Only Fools and Horses Christmas Special Draft Finale - Himann vs Edgar

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team Professor


Tactics: 3-4-2-1 counter attacking setup

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Defensive phase

Spoiler

Defensive operation of the system

• Medium defensive block.
• Defensive formation is 5-3-2 or 5-2-3 depending on the position of the ball.
• Press starts deeper but all players are involved.
• The goal is quick turnover and transition to attack using counterattacks.

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Attacking phase

Spoiler

Attacking operation of the system

• Becomes a 3-2-5 or a 3-3-4 in attack.
• Krol more defensive than Alves.
• CMs offer support to deal with counters, but also provide support in attack to break down oppositions.

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Front 3 operation

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Roberto Baggio

• In a counter, Baggio is one of the main ball carriers: drawing CMs towards him as he makes his runs. This compilation encompasses that skill nicely.
  
  
• One of his primary jobs is to link up play and feed Eusebio. This video is a good compilation of him that showcases his link up play and teamwork.
  
  
• When breaking teams down, Baggio drops deeper and acts as a playmaker. This video is a nice compilation of his skills as a playmaker.
  

Credit to @Joga Bonito for the videos - really lovely work from him.

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Uwe Seeler

Going into the final round, I had a sneaky feeling I'd be able to pick up one player and Seeler was at the top of my list. Why Seeler? Well, let me take you back to the pre-match press conference before the PSG game featuring Donny van de Beek.

“ I think it’s really important [to have him], especially for me, as it gives you extra space in the box as defenders look more for these strikers.

It gives extra space for our midfielders.”

As he said this, I was thinking: "this is just the kind of thing I need to give more space for Baggio and Eusebio to operate in the finals".

Enter Uwe Seeler. I've seen a fair number of games of his now, sometimes to watch other players. In every game he catches my eye though - the man never rests! Whether he has the ball or not, he's constantly moving, drawing defenders towards him or running between defenders. It's like he never lets the defence rest and it really takes defenders away from other attackers. He's also a goal threat in his own right and can get on the end of passes. He's the perfect player to provide a platform for others to shine. I won't bore you with compilations just yet, I think there's a video limit per post so I won't throw them in as yet.


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Eusebio

Enter the last member of my 3-pronged attack: The Black Panther!

Let me go back to the QF stage where there was a short discussion between my opponent today @Edgar Allan Pillow and @Synco

For me his best position is Inside Right and secondary position would be Inside Left. His best ability is his ability to beat defenders with pace and bring the ball up from the deep. Being stuck as CF upfront doesn't utilize his attributes at all.

Yeah, getting stuck up front as a target man wouldn't be good at all. But as I said, that's not necessarily what a CF does, depending on the setup. So for me the question is more about role than position. What I certainly agree with, whatever the position/role, is that he should have freedom to make runs from deep, take on defenders, etc.

Interesting points, and they're quite right. Eusebio is at his best running in from deep into the spaces created. Once he gets going, he doesn't look very stoppable to me and he is indeed like dealing with a Black Panther for any defence. With Seeler drawing defenders to him, and Baggio drawing the midfield towards him, this will leave Eusebio open to receive the ball and run at the opposition. I think he's a GOAT that doesn't get enough credit sometimes and this is his chance to shine and burn the opposition to ashes. Will leave you with a nice compilation of him doing just that.



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Peak years

• Uwe Seeler (1960 - 1963)
• Eusebio (1964 - 1967)
• Roberto Baggio (1992 - 1995),
• Rainer Bonhof (1974 - 1977)
• Patrick Vieira (2000 - 2003)
• Dani Alves (2009 - 2011)
• Ruud Krol (1974 - 1977)
• Jurgen Kohler (1991 - 1994)
• Diego Godin (2013 - 2016)
• Cesar Azpilicueta (2013 - 2016)
• Jan Oblak (2015 - 2018)

Team Edgar

Formation: 4-2-3-1. Solid defensively with a strong spine and with quick wingers for Platini to shine.

Defence:

+ Van Der Sar - GOAT. Legend!
+ Proven complementary central defensive duo in Terry / Carvalho.
+ Balanced fullbacks in Evra and Cohen. Solid defensively and can contribute to attack.
+ Monster Defensive shield in Rijkaard and Edwards.

Offence:

+ Great platform for Platini and surrounded by talent who can enhance his game.
+ All GOAT midfield that will dominate any opponent! Dynamic Edwards & Rijkaard are an incomparable midfield engine providing ample support to attack.
+ Powerful, dynamic, complete CF in Kempes able to score and provide assists.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Himannv @Edgar Allan Pillow good luck

 

[Physiocrat]

Both teams are great although Himan could maybe have used more of a classic sweeper in place of Godin. Will watch the debate with interest.

 

[Himannv]

Good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow and thanks for setting it up @Šjor Bepo

 

[Himannv]

I get a sneaky feeling that if @Edgar Allan Pillow was a neutral, he'd vote for my team here.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Good luck guys.

 

[2mufc0]

Great teams, well done.

 

[Synco]

Fantastic front three from @Himannv. Seeler and Baggio are the right types of partners to give Eusebio the freedom to move around and wreak havoc. Alves and Krol* as wide threats complement them very well. With Vieria and Bonhof behind them, that's just a marvelous attacking unit.

Only potential weakness I see is that the back three & GK aren't special in terms of playmaking - fine technically, but it's clearly a defense first setup. If Edgar went for high pressing tactics, he might be able to trouble Himann's buildup. But it doesn't look like he does, and it's probably better that way with Terry anyway.

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* I don't think giving him a more defensive role than Alves is really necessary, tbh - the setup is super-solid, and the wingbacks' attacking contribution is one a great thing about this team. Krol is a proper two-way player in any case.

 

[Himannv]

So, I really like EAP's team but the biggest drawback I see is the pairing of Best and Platini. I've built a few lineups around Platini and I've watched quite a bit of him, especially during his peak years and he was always at his best when he was the main man and when everything went through him. He was great as a playmaker and goal scorer and I think he's at his best with mobile players who play second fiddle and work off the ball like with Boniek, Rossi, and Bettega or with Six and Lacombe.

At his best, Georgie Best played second fiddle to absolutely nobody. Even Charlton, who plays in the same position as Platini here commented on it a few times. Here is one such quote:

Yes, he could also be frustrating. He held on to the ball for too long: you would get yourself in to a great position and hope he would pass the ball, but most of the time he didn’t.

For me, Charlton was a player who did not always need to be the main man in his team, but I'm not quite as convinced about Platini. I mean, a version of Best with different peak years might have worked but I'm not convinced that the Best of 68 - 71 was that kind of player.

They're both great players and I think they can play together, but for me, this is not an ideal pairing for Platini.

 

[Synco]

Great team from Edgar as well. The Rijkaard/Edwards duo behind Platini is enormous, as complete as it gets. Both have massive defensive presence, they can take turns attacking, and Rijkaard has a proper long ball game to feed the wings. Lots of interplay possibilities with the front four.

I said it at some earlier point, I think Kempes would be a good modern CF. I see him complement his fellow attacking players' movement and creativity well. Like Edgar said, Platini should have fun in this side.

Really good matchup, should be an interesting discussion. Certainly lots to do for both defenses.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Genuine lack of a quality playmaker from deep in himannv's team

 

[Himannv]

Fantastic front three from @Himannv. Seeler and Baggio are the right types of partners to give Eusebio the freedom to move around and wreak havoc. Alves and Krol* as wide threats complement them very well. With Vieria and Bonhof behind them, that's just a marvelous attacking unit.

Only potential weakness I see is that the back three & GK aren't special in terms of playmaking - fine technically, but it's clearly a defense first setup. If Edgar went for high pressing tactics, he might be able to trouble Himann's buildup. But it doesn't look like he does, and it's probably better that way with Terry anyway.

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* I don't think giving him a more defensive role than Alves is really necessary, tbh - the setup is super-solid, and the wingbacks' attacking contribution is one a great thing about this team. Krol is a proper two-way player in any case.

Thanks for the comment. I think the attack will function very well here. Eusebio has the perfect setup to thrive and I think it's time he gets his dues in drafts.

Regarding the defense, this is very much a counterattacking setup for most part, and we're not looking for something Beckenbaueresque from the backline with such tactics. Having said that, Kohler, Godin, and Azpi are not exactly mugs with the ball at their feet. All three of them have played in defensive setups that utilize the counter and are more than up to the task in my opinion.

 

[Himannv]

Genuine lack of a quality playmaker from deep in himannv's team

Addressed this in my response to Synco. We'll mostly be playing on the counter and there is less need for such a player. The three I have at the back are all decent enough on the ball to transition quickly and pass if necessary - nothing fancy of course. We will mostly not look at playing out from the back unless we see more of the ball than expected.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Considering player fit, Godin isn't a back 3 sweeper. He lacks the pace and mobility. And Krol really isn't a wingback. Add in the weakest player on pitch in Azpi there, you've multiple suboptimal players which will weaken the defence overall.

I have a feeling Best would be facing Azpi more often than not and that would end just one way.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Your team's biggest strength is through the middle. And it's where I have GOATs in Rijkaard and Edwards to match your names. And a proven CB pair. It's going to be a congested area with opportunity far and few in-between.

My strengths play better to your weaknesses. Azpi-Alves is a defensively weak flank. And they're facing the best LW of all time! Best will have more opportunities this game than anyone else.

 

[Himannv]

* I don't think giving him a more defensive role than Alves is really necessary, tbh - the setup is super-solid, and the wingbacks' attacking contribution is one a great thing about this team. Krol is a proper two-way player in any case.

In the games I've seen of him, when the team have possession, he's actually a useful cog in the build-up, and takes the ball out of defence and helping to control the game from the midfield. As such, I thought his positioning there adds a level of control.

 

[Himannv]

Your team's biggest strength is through the middle. And it's where I have GOATs in Rijkaard and Edwards to match your names. And a proven CB pair. It's going to be a congested area with opportunity far and few in-between.

My strengths play better to your weaknesses. Azpi-Alves is a defensively weak flank. And they're facing the best LW of all time! Best will have more opportunities this game than anyone else.

Now, I'd have agreed if you still had Desailly - but you don't. Rijkaard and Edwards have to deal with Baggio, Eusebio, Vieira, and Bonhof. I mean, even if Platini helps out, this is a bit too much to stop them. If you read the OP, I have detailed how Baggio and Seeler will draw players to them and create space for Eusebio to run into. As you said earlier in the QF stage - Eusebio is at his best running in from the deep from the inside right flank and that's exactly what he'd be doing here. Carvalho and Terry are a nice pairing but are they really good enough to stop Eusebio here with Seeler buzzing around them as well?

Regarding your other point - in the defensive phase, Azpi Alves, and sometimes Bonhof (who is on that side) will have enough to stop Best in my view. Alves is no mug at defending and even did a good job against Cristiano. I don't see many defensive issues in my team if truth be told. Kohler is the best defender on the pitch and Godin is the second best one - and they're both on my team in a back 5 with defensive setup that is orderly and functional from a counter attacking perspective.

 

[Himannv]

What's up with Cohen's peak? 1967 to 1967?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What's up with Cohen's peak? 1967 to 1967?

It's a typo I keep forgetting to fix. 1964-67 iirc.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What is Godin's role here? Is he a classic sweeper like Picchi, last man standing? Or is he a libero like Sammer? First man to tackle?

I just don't see him fit either role. For me your team is missing a libero, someone who can step out and for base of midfield giving it balance and shape and your midfielders comfort to operate two ways.

In a purely defensive sense, the weakest players are Azpi-Alves.

And you don't really want Bonhof drifting wide. A quick pass and Platini will be left one on one. Not ideal for you at all.

 

[Synco]

In the games I've seen of him, when the team have possession, he's actually a useful cog in the build-up, and takes the ball out of defence and helping to control the game from the midfield. As such, I thought his positioning there adds a level of control.

Yeah, I saw him wandering around a lot in that Ajax team. One game I remember him popping up at LB, LW, libero, CM, RB, RW. That said, the team was designed around constant interchanges.

He'd be the perfect central defender for your team imo, but since there's only one of him, I think it's right to put him at LWB. I'll wait for other opinions.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Himannv if I were you I'd swap Kohler and Godin. Kohler was a stopper(best in his position as well), but he had pretty neat distribution and was I'd say very good with the ball. Out of the three defenders he's easily your best bet as a sweeper.

Very good teams from both, well done. This is going to be pretty tight.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Yeah, I saw him wandering around a lot in that Ajax team. One game I remember him popping up at LB, LW, libero, CM, RB, RW. That said, the team was designed around constant interchanges.

He'd be the perfect central defender for your team imo, but since there's only one of him, I think it's right to put him at LWB. I'll wait for other opinions.

Even when he was playing LB, he wasn't your usual hugging the flank player. He's more like Breitner or Junior and tends to cut in centrally before approaching the box. Shunting him out wide to provide width isn't really his best or or what he was good at. Both positionally and tactically, Krol is being played out of sorts.

 

[harms]

Considering player fit, Godin isn't a back 3 sweeper. He lacks the pace and mobility.

Usually in a back 3 defensive sweeper (and Godin is clearly not a libero) does the least amount of running compared to his partners — and probably compared to a regular back 4 sweeper/covering defender as well.

you've multiple suboptimal players which will weaken the defence overall.

 

[Synco]

Even when he was playing LB, he wasn't your usual hugging the flank player. He's more like Breitner or Junior and tends to cut in centrally before approaching the box. Shunting him out wide to provide width isn't really his best or or what he was good at. Both positionally and tactically, Krol is being played out of sorts.

Hm, from what I saw he was versatile in terms of wing play. He was naturally right-footed, but I've seen him whip in proper left-footed crosses too. I think he can play that role well.

So I don't see a problem in terms of width (the mobile front three and Bonhof may drift wide as well), but I also think your team has a bit of a natural advantage on the flanks, formation-wise.

 

[Himannv]

What is Godin's role here? Is he a classic sweeper like Picchi, last man standing? Or is he a libero like Sammer? First man to tackle?

I just don't see him fit either role. For me your team is missing a libero, someone who can step out and for base of midfield giving it balance and shape and your midfielders comfort to operate two ways.

In a purely defensive sense, the weakest players are Azpi-Alves.

And you don't really want Bonhof drifting wide. A quick pass and Platini will be left one on one. Not ideal for you at all.

If you're talking about a sweeper or libero as in what you'd find in cattenacio like a Picci or perhaps a more attacking one like Beckenbauer, then such a role doesn't really exist like-for-like in a modern defensive system. This is a more modern defensive structure where all CBs are ok on the ball while also being good defenders first. It's like a back 3 you'd see nowadays basically.

If you're asking if Godin will be the deepest defender, when in possession then the answer is yes. It's a little bit like the typical reverse pivot that Man City use, although I don't expect it to be as attacking as that as this is a more defensive setup that relies more on the counter. Here's a picture for reference:

If you're talking about the defensive phase, they'd typically be positioned in a line for the offside trap and the one who steps out to meet the ball is the one closest to the attack. Let's take this image here:

The player who steps out in the above scenario to meet the ball is the one in the center, while the others cover. Same concept applies if the attack is coming from a flank - say if it's the right flank the CB on that side will step up.

 

[Himannv]

No other opinions on this post? Is it just me who feels this way about that pairing?

 

[Himannv]

It's late so I'm off to bed, but will drop in tomorrow with some posts. Regardless of the outcome here, I'd like to highlight how useful a couple of my players were throughout this draft. They were fortunately never injured and very versatile in terms of the positions they could cover in my various teams.

 

[Synco]

No other opinions on this post? Is it just me who feels this way about that pairing?

I only saw a couple of games with Best, but it's hard for me to conciliate them with this Charlton quote. At least when it's taken for absolute. Some situations yes, but he also looked like a team player, and imo he had a good passing game/timing. He was also looking for crosses a lot. So I defer to others who may have a more complete picture, but so far I don't see a real problem beyond the inevitable GOAT-fest surrealism of draft games.

 

[harms]

No other opinions on this post? Is it just me who feels this way about that pairing?

They'd perform well together, but I wouldn't say that it's a dream pairing. In fact, I don't think that Platini's capabilities were used to its fullest in this draft.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

No other opinions on this post? Is it just me who feels this way about that pairing?

I wouldnt say Best was more of a ball hog then any other winger, obviously there is a case that Platini would prefer someone that plays more of the ball but then we can say the same thing about every winger n10 combo. Its not a great partnership but i wouldnt say its a bad one. As for Charlton quote, Best said the same thing about his long shoots

 

[Synco]

They'd perform well together, but I wouldn't say that it's a dream pairing. In fact, I don't think that Platini's capabilities were used to its fullest in this draft.

What would you have liked to see?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Mismatch between Formation and Tactics:

Possession: That front 3 of Himann's is straight out of a pyramid/4231. This formation emphasizes the strength through the middle and helps in possession.......which is completely opposite of the counterattacking style he's playing here. His formation and tactics don't really gel well. If any, it's his wingbacks who'd be caught high up in my counter giving my swift wingers direct runs at his defence.

Actual counters: The way counter works is so you catch the opponent out of position and exploit that. In here, when he gets the ball, his front trio will be running straight into Rijkaard/Edwards. How does running into a congested area make for a effective counter? If the plan is the use wingbacks and cross, then it's just a waste of the 2 AMs in there. His easiest way is to pass out wide to wingbacks to bring it forward and cross. That is completely off sync with having this many playmakers in the middle!

Also the lack of a effective playmaker from the deep will hamper the counter tactics. There's no one to make that long cross or make that incisive pass from the deep. No vision or creativity to start the counter!

Eusebio vs Alves - Now Alves's at his peak was excellent in bringing the ball from the deep. Pace, stamina, good crossing.....exactly the same traits as Eusebio. those runs from midfield to Inside Right is trademark Eusebio, but here he has to share with Alves! In a back 4 it'd work well, but with a back 5 dedicated wingback...they don't complement each other at all.

Overall, the team would not function well at all.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think Edgar is overstating the problems with Himann's setup. Counter attacking 352 doesn't lack width particularly especially as Baggio and Eusebio are decent wide so it won't be long until Krol and Alves are in support. The issue with Himann is a lack of a great passer from deep. This is crucial to defending deep and playing on the counter. I just don't see Himann getting the ball forward quickly or well enough to cause enough problems on the counter.

On the other hand I think that front can get at Himann's defence especially on Best's side. Now Best isn't perfect for Platini but I think it will work well enough especially as Littbarski and Kempes are relatively selfless hard workers.

Edgar wins it

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Think the lack of deep playmaker is overblown in himanns team, i mean he has Krol and Dani Alves in the team, do they offer nothing? Both are fantastic for both slow and quick transition to the next third of the pitch.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Think the lack of deep playmaker is overblown in himanns team, i mean he has Krol and Dani Alves in the team, do they offer nothing? Both are fantastic for both slow and quick transition to the next third of the pitch.

I'm saying they are the best option to get ball forward and cross in. Why need 2 AMs though? Plus how does that align with Baggio being the main ball carrier forward in OP?

 

[Synco]

Mismatch between Formation and Tactics:

Possession: That front 3 of Himann's is straight out of a pyramid/4231. This formation emphasizes the strength through the middle and helps in possession.......which is completely opposite of the counterattacking style he's playing here. His formation and tactics don't really gel well. If any, it's his wingbacks who'd be caught high up in my counter giving my swift wingers direct runs at his defence.

Actual counters: The way counter works is so you catch the opponent out of position and exploit that. In here, when he gets the ball, his front trio will be running straight into Rijkaard/Edwards. How does running into a congested area make for a effective counter? If the plan is the use wingbacks and cross, then it's just a waste of the 2 AMs in there. His easiest way is to pass out wide to wingbacks to bring it forward and cross. That is completely off sync with having this many playmakers in the middle!

Also the lack of a effective playmaker from the deep will hamper the counter tactics. There's no one to make that long cross or make that incisive pass from the deep. No vision or creativity to start the counter!

Eusebio vs Alves - Now Alves's at his peak was excellent in bringing the ball from the deep. Pace, stamina, good crossing.....exactly the same traits as Eusebio. those runs from midfield to Inside Right is trademark Eusebio, but here he has to share with Alves! In a back 4 it'd work well, but with a back 5 dedicated wingback...they don't complement each other at all.

Overall, the team would not function well at all.

I think you see Himann's team as too static. With that front three, actual positioning will not be as narrow as the formation graphic looks. I expect all three to interchange, go wide, etc.

Also, Dani Alves often played like a real winger for Barca. Like on Krol's side, I don't think there'd be an issue with width.

 

[Isotope]

For years, Vieira was Arsenal "playmaker". His long passes to Henry was quite famous back then.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Think the lack of deep playmaker is overblown in himanns team, i mean he has Krol and Dani Alves in the team, do they offer nothing? Both are fantastic for both slow and quick transition to the next third of the pitch.

Esp the Sevilla version of Dani Alves who showed that he was quite a brilliant playmaking RB. Not much needs to be said about Krol in this regard, but perhaps more credit needs to be given to Baggio's playmaking skills. I was always under the impression that he was a creative goalscoring forward, but he was definitely capable of dropping deep and playmaking, and he frequently did just that. In fact during a fair portion of his time at Juve (except when Sousa arrived) and at Inter, he was the chief playmaker of the side.

Would it be better if one of the CBs or CMs was a playmaker? Yes definitely, given that it's a back 5 set up but there's definitely more than enough creative and playmaking prowess in Himannv's side imo.

 

[Synco]

Very hard to decide. I see a few advantages on each side, but not great ones. Simply two well constructed teams.