Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

[elmo]

I got criticised last year for saying that we had a lousy defense because my main point was that a good defense doesn't leak a goal a game and idiots kept pointing that we had the third best defense in the league which meant that we had a good one.

Let's actually get defenders based on how good they can defend first rather than how well they can play the ball out. Fix the defense and it'll allow us to play a midfield which doesn't need both Fred and Scott playing at the same time which would improve us in midfield and attack as well.

 

[elmo]

Not sure if you've noticed, but we build out from the back now, which requires technically strong centre-backs, i.e., not Smalling. If we were still hoofing the ball to Fellaini, Zlatan, or Lukaku, Smalling would be perfectly... acceptable as a squad option.

And yet our best attacking outlet from defense is still passing it to Shaw and letting him drive down the flank.

Our playing out from the back is overrated because 90% of our centrebacks' passing is 5m passes to each other or Fred and De Gea. It doesn't take that much technical ability to do their passes.

 

[K Stand Knut]

Proper proper shit defence.

I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.

Well funny!!! Cheered my mood no end.

How old are you? I’ll predict under 20

 

[Isotope]

Most fans want to see us play a attacking brand of football. But to play a attacking brand of football, a team needs to create a defensive balance on the turn-over when players are caught up field. The two CBs and the most defensive minded midfielder will then be expected to thwart attacks in 1v1 scenarios. And our starting CBs aren't good enough to defend the channels without the fullbacks in attendance or the two midfielders for support. So what's ended up happening is that we look solid defensively if we're defending in numbers but look vulnerable when attempting to sacrifice defensive stability for goals, where we play a more expansive game with players going forward in numbers.

We don't need the new CB to pass like Pirlo but rather someone who is good on the ball, both at passing and dribbling. But the new CB must be strong at defending the channel and at defending deep. Our league also tests a CB physically and aerially like no other league in Europe, so signing someone short at CB is a big no IMO.

Maguire is a fellow Yorkshire man and I'd love to see him do well. But if I'm honest, apart from his ability aerially he's bang average. And people know my thoughts on Lindelof for a few years now which haven't changed. But I hope we get the CB that Ole wants in the summer window, and until then I look forward to seeing the outlook change game by game with players going from the worst to the best with each passing game-week in the eyes of the fans.

We just need a CB with Bailly's profile (except fitness level). If he's a beast on heading, that's even better.

 

[Red & White]

It looks like we’re now great at going forward but awful at the back. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that there’s only a few games this season where we’ve won comfortably, we concede a lot of goals.

Let’s face it, this defence and goalkeeper isn’t that bad on paper and is conceding way more goals than the sum of its parts should and that comes down to what happens on the training pitch. Yes, we need more pace in the middle of defence, which would improve it, as we’ve seen when Bailly has played recently. The lack of pace was highlighted in the game last night with DCL against our CB’s, however, they seemed to cope with it on the whole and it was a DDG howler that gifted them the first goal, despite Maguire being beaten for pace on the left.

The biggest issue, for me, with this defence is they’re so poor at set pieces and that includes the goalkeeper. How many times have we conceded from set plays this season? I can’t be bothered to look it up but we’ll be right up there with the worst in the league. This is down to what’s done on the training pitch. Every time we concede a corner or free kick the fans are nervous, I know I’m not alone. When Tuanzebe thought it would be a great idea to lunge at their player on the half way line and give them a last second chance to get a goal, I started to walk to the door and watch the game from the doorway as I was certain what was coming and they didn’t fail to live up to expectations.

Basic things like holding the same line?! AWB was guilty of it a couple of times in the first half and Maguire did it in the 95th minute.

 

[Adnan]

We just need a CB with Bailly's profile (except fitness level). If he's a beast on heading, that's even better.

I agree, Bailly without the rashness and with added aerial ability is what this team is yearning for. But Bailly for me needs to play more often in the current season.

 

[Isotope]

I agree, Bailly without the rashness and with added aerial ability is what this team is yearning for. But Bailly for me needs to play more often in the current season.

I'd sell Bailly if it's up to me. No reason to have squad player that isn't reliably fit, no matter how good he is.

 

[Lentwood]

I not a big fan of this stat. It says absolutely nothing about the qualify of chances and shots a keeper deals with.

So in response to this post I have provided some statistics for 'expected goals against', which of course DOES attempt to take into account the quality of shot a goalkeeper faces.

Now the problem with this is that it doesn't factor into account goals that were caused by problems of the goalkeepers own making. For example, 99% of people believe De Gea was at fault for Everton's first goal yesterday. However, the 'expected save' metric for that shot would be very low...because the mistake was palming a tame cross straight to Doucoure. Doucoure's shot, which was an open goal from a yard out, would have had a very high xG percentage.

Likewise, it wouldn't factor in mistakes like De Gea's cowardice at corners/free-kicks leading to goals against or goals like Everton's 3rd yesterday, where he bottles a challenge, because again, once DCL actually gets on the end of that chance, his xG will be very high from that position.

Anyway....I've explained why it's flawed but people asked for it and it still looks horrible for De Gea

GOALKEEPER	TEAM	GA	PSxG	PSxG +/-
Nick Pope	Burnley	24​	29.4​	6.4​
Alphonse Areola	Fulham	28​	33.3​	5.3​
Emiliano Martínez	Aston Villa	24​	28.3​	4.3​
Robert Sánchez	Brighton	11​	14.1​	4.1​
Bernd Leno	Arsenal	22​	22.6​	3.6​
Hugo Lloris	Tottenham	22​	23.5​	3.5​
Alisson	Liverpool	15​	18.3​	3.3​
Kasper Schmeichel	Leicester City	25​	27.1​	3.1​
Illan Meslier	Leeds United	37​	38.1​	2.1​
Sam Johnstone	West Brom	50​	48.4​	1.4​
Caoimhin Kelleher	Liverpool	1​	2.2​	1.2​
Ederson	Manchester City	12​	11.6​	0.6​
Dean Henderson	Manchester Utd	3​	3.4​	0.4​
Darren Randolph	West Ham	0​	0.4​	0.4​
Łukasz Fabiański	West Ham	28​	28.2​	0.2​
Rúnar Alex Rúnarsson	Arsenal	0​	0.1​	0.1​
Kiko Casilla	Leeds United	1​	1​	0​
Fraser Forster	Southampton	0​	0​	0​
Vicente Guaita	Crystal Palace	37​	37​	0​
Robin Olsen	Everton	6​	5.8​	-0.2​
David Button	West Brom	2​	1.7​	-0.3​
Zack Steffen	Manchester City	1​	0.6​	-0.4​
Marek Rodák	Fulham	3​	2.5​	-0.5​
Bailey Peacock-Farrell	Burnley	5​	4.4​	-0.6​
Edouard Mendy	Chelsea	14​	13.3​	-0.7​
Kepa Arrizabalaga	Chelsea	6​	4.8​	-1.2​
David de Gea	Manchester Utd	27​	23.7​	-1.3​
Willy Caballero	Chelsea	3​	1.5​	-1.5​
Karl Darlow	Newcastle Utd	38​	34.4​	-1.6​

There we have it...a Manchester United goalkeeper on £350K a week mixing it with the likes of Bailey Peacock-Farrell, David Button, Robin Olsen, Kiko Casilla and Karl Darlow. De Gea is even below Kepa!

Yesterday I was accused of being arrogant by several posters...well, OK, I get angry and can be a bit patronising when I'm frustrated...but my feelings are that I can forgive any player a mistake. The problem is with De Gea is that he has been very poor since Jose's first season. Ever since then, visually and statistically he has been one of the worst GKs in the league.

Likewise, I can forgive handling errors. What I can't forgive, and I don't think any of us should forgive, is his cowardice. Most of us on this forum would give their right arms to play for Utd (and probably still be better GKs than DDG), yet this bloke is playing week-in, week-out and costs us goal after goal by being scared of the ball, opponents and his own shadow! Unforgivable for me.

Also, just one for the Henderson 'is not the answer' posters...I'd love to know how on earth you draw that conclusion? I'm not saying Henderson IS the answer....but last season he had the best save percentage and the best performance against xG in the Premier League. This season, he has only played 3.5 games in the PL and is performing like a proper keeper based on saves/expected saves...so how anybody has enough evidence to write him off is really baffling.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

What really shocked me is that yesterday in the second half both McTominay and Fred were on the pitch shielding our back 4 and we still conceded 3.
A proper CDM and a new CB are absolutely mandatory.

 

[Hawks2008]

30 goals in 23 games is nowhere near good enough when we're in a title race and the leaders have conceded 13.

 

[MattofManchester]

So in response to this post I have provided some statistics for 'expected goals against', which of course DOES attempt to take into account the quality of shot a goalkeeper faces.

Now the problem with this is that it doesn't factor into account goals that were caused by problems of the goalkeepers own making. For example, 99% of people believe De Gea was at fault for Everton's first goal yesterday. However, the 'expected save' metric for that shot would be very low...because the mistake was palming a tame cross straight to Doucoure. Doucoure's shot, which was an open goal from a yard out, would have had a very high xG percentage.

Likewise, it wouldn't factor in mistakes like De Gea's cowardice at corners/free-kicks leading to goals against or goals like Everton's 3rd yesterday, where he bottles a challenge, because again, once DCL actually gets on the end of that chance, his xG will be very high from that position.

Anyway....I've explained why it's flawed but people asked for it and it still looks horrible for De Gea

GOALKEEPER	TEAM	GA	PSxG	PSxG +/-
Nick Pope	Burnley	24​	29.4​	6.4​
Alphonse Areola	Fulham	28​	33.3​	5.3​
Emiliano Martínez	Aston Villa	24​	28.3​	4.3​
Robert Sánchez	Brighton	11​	14.1​	4.1​
Bernd Leno	Arsenal	22​	22.6​	3.6​
Hugo Lloris	Tottenham	22​	23.5​	3.5​
Alisson	Liverpool	15​	18.3​	3.3​
Kasper Schmeichel	Leicester City	25​	27.1​	3.1​
Illan Meslier	Leeds United	37​	38.1​	2.1​
Sam Johnstone	West Brom	50​	48.4​	1.4​
Caoimhin Kelleher	Liverpool	1​	2.2​	1.2​
Ederson	Manchester City	12​	11.6​	0.6​
Dean Henderson	Manchester Utd	3​	3.4​	0.4​
Darren Randolph	West Ham	0​	0.4​	0.4​
Łukasz Fabiański	West Ham	28​	28.2​	0.2​
Rúnar Alex Rúnarsson	Arsenal	0​	0.1​	0.1​
Kiko Casilla	Leeds United	1​	1​	0​
Fraser Forster	Southampton	0​	0​	0​
Vicente Guaita	Crystal Palace	37​	37​	0​
Robin Olsen	Everton	6​	5.8​	-0.2​
David Button	West Brom	2​	1.7​	-0.3​
Zack Steffen	Manchester City	1​	0.6​	-0.4​
Marek Rodák	Fulham	3​	2.5​	-0.5​
Bailey Peacock-Farrell	Burnley	5​	4.4​	-0.6​
Edouard Mendy	Chelsea	14​	13.3​	-0.7​
Kepa Arrizabalaga	Chelsea	6​	4.8​	-1.2​
David de Gea	Manchester Utd	27​	23.7​	-1.3​
Willy Caballero	Chelsea	3​	1.5​	-1.5​
Karl Darlow	Newcastle Utd	38​	34.4​	-1.6​

There we have it...a Manchester United goalkeeper on £350K a week mixing it with the likes of Bailey Peacock-Farrell, David Button, Robin Olsen, Kiko Casilla and Karl Darlow. De Gea is even below Kepa!

Yesterday I was accused of being arrogant by several posters...well, OK, I get angry and can be a bit patronising when I'm frustrated...but my feelings are that I can forgive any player a mistake. The problem is with De Gea is that he has been very poor since Jose's first season. Ever since then, visually and statistically he has been one of the worst GKs in the league.

Likewise, I can forgive handling errors. What I can't forgive, and I don't think any of us should forgive, is his cowardice. Most of us on this forum would give their right arms to play for Utd (and probably still be better GKs than DDG), yet this bloke is playing week-in, week-out and costs us goal after goal by being scared of the ball, opponents and his own shadow! Unforgivable for me.

Also, just one for the Henderson 'is not the answer' posters...I'd love to know how on earth you draw that conclusion? I'm not saying Henderson IS the answer....but last season he had the best save percentage and the best performance against xG in the Premier League. This season, he has only played 3.5 games in the PL and is performing like a proper keeper based on saves/expected saves...so how anybody has enough evidence to write him off is really baffling.

We must be the only club that expects our goalkeeper to behave like superman day in and day out, just to avoid the topic that the defence isn't good enough.

He's been good when called upon this season, but De Gea seems to be an easy target.
I was a massive critic of him last season, and he had a few blunders this season, but nothing that says we shouldn't stick by him.

Its ironic that there's people saying sod off De Gea, but you also find a few of them saying stick by Martial. Ludicrous.

There are a litany of players I'd be looking at first before I would even think of De Gea as the weak point.

 

[captain666]

We have 2 CB's and a GK that couldn't command an army of toy soldiers,so I guess we should spend all of our summer budget on buying yet more players to protect the incompetent Maguire!

 

[Darlington Padgett]

Shaw has played really well lately but he still has the same problem he's had since he came. He leaves massive gaps and his positioning is always one step behind. AWB can only tackle and that's about it, horrible going forward and he's always running to catch up with whoever he's supposed to be marking. Maguire just loves to watch players run into the box, and him and Lindelof are just too soft. Every team is now targeting De Gea on corners and set pieces and its costing us way too many goals.
We have huge problems on defence that maybe could be fixed with a commanding CB and a RB that can actually defend and help going forward.

 

[A-man]

And yet our best attacking outlet from defense is still passing it to Shaw and letting him drive down the flank.

Our playing out from the back is overrated because 90% of our centrebacks' passing is 5m passes to each other or Fred and De Gea. It doesn't take that much technical ability to do their passes.

What teams would you say are playing out from the back?

I would say it is quite common to play around in the back line and to the DM 90% of the passes, or even more. It’s about not losing possession even under pressure, force the opponent up close to you and then when the time is, you play through them. That’s how I see it at least. Plus occasional long balls.

What really shocked me is that yesterday in the second half both McTominay and Fred were on the pitch shielding our back 4 and we still conceded 3.
A proper CDM and a new CB are absolutely mandatory.

If you look at the goals conceded vs Everton, youll see there was no protection at all from the midfield. Everton ran through without effort. No shielding.

 

[Samid]

No

 

[dwd]

Pathetic. Sick of how we start games.

 

[bosnian_red]

Why do our centerbacks stop playing and look for fouls so often? Maguire got away with it recently, but defenders should never hold on to the ball and fall easily looking for a foul. It's way too risky and often you get punished.

 

[Castia]

Embarrassing

Need 2 top quality cb’s in the summer, feck Maguire's price judge him on performances he’s not good enough.

 

[dwd]

We start every game with our heads in the clouds, I’m sorry but that’s on the management.

 

[Machine Elements]

Ole's done a brilliantly fantastic job by getting rid of Smalling, Rojo, Romero for nothing and trusting Lindelöf, Maguire and De Gea while spending £150m in transfer fees on that defence. Incredible management. Well done Ole.

 

[Delano]

I see the same thing every game. Lindelof weak as piss, Maguire two yards behind the defensive line and De Gea nervous off his line.

Does Ole not see it?

 

[czemuch]

Am i paranoid or normal keeper catches such crosses with his eyes closed?

 

[Bwuk]

I don’t rate him particularly highly but that was a foul on Lindelof.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

When a cross loops up that high, from that angle, dropping inside the six yard box, 19 out of the 20 PL goalkeepers would catch it with ease. Not ours though. Frigging rooted to his line. As usual.

 

[Based Adnan]

Sorting a keeper should be first priority. Otherwise whoever we have in defence will end up looking a lot worse than they are.

 

[Infra-red]

I see the same thing every game. Lindelof weak as piss, Maguire two yards behind the defensive line and De Gea nervous off his line.

Does Ole not see it?

No. If he did he'd start Henderson.

 

[Giggsyking]

Why do you blame the defence?
Its the fecking manager who spent hundreds of millions on the defence and still cant fecking defend against the shitiest teams in the league. Not to forget every time his precious Lindelöf is fit he is the first name on the sheat no matter how good Bailly plays.

 

[2 man midfield]

Hahahahahaha

 

[Zen86]

That goal was mainly the result of having a CB who isn’t big and isn’t strong, two of the more important attributes for a CB.

 

[2cents]

There’s really very little difference in quality among all the CBs we’ve had on our books since Rio and Vidic left.

 

[Giggsyking]

No. If he did he'd start Henderson.

And fecking send Lindelöf to the reserve.

 

[Giggs' right foot]

I don’t rate him particularly highly but that was a foul on Lindelof.

It’s just as much of a goals as Maguire’s against Burnley. Contact IS allowed when battling for a header. Just a shame Lindelöf have the physical presence of a teenage CM.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Ole's done a brilliantly fantastic job by getting rid of Smalling, Rojo, Romero for nothing and trusting Lindelöf, Maguire and De Gea while spending £150m in transfer fees on that defence. Incredible management. Well done Ole.

Wait are you trying to claim getting rid of Rojo is a bad idea?

 

[NHLYR 1878]

What's worse is Maguire and Lindelof both put more effort into waving their arms around toward the linesman after the ball was in the net rather than dealing with the cross in the first feckin place.

Not writing them off, but as a pair, they aren't at all good. They need someone more capable beside them, regardless of which of them plays.

 

[DoomSlayer]

The CBs and GK are so pathetic that I have to laugh or cry, so I choose the former.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There’s really very little difference in quality among all the CBs we’ve had on our books since Rio and Vidic left.

Maguire’s comfortably the best but the fact he’s still so much worse than Rio/Vidic speaks volumes.

 

[thegregster]

It’s just as much of a goals as Maguire’s against Burnley. Contact IS allowed when battling for a header. Just a shame Lindelöf have the physical presence of a teenage CM.

Not a hand covering someone face.

It was a clear foul.

 

[SER19]

I'd give maguire 1 more season with a new partner but lindelof should be a sub. A useful one, but a sub. That's just everything that's wrong with him summed up in one flailing moment

 

[2cents]

Maguire’s comfortably the best but the fact he’s still so much worse than Rio/Vidic speaks volumes.

Yeah he’s far closer to the rest than to those two.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Not a hand covering someone face.

It was a clear foul.

It would help if our goalie wasn't afraid of crosses or hadn't lost his shot-stopping ability in a similar way to the Space Jam movie.