Option/replacement for Casemiro

Roboc7

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I actually believe casamiro is still as good as you can get. He has had a very long absence and needs to get fully back up to match fitness. I think there's at least another season in him. His main issue is the number of fouls and yellow cards. Hes always one tackle away from a red and a ban.
Be careful what you wish for as he has big boots to fill.
Ive just read an article of how Radcliffe cant spend big this summer due to FFP restrictions. We need to sell big before we can buy big. If we fail to qualify for champions league which is a distinct possibility then spending restrictions will be even tighter.
The whole be careful what you wish for attitude is just how the club has thought and it’s one of reasons we have been so poor. He’s played 12 league games this season and has been poor in a lot of them.,

He had to be subbed off against Luton because his issue is he is just not mobile enough to keep up with the pace of the game. The fouls and cards are the end product of that.

He had a very good run of form last season but once you factor in all the injuries, suspensions and time it seems to take him to get up to speed overall I really don’t see why anyone should be careful what they wish for here. He was a panic buy to steady the ship, he did that last season but he’s on the slide and that’s only going to get worse.
 

Adnan

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I really like the look of Onana whatever little I have seen of him hopefully United are keeping an eye on him .

As far Casemiro is concerned We should let him leave along with few others need to start building a team which can dominate physically as well as technically .
Casemiro's biggest issue is out of possession sadly and not in-possession. If he was someone that had pace and athleticism to go along with his physicality, then he'd still be a important player for us. If you look at teams like Spurs, they have a midfield two of Sarr and Bissouma who are physically and athletically gifted but I wouldn't say they're great footballers. Bissouma is a safe passer rather than a progressive passer but his ability to carry the ball and get about the pitch quickly is something that a coach with a high pressing philosophy can make use of. On top of that they bought the young CB, Van de Ven who is among the best channel defenders in the league and hence Spurs have a very strong rest defense which allows them to sacrifice defensive stability for goals in a high-line.
 

Ikon

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He had a very good run of form last season but once you factor in all the injuries, suspensions and time it seems to take him to get up to speed overall I really don’t see why anyone should be careful what they wish for here. He was a panic buy to steady the ship, he did that last season but he’s on the slide and that’s only going to get worse.
A typical Big name panic signing, coming in the wake of the De Jong debacle.
Unusually for United though, Casemiro has actually performed to a very decent standard for us, and been a very influential player.

But as per usual, there was no foresight attached to this one, a huge fee, a huge salary and a long term contract for a player the wrong side of 30, I think he still has 3 years left after this season..?
What a pity we didn't land him 3 or 4 years ago..!!
 

MadDogg

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I see this a lot about academy players. Isn’t ANY player whose transfer fee has already been amortised now ‘pure profit’? If we got 10m for Martial in Jan would it not be pure profit given we bought his 14 years ago?
I believe every time a player signs a new contract, whatever was left of his amortised value now gets spread over his new contract. So if we sign a player for £50m on a five year contract, at the end of the fourth year his value is £10m. At that point he signs a new five year contract so that £10m is spread over the new five years (£2m a year). And so on if he signed another new contract towards the end of that one. So technically a player is never 100% pure profit unless at some stage their contract has completely expired before they sign a new one, although realistically once they've been here long enough it's basically the next best thing.

Martial of course has been here long enough that it would've been close to pure profit. If we'd sold him in January his amortised value would have only been something like £0.7m (not that it was possible to sell him seeing as no club would buy him due to injuries and wage).

I'm fairly confident that that is all correct, but I'm not 100% certain so if anyone knows for sure I'd appreciate being confirmed or corrected.
 
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MadDogg

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Can Martinez play as a CDM then we sign a bigger CB or two? He has the passing and composure.
ETH played him there during his first season at Ajax, but then dropped him back into the defence after that and said that Martinez doesn't have running power to play in midfield.

If ETH felt he couldn't really do it at Ajax, it's even less likely in the PL.
 

Rozay

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I believe every time a player signs a new contract, whatever was left of his amortised value now gets spread over his new contract. So if we sign a player for £50m on a five year contract, at the end of the fourth year his value is £10m. At that point he signs a new five year contract so that £10m is spread over the new five years (£2m a year). And so on if he signed another new contract towards the end of that one. So technically a player is never 100% pure profit unless at some stage their contract has completely expired before they sign a new one, although realistically once they've been here long enough it's basically the next best thing.

Martial of course has been here long enough that it would've been close to pure profit. If we'd sold him in January his amortised value would have only been something like £0.7m (not that it was possible to sell him seeing as no club would buy him due to injuries and wage).

I'm fairly confident that that is all correct, but I'm not 100% certain so if anyone knows for sure if I'm right or wrong I'd appreciate being confirmed or corrected.
I get how the wages are included in the amortisation process, but of course, it would not matter if a player was from the academy or not, given that our academy players are not playing for free! The pure profit comment is seemingly linked to the fact that there is no transfer fee book value left to offset against any fee we receive. This is the case for any player whose initial contract has been amortised. So Martial, Lindelof, Varane (soon), Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, Shaw and ay other player who has been here beyond the 3-6 years of their initial deals.
 

Gabriel Djemba-Bebe

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Onana from Everton is also a good shout but might be too pricey?
He'll be too pricey and he's a level below what we need. It would only be worth considering if they got relegated and even then I'd prefer us to go all in for Branthwaite.
 

MadDogg

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I get how the wages are included in the amortisation process, but of course, it would not matter if a player was from the academy or not, given that our academy players are not playing for free! The pure profit comment is seemingly linked to the fact that there is no transfer fee book value left to offset against any fee we receive. This is the case for any player whose initial contract has been amortised. So Martial, Lindelof, Varane (soon), Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, Shaw and ay other player who has been here beyond the 3-6 years of their initial deals.
No, I was talking about the transfer fee, not the wages. Unless a player completely runs down his contract before signing a new one, the original transfer fee will still have some (albeit increasingly small) impact. Every time they sign a new contract, whatever their remaining book value is gets spread out over the new contract.

Player is bought for £50m and signs a five year contract, meaning they are costing the club £10m a year in regards to FFP. After three years their book value is down to £20m, and at that point they sign a new five year contract. They are now costing only £4m a year from that point forward (£20m spread out over the new five year contract). After another three years their book value is down to £8m, and they sign another new four year contract which is now costing the club 2m per year in regards to FFP. And so on. So in that example, after eight years they still have a book value of £4m even though their original contract would have ended three years ago, and we'd have to sell for over £4m for it to be positive for our FFP standing.

Obviously that's ignoring wages and bonuses, etc, so it can still be positive to sell a high wage player for less than what their remaining value is, as long as it helps get the wage bill down (so not just to give those wages straight to someone else).
 

OT_United

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We really need to avoid signing someone who's preferred position is an 8. That will restrict Kobbie's development and won't get the best out of Bruno/Mount. Essentially a Casemiro regen.
 

aeh1991

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Saw his name in the hidden gems thread but why is Teun Koopmeiners not mentioned here often? He'd complement Mainoo so well with his well-balanced style of play and stengths. He's also Dutch but strangely I haven't seen any recent links. He's one of the outstanding midfielders in Serie A and one of the few really good, press-resistant DMs out there. The anti-McTominay in terms of skills. He'd be a bit pricey but I can imagine he'd cost as similarly to Onana (unless Everton get relegated) and way less than Joao Neves. At 25 (soon 26)he is not a talent but not too old either. I haven't considered him myself for a while until finding out recently how he's been doing. Looking to hear your opinions.
 
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Svartzonker

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I really like Mats Wieffer. Big and strong, good technical ability. Good passing range and decent dribbling ability.

Dutch, 24 years old.
 

Malkovich

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Feel like Andre is an obvious option, he even replaced him in the national team. He'd also be cheapest.
 
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aeh1991

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I really like Mats Wieffer. Big and strong, good technical ability. Good passing range and decent dribbling ability.

Dutch, 24 years old.
Problem is he comes from the Dutch league. We barely have made good expefiences with players from there, aside from Licha. Koopmeiners is much more proven and has similar strengths. I'd argue a top Serie A midfielder is much more reliable than a top Eredivisie player.
 

Lash

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Problem is he comes from the Dutch league. We barely have made good expefiences with players from there, aside from Licha. Koopmeiners is much more proven and has similar strengths. I'd argue a top Serie A midfielder is much more reliable than a top Eredivisie player.
You are going to be fuming when you find out where Atalanta bought him from.
 

aeh1991

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You are going to be fuming when you find out where Atalanta bought him from.
You thought that I didn't know that? Koopmeiners also needed some adaptation time after joining Atalanta. The step from Eredivisie to EPL/United is on another level compared to Serie A/Atalanta. While Wieffer seems defensively better (statwise, although much easier league), Koopmeiners looks like the more complete player. I could see Koopmeiners getting straight into the starting 11, while Wieffer might struggle, like Amrabat.

https://medium.com/@giosmaal/mats-w...ow-playmakers-scout-report-23-24-c88555e98d7d

While this is just someone's opinion, the writer who closely watched him, claims that Wieffer is not ready for the next step yet. And I agree with him, that a player who's just in his second season for Feyenoord is not ready to join United, compared to Koopmeiners who has been a key player under Gasperini (one of the most underrated managers), currently on fourth place with Atalanta and by the way also their top scorer despite being a DM.
 
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pcaming

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We really need to avoid signing someone who's preferred position is an 8. That will restrict Kobbie's development and won't get the best out of Bruno/Mount. Essentially a Casemiro regen.
Bruno and mount are the problem. We need to build a midfield that can control games, we can’t continue this chaotic football and expect to achieve anything.
 

ArbeitervonWien

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Bruno and mount are the problem. We need to build a midfield that can control games, we can’t continue this chaotic football and expect to achieve anything.
I don't believe Bruno is the problem. Of course it depends on what style you want to play. But if you don't play extreme possession-based football, you can easily afford having a player like Bruno in the team.

It would be important to have a consistent back 4 who are able to build up from the back (having Martinez back would help, as would getting reliable replacements for Varane and Shaw). Mainoo certainly helps a lot to control the game. But he needs a partner who's not only a good 6 covering the vast space we leave open when we attack, but who is just as good at retaining possession.

I really think the defence and the defensive midfield is the problem, not Bruno. We would look a completely different team if our backline were available sometimes.
 

Redivy

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This will come down to what style of play the new administration decide to play. Ratcliffe in his interview said, " In modern football, you have to decide which path to follow and stick to it". So he knows that Ashworth, Wilcox etc will need to come up with an identity for the club.

The reason I bring this up is because the style of play will determine what type of defensive midfielder we need. There is typically three "types":

1. Destroyer: This is what most people imagine a traditional defensive mid to play like. Big, physical player who uses their strength and physical ability to shield the back four. We have been linked to Amadou Onana who would be closest to this type of midfielder.

2. Disruptor: The type of midfielder who looks like they have a third lung, your Kante type of midfielder who doesn't sit as deep as your stereotypical DM but one who covers every inch of grass on the pitch. They become a nuisance for the opposition team because they are everywhere. This is the perfect player for a team who wants to defend high up the pitch. We have been linked to Ederson from Atlanta who could be an interesting option for this role.

3. Settler: This is your possession centric DM who sits deep and is excellent at recycling possession. Not the most flashy player but crucial in a possession-based system. Jorginho played this role very well for Chelsea under Conte. Rodri is another example of this type of player (he has a lot more to his game going forward). We've been linked to Mats Wiefer from Feyenoord who plays this role.


The player we sign should be decided on the role we need. We shouldn't go from De Jong to Casemiro like we did 18 months ago. We are incredibly lucky that our young star in Mainoo is the rare type of #8 who can compliment any type of DM. But if it was up to me, I'd like to see us get a disruptor type next to Mainoo. If we sign an energetic #6, as well as bring in a better centre back partner for Martinez, then we would have the quality to play much higher up and try to suffocate teams in their own half.
 
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Paul778

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But if it was up to me, I'd like to see us get a disruptor type next to Mainoo. If we sign an energetic #6, as well as bring in a better centre back partner for Martinez, then we would have the quality to play much higher up and try to suffocate teams in their own half.
Completely. I know it's hard to say a particular area is the priority when so much work is required in so many areas but sorting out our long term defence and CDM would have so much impact to everyone else.

Right now we have Evans, Maguire and Lindelof who do not have the pace, acceleration, positioning and physicality to play a high line which leaves too much space for Casemiro (or anyone really) to cover.

Given the injuries we've had this year i think we need at least two new CBs, preferably one of which who is fast and competent enough to cover one of the FB roles too. Sell Lindelof and/or Maguire if you can get a decent fee.

Get the energetic disruptor in and that half of the field should be much improved. If would also mean that maybe Onana can start sweeping again, since that was one of the main reasons we went for him.
 

JohnnyLaw

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Saw his name in the hidden gems thread but why is Teun Koopmeiners not mentioned here often? He'd complement Mainoo so well with his well-balanced style of play and stengths. He's also Dutch but strangely I haven't seen any recent links. He's one of the outstanding midfielders in Serie A and one of the few really good, press-resistant DMs out there. The anti-McTominay in terms of skills. He'd be a bit pricey but I can imagine he'd cost as similarly to Onana (unless Everton get relegated) and way less than Joao Neves. At 25 (soon 26)he is not a talent but not too old either. I haven't considered him myself for a while until finding out recently how he's been doing. Looking to hear your opinions.
Three things.

1. He’s not the strongest ball-winner or athlete. Difficult to say wether he has the positional understanding to mitigate that considering he’s only moved further away from the DM role since joining Atalanta. I think he’s more often deployed in the furthest attacking role of their midfield actually.

2. I don’t actually think he’s genuinely press resistant. He’s no FDJ, Verratti, Busquets or even Kobbie. He just doesn’t have that balance and adequate ability to shield the ball from what I’ve seen.

3. His passing completion is a worry when you’re bringing him into a midfield that already has Fernandes in it, although I think Koopmeiners is generally a more consistant passer we need someone to bring composure to our play. I’m not sure he’s the guy to do that.
 

Lash

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You thought that I didn't know that? Koopmeiners also needed some adaptation time after joining Atalanta. The step from Eredivisie to EPL/United is on another level compared to Serie A/Atalanta. While Wieffer seems defensively better (statwise, although much easier league), Koopmeiners looks like the more complete player. I could see Koopmeiners getting straight into the starting 11, while Wieffer might struggle, like Amrabat.

https://medium.com/@giosmaal/mats-w...ow-playmakers-scout-report-23-24-c88555e98d7d

While this is just someone's opinion, the writer who closely watched him, claims that Wieffer is not ready for the next step yet. And I agree with him, that a player who's just in his second season for Feyenoord is not ready to join United, compared to Koopmeiners who has been a key player under Gasperini (one of the most underrated managers), currently on fourth place with Atalanta and by the way also their top scorer despite being a DM.
Of course, was just teasing.

I don't think the league is as important as it's made out to be, it's more their attributes and mentality, which isn't league specific. Alvarez and Fernandez came straight from Argentina with no problem. Also, Amrabaat was a good serie A midfielder.

Thanks for posting that, was a good read. I'm not entirely sold on him either for what it's worth!
 

OT_United

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Bruno and mount are the problem. We need to build a midfield that can control games, we can’t continue this chaotic football and expect to achieve anything.
In Bruno's current state yes. If they can become more disciplined, like Pep's 8's then yeah it could work.
There's an argument that the PL no longer has room for typical no10 role.
 

JohnnyLaw

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In Bruno's current state yes. If they can become more disciplined, like Pep's 8's then yeah it could work.
There's an argument that the PL no longer has room for typical no10 role.
I think together Bruno and Mount at one time are a problem, but Bruno or Mount with a solid base behind them shouldn’t be.
De Bruyne and Bruno have very similar stats, the structure behind them are very different though. If we can build a better a defensive structure with powerful centre backs and a midfielder who retains and uses the ball wisely then that can also allow Bruno to be the player he once was for us.
 

G_and_T

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Unpopular opinion, but I would love a midfield of Mount, Mainoo and Neves (from Benfica). I think that's a lot of energy, pressing, good passing and combativeness across the midfield.
 

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The whole be careful what you wish for attitude is just how the club has thought and it’s one of reasons we have been so poor. He’s played 12 league games this season and has been poor in a lot of them.,

He had to be subbed off against Luton because his issue is he is just not mobile enough to keep up with the pace of the game. The fouls and cards are the end product of that.

He had a very good run of form last season but once you factor in all the injuries, suspensions and time it seems to take him to get up to speed overall I really don’t see why anyone should be careful what they wish for here. He was a panic buy to steady the ship, he did that last season but he’s on the slide and that’s only going to get worse.
Agree with this. I’ve always loved Casemiro even since watching him on loan at Porto, but it’s obvious to anyone paying attention that he’s a step slower than he was even 18 months ago when we signed him. And even then he wasn’t at his peak anymore, which is why now you see him missing those lunges and slide tackles that he could previously get to in his sleep a few years ago.
 

MrWilliams

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Pepelu from Valencia could be a decent cheaper option as a true DM. Strong passer, over 6ft. Probably could come for under 40 mill.
Would bring much needed technical ability to our midfield. I think he’s an excellent player in the making
 

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Has anyone seen much of this guy?

Mandela Keita


This is by no means a spectacular compilation. If anything it’s just him doing simple things and I think it must be mostly the under 21’s as he only has 1 full cap from what I can see.

But he looks to me like an interesting option. He just simply does the right things and looks like he isn’t scared to fire a pass forward through the lines, Collects the ball from the keeper, does it on the half turn and looks like he has a bit of athleticism about him. Transfermrkt has him at 11 mil.

Just wondering if anyone knows more about him or has seen him play?

I quite like Onana and I do like Neves just feels like we need a bit of physicality/ Imposing athleticism which you’d get from Onana but feel like Everton will ask for way too much.
 

Teja

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Casemiro has served his purpose and his biggest issue is that he just doesn't have the athleticism to cover ground quickly in defensive transition. In the EPL it's absolutely imperative that we control the defensive transition or we will keep struggling against teams who have packed their teams with physicality and athleticism.
I agree but I think technical ability and being able to beat the first man pressuring them is becoming more and more important in the role. Liverpool got by with Fabinho for a bit but now all the top sides have very technical DMs that can control / shield the ball and find good outlets.

I wonder if we view Mainoo as this player. He showed he could do it for a bit when Casemiro and Amrabat were injured. But something like Mainoo - Mount - Bruno is too lightweight. He'll need a Kante type next to him.

I'd also like to see us try the thing Arsenal did last game (Jorginho deep and rice as an #8, so that'll be Mainoo #6 and Casemiro #8)
 

Adnan

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I agree but I think technical ability and being able to beat the first man pressuring them is becoming more and more important in the role. Liverpool got by with Fabinho for a bit but now all the top sides have very technical DMs that can control / shield the ball and find good outlets.

I wonder if we view Mainoo as this player. He showed he could do it for a bit when Casemiro and Amrabat were injured. But something like Mainoo - Mount - Bruno is too lightweight. He'll need a Kante type next to him.

I'd also like to see us try the thing Arsenal did last game (Jorginho deep and rice as an #8, so that'll be Mainoo #6 and Casemiro #8)
Technical ability and evading/resisting the first line of pressure is absolutely important and I agree it should not be ignored. But evading/resisting the first line of the press starts with the GK and then the CBs. And as far as our midfield is concerned currently, Mainoo is someone we can utilise at the base of the midfield but in the mid to long-term I'd personally want to see a more specialised DM like Alan Varela from Porto and also sign a midfielder with high duel winning potential without sacrificing on technical quality. Amadou Onana does fit the bill in that regard and also has the technical security in possession if utilised in a deeper role. But for me he's a backup #6 to a more specialised #6 and he's best utilised in a box to box role where he can cause problems for the opposition on both sides of the pitch. The only worry with him is his injuries but at 22 years of age, he's someone that absolutely raises the physical, athletic and technical ability of our current midfield imo and is a duel winning machine.


I agree that we could do something similar to what Arsenal do but it would require us to retain possesion better than we currently do, because Arsenal's CBs (Saliba, Gabriel) in tandem can thwart opposition transitions in 1v1 situations like our current pairing can't. And if we're honest, Rice is a superior player to Casemiro right now and he's also a excellent dueller. I think the role that you've marked for Casemiro is one where Amadou Onana would thrive in imo.

The most important thing is to sign the correct profile of players and not just sign young players, unknown players or experienced players just for the sake of it like some have suggested. It's about signing the correct profile of players and for God sake, please don't ignore the pace and power element with the CBs because that is something that we need to introduce in the team or else we'll carry on giving the advantage to our rivals who are doing the most obvious things when developing their teams.

So if we signed one of Ousmane Diomande, Kossounou, Todibo, Tapsoba, Danso etc for the RCB role. And one of Braithwaite, Lukeba, Lucumi etc for the LCB role then we'll be on the right track as far as CBs are concerned. And if we also add profiles like Varela and Onana to the mix in midfield then will create a good mix of physicality, athleticism and technical qualities that we currently are devoid of.
 

Teja

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Technical ability and evading/resisting the first line of pressure is absolutely important and I agree it should not be ignored. But evading/resisting the first line of the press starts with the GK and then the CBs. And as far as our midfield is concerned currently, Mainoo is someone we can utilise at the base of the midfield but in the mid to long-term I'd personally want to see a more specialised DM like Alan Varela from Porto and also sign a midfielder with high duel winning potential without sacrificing on technical quality. Amadou Onana does fit the bill in that regard and also has the technical security in possession if utilised in a deeper role. But for me he's a backup #6 to a more specialised #6 and he's best utilised in a box to box role where he can cause problems for the opposition on both sides of the pitch. The only worry with him is his injuries but at 22 years of age, he's someone that absolutely raises the physical, athletic and technical ability of our current midfield imo and is a duel winning machine.


I agree that we could do something similar to what Arsenal do but it would require us to retain possesion better than we currently do, because Arsenal's CBs (Saliba, Gabriel) in tandem can thwart opposition transitions in 1v1 situations like our current pairing can't. And if we're honest, Rice is a superior player to Casemiro right now and he's also a excellent dueller. I think the role that you've marked for Casemiro is one where Amadou Onana would thrive in imo.

The most important thing is to sign the correct profile of players and not just sign young players, unknown players or experienced players just for the sake of it like some have suggested. It's about signing the correct profile of players and for God sake, please don't ignore the pace and power element with the CBs because that is something that we need to introduce in the team or else we'll carry on giving the advantage to our rivals who are doing the most obvious things when developing their teams.

So if we signed one of Ousmane Diomande, Kossounou, Todibo, Tapsoba, Danso etc for the RCB role. And one of Braithwaite, Lukeba, Lucumi etc for the LCB role then we'll be on the right track as far as CBs are concerned. And if we also add profiles like Varela and Onana to the mix in midfield then will create a good mix of physicality, athleticism and technical qualities that we currently are devoid of.
Yup I agree about the general point about the whole back line needing to do it well. Personally I think it's partly on the coach, you have giants like Van De Ven and braindead CBs like Gabriel building up just fine so the fact that we still can't after 2 years of coaching is one of the reasons I don't want Ten Hag around anymore. Even with Varane / Martinez we weren't really successful at evading and looking competent at build up. If anything, Martinez just papers over the cracks because he's a midfielder in disguise at CB.

I was more specifically talking about this type of close control / finding an outlet but during the build up phase at #6. Mainoo could do it and we could stick him at #6 and Onana at #8 but not sure that's the best use of his skills.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oPwLhy2MyVQ

And yup, Onana + Mainoo could be interesting.
 

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All those previous years have scarred me so much that I no longer think we will sign any of the names mentioned above and instead splunk 30m on amrabaat