Ole Gunnar Solskjær | Permanent manager

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Samid, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Jun 20, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    Why do you keep ignoring my initial stipulation that I was talking about the modern game? You’ve just cited 3 dead managers, one of which could play as a midfielder at a high level. The last one is retired since 6 years and was a one-off genius who has defied logic plenty of times through his sheer brilliance.
  2. Jun 20, 2019

    Steven-UK New Member

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    Zidane was handed a gold plated, world class football team on a diamond-encrusted platter.

    Ole has been handed a bag of rusted tools, and a tin of WD40.
  3. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    I named one when you talked about modern game and the next post didnt look like you were talking about modern game.
  4. Jun 20, 2019

    TRUERED89 New Member

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    Kenny Dalglish? Not a great obviously but won the PL managing Blackburn and was an attacker!
  5. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Mancini too, won PL, Serie A and also cups before joining Inter.
  6. Jun 20, 2019

    TRUERED89 New Member

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    Exactly, football intelligence isn't just attributed to midfielders and defenders, as an attacker/striker you've got the most pressure on you to perform, these guys generally have to be just as intelligent as anyone else on the pitch. No dumb ass players will last at big clubs so for me it doesn't matter what position you played, if you understand the game, can motivate/man manage and be a true leader your position is irrelevant in terms of being a good manager.
  7. Jun 20, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    I think this is the first valid example that fit the ’modern’ criteria I clearly laid out. Really didn’t think I would need to explicitly repeat it in every post.

    Still, the trend is definitely there.

    Football has moved on from the 80’s and 90’s and we need to stop looking at what worked then. We’re living enough in the past as it is.

    I understand it can be hard to accept that a newbie might present a perspective you hadn’t necessarily thought of, but please stop moving the goalposts to align with your existing beliefs.
  8. Jun 20, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    Did the biggest club in England offer them cash few others could match? It has nothing to do with Woodward.
  9. Jun 20, 2019

    fallengt Full Member

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    Yes, it was. Statistically
    Your mind only sees the one time it worked but ignores the other hundred times it failed.

    Also it wasn't stroke of genius from Laporta. Guardiola wasn't even first choice.
  10. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    So you are saying we have to shortlist the managers based on their playing position?
  11. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Exactly. There is certain trend with most successful managers being midfielders but it means nothing, it all depends on individuals.
  12. Jun 20, 2019

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    Not sure you can compare the likes of Scholes, Neville etc with the hangers-on we have now.
  13. Jun 20, 2019

    TRUERED89 New Member

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    Nope no comparison whatsoever, I just feel like talented/world class British players will stay their whole career, as opposed to imports that just wont, they'll either retire early or leave for the big 2 in Spain..
  14. Jun 20, 2019

    matt10000 New Member

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    Well by 'delineating' it to the modern era is convenient as it then ignores the fact that the two most successful British managers of all time were strikers - SAF and Brian Clough!
  15. Jun 20, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    Or maybe not draw constant parallels between Ole and Guardiola/Zidane like many have done for months now. Zidane and Guardiola are world legends for playing in positions that require excellent football intelligence. Ole is a club legend for being a poacher.

    Henry is on record saying that when he got Guardiola as coach late in his career, it was like ”learning to play football again”.

    And that’s in 2008 when Guardiola didn’t have a decade of top flight coaching experience like he does now. He reviolutized football drawing simply on his incredible football intelligence as a midfielder.

    Edit: since my newbie posts are up, I’ll have to reply to the post below here and call it a day.

    I think you are straw manning it a bit too much for me right now, so let me just lay down a list of the current top managers. The ones decent clubs might want to hire right now.

    Tier 1 managers:
    Guardiola: Central midfielder.
    Pochettino: Central defender.
    Zidane: Central midfielder.
    Klopp: Central defender/attacker.
    Allegri: Central midfielder.
    Conte: Central midfielder.
    Simeone: Central midfielder.
    Thomas Tuchel: Central midfielder.
    Carlo Ancelotti: Central midfielder.

    Tier 2 managers:
    Unai Emery: Central midfielder.
    Maurizio Sarri: Central defender.
    Jose Mourinho: Central midfielder.
    Didier Deschamps: Central midfielder.
    Lucien Favre: Central midfielder.
    Marco Rose: Central defender.
    Erik ten Hag: Central defender.

    So one half of an attacker in this list.

    (This was my honest attempt at listing all tier 1 and 2 managers right now with Pep, Klopp and Poch obviously being in a class of their own. I genuinely did not exclude anyone because he didn’t fit ”the narrative”. Might have forgot someone, however.)
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  16. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Not sure which is more stupid, constant comparison of Ole's route with Zidane/Pep or narrowing down "footaball intelligence" to one position.

    Last year CL winner Klopp was a forward all his career except last few season.
    Before that 3 CL winners was Zidane who was attacking mid than CM
    Before that CL winner was Luis Enrique who played as both attacker and midfielder
    Before that CL winner was Jupp Heynckes who was a forward.

    The coaches who revolutionized the game with total football were both attackers.

    You are taking Pep and trying to build a narrative. Scholes was way better midfielder and intelligent player but it didn't work out for him. There are many midfielders who had football intelligence who didn't do much in management. Football management is more than just 'Football Intelligence'.
  17. Jun 20, 2019

    dove Full Member

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    Constant comparisons with Pep really annoys me. Firstly, it is extremely rare that it works, we should stop desperately looking for parallels with something that happens once in a million times. Secondly, clubs like Real, Barca, Bayern and Juve nowadays can take a risk with appointing lesser known or young managers as the absolute worst that can happen is them finishing 2nd, or if the season is absolutely disastrous then 3rd. Hardly any damage done. Sack the manager and try again. Meanwhile we are fecked because a bad season for us is finishing 6th and missing out on CL which not only damages our reputation, chances to attract top top players but also unsettles many players who feel they are too big to play in EL. Ole might turn it around no one knows but comparing him with Zidane, Pep or Klopp at this point is an insult to these 3.
  18. Jun 20, 2019

    momo83 New Member

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    Ole’s been in management for about 10 years. He’s the same age group as Pep so 10 years ago he would have been a new young manager, just like Pep when he started. To now call Ole Young and New is bull

    So if after 10 years in management you yourself still class Ole as “unproven” what does that tell you about him? Bearing in mind he has managed in the premier league before.
  19. Jun 20, 2019

    soaphroniscuss New Member

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    :nono: Hopefully that's just self-effacing jest. What on Earth has being a "newbie" got to do with anything?
  20. Jun 20, 2019

    matt10000 New Member

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    Football management is more than just Football Intelligence. Creating an atmosphere of confidence, self belief, willingness to play for the team is probably the most important factor. The greatest managers were able to do this. SAF was a genius at this and employed help with the football intelligence side when he wanted it (carlos queroz was employed to help approach to Champions League). If you have a great football brain and not able to do the above then you will fail. If you can do the above and employ help with football intelligence then you can do the job. If you can do both even better.
  21. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    :lol: Talk about straw man and moving goal posts when the initial post was
    Last CL winners are Klopp, Zidane, Luis Enrique, Jupp Heynckes who all played as attackers/attacking mids. Now posting managers who are successful and played as CM means nothing as that's not the point. It's your initial point and your other post about "Football Intelligence" which is just nonsense.

    If you said successful managers who played as CM/CB > Successful managers who played as attackers then yes as we can see the numbers. When you come up with "I don't think any attacker is a success in modern game" then it's just nonsense.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  22. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Exactly. Football intelligence is part of it and there is so more more to football management. Also teaching what you know and implementing is also biggest challenge.
  23. Jun 20, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    :lol:
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  24. Jun 20, 2019

    Eriku Full Member

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    Some years ago you could’ve said "sure, someone who’s only managed RM Castilla is better than the guy who made Molde win their first league gold ever".

    Both ways of arguing are stupid.

    And obviously I reckon Ole would do better with the Real team, they had quality at every position when Zizou did his CL hattrick. You can’t compare their situations.
  25. Jun 20, 2019

    momo83 New Member

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    Actually some years ago “who knows” would have been the wise thing. One had already been in management for several years, including a stint the EPL, and the other was stepping into his first senior management role where the “Pep” comparison that people falsely make with Ole would have been a genuine and fair comparison to make.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  26. Jun 20, 2019

    carvajal Full Member

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    no, not many, and I do not think he would agree to bring Ceballos or Theo.
    In the signings of Brazilians he does not intervene. It is Calafat, the head of south american football, who I imagine would use Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo, for some meeting.
  27. Jun 20, 2019

    Eriku Full Member

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    The Pep comparison only means to highlight that Ole is less of a long-shot, and Pep stepped into a gig that was far more set for success. Much like Zidane. Ole is asked to achieve greatness on a budget, for a team languishing after an ill-conceived hand-over which wound up gutting our institutional memory, saw an exodus of experienced winners and leaders, and has since been playing catch up by «backing» successors with a pedigree.

    People are being far too harsh on Ole, because like the class of 92, Vidic, Rio, Rooney, etc., he has been a part of a squad that Fergie imbued his winning mentality to. I want to give him a chance, there’s a lot to be gained from certain basics about the work mentality required to win in football, and Ole knows it.
  28. Jun 21, 2019

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    For the umpteenth time there's absolutely no correlation between Ole and Pep.

    1. Pep spent coaching 1 years in the reserves, Ole 3.
    2. Pep's first stint was Barca where he won the league right away. Ole managed in Norway and not a single top team approached him for what is 10 years spent in management.
    3. Pep has clear style of possession, tiki taka based football that is widely known from his first year in management. Ole's style is pashun, running and counter attacking? Literally what thousands of managers can claim.
    4. Pep was understudy of Cruyff and developed most of his ideas and was closely working with him from the off, asking advice. Ole is working with Phelan.
    5. Barcelona have proper structure that was developed by Cruyff since the 90's. We don't even have a DoF.
    6. Pep inherited a fantastic team and fantastic young core, some of who he has worked the year prior, Ole was managing the reserves 10 years ago, with our academy and reserves currently in shambles thanks to Butt and Sbragia.
    7. La Liga at the time and during Pep's reign was pretty much 2 horse race (before Simeone emerging). EPL is highly competitive for the 4th place with 5-6 teams genuinely having a shot at it, let alone us challenging for the title.
    8. Barcelona's transfer strategy was also well in place, whilst ours is led by a muppet.

    Should I go on?
  29. Jun 21, 2019

    Leif GW New Member

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    Guardiola isn't a 'world legend' as a player, that's silly. He was a very good player, but not a true great.
  30. Jun 21, 2019

    UnofficialDevil Anti Scottish

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    Not anti Scotish, just posted a lot against Moyes.
    Good post.
  31. Jun 21, 2019

    fallengt Full Member

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    No one would've ever said that because Pep had won Treble before Ole even set foot in Molde.
  32. Jun 21, 2019

    Eriku Full Member

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    I cocked up on the chronology, fair enough.

    Call it a hypothetical, then.
  33. Jun 21, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Am I missing something here? @Eriku you said "RM Castilla" which means Zidane. Ole won Norway league title before Zidane landed Madrid job
  34. Jun 21, 2019

    fallengt Full Member

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    Tunnel vision. My bad :houllier:
    The whole page is about Ole and Pep's history.
  35. Jun 21, 2019

    ColvaleGoa Full Member

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    Who cares. Ole has got it tough. Woodward must have shown him the list of potential players wanting to come to United,but didn't tell him we have no plans of buying any of them.:wenger::D.

    Poor Ole got suckered and now is going to pay the price of the board and Glazers greed. His new brief will be "Turn Sanchez into the new Ronaldo", Young into Cafu and so on so forth.

    I am not at all disillusioned.:mad:
  36. Jun 21, 2019

    Eriku Full Member

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    Hah, thanks, I forgot the full context of my own post and just assume he was interpreting me accurately.
  37. Jun 21, 2019

    Vissy New Member

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    Ole's preferred way of setting up his team takes a lot of inspiration from the likes of Guardiola, who is someone he has even stated himself to be a chief inspiration. This is the case for several managers across the world for obvious reasons. I think people can calm down with the claims that he doesn't understand football and is just a passion pace counterattack merchant. He's got 10+ years of experience in management and several successful stints at that. Ultimately we'll see his football next season and an improved version on the season after that if he's given that time and the proper players to implement it. He can hardly make his teams play like prime Barca if he's got a midfield of Pogba, McTominay and Fred.
  38. Jun 21, 2019

    Grande Full Member

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    Not really. Saying there are no parallels between Pep, Zizou and Ole is stupid, because there clearly are parallels, at the same times as there are differences. It’s just not very relevant.

    Yes, you can say: They all played for, coached youth and managed at the same big club, they were all known to be intelligent players who analyzed the games more than the other players did, they all won leagues and CL as players, played internationals and WCs, they were all understudies of great coaches/managers, and then you could list all the differences - but the point is none of this is very relevant to why Pep and Zizou is mentioned in these discussions.

    The comparisons drawn are actually between the choices of Laporte, Lopez and Woodward (and their advisers!) in their situation of choosing an unproven manager and former player. And between the grounds for criticism and doom-mongery among fans at the moment of these three appointments.

    Did Laporte know what he was doing, or did he just take a one-in-a-million punt? Did his advisers who knew Barca and knew Pep tell him reasons apart from trophy count that convinced him it wasn’t a maniacal choice to sack a CL winner to appoint a junior team coach? Maybe so. Did the fans know all these behind-the-scenes-things Laporte and the rest of his crew knew? Probably only to a very limited degree. Probably some where vocal about a former legend with the right mettle and philisophy being a brilliant choice, probably even more said it was a crazy experiment to entrust a possible golden era team to a rookie with no managment/coaching experience to speak of.

    In hindsight the latter are made to look the fools, and they indeed have much in common with the people judging Solskjær before he has been given time to show what the Old Trafford hierarchy have seen in him. But also the former were likely fools, what did they know if it would work, without working the corridors of the club, without seeing Pep at the training ground as a player, as a junior coach? It could be a genial appointment, but if the basis were only the factors that a fan has access too, it would likely have been a fool who who thought that a likely recipe for success.

    The only valid point in bringng up this comparison, is in counter to people claiming they know it’s a bad appointment based on lack of proven, accessible-to-all credentials.
  39. Jun 25, 2019

    Yakuza_devils Full Member

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    So last year terrible run of form was due to fitness issue of the players. Ole promised to built up their fitness level and serious about it to start 1 July including many new signings to train and gel with the team. This is the summer of major rebuilding that we were promised.

    We are running out of time and so far only signed one unknown player. Pray hard!
  40. Jun 25, 2019

    macheda14 Full Member

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    It's a stupid comparison to make, yes, but you've actually just done away with being objective and made a few terrible points here.