so for ages now. We get so many damn set pieces every game and everyone is either a tame corner attempt or a freekick that gets blasted over/into the wall. While on the other side of the pitch, we always seem in danger conceding from a set piece, either directly or following up from it.

Imo, what we really need is a top quality CM that is also a set piece specialist. That would free up Pogba more to do what hes best at, but it also means we could actually score some goals again from corners and FK's, and that would make us much more dangerous

 

[2 man midfield]

It’s really bizarre how Ole seems to have lost whatever tactical nous he had during his caretaker spell. Even if it wasn’t him doing it, and Phelan/McKenna are actually the secret tactical brains behind the operation, whoever was seeing stuff then certainly isn’t seeing it now.

 

[targetman]

I'll try to sum up my thoughts on the Ole era so far in points:

- we seem to always start the games very dominant and we create a lot of BIG chances. This is a massive credit to Ole and the coaching team.
- we need to be more clinical and put away these chances. This is influenced by team selection and the type of players we have.
- the team seems to get demotivated when we approach half time scoreless. The opposite team gets more into the game.
- we struggle against low blocks. This is my biggest criticism of Ole. We lack options and we are often one-dimentional in attack. This NEEDS to improve.
- fitness seems to be better, but we will know for sure at the end of the season.
- our direct approach is very effective. Combinations and movements are very promising. Probably the biggest thing Ole has improved.
- the squad feels more streamlined and logical put together. Youngsters involved. Obviously, this is a process that will take 2-3 windows. No complaints about the players aquired this summer.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This one?

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_created?se=274

Eesh.

Stats aside, there’s another very worrying element to what we’ve seen this season and that’s our horribly fragile mentality. Last night I was consoling myself about our inability to score against basically a pub team by telling myself it’s hard to score against a parked bus but one goal would force them to have a go and the floodgates would open.

It did indeed force them to have a go but all that happened was we suddenly looked horribly badly organised at the back, while remaining equally ponderous and ineffective going forward. And that’s happened loads this season. In every single game we’ve played there’s been long spells were we’ve looked completely rattled by the opposition starting to play some football. Shapeless and incapable of holding onto the ball and taking back control of the game. Completely reliant on individual moments from defenders to bail us out with last ditch heroics.

It’s all a bit grim really. We look fairly badly flawed in attack, defence and (especially) midfield. It’s hard to tell how much is down to how we’re being coached vs having a squad that’s not fit for purpose. Whatever, the manager is responsible for the squad and how they’re coached and I’m finding it very hard to find any kind of positive in what I’ve seen this season. Other than the performances of our new signings. And I’m fully expecting the knives to come out for AWB and Maguire when we get rinsed by City or Liverpool. Quite possibly James too (despite being absolutely terrific for us so far). Individuals are going to find it harder and harder to shine as part of a team that looks depressingly dysfunctional.

I’ll repeat the same caveat as you here. I REALLY hope I’m wrong and everything turns out great.

 

[crossy1686]

I wasn’t purely basing it on this game, simple fact is we’ve been terrible for a very long time now under Ole barring 1 or 2 games like PSG away or Chelsea in the opening day.

You’re saying I shouldn’t expect champagne football but the only way I look at that statement is it shows just how much our fan base and the club in general have let our standards and expectations slip. I mean kids or not the fact that our fans are actually happy winning 1-0 over some nothing team from Kazakhstan I just don’t get.

This is a typical response from someone who doesn’t understand that Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Absolutely no one is happy with the current state United are in so pretending to be a top red by accusing everyone else of having low expectations is ridiculous.

The team doesn’t have the players to challenge, nor play amazing football. Most of the kids Solskjaer played last night wouldn’t get anywhere near the first team in normal circumstances, so we’re gambling on them being half decent to hasten the rebuilding process, which by the way has gone well so far based on this summer but is no where near done.

If you all want to pretend you’re Roy Keane circa 2005, you’re going to be miserable for a long time yet.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Come on, that's no excuse. The reason he never is he didn't want to take the risk. Ole is taking those risks. He should be commended for that.

I haven't accepted our position, i couldn't be more opposed to it actually.

But, considering the amount of faith he is putting in the youth and the fact we bloody won the match, tonight is not the night. I have nothing to criticise Ole for tonight.

If your criticism of our style/identity is in general, then i actually agree with you, our play in transition and in the final third needs a ton of improvement. But that was never going to change tonight. Especially not after all the changes we made.

Yes it’s a criticism in general. What makes you think Ole is Capable of suddenly turning into a good manager who coaches the players in a better way?

He’s an average manager that the majority have accepted here, so we deserve the inevitable average results

 

[Grande]

That’s all eminently reasonable.... but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair to consider reasonable concern at the lack of any noticeable improvement after 10 months as “throwing toys out of the pram”.... Literally everyone wants him to succeed. There has likely never been less of an agenda against a manager. But there surely has to be point where criticism becomes valid?

I don’t at all think you are throwing toys, it’s more that you are posing valid criticisms from the same corner of the room where a big bunch has been sitting in a pram throwing toys constantly many times a day, since March.

Literally, as in literally, it’s evident that not everyone wants him to succeed. There have been ‘why didn’t we get Poch’-posts in numbers since his third game for us at least, and continually through our opening winning run already. But of course I agree that the vast majority wants him to succeed.

Where you lose me is not with your criticizms, but when you say that there are no noticable improvements. As with criticism about lack of playing style or attacking strategies, that in my view is more evidence of a lack on the part of the observer. If you don’t see them, while others, including me, and also quite a few football knowledgeables (not pundits) see them, it doesn’t mean they’re not there.

 

[7even]

Eesh.

Stats aside, there’s another very worrying element to what we’ve seen this season and that’s our horribly fragile mentality. Last night I was consoling myself about our inability to score against basically a pub team by telling myself it’s hard to score against a parked bus but one goal would force them to have a go and the floodgates would open.

It did indeed force them to have a go but all that happened was we suddenly looked horribly badly organised at the back, while remaining equally ponderous and ineffective going forward. And that’s happened loads this season. In every single game we’ve played there’s been long spells were we’ve looked completely rattled by the opposition starting to play some football. Shapeless and incapable of holding onto the ball and taking back control of the game. Completely reliant on individual moments from defenders to bail us out with last ditch heroics.

It’s all a bit grim really. We look fairly badly flawed in attack, defence and (especially) midfield. It’s hard to tell how much is down to how we’re being coached vs having a squad that’s not fit for purpose. Whatever, the manager is responsible for the squad and how they’re coached and I’m finding it very hard to find any kind of positive in what I’ve seen this season. Other than the performances of our new signings. And I’m fully expecting the knives to come out for AWB and Maguire when we get rinsed by City or Liverpool. Quite possibly James too (despite being absolutely terrific for us so far). Individuals are going to find it harder and harder to shine as part of a team that looks depressingly dysfunctional.

I’ll repeat the same caveat as you here. I REALLY hope I’m wrong and everything turns out great.

I totally agree and it’s refreshing that more and more respectable posters share their views about what they see.

Let’s see if the “defenders”, mostly originating from the same part of the world, will jump on your back too. (He he secretly smiling a little bit like Gollum)

 

[AJ10]

Lot of experts in here, Seen so many posts relating to him not being good tactically but none have offered what he did wrong.

Usual cafe rubbish.