Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[romufc]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

 

[JB08]

Last night was the first time (in a while) I could really start to sense some discontent in the ground regarding his position.

It's a funny one really - he has MASSIVELY improved our squad, but with that, brought a lot more pressure on his own position.

Regardless, I don't see him being sacked any time soon, even when the results and performances continue to be poor.

 

[MichaelRed]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

How is this why we can't play 433? That's like saying we can't play 3 at the back because we tried it with Martial and he wasn't a good centre back. We absolutely can try playing a 433, 433 isn't the issue, the issue is coaching Bruno & Pogba to play slightly deeper & not playing McTominay because he's a nothing player.

 

[Siorac]

It was a 4-3-3. Ole mentioned it in his postgame interview with MUTV that he set up with two #8s: Pogba and Bruno.

Think we can all agree it was a bit of a mess.

It definitely was a mess, yeah. We had basically no discernible shape for about 60 minutes and they ran through us at will.

 

[Holocene]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

It was a poor execution of a 4-3-3. It's also one game. Can't draw conclusions from it.

Pogba and Bruno were getting so far forward with McTominay completely on his own. That's not a functional midfield.

 

[AjaxCunian]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

We dont know how to play a 4231 either so we can give it time.

And it didnt really look like a 433 either as Bruno wasnt exactly playing as an 8.

 

[Ayoba]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

It may have been 4-3-3 on paper but it was executed so poorly. At times it was almost a 4-1-4. The midfielders were so far away from each other we resorted to long balls. In a 4-3-3 the one thing you should expect is a compact midfield, we didn't have that.

 

[Zen86]

It may have been 4-3-3 on paper but it was executed so poorly. At times it was almost a 4-1-4. The midfielders were so far away from each other we resorted to long balls. In a 4-3-3 the one thing you should expect is a compact midfield, we didn't have that.

It makes you wonder what the answer is.

The armchair managers want 4-3-3. They don't want McFred as it stifles creativity and their passing isn't up to scratch. They don't want Matic as he's somewhat of a liability and doesn't have the legs to keep up with a high-intensity or counterattacking opposition. McT can't play as a sole DM, Fred can't play as a sole DM, VdB hasn't done much to suggest he can take up the reigns in midfield. Then there's Pogba, the solution to all our midfield woes until he's actually put there and everyone remembers how dreadfully exposed we become. Beyond that we have Mata and a bunch of attacking forwards.

I know people like to think we can wave all these problems away with the magic coaching wand, but these are personnel problems first and foremost which the management team are at fault for not correcting.

 

[Blood Mage]

Last night was the first time (in a while) I could really start to sense some discontent in the ground regarding his position.

It's a funny one really - he has MASSIVELY improved our squad, but with that, brought a lot more pressure on his own position.

Regardless, I don't see him being sacked any time soon, even when the results and performances continue to be poor.

Even Fergie looked appalled when the camera cut to him at 0-1.

Ole was properly backed this summer and if he continues to underperform like this he's in trouble. He can't maintain his underdog mentality which got him this far now that Ronaldo is here.

 

[Mickeza]

And McTominay was getting dragged all over the place. So at times we were a donut team, with a big hole in the middle.

Possibly not the night to experiment with the team shape. Ronaldo mentioned the team was nervous before the game in his postgame interview (Ronaldo, Mr Mentality himself!) You have to wonder whether trying to put into place a new shape, having lost our first Champions League game and coming off the back of a Premier League loss, may have increased the nerves?

It wasn’t the night to do it because we were missing 3/4 of our back line! The only way that formation works - and I have serious doubts of it ever working with Pogba and Bruno - is with AWB covering the transition. Dalot was out of his depth but in fairness to him it was a big ask and defensively he’s always been a bit hopeless. I genuinely don’t know what we were thinking even if it did make for a great spectacle

 

[pocco]

We'll never be as good as we could be under Ole, that's pretty much set in stone now.

Problem is he's a good shield from the fans for Woodward/Glazers and they'll let him plod along as long as the money keeps coming. And it will, because any manager could take this squad to top 4. It's like purgatory. You know we'll never be bad enough to see a proper manager brought in but we'll never be good enough to not only win a big trophy but also dominate like City are doing in recent years.

I said a long time ago that this could end up being one of our worst appointments in a sense as we will always be reluctant to pull the trigger because of who he is, yet he will keep holding us back. I think that is playing out now - this team has outgrown Ole. We should be bloody brilliant to watch. I think we should have been better to watch last season too.

 

[romufc]

How is this why we can't play 433? That's like saying we can't play 3 at the back because we tried it with Martial and he wasn't a good centre back. We absolutely can try playing a 433, 433 isn't the issue, the issue is coaching Bruno & Pogba to play slightly deeper & not playing McTominay because he's a nothing player.

Okay can you name me 1 game where Martial was tried as a CB? So not playing McT, who can play there then?

I have never seen Martial play CB, maybe you might have tried it on FIFA and failed at it.

 

[romufc]

It was a poor execution of a 4-3-3. It's also one game. Can't draw conclusions from it.

Pogba and Bruno were getting so far forward with McTominay completely on his own. That's not a functional midfield.

Yeah, it was poor execution but with those players, it wasn't possible to play that well.

Bruno and Pogba were bypassed at relative ease.

 

[romufc]

We dont know how to play a 4231 either so we can give it time.

And it didnt really look like a 433 either as Bruno wasnt exactly playing as an 8.

I mean we finished 2nd with 4-2-3-1 so I am not sure where you are coming from.

It did look like 4-3-3 because Pogba was playing higher than normal.

 

[MichaelRed]

Okay can you name me 1 game where Martial was tried as a CB? So not playing McT, who can play there then?

I have never seen Martial play CB, maybe you might have tried it on FIFA and failed at it.

Of course Martial hasn't played CB, he doesn't have the skillset to play there, just like McTominay doesn't have the skillset to play as a DM. That's the point. You can't say we can't play 433 because we poorly attempted it for one game with a player that's not a DM playing as the DM.

 

[pocco]

Yeah, it was poor execution but with those players, it wasn't possible to play that well.

Bruno and Pogba were bypassed at relative ease.

Because of how they played positionally.

City won the league with De Bruyne and Silva at CM. Fergie played Alan Smith, John O'Shea, Giggs, Fabio & Rafael etc in midfield and won games. A good manager would make a very good midfield out of a combination of the players at our disposal.

Honestly some of these excuses are an embarrassment and an insult to other poster's intelligence. Trying to convince us that it's not possible to play well with our midfielders....

 

[#07]

It makes you wonder what the answer is.

The armchair managers want 4-3-3. They don't want McFred as it stifles creativity and their passing isn't up to scratch. They don't want Matic as he's somewhat of a liability and doesn't have the legs to keep up with a high-intensity or counterattacking opposition. McT can't play as a sole DM, Fred can't play as a sole DM, VdB hasn't done much to suggest he can take up the reigns in midfield. Then there's Pogba, the solution to all our midfield woes until he's actually put there and everyone remembers how dreadfully exposed we become. Beyond that we have Mata and a bunch of attacking forwards.

I know people like to think we can wave all these problems away with the magic coaching wand, but these are personnel problems first and foremost which the management team are at fault for not correcting.

Broadly speaking I agree with you.

Our squad is still a hotchpotch of different players. Ole has helped address that to some extent. However, it must also be admitted he has made some signings that have also made that problem worse too.

If you were starting with a blank canvass, designing a team to play 4-2-3-1, there is no way you would assemble a list of midfield options that look like ours.

I look to Bayern Munich, the best 4-2-3-1 team in the world, and look at the balance of their midfield two: Kimmich and Gortezka. In that midfield Kimmich sweeps up and starts all Bayern's attacks, next to him Goretzka adds the engine and quality to get up and down the pitch. When Kimmich is unavailable they have Roca to deputise. He's not as good, obviously, but he plays in the same style so Bayern's system doesn't need to shift. Likewise, nothing changed when Gortezka came off for Sabitzer against Dinamo. Cos Sabitzer is a similar enough player to Gortezka to do the same kinda things.

In our squad we have one defensive midfielder: Matic. One. And we only have two midfielders who do the same sorts of things: Fred and McTominay. This is despite playing 4-2-3-1 pretty consistently under Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole. The squad construction is lightyears away from what Bayern has done.

This is not to say that with better players Ole would turn into Nagelsmann or Hansi Flick. We know Ole's strengths are not that. But if you got Nagelsmann in a United boss, and told him you wanted to play 4-2-3-1 to suit your attacking options, I think he'd demand a massive midfield overhaul.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

The most talented squad we have had in years is going to be wasted the longer we hold on to Ole. The sooner he leaves the better. Ronaldo and Cavani wont be as good next year, Pogba might be gone, this year is a chance to challenge for everything with this squad, but we need a manager that knows how to get the most out of it , not Ole who is literally holding us back.

 

[romufc]

Of course Martial hasn't played CB, he doesn't have the skillset to play there, just like McTominay doesn't have the skillset to play as a DM. That's the point. You can't say we can't play 433 because we poorly attempted it for one game with a player that's not a DM playing as the DM.

I mean comparing a ST playing CB to a CM who plays CB for his national team is not even a fair comparison.

 

[Zen86]

Broadly speaking I agree with you.

Our squad is still a hotchpotch of different players. Ole has helped address that to some extent. However, it must also be admitted he has made some signings that have also made that problem worse too.

If you were starting with a blank canvass, designing a team to play 4-2-3-1, there is no way you would assemble a list of midfield options that look like ours.

I look to Bayern Munich, the best 4-2-3-1 team in the world, and look at the balance of their midfield two: Kimmich and Gortezka. In that midfield Kimmich sweeps up and starts all Bayern's attacks, next to him Goretzka adds the engine and quality to get up and down the pitch. When Kimmich is unavailable they have Roca to deputise. He's not as good, obviously, but he plays in the same style so Bayern's system doesn't need to shift. Likewise, nothing changed when Gortezka came off for Sabitzer against Dinamo. Cos Sabitzer is a similar enough player to Gortezka to do the same kinda things.

In our squad we have one defensive midfielder: Matic. One. And we only have two midfielders who do the same sorts of things: Fred and McTominay. This is despite playing 4-2-3-1 pretty consistently under Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole. The squad construction is lightyears away from what Bayern has done.

This is not to say that with better players Ole would turn into Nagelsmann or Hansi Flick. We know Ole's strengths are not that. But if you got Nagelsmann in a United boss, and told him you wanted to play 4-2-3-1 to suit your attacking options, I think he'd demand a massive midfield overhaul.

Indeed.

The usual kickback is that we shouldn't expect to have a world class player in every position. And we absolutely shouldn't. We shouldn't need to have a top 5 midfielder in every position, but we do need players who can actually play the position. We don't even have that. And this is the midfield we're talking about here, where games are increasingly won and lost in the modern game.

We've been through this cycle several times before and always arrive at the same outcome; McTominay and Fred. They're the most solid and stable midfield combination we have by far, yet they're a big factor in our inability to score against teams who set up defensively against us. The McFred combo receives universal condemnation as "negative" but as soon as we add one of our other candidates in the middle instead, we're run ragged.

 

[MichaelRed]

I mean comparing a ST playing CB to a CM who plays CB for his national team is not even a fair comparison.

It was obviously an exaggerated example. You don't need to take it so literally.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

3 points against a gritty Villarreal. Now beat Everton, and do some proper tactical work during the break. The defense needs fixing ASAP.

Can't wait for the long winning/unbeaten run to come, starting this weekend! Onwards and upwards!

 

[#07]

Indeed.

The usual kickback is that we shouldn't expect to have a world class player in every position. And we absolutely shouldn't. We shouldn't need to have a top 5 midfielder in every position, but we do need players who can actually play the position. We don't even have that. And this is the midfield we're talking about here, where games are increasingly won and lost in the modern game.

We've been through this cycle several times before and always arrive at the same outcome; McTominay and Fred. They're the most solid and stable midfield combination we have by far, yet they're a big factor in our inability to score against teams who set up defensively against us. The McFred combo receives universal condemnation as "negative" but as soon as we add one of our other candidates in the middle instead, we're run ragged.

The statement: 'We shouldn't expect to have a world class player in every position,' genuinely does my head in. Because, as you say, nobody is asking for that. Just square pegs for square spaces, round rods for round holes.

As you say, we need players who can actually do the job and we don't have them. We end up with McFred because their strengths half compensate for their weaknesses. However, in truth, neither Fred or McTominay is the level we'd want. Even if they could both do the job of poundshop Gortezka.

 

[soapythecat]

I don’t think the players trust in his tactic/set up. They look nervous and lost at times and perhaps that is because they don’t buy in to what is being instructed. Maybe they expect us to try and attack more rather than a negative approach. Given Ronaldo talking about nerves and Bruno taking to social media to apologise - these aren’t what you expect from these players and I think it’s because they don’t buy into Ole’s weak approach. Why would Ronaldo take tactical advice from McKenna? What has he achieved to push his thoughts on to elite players? Pogba at FT too - Ole doesn’t have a grip of this squad and with average results continuing the discontent with players like VdB will make it worse. He’s done.

 

[BorisManUtd]

Our fixtures from mid October to December are as tough as it gets, that month and a half period will define our season.

 

[fergieisold]

I’d love to see how the game would pan out with shaw and awb in the side.

 

[Borys]

So we saw a formation that alot of people have called for, 4-3-3 and it was very bad. This is why we cannot play this formation with the players we have.

McTominay has no idea how to play DM and DLP, even when Matic came on he looked lost.

In 4-3-3 you have 3 players close to each other in central areas, that's not how we played yesterday. But I realized recently an awful lot of people (on this particular forum, not saying it's you) think 4-3-3 means you play two attacking midfielders (what we did yesterday) and consider it more "attacking" than the so called "double pivot".
We could play 4-3-3 but not with Bruno and Pogba. It means sacrificing one attacker for a midfielder what is not happening under current manager. Pressure on Ole also plays a part, because it happens we have 0 high profile players in midfield and 6 high profile players in attack, so that's pushing him into those unbalanced setups.

 

[Zen86]

The statement: 'We shouldn't expect to have a world class player in every position,' genuinely does my head in. Because, as you say, nobody is asking for that. Just square pegs for square spaces, round rods for round holes.

As you say, we need players who can actually do the job and we don't have them. We end up with McFred because their strengths half compensate for their weaknesses. However, in truth, neither Fred or McTominay is the level we'd want. Even if they could both do the job of poundshop Gortezka.

Yep. I'm sure someone will come in and highlight City's lack of a striker as if it's in any way comparable to the situation we have. It's not. A weak midfield compromises both defence and offence. And if you start looking shaky at the back the whole team will lose confidence and crumble. We've been in that situation countless times, last night included.

 

[bond19821982]

The Ole in crowd will cherish the result and the Ole out crowd will tear down the performance.

Nothing to see here

The state of us when you had to literally cherish that moment against Villarreal at home. We trolled Klopp for cheering their draw against Westbrom.

 

[city-puma]

Bruno is not a problem with a two-8 setup. It’s pogba unfortunately even though he gave his all. The mobility required is crucial.
We played such a setup in the second part of the league game against west ham, but we have the starting back four at that time and Varane excelled in pushing high up the field. Against Villarreal, the players stepping in were poorly gelled.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

The state of us when you had to literally cherish that moment against Villarreal at home. We trolled Klopp for cheering their draw against Westbrom.

If you can't cheer an injury time winner then I wonder if you ever enjoy football.

 

[Zen86]

In 4-3-3 you have 3 players close to each other in central areas, that's not how we played yesterday. But I realized recently an awful lot of people (on this particular forum, not saying it's you) think 4-3-3 means you play two attacking midfielders (what we did yesterday) and consider it more "attacking" than the so called "double pivot".
We could play 4-3-3 but not with Bruno and Pogba. It means sacrificing one attacker for a midfielder what is not happening under current manager. Pressure on Ole also plays a part, because it happens we have 0 high profile players in midfield and 6 high profile players in attack, so that's pushing him into those unbalanced setups.

Definitely a big factor, although dare I say it Ole hasn't helped himself there by bringing in Sancho over a midfielder.

 

[Borys]

Definitely a big factor, although dare I say it Ole hasn't helped himself there by bringing in Sancho over a midfielder.

Sancho and Ronaldo, we're just getting what's available rather than building a balanced squad.
We should've sold Pogba (if there was any sensible offer) and get a decent, not even world class midfielder. Next window will be more difficult, we will be skinned of money because everybody knows we're after 2 CMs.

 

[Chaky_Best]

Think Ole was right in his choice playing a midfielder higher up on the pitch to contain Parejo. BUT Pogba failed him.

If we have the average positioning available, I would bet on Killmonger playing higher than Bruno, and that's not good enough.

Anyway his changes were the rights and are to underligned

 

[Xaviboy]

I feel we are very close to a hammering off someone soon like the spurs game last season. He is a very lucky manager. The chances we are conceding against us and making it easy for other teams to open us up. Just hope we don't get bashed few times over next few fixtures.

 

[MadMike]

You can not play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno as #8s and McTominay as CDM and not expect teams to cut through your midfield. It's like 4-1-4-1 like others mentioned. You need at least 2 CMs that will do a lot of hard, thankless work in midfield and McTominay isn't even one of them.

Equally, having Rice instead of McTominay won't magically solve the issue of our team looking disjointed and playing slow, pondering football. If you believe that, I have a unicorn to sell you too.

We have a conundrum in midfield which is exacerbated by the fact the whole team doesn't show any signs of playing like a cohesive unit.

 

[MadMike]

Think Ole was right in his choice playing a midfielder higher up on the pitch to contain Parejo. BUT Pogba failed him.

If we have the average positioning available, I would bet on Killmonger playing higher than Bruno, and that's not good enough.

Anyway his changes were the rights and are to underligned

Pogba has been here for 5 years and Ole for nearly 3 of those. Everyone of us could have told him that Pogba has many virtues, but putting in disciplined, consistent performances in CM isn't one of them.

If he doesn't know how that about Pogba yet, the fault is no longer with Pogba.

 

[Jezpeza]

You can not play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno as #8s and McTominay as CDM and not expect teams to cut through your midfield. It's like 4-1-4-1 like others mentioned. You need at least 2 CMs that will do a lot of work in midfield and McTominay isn't even one of them.

Equally, having Rice instead of McTominay won't magically solve the issue of our team looking disjointed and playing slow, pondering football. If you believe that, I have a unicorn to sell you too.

We have a conundrum in midfield which is exacerbated by the fact the whole team doesn't show any signs of playing like a cohesive unit.

I genuinely think we dont have the right midfield options to execute 4231 or 433. Mcfred end up pressed into our back 4 and dont have the quality to play the ball out. Matic is a good passer but immobile. Then all of our other players, Pogba, Lingard, DVB, Bruno want to be the 10 in a 4231. Pogba and DVB have looked dreaful in the deeper role. Pogba isnt a left midfielder either.

For me, In an ideal world we sign two class midfielders to replace mcfred and rotate pogba and bruno. I think the bruno and pogba in the same team with someone behind comes from the ‘433 holding’ formation on FIFA 21. In reality we will be carved to bits playing that essentially because we will be playing 415.

 

[MichaelRed]

In 4-3-3 you have 3 players close to each other in central areas, that's not how we played yesterday. But I realized recently an awful lot of people (on this particular forum, not saying it's you) think 4-3-3 means you play two attacking midfielders (what we did yesterday) and consider it more "attacking" than the so called "double pivot".
We could play 4-3-3 but not with Bruno and Pogba. It means sacrificing one attacker for a midfielder what is not happening under current manager. Pressure on Ole also plays a part, because it happens we have 0 high profile players in midfield and 6 high profile players in attack, so that's pushing him into those unbalanced setups.

I disagree with this. Bruno played in a 3 man midfield at Sporting. Pogba played in a 3 at Juve & plays in a 3 for France. There's absolutely no issue with them playing in a 433, the reason they can't do it for United is the coaching is piss poor.

 

[MadMike]

I genuinely think we dont have the right midfield options to execute 4231 or 433. Mcfred end up pressed into our back 4 and dont have the quality to play the ball out. Matic is a good passer but immobile. Then all of our other players, Pogba, Lingard, DVB, Bruno want to be the 10 in a 4231. Pogba and DVB have looked dreaful in the deeper role. Pogba isnt a left midfielder either.

For me, In an ideal world we sign two class midfielders to replace mcfred and rotate pogba and bruno. I think the bruno and pogba in the same team with someone behind comes from the ‘433 holding’ formation on FIFA 21. In reality we will be carved to bits playing that essentially because we will be playing 415.

Pogba and Bruno are not players to be rotated. If they can't play in the same XI, then 1 should go. This is the conundrum everyone keeps talking about Pogba. We're shoehorning him in LM in a lot of games because he's not a reliable CM and he doesn't play better than Bruno in CAM role.

I think adding 1 CDM to replace the aging Matic, will allow us to play the CDM, one DVB/Fred/McT and Bruno quite well in a midfield trio.