Slightly off topic but you’ve certainly got an eye for talent @Adnan. Why have you never considered getting your CV together and applying to work for United!? If they picked up even a fraction of your tips, we’d have been golden for years…
Oscar Zambrano
- Thread starter GreatDane
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I honestly believe if I was given the role of the recruitment chief at the club I could tailor make every single position for any playstyle a head coach would want. Having a big group of people working with me and then having the benefit of applying data analytics to the strategy in question would yield results I have no doubt. If you look at the chap who is the DoF at City, he was at City for 4 years before Guardiola arrived and he was making plenty of mistakes and only finished above a LVG led United only on goal difference. The media said that City had prepared for the arrival of Guardiola by bringing in his ex Barca colleagues, but they very obviously didn't prepare very well because it took almost half a billion £££s for Guardiola to eventually win the league.
Liverpool under Klopp have gone the pace and power route early on. Big physical CBs with pace and power with hard runners in midfield who were good positionally with functional techniques allowed Klopp to progress via his fullbacks. And with that strategy in mind where the aim was to out run, out fight the opponent by getting from A to B with minimal amount of passes with the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Van Dijk, Matip, providing the strongest rest defense in the league which allowed them to sacrifice defensive stability for goals and maintain a high tempo and intensity. Klopp's tactics are heavily reliant on pace and power and he's developed his team further since he arrived by adding a little bit more craft and guile in midfield to add more control in the build up phase.
We have to match the physical and athletic capabilities of teams like Liverpool and then we will be back competing and playing with tempo and intensity imo. I think having someone other than the Glazers in charge of the football side of the club can only help us.
Brailsford's "marginal gains" might help us close the gap on Liverpool and City's physical and athletic capabilities. Asthma cases in Manchester to rocket in next six months.
Ordonez was at IDV too, a bit later on, but he only briefly played for the first team before moving to Europe, so I didn't really get to see much of him. Caicedo played a lot more than Ordonez before getting bought, so he must've impressed at youth level. IDV gets to the U20 Copa Libertadores pretty much every time, so I'm guessing they either scouted that or the 'half the world cup' (Copa Mitad del Mundo) youth tournament that IDV puts on once a year, inviting top youth teams from all over south america. European teams participate sometimes too, incl. Real Sociedad. Will check Ordonez out.
Woop, my bad. Must've glanced at the thread title when I was typing. I meant Cristian Medina at Boca. Not the flashiest player on the list, but but he's one of the best passer and one of the best to carry the ball in the Argentinian league. Also he's starting to get pretty consistent. He's been getting better and better.
Almost put Luis Guilherme in my previous post. He'll end up in Europe for sure, but I think he needs to stay in Brazil for a bit longer. He's still mostly coming off the bench. Think he'll have more of a breakout season this year, but Palmeiras is a very good side. Comfortable running with the ball at speed, he's got a pretty good overview of the field too, so he can spot a pass when he runs in to trouble, and probably the most important thing he needed to add was withstanding tackles, tugging and physicality and he's been getting pretty good at that too. He's afforded more space in Brazil, which I think helps him a lot, but Europe-bound for sure. Don't think it'd be smart for him to go to directly to England.
I'm not a 100% sure about Marcos Leonardo, but he's got a nose for goals. Always been scoring goals throughout youth categories, and even in an absolutely woeful Santos side this year, he's kept scoring. That's the thing he's good at, but it's hard to tell if he'll still be able to produce in Europe. Think as long as he plays for a team that can produce chances, he'll come good, but if Gabigol didn't make it in Europe, and Pedro (the Flamengo one) didn't make it in Europe, then it's hard to know if Leonardo will. Santos attackers tend to get hyped because of their history, but Gabigol should've made it in Europe.
Valentín Gómez is a decent-looking defender. Carries the ball well too. Could probably do a decent job at DM too. Had a poor start to the season, but improved. Needs more time in the first team. Don't think he's ready for Europe. Might be in time.
Estevão is in a similar status to Lorran at Flamengo. Lorran has played more for the first team, and I prefer him at the moment, but I've only seen Estevão's highlights on Globo. Think we'll hear a lot more about both of them this coming season. In Brazil, Copinha a very prestigious youth tournament is played this month, lots of players make their name there. Then there's the state championships for the senior teams (Carioca for Flamengo, Paulistão for Palmeiras) where they play teams from the state and lots of young players can play with the first team, and hype tends to build from there. Those that perform in both will also get chances in the national league (Brasileirão).
Danilo is a good shout too. He was at Palmeiras at the same time as Gomes was at Flamengo. I was hoping United would sign one of them. Imagine if we put the Antony money toward getting Gomes for €20m, we'd still have €75m left over for other players. They were both so good in the Brazilian league. Palmeiras had such a good midfield at the time. It was a huge part of their success.
Just a matter of time. He'll come to Europe. Possibly this month. Lots of clubs are linked with him.
I really want him at United, but I'm not sure it'd make sense at the moment.
He's a very attacking LB, and have a fairly free role to go forward at Boca, even when he starts at LB he looks like a left winger at times. You mentioned CM, but he hardly ever plays there.
Left winger and left back are two of the positions where United have the least to worry about at the moment. But I'd love to see Garnacho & Barco together though. That would be soo good. I'd be over the moon if that happened to be honest.
But Barco can also leave a lot of space behind him. A bit like Evra tended to do. Barco's a decent defender, but not a brilliant one.
And playing like that works well when you have a solid defence behind you to cover until you track back, like Boca have, and Evra did with Rio/Vidic.
Logically we're fairly well off with Shaw, and other areas should be adressed first, but I'd love to see it happen. I rather Barco very highly.
We could find playing time for both.
As nice as that would be, why play catch-up when you can get ahead of the curve? Forget asthma, we need to be declaring cases of nerve damage across the board. Our injury crisis has given us the perfect cover for us to plow money into the physio department and take big swings. The best part is, medical costs don't count towards FSR, so nobody can say boo when Casemiro literally gallops back onto the pitch a bionic quadruPED.
I’m really impressed with Lorran and think he looks a potential top class player. He also looks like he has the attributes to develop well into a PL player, as he has the physical attributes.
Yeah, I'm very impressed with him too. Got to see him for the first team a couple of times last year in the Carioca, but hoping he gets more chances this year.
Should be room for him to get some playing time in the Brasileirão this year too. Think he still shows too much of the ball at times, his first touch needs improving if he's going to play in th PL, he can be a bit selfish in transitions, and the final playthrough/final ball decisions are a bit off, but overall there's so much to his game that looks impressive. I hope he can translate that into the Carioca and the Brasileirão this season.
Excellent write up @Uniquim. Thanks for your views on these players!
You mean that he'd prefer them or that we shouldn't act because he's not ready to contribute?
If we don't buy when these players are just raw potential, we'll always end up paying through the nose and have no more guaranteed success (Sancho, Antony).
I think he could prefer those clubs due to possible early integration into the first team in the EPL, under less less media scrutiny.
I am amazed that we haven't gone the tried and tested route of buying young talent and farming them out on loans where they can play and develop until ready to contribute or be sold.
We can offer them better deals, exposure + the chance to play.
But because we don't have a good track record of doing that, I agree with you.
Is he an international.....how would he even get a work permit??
I don't think the board of directors would allow the football personnel to adopt that strategy previously, but I think that could be about to change with Ratcliffe. I think Ratcliffe is at a point in his life where he wants to make a big difference and by all accounts will even put his own money towards progressing the development of the football teams. That will then give the football departments a greater scope to do their work because the driver of change will be the guy at the very top. The glazers didn't seem to care, but I think Ratcliffe does care and I think the next summer window has the potential to be significant for us.
It's easier to sign Non-EU players now post Brexit no? Might be imagining this.
You are right.
It's the way forward, isn't it? Players like him, Vermeeren from Antwerp and other exciting, young players who could fit in United's style of play and don't cost a fortune straight away, are hungry to proof themselves..
Do you know what are the estimated budget we may have in the summer, obviously not including any sales? How do we stand on FFP? Ratcliffe can only contribute £90m, right?
@Messier1994, can you help us with this?
120-150m give or take without sales .
@Messier1994 will be best placed to answer that due to his background in Sports Law. He tweeted the below information a couple of weeks ago.
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A young exciting player and Utd interested in him. What could go wrong?
Thanks.
Do you know how that could be spread across wages and cost amortisation for 4 year contracts on average?
Would it mean we could buy, let's say, 7 players, for £50m, each on £150k/week (£7.8m/year)?
In my simple mind, 7 x £50m = £350m. Spread over 4 years = £87.5m
+
7 x £150k x 52 = £54.6m
=
£142.1m
Does this make sense?
@Adnan @Messier1994
By my math, we will in principle not be limited by FFP next summer even if we miss the CL. I.e. we could theoretically spend app. 400-500m without player sales.
The FFP limiting factor is the new Squad Cost Rule which limit us to spend more than 80% of revenue on our squad. But if we buy players for 400m, we surely also will get rid of contracts.
With all this said — we don’t have the cashflow to pay 500m plus for new signings. Ie we are allowed to make those signings, but to pay for them we have to use the credit line.
https://x.com/swedishrumble/status/1743696556308521400?s=46
The FFP limiting factor is the new Squad Cost Rule which limit us to spend more than 80% of revenue on our squad. But if we buy players for 400m, we surely also will get rid of contracts.
With all this said — we don’t have the cashflow to pay 500m plus for new signings. Ie we are allowed to make those signings, but to pay for them we have to use the credit line.
https://x.com/swedishrumble/status/1743696556308521400?s=46
Read that Bournemouth are close to signing him and loan him to a sister club. Hopefully we still have time to make this happen.
It makes more sense from the players perspective. We can’t officially make any guarantees until the new guys come in and and can tell a player exactly what they’ve planned for him. I think we need to fix the recruitment (dof- head of recruitment) and then start making these kinds of deals with a clear path to the first team under the ineos umbrella.
You need the DoF and head coach to be in-sync when it comes to providing a pathway for a young player. That is absolutely the case as things stand hence the likes of Garnacho and Mainoo have been brought into the team and are doing as well as one could hope. Our issue right now isn't a lack of a plan for young players, but rather you can't expect a head coach to develop too many inexperienced younger players without sacrificing the hear and now. Bournemouth and Brighton finishing 6th, 7th or 8th would be seen as a good to great season, but for United it's deemed nowhere near good enough.
Nah...I think some deals can be done even before fixing the backroom stuff. As long as the player rates highly on scouting reports in relation to a particular style of play and he is that cheap then we should be in position to make the move. I actually think our scouting department keeps finding gems for us....problem is managers ditching the recommendation for someone they know. Dalot, luke shaw over leighton baines, caicedo, rice over casemiro, Amad, garnacho, and even someone like wan bissaka (he was correctly rated highly for defending but also his attacking defiences where highlighted). When we signed Bruno they mentioned that he loses the ball a lot, something that has proved true in the long term. They even distanced themselves from the Amrabat deal in the summer. Even when we look at someone like martial and we just consider his output, the scouts rated him correctly, problem is he is made of glass. Basically in the long term, our scouting department has been spot on. I actually think we need the club to listen to the scouting department more than they currently do
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Nowhere have I said that we shouldn't listen to the scouts. But rather I've consistently said that a successful recruitment strategy at a club is led by their recruitment department, which in-turn works with the head coach and DoF to sign players for a particular method of play. And my previous post was about a young 19 year old midfield talent from Ecuador who is on the cusp of being a regular first team player, and will likely need assurances of first team chances for his own personal development. The scouts and the DoF can only do so much and the head coach will then make the assesment to see if he can provide those assurances for a very inexperienced player who has barely played first team football in Ecuador.
The team is coached, selected for matchdays and developed by the head coach and it's important to work alongside him to develop the team. You also have to factor in the talent we already have at the club in the academy, and to provide a hypothetical scenario, the club could deem someone like Dan Gore as someone they can develop instead of signing Zambrano. It's why it's important to have a DoF, because he will connect the different football departments that will then make it a more streamlined approach. The first team scouts won't know a lot about what is developing in the academy and hence the DoF will connect the academy director (Nick Cox) with the heads of recruitment to better plan a recruitment strategy for the first team. Why sign a young developmental type midfielder if you already have a player in the academy reserves who you feel has the potential to make it with time and patience. Not that I'm saying that is the case, but it's not only a case of the scouts have said so, then we must sign the player, no. If the scouts have brought up a player at first team level, then the DoF has to sit both the academy director and first team chief scout to decide if it's better to develop from within or buy for multi-millions. If we decided to develop from within, then the money saved could be allocated to other positions.
I would take Luke Shaw over Leighton Baines. Shaw was the scout signing and Baines was a player Moyes wanted.
And it was never a case of signing Casemiro over Rice or Caicedo. United after finishing 6th were given a transfer budget of £120m going into the summer window of 2022, and the two guys in charge of recruitment were sacked on the eve of that transfer window. So this wasn't a case of Erik ten Hag dictating recruitment, but rather him having to assist recruitment until replacements were sought within the club's recruitment department. And the budget only changed in the last few weeks of the transfer window after back to back defeats to Brighton and Brentford, which heaped pressure on Joel Glazer to dip into the club's revolving credit facility. Man Utd's football personnel had walked away from the Antony deal in June (reported by Brazilian journo close to Antony) due to the cost going over £40m. Joel Glazer then went ahead and got the deal done, to relieve pressure upon himself.
Amad Diallo and Garnacho are John Murtough signings, and to me it was obvious he was trying to push both players to ten Hag until we lost back to back games against Brighton and Brentford and Joel Glazer dipped into the revolving credit facility. And the Casemiro signing was fine because he was a alternative to Frenkie de Jong, and eventhough they were different players, Murtough had Kobbie Mainoo a season away from fulfilling the role. So the move was calculated, but the issue a lot of fans have is that they had no idea about what was developing in the academy. Man Utd couldn't sign Rice or Caicedo in the summer window of 2022, with a budget of £120m. And when the budget went over £200m in the last few weeks of the window, we definitely couldn't sign either player and the blame squarely lies with the owners and it's impossible to plan a transfer window with such uncertainty with budgets on top of having sacked the head scouts on the eve of that transfer window.
Bruno was a signing made by Solskjaer along with various other players. And the decisions made at that time are dictating how we recruit currently imo. We can't just get rid of half the squad, and it will take some time before we see some stability in our play due to the personnel occupying positions on the pitch whi thrive off chaos. But I don't believe Bruno is a big problem at this stage and raising the physical and athletic level of the team could benefit him.
The summer window of 2023 was a scout driven window imo, with ten Hag providing options in case we fail to land our targets. Ten Hag's targets were Onana and Amrabat, but only if we were unable to sign Maignan and Amadou Onana. Maignan proved too costly and when we approached Everton for Amadou Onana with the stumbling block being the transfer fee, and then we made a attempt to loan in Yusuf Fofana from Monaco and were turned down. We then took up the option to sign Amrabat on loan.
So with Jose Mayorga and Simon Wells in charge of recruitment. They put forth the players below according to tier 1 sources, and we promoted several youngsters to the first team.
GKs - Maignan, Verbruggen
CBs - Kim Min Jae, Todibo
CM - Amadou Onana, Yusuf Fofana
AM - Mason Mount
ST - Rasmus Hojlund
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