Only Fools and Horses Draft SF - Harms vs Edgar

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team Harms

Tactics

My inspiration is one of the most iconic teams of the decade – Chilean national team of the 2010’s. Its foundations were laid by Marselo Bielsa, who had transformed a traditionally run-of-the-mill, defensive and physical side into a modern proactive high-pressing attacking unit that punched above their weight so consistently that we’ve had to reevaluate our scales. He insisted upon an alarmingly high defensive line, where he often played converted midfielders. Bielsa left them after the 2010 World Cup, when they were eliminated by Brazil, but the revolution continued (after a short horrific break by the name of Claudio Borghi) until finally the team had reached its peak under Jorge Sampaoli – performing admirably in 2014 World Cup (essentially ending Spain’s dominance of world football after three straight successes) and winning 2 Copa Americas in a row, in 2015 and 2016, denying Lionel Messi his dream of international success in 2 consecutive finals.

Sampaoli was more tactically flexible than Bielsa, which eventually led to better results:

• He used a 4-3-3 with a false nine, 3-4-1-2 and 3-5-2 at World Cup 2014
• Whereas Bielsa insisted on a front three, Sampaoli tended to play Sanchez and Vargas as an ultra-mobile front two, starting in wide positions and making darts into the channels. When combined with a creative No 10/false 9 in Valdivia, who was perhaps Chile’s best performer in 2015, it made for an incredible spectacle

Thoughts on the opponent

Edgar's team looks to be enormously physical and quite competent on the ball, but overall I doubt that this is the best set up for his star player Platini. Unless he pulls something out of his hat, he'd have issues with the lack of width as well as a slight overlap in roles of his central midfielders. Everything would be focused on Platini – whenever he does manage to perform at his best of he doesn't.

In focus

Paul McGrath. Bryan Robson had to miss out on the semi-finals on 1983/84 Cup Winners Cup after his historical performance at Camp Nou – while Manchester United had to face arguably an even greater opponent, Trapattoni's Juventus with Platini & co at the height of their powers. Paul McGrath had to step up – United's midfield would've been overran by Platini, Tardelli, Boniek & Bonini in the middle otherwise, so he was moved further forward. His Roy of the Rovers performances over the two semi-finals were the stuff of legends – somehow he was able to keep tabs on Juve's creative players as well as providing quality passes and attacking runs from time to time – thankfully, @Joga Bonito had documented that well:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/classic-players-paul-mcgrath-le-god.430204/#post-21107199

Bobby Murdoch. I can't stress enough how consistently great he was over the second half of the 60's and early 70's. He had dominated West Germany with Beckenbauer & Overath, United with the whole Trinity present & even the cocky Bremner - Giles Leeds United in the 1970. I'll post some more on him since I jumped right into the rabbit hole of old match-reports and newspaper articles. He had always stepped up in big games as well.

Gary Medel. Before posting on point, I'd love to quote ESPN's article on him from 2014 World Cup preview as I found that description absolutely hilarious.

Medel was one of the key players for that Chile side – mostly playing in defense, despite being a natural midfielder. His performances in the 2015 & 2016 finals were quite outstanding, especially in 2015. To quote Michael Cox, probably the best tactical journalist there is:


Michael Laudrup. He plays a hybrid false 9/number 10 role of Jorge Valdivia and you couldn't ask for a better tactical fit (and, obviously, an insane individual upgrade in quality). As Jonathan Wilson wrote in his book Inverting the Pyramid

In terms of his role Laudrup was perhaps the forerunner of Lionel Messi: the term ‘false nine’ wasn’t in common usage then but that was essentially what he was

Team Edgar

Formation: 4-3-1-2. Solid defensively with a strong spine providing a stellar platform for Platini and forwards to shine.

Defence:

+ Gary Bailey - one of United's best keepers in mid-80s. Phenomenal talent who filled the big shoes left by Alex Stepney!
+ Proven complementary central defensive duo in Terry / Carvalho.
+ Evra and Cohen well suited to provide width and have operated in teams without traditional/good wide players.
+ Monster Defensive shield in Desailly, Rijkaard and Edwards.

Offence:

+ Great platform for Platini and surrounded by talent who can enhance his game.
+ All GOAT midfield that will dominate any opponent! Dynamic Edwards & Rijkaard are an incomparable midfield engine providing ample support to attack.
+ Battering rams of CF's in Kempes and Drogba. Powerful, dynamic, complete CF's able to score and provide assists.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@harms @Edgar Allan Pillow good luck

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good luck @harms .

 

[Himannv]

Cannot see the second image for some reason @Šjor Bepo

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@harms why Chislenko? He for me always looked like a proper right mid/winger. Even if you include his goalscoring spree for national team i dont think you can argue a 3 year peak based on that so does he have more and what does he offer in this setup

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Cannot see the second image for some reason @Šjor Bepo

dont know, i can see it

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Cannot see the second image for some reason @Šjor Bepo

Here you go. Can you see this?

 

[Physiocrat]

First impression - Edgar has the most frightening midfield three I have seen drafted. Mourinho would be proud of those three. That said it lacks a little going forward I think.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Edgar, you have outdone yourself. I voted 1 minute after the thread was created without even reading the OPs. I am telling you now, if you replace Kempes in the final (if you do win this), I will vote against you.

 

[Enigma_87]

First impression - Edgar has the most frightening midfield three I have seen drafted. Mourinho would be proud of those three. That said it lacks a little going forward I think.

Kempes, Platini and Drogba really has it all - pace, strength and a great advanced playmaker to find space.

He can improve his defence, but midfield / attack so far is spot on for me.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

First impression - Edgar has the most frightening midfield three I have seen drafted. Mourinho would be proud of those three. That said it lacks a little going forward I think.

Rijkaard is a popular pick and class player...so always good to enjoy his highlights again. Both for Ajax where he was ahead of a back 3 and deepest DM and in midfield 2 for Milan, look how often he pops up in/around the box. Scored 47 goals for Ajax to boot too. A proper 2 way player and quite good at arriving in box late. His driving runs from the deep is a constant feature of his games.

Big Dunk on other hand offers lot more passing from the deep. Not much footage available, but he certainly isn't afraid to lob one over the top directly to the forwards if that's the easiest route available. Physically dominant, he can drive up the ball and spring over the defence with a simple pass supplementing and supporting Platini.

Between Rijkaard and Big Dunc, I have both enough workrate and passing ability to drive up the ball consistently.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

what are people thought on Drogba in a 2 striker formation, for some reason i dont think he would be as good as a lone man

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Edgar Allan Pillow anything on Cohen offensive ability? If he isnt a great outlet in the attacking phase that right side is a big problem.

 

[Enigma_87]

what are people thought on Drogba in a 2 striker formation, for some reason i dont think he would be as good as a lone man

Depends on his partner to me. With Kempes, however, I don't see much issue as the latter is likely to occupy the left channel and stretch the play, whilst Drogba is most likely to be central, which is his best and also his strength to hold off defenders, get to the first ball when it's driven up field will come to the fore.

If his partner in crime was a more of a poacher, or someone who would occupy the same zone, I'd agree with you.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Depends on his partner to me. With Kempes, however, I don't see much issue as the latter is likely to occupy the left channel and stretch the play, whilst Drogba is most likely to be central, which is his best and also his strength to hold off defenders, get to the first ball when it's driven up field will come to the fore.

If his partner in crime was a more of a poacher, or someone who would occupy the same zone, I'd agree with you.

true, Kempes is a nice fit

 

[harms]

@harms why Chislenko? He for me always looked like a proper right mid/winger. Even if you include his goalscoring spree for national team i dont think you can argue a 3 year peak based on that so does he have more and what does he offer in this setup

Pressing, ball-carrying, runs, an ability to move out wide and centrally. He also would always keep Evra entertained and this is Edgar’s weakest spot (he needs both of his fullbacks to attack quite often; Cohen especially is not really ready to do that in a modern way against such a set up).

 

[harms]

I can understand the score, that midfield looks frightening as hell. Tbf once I’ve lost Law there was hardly any chance for me of winning this.

I still genuinely think that Edgar’s side isn’t going to work seamlessly. Cohen isn’t going to cut it offensively from what I’ve seen, Evra always played better with a winger ahead of him and his crossing was always a bit off for someone with such outstanding technical ability (he was brilliant at overlapping and providing a one-two option for the likes of Cristiano/Nani etc.).

It’s nice to see Rijkaard and Edward being used more offensively, but I doubt that all three of them (Desailly included) are the most complimentary set up for Platini.

The enormous potential in terms of aerial goals is hardly going to be used there as well.

 

[harms]

@harms why Chislenko? He for me always looked like a proper right mid/winger. Even if you include his goalscoring spree for national team i dont think you can argue a 3 year peak based on that so does he have more and what does he offer in this setup

The beauty of him was in that he always had it in him to play centrally – and made those runs often (and was known as an unconventional option in contrast to Metreveli/Meskhi who were traditional outside right/lefts). But it only clicked once USSR got a top creative player up front in Streltsov, the rest of our attackers were too one-dimensional. That’s why I love him so much – he was a player that had perfect abilities to play in very different roles, sadly, in earlier days he was mostly criticized for leaving his position because of the more conventional school of training thought.

He had worked well with Ivanov (another creative forward) by the way, even though their peaks haven’t aligned. In 1962 World Cup in 4 games Ivanov had scored 4 goals and Chislenko had scored another 2 (the only traditional number 9, Ponedelnik, had scored 2 as well). So Chislenko’s runs on Laudrup’s through-balls

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I can understand the score, that midfield looks frightening as hell. Tbf once I’ve lost Law there was hardly any chance for me of winning this.

I still genuinely think that Edgar’s side isn’t going to work seamlessly. Cohen isn’t going to cut it offensively from what I’ve seen, Evra always played better with a winger ahead of him and his crossing was always a bit off for someone with such outstanding technical ability (he was brilliant at overlapping and providing a one-two option for the likes of Cristiano/Nani etc.).

It’s nice to see Rijkaard and Edward being used more offensively, but I doubt that all three of them (Desailly included) are the most complimentary set up for Platini.

The enormous potential in terms of aerial goals is hardly going to be used there as well.

I think the team has Jose written all over it. Just enough goals in Kempes, Drogba and Platini to win most games 1-0 on the counters

 

[harms]

I think the team has Jose written all over it. Just enough goals in Kempes, Drogba and Platini to win most games 1-0 on the counters

Yeah, it’s a very Jose-esque set up. I’m not sure that if McGrath plays well they can score that goal though. I also don’t seem to rate Kempes quite as high as you do though, although he’s a great fit tactically. He’s a very good player (for Valencia as well) but that WC made him a bit overrated.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

that WC made him a bit overrated.

And rightly so. Involved in all goals in the final. 2 goals and 1 assist. Everything went through him.

Has there been a better individual WC final performance?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Edgar Allan Pillow anything on Cohen offensive ability? If he isnt a great outlet in the attacking phase that right side is a big problem.

I was watching 1966 now England vs Uruguay. Though England seems to prefer attacking on the left (Wilson/Hunt) to support Charlton (who loved Inside Left) probably, but it is obvious that Cohen was positioned quite high up the pitch. I found him regularly dropping back to track attacks rather than start from deep and face them head on. He comes across with a couple of good crosses from the midfield. He is often seen moving up to Right Midfield as soon as England gets the ball. Interacts well with Alan Ball, Stiles and Jack Charlton down that flank. I think he'd do well enough to spring Rijkaard and provide balls to him when he makes his booming runs.

I still genuinely think that Edgar’s side isn’t going to work seamlessly.

Considering Sjor's shenanigans, I'd be surprised in any side in this draft did work seamlessly. There are aspects that certainly could be improved, but overall players fit both positionally and tactically. The strength through the middle is emphasized well and have enough out wide to not make it a weakness.

 

[harms]

have enough out wide to not make it a weakness.

Nah, certainly not with my formation.

 

[Synco]

Praises were rightly sung over Edgar's team, and I mostly agree. I'd probably have liked it more with one of Rijkaard/Desailly at CB, though. Not because Terry-Carvalho is problematic - good to see them together in a SF -, just in terms of the whole setup.

I guess I'd have liked it best with Rijkaard at CB, even. Desailly battling Laudrup/Sheva in DM, and the Dutchman (who was an incredible CB in the first place & imo well suited to harms' offense) having the option to push up in possession to complement Platini from deep.

Concerning Cohen I have to guess, but I tend to believe harms that he may not be the ideal type for this diamond formation.

Anyway, I'll probably vote for Edgar, the only thing that keeps me is that harms' entire setup (Sampaoli tactics, McGrath vs Platini, Chislenko/Cafu vs Evra) seems so damn spot on. Pity that Law is out of this game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nah, certainly not with my formation.

Talking about formations...for a F9 formation to work, you need wide forwards to stretch play.

- I certainly don't see Sheva really playing left CF or offering any tangible width down that side. He's a complete CF, so you can count on him to drift everywhere, but as a specialist left CF stretching play...it just isn't happening.
- I've watched your compilations of Chislenko. He operates centrally most of the time and when he is out wide, he almost always cuts in well ahead and approaches the box centrally. I can buy him as RM, but as Wide CF stretching the play high up the pitch, again it just isn't happening.

A recurring theme in your formation is putting players who can be deemed 'complete' and expecting them to fulfill a role that is not quite their peak version.

- Moore last game and Shesternyov this game as LCB.
- Medel as RCB. He's played DM, CB and LCB for Chile. I really can't find much of him at RCB.
- Laudrup as F9. He's been played as #10 and SS already in this draft and now he's still moved forward to F9.

Now none of the above are misplayed and still would be expected to do a good job at their positions, but are we getting the peak versions? Certainly not.

If it's one or two players shuffled slightly to accommodate the team, I won't have an issue, but when half the team is playing positions they can, but not their peak...then their collective cumulative impact would be far less than optimal.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I guess I'd have liked it best with Rijkaard at CB, even. Desailly battling Laudrup/Sheva in DM, and the Dutchman (who was an incredible CB in the first place & imo well suited to harms' offense) having the option to push up in possession to complement Platini from deep.

Sheva has faced Terry in 4 games all with NTs. He's scored 1 goal. Coincidentally Terry has 1 goal and 1 assist across the same games too! I'd say stylistically Terry/Carvalho matches very well to what Sheva offers. Defensively, Desailly is placed to squeeze space for Laudrup and Big Dunc/Rijkaard will drop back to handle McGrath/Murdoch when they venture forward.

Tactically McGrath will be caught between Platini and Big Dunk when we have the ball. Coincidentally that is also where Kempes will hover around. So there's plenty of opportunities to move the ball around McGrath here.

Concerning Cohen I have to guess, but I tend to believe harms that he may not be the ideal type for this diamond formation.

That'd be a bit ironic considering his WC winning peak was in a diamond!

only thing that keeps me is that harms' entire setup (Sampaoli tactics, McGrath vs Platini, Chislenko/Cafu vs Evra) seems so damn spot on.

I've posted my reservations in earlier post. Chile's formation relies on Vargas and Sanchez ability to attack from the wide channels. Both have played as wingers in modern sense. Here neither Chislenko nor Sheva can really replicate that. Neither will provide with that high up the pitch. Also rather than a flat back 3, Diaz used to alternate between CB and DM all through the match. That is a role, I'd reserve for players like Hierro, Desailly, Rijkaard etc. Moore can play it as he has the skills, but would it be his peak? Very arguable,

 

[Synco]

Sheva has faced Terry in 4 games all with NTs. He's scored 1 goal. Coincidentally Terry has 1 goal and 1 assist across the same games too! I'd say stylistically Terry/Carvalho matches very well to what Sheva offers. Defensively, Desailly is placed to squeeze space for Laudrup and Big Dunc/Rijkaard will drop back to handle McGrath/Murdoch when they venture forward.

It has explicitly not been a criticism of Terry/Carvalho, see the paragraph above the one you've quoted. Mainly a matter of preference on my side regarding Rijkaard, especially when Desailly is on board too.

That'd be a bit ironic considering his WC winning peak was in a diamond!

As I said, I have to guess based on what I know, and tend towards that opinion (i.e. am open for correction). Seeing your ultra-strong midfield core and relatively narrow formation, there's room for an attacking FB with winger qualities, so that would be my benchmark for "ideal".

 

[harms]

- Medel as RCB. He's played DM, CB and LCB for Chile. I really can't find much of him at RCB.

Speaks well of your effort if you haven’t even ch
He played more for them as a RCB than both as a LCB and central one combined.

Moore last game and Shesternyov this game as LCB.

Because now I need a different player centrally? Someone with superior ball-playing skills – I didn’t need that from my central defender in previous games.

Laudrup as F9. He's been played as #10 and SS already in this draft and now he's still moved forward to F9.

Is there a limit on the amount of roles that a player can play in in a certain draft? He has peaks as a number 10, as a false 9 (just for you I added Wilson’s quite – you know, the guy who wrote the most comprehensive book on history of football tactics?) and as a SS in the days of peak Danish Dynamite (his partnership with Elkjaer was mint).

I've watched your compilations of Chislenko. He operates centrally most of the time and when he is out wide, he almost always cuts in well ahead and approaches the box centrally. I can buy him as RM, but as Wide CF stretching the play high up the pitch, again it just isn't happening.

Well, I guess if you’ve seen my compilations, I’ll have to concur to your superior knowledge.

Sheva has faced Terry in 4 games all with NTs. He's scored 1 goal. Coincidentally Terry has 1 goal and 1 assist across the same games too!

Would you be so kind to provide years of those games, please? IIRC one of them was from 2004 or 2005 and the rest were from a very old Sheva. Do I even need to comment on the strength of the mighty Ukrainian national side?

certainly don't see Sheva really playing left CF or offering any tangible width down that side. He's a complete CF, so you can count on him to drift everywhere, but as a specialist left CF stretching play...it just isn't happening.

It’s not an Overmars/George’s role of Van Gaal’s Ajax and Sánchez was never a winger, he either played as a wide forward or as a number 10. There’s a reason why I’ve picked Sheva of late 90’s and not his Ballon d’Or winning version by the way, but this is the only point that I’d be willing to even begin to debate with you – it’s not an obvious choice and it certainly takes some imagination.

 

[harms]

I mean, you should rightly get through, but don’t get me started on my width when I have 2 fullbacks and 2 wide forwards and you have 2 fullbacks and Kempes

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It has explicitly not been a criticism of Terry/Carvalho, see the paragraph above the one you've quoted. Mainly a matter of preference on my side regarding Rijkaard, especially when Desailly is on board too.

As I said, I have to guess based on what I know, and tend towards that opinion (i.e. am open for correction). Seeing your ultra-strong midfield core and relatively narrow formation, there's room for an attacking FB with winger qualities, so that would be my benchmark for "ideal".

Fair enough.

Speaks well of your effort if you haven’t even ch
He played more for them as a RCB than both as a LCB and central one combined.

Yeah, found that out later. Too late to delete that part

 

[Synco]

Fair enough.

Just not to be misunderstood: I think all players would work well in your setup, including Rijkaard. But imo he's also your second best and (potentially) second most influential player, so that was the idea behind a more central role.

 

[Jim Beam]

Wow... Both absolutely great teams, but Edgar usually fecks something, so this is actually an element of surprise.

Like Chislenko role, I wanted to call harms on it when he said he choose Rashford over him and that he was more of a winger, but looking at the videos I was wrong and backed off. He is in his element as a forward from what I saw.

Damn fine diamond from Edgar though.

 

[Jim Beam]

Both absolutely great teams, but Edgar usually fecks something, so this is actually an element of surprise.

I will just put this under all strange events of year 2020.

 

[Isotope]

 

[Fortitude]

not around for a while, and Edgar creates a monster team? How very 2020!

That side is the stuff of nightmares for the opposition - how was it allowed to happen?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The feck, get a feeling I'm some kind of comedy relief for drafts! I do create good teams.... sometimes

Good team @ harms

 

[Synco]

The feck, get a feeling I'm some kind of comedy relief for drafts! I do create good teams.... sometimes

Master christmas tree virtuoso at the very least, I'd say!

 

[Jim Beam]

The feck, get a feeling I'm some kind of comedy relief for drafts! I do create good teams.... sometimes

You are brilliant. And unique. No doubt about it.